"Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Disease.

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endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

More claims without evidence:

"Our review has highlighted that a university education falls short when it fails to adequately prepare students to navigate cultural and racial complexities. Similarly, our BYU community falls short when BIPOC students feel isolated and unwelcome."

Says who?

For what purpose?

And at what cost?

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

Virtue signaling is not academic:

"In our work as a committee, we had the privilege of meeting with BIPOC students and alumni from various multiracial groups. We were deeply saddened to hear the students articulate their experiences with poignant clarity; we were sorry to have to ask them to revisit those difficult experiences for us; we felt to mourn with those whose hearts have been broken by their fellow students and others, whether by ignorance or hostility. BYU’s BIPOC students shared that their daily lives at BYU are too often marred by marginalizing comments, otherizing questions, and exhausting racial slights. These have come from roommates, classmates, church congregations, and faculty members."

Additionally, they may want to stick to real words since they're a supposed institution of higher learning.

And appropriate forms of language.

Because words have meanings.

And adjectives are meant to be descriptive of realities.

And so on.

And so forth.

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

'We were particularly concerned to hear BIPOC students—many of them returned missionaries— describe the difficult experience of arriving at BYU with the hope that attending BYU would assist them “in their quest for perfection and eternal life” in a community of Saints, only to find that this was not their reality'

"Their reality" is important. And needs to be addressed. In therapy.

But not what institutional policy and procedure should be based on.

Every follower of the left-hand path knows that subjective reality is the ground they want the battle to be fought on.

Because it is subjective, and therefore ungovernable by anyone but the individual.

Why supposedly mature, thoughtful individuals at BYU don't address this fact is beyond me.

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

"Instead, many students reported feeling a sense of surprise, loneliness, and isolation when they realized that they see few other BIPOC students on campus and in their classes."

Why would they be surprised?

These are "the best of the best", are they not? The "chosen ones" who have excelled in such a manner that they merit a spot at "the Lord's university"?

Did they not research the demographics of the institution they applied to attend at?

The numbers are all publicly available.

They used their agency to apply.

They used their agency to come to campus.

And again, do we really imagine that so-called BIPOC students are the only ones who show up on campus and feel surprised, lonely, and isolated when they realize that there aren't many other people like them in the world?

SMH.

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

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"They also reported that they find themselves serving as representatives of their respective races and educating students and faculty on issues relating to race and race relations. These experiences have left many disillusioned, brokenhearted, and struggling. Many described that these challenges to their sense of belonging and their ability to feel connected result in profound faith challenges."

So they receive a wonderful opportunity to be ambassadors for their chosen identity, and then feel sad about having to do their job and not finding the success they feel they deserve?

And when they have profound faith challenges, what is it that they have put their faith in? Because it doesn't really seem to make sense that people who serve as representatives of misunderstood realities would lose faith in Jesus Christ, since that's sort of what HIS WHOLE LIFE WAS ABOUT. It seems if their faith was in Jesus Christ, they would find their relationship with him blossoming, as they learned how to access his power to overcome their feelings of disillusionment and broken heartedness, as they lovingly sought to educate misinformed brothers and sisters about true principles.

EmmaLee
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by EmmaLee »

endlessQuestions wrote: March 22nd, 2023, 12:38 pm And again, do we really imagine that so-called BIPOC students are the only ones who show up on campus and feel surprised, lonely, and isolated when they realize that there aren't many other people like them in the world?

SMH.
As a believer in Jesus Christ (the real scriptural one, not the hippy, free-love, there-is-no-sin, limp wristed version of today), the Book of Mormon as literal history/scripture, Joseph Smith as an actual prophet, seer, and revelator - and as a lover of the U.S. Constitution, Bill of Rights, 2nd Amendment, liberty, and truth - I would feel very lonely and isolated at BYU. In fact, I feel that way at church every Sunday.

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

"The students described many different individual experiences, but we noted a number of recurring
themes across these meetings that we feel an urgency to communicate. (For a full discussion of our findings,
see p. 12.)"

Isn't this just some weird form of "whitesplaining" going on here?

Why don't they just let these people speak for themselves?

Also, please note that their "full findings" are to be found on p.12 (internal notation).

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

EmmaLee wrote: March 22nd, 2023, 12:43 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: March 22nd, 2023, 12:38 pm And again, do we really imagine that so-called BIPOC students are the only ones who show up on campus and feel surprised, lonely, and isolated when they realize that there aren't many other people like them in the world?

SMH.
As a believer in Jesus Christ (the real scriptural one, not the hippy, free-love, there-is-no-sin, limp wristed version of today), the Book of Mormon as literal history/scripture, Joseph Smith as an actual prophet, seer, and revelator - and as a lover of the U.S. Constitution, Bill of Rights, 2nd Amendment, liberty, and truth - I would feel very lonely and isolated at BYU. In fact, I feel that way at church every Sunday.
We're getting there, EmmaLee. We're getting there. :)

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

"The most pressing concern is that BIPOC students often feel isolated and unsafe at BYU due to racism".

Again and again, the committee tips their hand.

They don't care about objective reality.

They care about subjective feelings.

Very, very left-hand path-y.

And, since they pulled in de Tocqueville with their link to President Nelson's comments while pandering to the NAACP, perhaps we should suggest they read the whole book, and learn about the tyranny of the majority.

Which might lead them to ponderize on the tyranny of the minority.

If they have time, that is.

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

Ok, here's their "data", I suppose:

By way of illustration, one student from the Hispanos Unidos club said it is “very hard to find other Latino students at BYU.”

A student from the Tribe of Many Feathers club recounted that she wanted to transfer out of BYU after her first year because of the lack of other Native American students.

A member of the Black Student Union reported, “My experience as a Black student at BYU is not equal to other students
on campus because I don’t feel safe.”

A student from the Tribe of Many Feathers stated that during one Halloween there were White students who dressed up as “savages” in Helaman Halls.

Another student from Hispanos Unidos said that a faculty member chastised her and a friend for speaking Spanish before class.

A member of the Black Student Union recounted an incident where a classmate used the n-word multiple times
in response to a professor’s question, leaving the room in shock. He described the acute pain and heartache
that the event caused to himself and to other Black students who later heard about it.

Six anecdotal stories.

No hearing from both sides of the issue.

No investigation, apparently.

Just an acceptance of a subjective experience, treated as gospel.

Beyond that, how is trouble "finding somebody who identifies themselves with the same labels as me" indicative of systemic anything?

Do I really need to break this down any further? Because it seems obvious that, by and large, we're dealing here with kids who simply don't have the tools to handle reality very well.

Which is sad.

And we'd like to help them.

But not by spending huge amounts of money and time in an effort to TRANSFORM the institution.

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

"Exacerbating the isolation, BIPOC students report that they do not know where to turn within the university community for services and assistance, if such are available, to help them navigate these challenges unique to racial isolation"

Ignorance is not a reason to waste sacred funds and transform an institution.

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

"There is not a prophylactic program at BYU to build belonging and community, respond to the unique concerns of BIPOC students, or help BIPOC students navigate difficulties before such difficulties become a mental health crisis or require
counseling."

And if they create one?

How will they create a prophylactic program for the unique concerns of every individual and group that feels marginalized?

Will they raise tithing?

Perhaps they can funnel some of that money out of the shell companies they've set up and use it for this?

They are engaging in illogical, irrational thinking that is leading to irrational, illogical outcomes. And it will morally and financially bankrupt them if they don't stop.

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

"Louise Wheeler’s extensive work with BIPOC students as an assistant clinical professor and psychologist for CAPS has reaffirmed that these students consistently feel isolated and unsafe, undermining their sense of belonging and interfering in their educational efforts."

Oh, how I'd love to spend some time digging into Louise Wheeler, but alas, I just don't have the time.

Perhaps it would be helpful if she would define her terms for us, so we can understand the nature and scope of the issue.

Not going to hold my breath.

This isn't science, after all.

It's politics.

Identity politics.

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

From Ms. Wheeler:

"We have data that shows that students of color, especially Black students, utilize our services less but come in
with higher levels of distress than their White peers when they finally do come in. This suggests that they wait longer to
seek help"

We have data!

We have data!

Great.

Show me your data.

And don't you know calling people "Black" is a no-no?

And that's a very poor conclusion coming from someone who should know better. In what ways do purportedly higher levels of distress suggest these students have waited longer to seek help? I can think of a plethora of other reasons these students might report higher levels of distress than their contemporaries.

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

This one's interesting, because it points to institutional abuse as the problem, not racism per se:

"Some of the feedback I have personally heard from students regarding our services [at CAPS] includes not being sure if they can trust us because of lack of diversity on our staff but also lack of trust in the university institution in general (e.g., worry about being invalidated, about having to justify their experience, about having to explain
themselves, etc.)."

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

Appeal to ignorance:

"Students feel isolated and do not know where to go for support. I hear this from students of color multiple times a week. . . . They don’t know what offices on campus are the appropriate space to talk about their experience or even to file complaints when experiencing racism on campus."

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

"[BIPOC students feel] a lot of stress regarding the rise of alt-right movements (e.g., DezNat) within the
university student body. This includes worries about physical safety and worries about things that might be said or
done in classrooms, at church, etc. I have heard so much more about [these concerns] this year than in the past. This
has led many of the students I have worked with to tell friends and siblings to not attend BYU"

What about the stress that the students in the so-called alt-right movements feel?

And what a bummer - looks like everyone is telling everyone not to attend BYU.

Might be good advice, from what I see.

TwochurchesOnly
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

endlessQuestions wrote: March 22nd, 2023, 10:39 am It appears from this quote on page 7 of the report that our church leaders might be using General Conference to send out coordinated programmatic messages to culturally conditioned individuals in an effort to shape their attitudes and behavior:

"In an October 2020 general conference address, President Russell M. Nelson said, “Today I call upon our
members everywhere to lead out in abandoning attitudes and actions of prejudice. I plead with you to promote respect for all of God’s children.”2

At the same conference, President Dallin H. Oaks of the First
Presidency said that as citizens and members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, “we must do better to help root out racism.”3

Echoing the theme, Elder Quentin L. Cook of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles urged us to “celebrate diversity” as we seek to be unified, noting that “unity and diversity are not opposites. We can achieve greater unity as we foster an atmosphere of inclusion and respect for diversity.”
🤢🤮🤯all of it

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

A little more "data":

"Wheeler’s observations were supported by statements made by students in our meeting with the Black
Student Union, including these:

I thought I was coming out of a difficult community to be associated with the Church community. After I came
to BYU, I learned I’m still not in a community I belong to. Systemic problems tell me I’m not supposed to be here.

I feel like I have no power.

I felt like I had to prove myself and still do.

I got baptized in racism when I came to BYU.

People have normalized aggressive comments here.

I feel oppressed here.

I am fearful. But I should have the same right to feel safe [that the White students have]."

These aren't the thoughts of well-adjusted, thoughtful, independent souls.

They appear to be the fearful, irrational perceptions of people who have been abused, and haven't properly processed their traumatizing experiences.

Which needs to be addressed.

But not by TRANSFORMING THE INSTITUTION.

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

"The statements outlined above are but a sampling of a broader set of difficult feelings and challenging experiences of BIPOC students at BYU that are tied to racism they have experienced at BYU".

Great.

Then give me the rest of your data, so we can identify the real scope of the problem.

Serragon
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by Serragon »

endlessQuestions wrote: March 22nd, 2023, 10:21 am 'You charged us to review processes, policies, and organizational attitudes at BYU and to “root out
racism,” as advised by Church President Russell M. Nelson in his joint statement with the NAACP.'
Statements like these always make me very nervous.

If I have a garden and see some weeds, it makes perfect sense to want to "root them out". And removing them by their roots is the best way to ensure they do not cause any further problems in the garden.

But what if I don't see any weeds in the garden? What If I am simply convinced that they must exist and need to be rooted out? I am very likely to destroy the entire garden in a vain attempt to dig down to the roots and remove them. The garden will be full of holes and nothing will be able to grow, with the good plants being rooted out in order to get to the imaginary weeds hidden so very deep in the soil.

Because this obsession with systemic racism cannot be objectively seen, but can only be understood subjectively, this rooting out process is guaranteed to destroy whatever it touches. All of the real racist policies were removed long ago in these systems. All that is left are the fantasies of those who need it to exist as a foundation of their faith. And to these people, the lack of objective evidence of the existence of this racism and the lack of fruit of the rooting process are even more evidence of its carefully hidden existence.

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

"How then can BYU build belonging, create community, and protect the well-being of BIPOC students?"

I don't know, teach them the gospel of Jesus Christ and encourage them to apply its teachings?

That's only one recommendation, and fits nicely with the mission of the University, yes?

Free advice.

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

Let's skip to p.16, to the section called "Findings".

Again, earlier in the document these are referred to as "the findings", so the expectation is that they are whole and complete.

1. Many BIPOC students feel unsafe and isolated at BYU.

a. BIPOC students express pain and sadness because they came to BYU with hopes of having an intellectually invigorating and faith-promoting experience but instead found their testimonies weakened, their emotional well-being negatively impacted, and their ability to focus on academic success diminished because of racial tensions and significantly negative and hurtful experiences.

So, again, #1 is based on feelings.

And again, these are not feelings directly associated with self-identifying BIPOC students. Nearly every person that I know that went to BYU had these feelings. Myself included.

Here's the rest of #1:

b. BIPOC students describe harmful and isolating interactions with fellow students on the issue
of race, stemming both from ignorance and animus.
c. BIPOC students describe detrimental interactions with faculty whom they perceive to have
ignored or even facilitated racially insensitive class discussions or who seemed unprepared
or unwilling to address hurtful comments in class.
d. BIPOC students have experienced discriminatory or racially stereotypical treatment in
university-sponsored classroom instruction, campus events, and campus housing.
e. BIPOC students describe a sense of isolation and insecurity because they often see few, if any,
other BIPOC students in the colleges and courses in which they enroll and in areas of campus
they frequent.
f. BIPOC students have experienced discriminatory application of Dress and Grooming Standards
on campus, especially hairstyles for Black students. There appears to be some confusion and
inadequate training about how certain aspects of the Dress and Grooming Standards apply to
BIPOC populations.
g. BIPOC students are discouraged by the lack of diverse and representative mentors on the
faculty; many report that they would not be interested in returning to BYU as faculty because
of their isolation as students.
h. Among BIPOC student-athletes, there can be a sense of separation between upper and lower
campus cultures and resources, and such separation from the rest of the student body can be
exacerbated for those who are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
i. BIPOC students report that a lack of a dedicated gathering space hinders their ability to connect
and build community

TwochurchesOnly
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

endlessQuestions wrote: March 22nd, 2023, 11:06 am "We have heard heartbreaking stories from individuals who have felt the pain of racism at BYU, and we have felt to mourn with those suffering from these wounds"

Let's take a moment to stop and recognize that there are very likely real incidents of racism at BYU.

And that addressing those issues, case by case, is an important work. And that the university bears the responsibility of that work, if the incident of racism can be tied directly to the university.

I'm glad the university gave these individuals the chance to share their stories, and hope they find healing through the application of the principles found in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
" Let's take a moment to stop and recognize..VERY LIKELY REAL incidents.."
😳😡

endlessQuestions
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Re: "Systemic Racism" is a Symptom of the Disease that Plagues the LDS Church - Institutional Abuse. Let's Cure the Dise

Post by endlessQuestions »

2. Current systems at the university are inadequate to coordinate services for students seeking assistance with challenges related to race, diversity, and inclusion; the university lacks coordination and accountability in prioritizing such efforts.

EQ: I don't know how you can possibly determine this based on the evidence you've provided.

The rest of #2:

a. BIPOC students who experience racial discrimination suffer emotional and academic harm
that is not adequately addressed by university safety systems.
b. BIPOC students who experience racial discrimination report difficulty in knowing where and
how to report their experiences or seek assistance.
i. BIPOC students report that, where possible, they sought out BIPOC faculty, staff, and
administrators who could assist them with coping with and overcoming the trauma
experienced due to racial discrimination.
ii. There is no centralized and recognizable process for reporting, assessing, and resolving
grievances regarding racial discrimination experienced by students.
c. BYU Multicultural Student Services, which serves some of the needs of BIPOC students, is
located in the interior first floor of the Wilkinson Student Center. Students report that this
location feels remote and isolated, perpetuating a sense of “otherness” and a lack of priority
for their issues.

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