The Problem w LDS Men

[tmac]

Fair enough, come on over and let’s haul some hay, and you can show-off your BMI. I just turned 61, and I have yet to meet anyone between 20-40 who can keep up with me hauling hay. But if you’re the guy, I would definitely like to meet you. I’ve also got some cows that I milk by hand to make sure that my grandkids all have “real” milk, and you can test-out your hand strength on them while we’re at it. And when we’re done with that, I’d love to have some help weeding the garden. So, even at the risk of being shown-up by your brand of real man, I’d be glad to put my sorry a$$ up against your BMI doing some real work.

By the way, my waist size hasn’t changed since I was in my 20s, and is smaller than any of my 20 and 30-something year-old sons — and I won $500 in a bale-bucking contest when I was about 50 — against a whole raft of teenagers, and 20-30 year-old farm boys.

But, knock yourself out tough guy. Take it from me, it’s really easy to brag on an anonymous Internet forum.

And by the way, and perhaps most importantly, how many people do you provide for?

I don't provide for anyone. I'm a single millennial which is pretty common. I'm also not overweight, in a loveless marriage, pining for polygamy to return and thinking that as someone born in the 1960-1970s that there's something unique and impressive about me having a wife and kids. I'm not going to go back and forth. I think you people showed rude, unfounded judgement on a whole audience of men that ignores the gentleness and meekness and contrite attributes Christ asks people to walk with. For all of the failings of the LDS institution, I believe a lot of men in that institution are trying to behave in a way they think is Christ-like rather than trying to be weak men as framed by this thread so I said something about it.

Bless you. Although you haven’t said anything here that would cause me to envy you, including your BMI, I still wish you the best.

[Cewa19]

I watched this video with my wife and I read the book referenced a while ago. I agree with most of it. I just finished a fairly long career in the military, so I am somewhat jaded and probably a little biased. In my ward, the relief society literally does EVERYTHING. They are the bomb.com (I am dating myself). Our elders quorum has some great guys in it, but zero leaders. They are riding the coat tails of the relief society. The elders don’t do anything. In my current ward, right now, every single one of them need to watch this video. In their defense my civilian employment also suffers from a lack of leadership. True leadership isn’t about telling someone what to do, it is also about providing purpose and motivation (inspiration). We are all in a fight for our lives right now against the power of evil. This is the real deal.

The best man I knew was a beast of a man, physically strong, confident, yet extremely loving and patient. He would tear up easily when discussing his family (kids and grand kids) and the most supportive person in the world. He dressed impeccably, and was always a gentlemen. He helped his wife cook, clean, do dishes, garden, you name it. He is the last person anyone would mess with though. He was also a sealer in the temple before he died. He was patient and non-judgmental, he was solid.

I think things are about to get very hard in this country. Elders are going to need to step up.

[tmac]

I agree. There is a major lack of leadership. I know very few leaders, men or women. I see plenty of women these days who are trying to be overachievers, but very few actual leaders. There is a huge leadership vacuum.

As alluded to in another pending thread, if/when a genuine Davidic Servant does appear, in terms of leadership, it should be a stark contrast with anything we have seen in recent memory.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The problem w/ LDS men... they often get their feelings hurt when someone disagrees with them.

[Erastothenes]

The problem as I see it is that our church has decided to put a bunch of effeminate men in charge. How many people love the stories of Captain Moroni or Samuel The Lamanite. These men kicked butt. They weren't afraid or milquetoast in what they thought or how they acted. Now we have a "prophet" who posts cute little pictures of him in his sweet sweater swinging on his swing set. Oh how inspiring. NOT. He doesn't inspire me as a man. Why can't a bishop grow a beard? To masculine? To aggressive? How come all of the leaders of the church are CEOs, MBAs, Doctors? How many of these men could change their own oil or punch a charging water buffalo in the face? The church has become super lame. That's it. It's boring. There's no inspiration from these professional religious leaders. Why go to church and hear another talk about how awesome Rusty is when I can stay at home and do something that is actually fulfilling as a man

[Reluctant Watchman]

There's no inspiration from these professional religious leaders.

I'm going to borrow that phrase. Sums things up pretty well.

[endlessQuestions]

The problem as I see it is that our church has decided to put a bunch of effeminate men in charge. How many people love the stories of Captain Moroni or Samuel The Lamanite. These men kicked butt. They weren't afraid or milquetoast in what they thought or how they acted. Now we have a "prophet" who posts cute little pictures of him in his sweet sweater swinging on his swing set. Oh how inspiring. NOT. He doesn't inspire me as a man. Why can't a bishop grow a beard? To masculine? To aggressive? How come all of the leaders of the church are CEOs, MBAs, Doctors? How many of these men could change their own oil or punch a charging water buffalo in the face? The church has become super lame. That's it. It's boring. There's no inspiration from these professional religious leaders. Why go to church and hear another talk about how awesome Rusty is when I can stay at home and do something that is actually fulfilling as a man

Post number 1 from our new friend wins the day.

punch a charging water buffalo in the face

I don't care if it's real or satire, that is going into EQ's lexicon for further use.

Interesting username, by the way. You a fan of maps, by any chance? A man or woman who knows where they are, and where they're going?

[BuriedTartaria]

Bless you. But you haven’t said anything here that would cause me to envy you, including your BMI. But, I wish you the best.

I wish the same for you.

"thinking that as someone born in the 1960-1970s that there's something unique and impressive about me having a wife and kids".

This is a frightening statement, BT. Because there is something that is indeed unique and impressive about building, providing for, protecting, and presiding over a family. Something eternally important, and of great consequence.

I will clarify what I meant. I know having children and a wife is important (and I know having wives is important to the polygamy audience here). What I meant was, if I lived during a prosperous time that saw the "healthiest middle class the world has ever seen", I wouldn't really use having a wife and kids as part of an example of being exemplary because that's such a common thing for people who experienced childhood and young adulthood at that period in time.

But, I can see that Tmac has cultivated a good life as a strong man through hard work that continues on today. Because of where he is coming from and the qualities he has built his life on, I can see validity in his criticisms of what he views as a decrease in masculinity among men. I disagree that by and large active LDS men are feminine softies. I can see soft, I feel that's out of a desire to emulate Christ. I don't see a wide-spread problem of feminine men in active Mormonism at all from interacting with loads of active LDS men. I see some that are extra-cordial, extra friendly, trying very hard to really live qualities of being inoffensive and humble (I see some that are extremely naive and to be fair I'm naive on things). But now I'm repeating things I've already said in this thread.

I'm sorry for saying immature things. I like sound criticism and discussion of LDS doctrine, theology and institutional rot. The nit-picking of everything about LDS I generally don't look at because I generally find it uninteresting and mean-spirited/unproductive criticism. I also am tired of the debate of masculinity, what counts as healthy masculinity and the attacks of men on the internet and in general modern discourse.


Joseph Smith never publicly said anything malicious about anyone to my knowledge. I know he criticized people, but I can't think of any documented instance of him lashing out and being vile to someone. Nephi was beaten up by his brothers and outside of demonstrating God's power by pushing them aside with an extended hand, he never physically attacked them back. When they plotted his death, God didn't tell him to grab Laban's sword and meet them in battle. God told him it was time to separate.

These are men of God and I believe these acts of being smitten and trying to respond in a higher way lead to the kind of man that ends up in Zion (I just want it to come, I just want God's prophecies to happen which seem to involve better people) and I think most men and women would look at these acts and call the men doing them to be push-overs if they weren't stories attached to someone viewed as a modern prophet and/or stories associated with historical scripture. As much as I love old-fashioned America, I don't think United States norms and sensibilities of any era of it will form the DNA of the prophesied Zion community. But I'm sure some people have quotes from Brigham-era leaders or maybe even Joseph quotes that may say the contrary. That wouldn't change my view but I'd be willing to see validity in their perspective.

"They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea."

What would a man living in that place be viewed as by the world? From men and women on the left side of politics/ideology and men and women on the right side of politics/ideology. Would the man in that community, upholding that standard be viewed as soft? Not masculine? Feminine? Weak?

I'm far from the biblical expert Niemand is so I hope he corrects me if I'm wrong but I'd bet the scriptures call on us to behave more like the lamb aspect of Christ than the lion aspect of Christ (vengeance is the Lord's) and I think if a man truly does that, he will be viewed as weak, a push-over, walked over and disregarded by men and women. I almost hope I never get married as I write this message. I've rarely known women I think would honest-to-God choose the boring, meek, humility-seeking individual the scriptures seem to scream God wants out of people. That really irritates me but that's the world. That's life.


I fundamentally disagree with what makes up and what counts as masculinity in the eyes of God. I'm sorry for producing embarrassing messages on what I view is a forum that has sincerely done good for the work God began with Joseph Smith.

And EndlessQuestions you have really done amazing detective work. It's neat to have seen it unfold. You seem to have a role of needing to research and to expose. Others, like Reluctant Watchmen, have a real fire for speaking up on different views on LDS history and modern doctrine errors leading people astray. I'm not good at voicing my thoughts without getting heated. I think my role is to watch others speak.


I can now see how some of my LDS criticism has come off as irritating or nit-picking to other users, particularly the user with the Darkside of the Moon album cover as their avatar. He told me once in a thread I made that the LDS church criticism can be too much sometimes, though I felt my criticism was worth voicing in that thread and that it was worth making (disbelieving they'd offer up everything in their vaults unmolested). I hope if I ever make a thread or comment criticizing LDS history again that it's worthwhile and not re-treading the same material or just looking for something to complain about.



I'm really nobody.

[Erastothenes]

The problem as I see it is that our church has decided to put a bunch of effeminate men in charge. How many people love the stories of Captain Moroni or Samuel The Lamanite. These men kicked butt. They weren't afraid or milquetoast in what they thought or how they acted. Now we have a "prophet" who posts cute little pictures of him in his sweet sweater swinging on his swing set. Oh how inspiring. NOT. He doesn't inspire me as a man. Why can't a bishop grow a beard? To masculine? To aggressive? How come all of the leaders of the church are CEOs, MBAs, Doctors? How many of these men could change their own oil or punch a charging water buffalo in the face? The church has become super lame. That's it. It's boring. There's no inspiration from these professional religious leaders. Why go to church and hear another talk about how awesome Rusty is when I can stay at home and do something that is actually fulfilling as a man

Post number 1 from our new friend wins the day.

punch a charging water buffalo in the face

I don't care if it's real or satire, that is going into EQ's lexicon for further use.

Interesting username, by the way. You a fan of maps, by any chance? A man or woman who knows where they are, and where they're going?

Such an astute observation. I am quite the cartography nerd.

[endlessQuestions]

The problem as I see it is that our church has decided to put a bunch of effeminate men in charge. How many people love the stories of Captain Moroni or Samuel The Lamanite. These men kicked butt. They weren't afraid or milquetoast in what they thought or how they acted. Now we have a "prophet" who posts cute little pictures of him in his sweet sweater swinging on his swing set. Oh how inspiring. NOT. He doesn't inspire me as a man. Why can't a bishop grow a beard? To masculine? To aggressive? How come all of the leaders of the church are CEOs, MBAs, Doctors? How many of these men could change their own oil or punch a charging water buffalo in the face? The church has become super lame. That's it. It's boring. There's no inspiration from these professional religious leaders. Why go to church and hear another talk about how awesome Rusty is when I can stay at home and do something that is actually fulfilling as a man

Post number 1 from our new friend wins the day.

punch a charging water buffalo in the face

I don't care if it's real or satire, that is going into EQ's lexicon for further use.

Interesting username, by the way. You a fan of maps, by any chance? A man or woman who knows where they are, and where they're going?

Such an astute observation. I am quite the cartography nerd.

Would you, by chance then, be aware of how the Book of Mormon uses the cardinal directions in such a way that vouches for its authenticity?

If not, and you are interested, I will try to reach into the cobwebs of my memory and pull out what I once heard in a testimony meeting on this topic. Something about the way Lehi or Nephi say "South-southeast direction", or something along those lines...

...and if so, and you have something of interest to say, you should consider starting your very own first thread. I will be there to participate, should you do so! A meritorious and interesting topic, to be sure! Welcome to the forum!

[J2]

I'm going to go out on a limb and take a slightly different tack on this. I don't think there's anything wrong with a man being "feminine," at least to a degree. In our world where we've heavily encouraged and allowed women to become more masculine, I'd say if a man wants to express femininity (at least to a degree), it's fair game, and there's really nothing wrong with that. We're not living in the 1800s anymore.

That being said: The real "problem" with today's LDS men is that they are either too lazy or too afraid to do hard work. They sit back and allow the Relief Society to do all the heavy lifting, while they come to church and sit passively in Elders Quorum. Yes, I've been in some VERY good Elders Quorum discussions, but I also feel like the men don't work as hard as the sisters do to try and serve and lead, both in the church AND in their families.

This mirrors the larger trend we see in the world right now IMO, which is that women are heavily encouraged to become their best selves, and that they "can do anything a man can do and more," while men are largely devalued and ignored by society. The result is that the men have felt that they aren't wanted or needed anymore, so they have gotten more lazy, and absorbed in addictions such as sports, video games, pornography, etc.

The church helps to buck this trend a bit, by giving most of the important leadership callings to men (which gives them opportunities to actually step up and lead), but the church also hinders the autonomy of leaders a lot with its heavy-handed, top-down approach to rules and policies.

[Hiker]

2023-03-21_233914.png (965.58 KiB) Viewed 331 times

I've got some random thoughts about this:

The last few years that I was married I would look around the priesthood quorum, I knew all these men quite well. I would say 50% of them did not like their spouse (Endure to the end?), at least 50% of them were overweight and I only like being around about two or three of them.

Growing up I was in a family where my father was emotionally abusive, thank God, my grandfather was a wonderful role model!

I was definitely not your regular Mormon guy! Dropped out of college three times! I'm self-employed and I've been that way for over 25 years! I spent lots of time volunteering at my children's schools. For 20 years I owned a Land Cruiser and I would take trips with non Mormon friends! (It was kind of weird when I would talk about it to my mother she was concerned that I was out with non Mormons!) Anyway, since I was self-employed I could go on trips all over Utah, Arizona, and deserts in California. And whenever I could, I would bring one or both of my children on trips

I had a few friends at church that also had Land Cruisers but it was always so difficult to get them to go since they have so many callings and other things going on with the church.

I asked for a divorce early on at the beginning of the pandemic. Every single day that I have been away from her I have been so happy! We're supposed to have these celestial marriages, I think the church does a very poor job in helping couples make sure that they choose a good spouse.

Last year I moved to a Southeast Asian country. I have a girlfriend in this country, she is a wonderful woman! She is not LDS I haven't gone to church since I asked for the divorce. I love the culture here, they know how to live in the moment! She is submissive, funny, and very loving. It's very likely we will get married towards the end of the year. I've never met a woman like her before! I never experienced this type of love from a woman. She teases me, and says that I'm stubborn but we work very well together.

It's funny, the day after I ask for a divorce I had a talk with my Bishop one of the things he brought up in the conversation is that priesthood quorum is boring.

Life should be an adventure! I find so many men in the church will not take any risk. Not one inch of adventure in their life!

[Cruiserdude]

2023-03-21_233914.png

I've got some random thoughts about this:

The last few years that I was married I would look around the priesthood quorum, I knew all these men quite well. I would say 50% of them did not like their spouse (Endure to the end?), at least 50% of them were overweight and I only like being around about two or three of them.

Growing up I was in a family where my father was emotionally abusive, thank God, my grandfather was a wonderful role model!

I was definitely not your regular Mormon guy! Dropped out of college three times! I'm self-employed and I've been that way for over 25 years! I spent lots of time volunteering at my children's schools. For 20 years I owned a Land Cruiser and I would take trips with non Mormon friends! (It was kind of weird when I would talk about it to my mother she was concerned that I was out with non Mormons!) Anyway, since I was self-employed I could go on trips all over Utah, Arizona, and deserts in California. And whenever I could, I would bring one or both of my children on trips

I had a few friends at church that also had Land Cruisers but it was always so difficult to get them to go since they have so many callings and other things going on with the church.

I asked for a divorce early on at the beginning of the pandemic. Every single day that I have been away from her I have been so happy! We're supposed to have these celestial marriages, I think the church does a very poor job in helping couples make sure that they choose a good spouse.

Last year I moved to a Southeast Asian country. I have a girlfriend in this country, she is a wonderful woman! She is not LDS I haven't gone to church since I asked for the divorce. I love the culture here, they know how to live in the moment! She is submissive, funny, and very loving. It's very likely we will get married towards the end of the year. I've never met a woman like her before! I never experienced this type of love from a woman. She teases me, and says that I'm stubborn but we work very well together.

It's funny, the day after I ask for a divorce I had a talk with my Bishop one of the things he brought up in the conversation is that priesthood quorum is boring.

Life should be an adventure! I find so many men in the church will not take any risk. Not one inch of adventure in their life!

Wow. What a story. Nice 80 series and nice Runner.... I've got lots of miles clocked down there in red Rock country too, in the seat of 80s and 100s... and I also sold off my cruisers over the last couple years since getting divorced...... Wasn't easy for me lol.

[mudflap]

In talking with my nieces, I have determined that girls today are not looking for a masculine man. They are looking for a "girlfriend in a male body".

Don't you want a husband that can protect you?
Total confusion ~ "From what? I can take care of myself!"

Don't you want a husband that can provide for you?
Laughter ~ "A sugar daddy? Sure, that would be nice!"

Who is going to work on the car, fix the broken window, hook-up the new dishwasher?
Again confusion ~ You just hire someone.

They are looking for someone to go shopping with them. I am serious.

Real men today should not even be required to use their hands for manual labor around the house. That is disdainful!

I sigh and then point to the father figures in their lives. Real men who build things. Real men who protect their families.

You want girls to desire real men.... The need for masculinity has to be there.

This will come to fruition, and many will be "dazed and confused" by the choices they have made.

Myself, I cannot imagine being married to a man that cannot protect me and be willing to fight to the death for me. While knowing that I will do everything in my power to protect him as well.... (and have a clean home, a hot dinner.... etc for him )

spot on.

my daughter was playing with the neighbor kid last weekend and came to ask for a hammer and some nails. then left. Then she came back about 30 min later to ask for help - wanted me to nail a 2x4 to a tree as a cleat so they could climb it. Then later came back to ask me to nail a stick to the tree near the crotch of it so she could have a seat. so I did that.

Something so simple. She is now studying some building ideas - wants to build a tree house.

Of course I'm going to need to watch this video, but just wanted to say -
there's nothing more manly than building a home with your own bare hands to protect your family from the elements. I mean, ANYONE - or almost anyone before last week's banking crisis - could BUY a home. But then you're committing your family to 30 years of debt slavery....

I'm not a woman, but I'll tell you what I think women want: security. And a home that is paid off is pretty secure. She deserves this.....give it to her. I'll spare you the cabin pic... for now...

[ransomme]

My observations are:

...that too many Mormon men follow a group of men that self select their members, rather than following their Lord and Master.

...and one big pet peeve that I have is when some guy in leadership basically says, "I suck, my wife is the best, smartest, most organized, etc. And without her I wouldn't be here."

Why is that a pet peeve? Because it's false modesty, and all I can think is what a loser, get his wife up there to speak to us.

[Indy]

My Dad always taught that meekness is power under control. He said is was the ability to have restraint even when being provoked. I believe we are using a new definition of meekness today.

[gradles21]

In talking with my nieces, I have determined that girls today are not looking for a masculine man. They are looking for a "girlfriend in a male body".

Don't you want a husband that can protect you?
Total confusion ~ "From what? I can take care of myself!"

Don't you want a husband that can provide for you?
Laughter ~ "A sugar daddy? Sure, that would be nice!"

Who is going to work on the car, fix the broken window, hook-up the new dishwasher?
Again confusion ~ You just hire someone.

They are looking for someone to go shopping with them. I am serious.

Real men today should not even be required to use their hands for manual labor around the house. That is disdainful!

I sigh and then point to the father figures in their lives. Real men who build things. Real men who protect their families.

You want girls to desire real men.... The need for masculinity has to be there.

This will come to fruition, and many will be "dazed and confused" by the choices they have made.

Myself, I cannot imagine being married to a man that cannot protect me and be willing to fight to the death for me. While knowing that I will do everything in my power to protect him as well.... (and have a clean home, a hot dinner.... etc for him )

Your nieces are describing pajama boy, they may say that is what whey are looking for but when the rubber meets the road they will not be turned on by the guy they say they are looking for and they'll end up resenting their little pajama boy and start looking for a more traditionally masculine man.

[Momma J]

LDS men often seek to be meek: what Christ describes as a beautiful man is far from what I think some in this thread are saying a man should be

I would love to press my BMI, overall health and endurance and overall strength against a lot of you “ real men “ on this forum and women telling me I should embrace a type of toxic masculinity. I’d love to compare my BMI with a lot of the women implying too many in LDS culture are feminine. Are you doing your part and offering something feminine, playful, exciting, pristine and beautiful? If you are not, who are you to be knocking men for falling short of what you deem to be manliness?

Christ is a gentle voice meekly reaching out to an injured animal and hoping to ease it with a tender voice and a smile

A lot of you would see a man doing it and call that man soft


If a man were to truly, live and breath the pure charity, humility, virtue and meekness Christ asks an individual to he would be labeled soft or feminine

I agree to a point and I did not mean to offend by generalizing. I too am in fairly good shape for a woman of my age. I can still present a decent time in a 5k, swing an axe, buck bales of hay.... etc.

That detracts nothing from my husband's physical strengths, which are superior to mine by far... even with his Parkinson's. I am a nurturer with deep empathy. He is solid as a rock. We complement each other. Yet, he is kind and gentle. (Yes, men can be gentle beasts)

I am not sure why you feel that masculinity is toxic? I am tough as nails due to my Wyoming mountain, country upbringing. Yet, I feel safe and secure in my husband's strong arms.

I have the capability of stopping an intruder in my home, yet I feel blessed that I can fall back and let my husband take the lead.

It is not a competition.... God gave both male and female bodies. Both with their strengths and weaknesses. Together we present an amazing front.

I am content to let men play the role they were given, and I will be in the kitchen baking bread.... While watching out the window, my shotgun in the corner just in case he needs backup.

[Fight for the right]

Men. You are made for greatness. So stand up and be men. You are made to be great and kind and gracious and to defend woman and children and to stand up for something and defend what's right and good, God will assist you. Are you obsessed with your own glory or the glory of God. These words came from Gianna Jesson when she spoke out against abortion in front of the Australian parliament. It's on you tube. One of the greatest talks I have ever heard.

[Momma J]

Men. You are made for greatness. So stand up and be men. You are made to be great and kind and gracious and to defend woman and children and to stand up for something and defend what's right and good, God will assist you. Are you obsessed with your own glory or the glory of God. These words came from Gianna Jesson when she spoke out against abortion in front of the Australian parliament. It's on you tube. One of the greatest talks I have ever heard.

Women. You too are made for greatness. So, stand up and support your men while they defend all that is good on the battle front. Let them know that you love them and be present when they need your inner strengths. Keep them on course and encourage them when they grow weary. Feed their hearts and their bellies. Make your home a place of peace from the storms.

Pray with them.... pray for them.

God will guide you and help you to nurture your family in a wholesome manner.

[Luke]

My observations are:

...that too many Mormon men follow a group of men that self select their members, rather than following their Lord and Master.

...and one big pet peeve that I have is when some guy in leadership basically says, "I suck, my wife is the best, smartest, most organized, etc. And without her I wouldn't be here."

Why is that a pet peeve? Because it's false modesty, and all I can think is what a loser, get his wife up there to speak to us.

Have seen this hundreds of times. It’s extremely cringeworthy.

[HereWeGo]

That being said: The real "problem" with today's LDS men is that they are either too lazy or too afraid to do hard work. They sit back and allow the Relief Society to do all the heavy lifting, while they come to church and sit passively in Elders Quorum. Yes, I've been in some VERY good Elders Quorum discussions, but I also feel like the men don't work as hard as the sisters do to try and serve and lead, both in the church AND in their families.

This right here.

The biggest mistake the church could do is to give the priesthood to the women. It wouldn't be every man, but most would say "Great! Let the women fill the positions typically filled by men." They will be happy to sit back and let the women carry the weight of their traditional callings. I think a common trait of men is to sit back and take it easy. I thank the Lord that I was blessed with ADHD and I can't seem to sit still. I use that to accomplish a lot in my life.

[HereWeGo]

Women. You too are made for greatness. So, stand up and support your men while they defend all that is good on the battle front. Let them know that you love them and be present when they need your inner strengths. Keep them on course and encourage them when they grow weary. Feed their hearts and their bellies. Make your home a place of peace from the storms.

Pray with them.... pray for them.

God will guide you and help you to nurture your family in a wholesome manner.

This is exactly what men need. There are not a lot of women who understand this.

I am happily married and wouldn't trade my wife for anyone. But, my first thought when I read this was "Where were you when I was single?"

[Bronco73idi]

LDS men often seek to be meek: what Christ describes as a beautiful man is far from what I think some in this thread are saying a man should be

I would love to press my BMI, overall health and endurance and overall strength against a lot of you “ real men “ on this forum and women telling me I should embrace a type of toxic masculinity. I’d love to compare my BMI with a lot of the women implying too many in LDS culture are feminine. Are you doing your part and offering something feminine, playful, exciting, pristine and beautiful? If you are not, who are you to be knocking men for falling short of what you deem to be manliness?

Christ is a gentle voice meekly reaching out to an injured animal and hoping to ease it with a tender voice and a smile

A lot of you would see a man doing it and call that man soft


If a man were to truly, live and breath the pure charity, humility, virtue and meekness Christ asks an individual to he would be labeled soft or feminine

Jesus is not meek, he loves his father and keeps his father’s commands.

John 8
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

[FrankOne]

The problem w/ LDS men... they often get their feelings hurt when someone disagrees with them.

it's a systemic problem that has made it's way into what once was a conservative group of traditional men. It's become an illness.

I read BTartarias posts and I agree that kindness is of paramount importance although I must say that if kindness means that a man is to a be 'soft' and 'cuddly' and be the type that takes offense and gets their feelings hurt, then that is not my definition of being kind and is unbecoming of a man. To each their own, though.