48 pages of--Look what WE did!

[Reluctant Watchman]

Two interesting comments from the KSL article highlighting the $1.2B in aid:

Comment 1:
This is great - no question. But I do wish the church was 100% transparent with its finances. A yearly report with how much coming in, how much on operating expenses, how much in reserves, and how much to charitable giving.

Response 1:
That information is not anyone's business but the Church as the Church is not a publicly traded organization, but a private, not-for-profit organization. I am grateful to know my donations go to good places, but at the end of the day, it is a donation, with no strings attached, and I donate because it is what I feel in my heart the Lord wants me to do.

Reply:
As a tithe-paying member, it is my business. I believe and hope that it is being used appropriately. I should be able to know.

[Robin Hood]

Si señor.

Have you understood it?

Yes, I don't agree with it in many instances.

D&C 119 is the law of tithing for the church. I'm sure you can appreciate that your agreement or otherwise with its content is irrelevant.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Have you understood it?

Yes, I don't agree with it in many instances.

D&C 119 is the law of tithing for the church. I'm sure you can appreciate that your agreement or otherwise with its content is irrelevant.

You gents feel no church tithes should go to helping the poor. I disagree.

[SantaFe]

I'm sure many of you saw the email about this tonight. The timing on this is awesome a month after considering that matter closed and general conference is fast approaching. Yay!
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... se-in-need

Reporting this to members is one thing but they published it for the world on their news outlet:

https://www.ksl.com/article/50606243/ch ... ealth-care

"As Christ’s Church, the First Presidency said in the report, the faith is simply doing what the Savior of the world would do."

Oh really? Jesus said what he would do right here:
Matthew 6
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

I don’t think Jesus was kidding when he said this. The church knows scriptures better than I but publishing this for the world on KSL flies in the face of His words. Jesus didn’t add any qualifiers for when its ok to do this but a church with His name in it should take those scriptures seriously.

“As His followers, we seek to love God and our neighbors throughout the world,” the First Presidency said. “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is eager to bless others and to help those in need. We are blessed to have the ability, resources, and trusted global connections to carry out this sacred responsibility, which we consider a joyful privilege.”

I wouldn’t give a dime much less $32 million to the UN. The UN can do whatever it wants after that check clears. The UN is wicked worldiness incarnate. They work evil under cover of fixing the world. They make Biden look like an innocent little puppy. Just look at the leftist and some bad conservatives who LOVE the UN and globalism in general. It is the ultimate command and control situation. The UN would offer nothing close to the US constitution if they held sway over regions like they want. Real freedom will cease in the name of eliminating poverty or saving the planet or whatever SDG they enact.

In my opinion the church should be actively against the secret combination called the UN. If Jesus comes back after they (the UN) gets what they want they would certainly fight against Him in the name of Equity or some other secular idol. Perhaps by working so closely with the UN the church hopes to usher in the 2nd coming but that sounds completely crazy. I get the allure of opening doors to nations for missionary work and humanitarian things but the most humanitarian thing we can do for the world is end the UN or at least withhold any support or cooperation. Mark my words, (pun intended) the antichrist will work for an NGO.

P.S. why didn't they just use shell corporations to hide the charitable giving and service? So they keep investments secret out of fear that donations might slow but have zero issues disobeying the direction of Christ himself "that thine alms may be in secret"? Apparently, every day is opposite day and nobody told me. Try making this point to your LDS friends and see if they become slippery as eels when faced with conflicts like this. The church of Christ should strive to live higher laws. I don't want to tear down the gospel. I want the church I still belong to to follow Him. That's all.

I think it might be an attempt at damage control; to try and publicly account for their charity in light of the bad press they got on their holdings.
I also think that it's used as a missionary tool for the nonmembers to see how service oriented the church is.

[Robin Hood]

Yes, I don't agree with it in many instances.

D&C 119 is the law of tithing for the church. I'm sure you can appreciate that your agreement or otherwise with its content is irrelevant.

You gents feel no church tithes should go to helping the poor. I disagree.

I know you do, but you don't just disagree with the gents, you appear to disagree with the Lord, the greatest gent of all.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I can see the "damned if you do, dammed if you don't" mentality here. They don't say anything... and they get blasted. They say something, and we scold them for doing it. But, as noted, the timing is important here. They got their hand caught in the cookie jar.

I do think there are ways they could publish the charitable efforts they are doing w/o making a big deal about it. In fact, they should be fully transparent in ALL financial transactions. Give members the nitty gritty if they want it in a financial audit report.

I think the reason people clamor on both sides, is because of a lack of transparency and the blatant example of financial fraud, hiding it from the members.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I know you do, but you don't just disagree with the gents, you appear to disagree with the Lord, the greatest gent of all.

Do you think these men always speak for the Lord? They don't. Per your line of reasoning, 132 is from the Lord. Every pronouncement would be "from the Lord" according to this reasoning, even the "literal godsend."

I personally believe that "the church" can evolve on policy over time.

[silverado]

Looking at thewidowsmitereport.wordpress.com, it appears that the Lutheran Church gives many many times more to charity than either the Catholic or LDS Church. LDS are at the bottom of the list.

[Robin Hood]

I know you do, but you don't just disagree with the gents, you appear to disagree with the Lord, the greatest gent of all.

Do you think these men always speak for the Lord? They don't. Per your line of reasoning, 132 is from the Lord. Every pronouncement would be "from the Lord" according to this reasoning, even the "literal godsend."

I personally believe that "the church" can evolve on policy over time.

By "these men", are you referring to Joseph Smith? He was the one who received the revelation recorded as D&C 119.

[Reluctant Watchman]

By "these men", are you referring to Joseph Smith? He was the one who received the revelation recorded as D&C 119.

I believe Joseph receive a revelation for his time, but we've gutted most of what he taught today.

I do disagree that all surplus be given to the church and its leaders.

I don't worship Joseph, he was a damn good man, but I can disagree w/ him.

[Niyr]

Two interesting comments from the KSL article highlighting the $1.2B in aid:

Comment 1:
This is great - no question. But I do wish the church was 100% transparent with its finances. A yearly report with how much coming in, how much on operating expenses, how much in reserves, and how much to charitable giving.

Response 1:
That information is not anyone's business but the Church as the Church is not a publicly traded organization, but a private, not-for-profit organization. I am grateful to know my donations go to good places, but at the end of the day, it is a donation, with no strings attached, and I donate because it is what I feel in my heart the Lord wants me to do.

Reply:
As a tithe-paying member, it is my business. I believe and hope that it is being used appropriately. I should be able to know.

It was presented to the members until 1959. It would seem to go against the directive to govern the Church through common consent.

[Robin Hood]

By "these men", are you referring to Joseph Smith? He was the one who received the revelation recorded as D&C 119.

I believe Joseph receive a revelation for his time, but we've gutted most of what he taught today.

I do disagree that all surplus be given to the church and its leaders.

I don't worship Joseph, he was a damn good man, but I can disagree w/ him.

So you pick and choose and make it up as you go along. Got it.

[Reluctant Watchman]

So you pick and choose and make it up as you go along. Got it.

That's funny. The very precept taught by the Lord is that we "pick and choose", yet where I don't agree with you is that I "make it up."

I could go on quite extensively about the nature and structure of how the church is to be organized. This comes from an extensive study about tithing and the principle of consecration. I don't make my opinions known here lightly. Maybe I'll create a thread someday exploring the topic.

[larsenb]

. . . . . I think it might be an attempt at damage control; to try and publicly account for their charity in light of the bad press they got on their holdings.
I also think that it's used as a missionary tool for the nonmembers to see how service oriented the church is.

I personally have problems with using public virtue signalling as a missionary tool. You see this tactic used constantly on LDS apologetic web sites.

[TwochurchesOnly]

I'm sure many of you saw the email about this tonight. The timing on this is awesome a month after considering that matter closed and general conference is fast approaching. Yay!
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... se-in-need

Reporting this to members is one thing but they published it for the world on their news outlet:

https://www.ksl.com/article/50606243/ch ... ealth-care

"As Christ’s Church, the First Presidency said in the report, the faith is simply doing what the Savior of the world would do."

Oh really? Jesus said what he would do right here:
Matthew 6
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

I don’t think Jesus was kidding when he said this. The church knows scriptures better than I but publishing this for the world on KSL flies in the face of His words. Jesus didn’t add any qualifiers for when its ok to do this but a church with His name in it should take those scriptures seriously.

“As His followers, we seek to love God and our neighbors throughout the world,” the First Presidency said. “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is eager to bless others and to help those in need. We are blessed to have the ability, resources, and trusted global connections to carry out this sacred responsibility, which we consider a joyful privilege.”

I wouldn’t give a dime much less $32 million to the UN. The UN can do whatever it wants after that check clears. The UN is wicked worldiness incarnate. They work evil under cover of fixing the world. They make Biden look like an innocent little puppy. Just look at the leftist and some bad conservatives who LOVE the UN and globalism in general. It is the ultimate command and control situation. The UN would offer nothing close to the US constitution if they held sway over regions like they want. Real freedom will cease in the name of eliminating poverty or saving the planet or whatever SDG they enact.

In my opinion the church should be actively against the secret combination called the UN. If Jesus comes back after they (the UN) gets what they want they would certainly fight against Him in the name of Equity or some other secular idol. Perhaps by working so closely with the UN the church hopes to usher in the 2nd coming but that sounds completely crazy. I get the allure of opening doors to nations for missionary work and humanitarian things but the most humanitarian thing we can do for the world is end the UN or at least withhold any support or cooperation. Mark my words, (pun intended) the antichrist will work for an NGO.

P.S. why didn't they just use shell corporations to hide the charitable giving and service? So they keep investments secret out of fear that donations might slow but have zero issues disobeying the direction of Christ himself "that thine alms may be in secret"? Apparently, every day is opposite day and nobody told me. Try making this point to your LDS friends and see if they become slippery as eels when faced with conflicts like this. The church of Christ should strive to live higher laws. I don't want to tear down the gospel. I want the church I still belong to to follow Him. That's all.

"As Christ's Church, the FP said... simply doing what the Savior of the world would do."

They start off with blasphemy !

How 'bout you simply do as He commands?
No poor among you.

of course that would mean a complete undoing of the falsehoods/ deceptions and corruptions that have blinded the church members for generations.
the leaders will not give up their power and money

[InfoWarrior82]

"We're just doing what the Lord would do! Aren't we awesome?"

Even an eight year old could eviscerate this defense strategy.

If you really wanted to impress, make all your ledgers transparent. But that would be a disincentive for members paying their tithes, right?

[Seed Starter]

I can see the "damned if you do, dammed if you don't" mentality here. They don't say anything... and they get blasted. They say something, and we scold them for doing it. But, as noted, the timing is important here. They got their hand caught in the cookie jar.

I do think there are ways they could publish the charitable efforts they are doing w/o making a big deal about it. In fact, they should be fully transparent in ALL financial transactions. Give members the nitty gritty if they want it in a financial audit report.

I think the reason people clamor on both sides, is because of a lack of transparency and the blatant example of financial fraud, hiding it from the members.

I have a suggestion for the church. Follow Christ and follow the law. Jesus didn't say "trumpet your alms before men if it helps missionary work." He said don't do it at all. If the church has trouble interpreting simple scripture or following SEC laws who are they to represent the Savior or be trusted to pass on revelation to members? If they aren't ignorant of the law and what Jesus said then they are intentionally going against them to gain something. If I follow them and defend them against my conscience then I do wrong.

They could have just sent members the email but they just had to shout about it to the world. Hosting the data for members to log in and see what their donations are accomplishing would be pretty easy for a multi billion dollar church. In this way they aren't damned if they do or damned if they don't. That accomplishes transparency without going against the words of Jesus. The church isn't ignorant or poor. They want it this way.

[Seed Starter]

"We're just doing what the Lord would do! Aren't we awesome?"

Even an eight year old could eviscerate this defense strategy.

If you really wanted to impress, make all your ledgers transparent. But that would be a disincentive for members paying their tithes, right?

YES! What they said goes directly against Jesus! Did they get a special exemption from Him to get away with this?

"and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."

What rewards will we give up by acting contrary to the words of Jesus? Perhaps common consent is needed for just such a case as this. I don't want the church to be under condemnation because of the mistakes they make. The tradeoff isn't worth it here guys. Acting contrary to Christ will slow the work.

[InfoWarrior82]

"We're just doing what the Lord would do! Aren't we awesome?"

Even an eight year old could eviscerate this defense strategy.

If you really wanted to impress, make all your ledgers transparent. But that would be a disincentive for members paying their tithes, right?

YES! What they said goes directly against Jesus! Did they get a special exemption from Him to get away with this?

"and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."

What rewards will we give up by acting contrary to the words of Jesus? Perhaps common consent is needed for just such a case as this. I don't want the church to be under condemnation because of the mistakes they make. The tradeoff isn't worth it here guys. Acting contrary to Christ will slow the work.

Yep. It's funny that they tell us that the Lord would have compiled a 48 page press release on all the charitable things He did.

(Hi TBM lurkers)

[endlessQuestions]

Fascinating:

“The Church of Jesus Christ also continued its environmental stewardship initiatives. Since 2018, Church headquarters has reduced its yearly water consumption by 38 million gallons. More than 500 meetinghouses worldwide now have solar panels. Deseret Industries processed 73 million recycled goods. And the Church’s Print and Distribution Center recycled nearly 4,000 tons of paper, metal, cardboard and plastic.”

Hope none of those papers were things they were supposed to file with the government.

[Seed Starter]

Can someone link to the 2021 report?

[Seed Starter]

"We're just doing what the Lord would do! Aren't we awesome?"

Even an eight year old could eviscerate this defense strategy.

If you really wanted to impress, make all your ledgers transparent. But that would be a disincentive for members paying their tithes, right?

YES! What they said goes directly against Jesus! Did they get a special exemption from Him to get away with this?

"and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."

What rewards will we give up by acting contrary to the words of Jesus? Perhaps common consent is needed for just such a case as this. I don't want the church to be under condemnation because of the mistakes they make. The tradeoff isn't worth it here guys. Acting contrary to Christ will slow the work.

Yep. It's funny that they tell us that the Lord would have compiled a 48 page press release on all the charitable things He did.

(Hi TBM lurkers)

[TwochurchesOnly]

Fascinating:

“The Church of Jesus Christ also continued its environmental stewardship initiatives. Since 2018, Church headquarters has reduced its yearly water consumption by 38 million gallons. More than 500 meetinghouses worldwide now have solar panels. Deseret Industries processed 73 million recycled goods. And the Church’s Print and Distribution Center recycled nearly 4,000 tons of paper, metal, cardboard and plastic.”

Hope none of those papers were things they were supposed to file with the government.

[TwochurchesOnly]

Fascinating:

“The Church of Jesus Christ also continued its environmental stewardship initiatives. Since 2018, Church headquarters has reduced its yearly water consumption by 38 million gallons. More than 500 meetinghouses worldwide now have solar panels. Deseret Industries processed 73 million recycled goods. And the Church’s Print and Distribution Center recycled nearly 4,000 tons of paper, metal, cardboard and plastic.”

Hope none of those papers were things they were supposed to file with the government.

"...it's environmental stewardship initiatives.."
Blah blah bs - all part of their requirements to be in UN club
Bowing to their true leaders

[JK4Woods]

What irks me is the disclaimer on the donation slips, that despite indicating which fund or use the member donation is listed for, the church out right says it can do whatever it wants with the money.
As it see fit.