LDS Freedom Forum

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 2:28 pm What/who are the sticks?
When and how are they made one?
Was this successful under Joseph Smith?
What will this look like when the Marvelous Work and a Wonder resumes?
Who is over the two kingdoms made one?

Niemand wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 2:38 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 2:28 pm What/who are the sticks?
When and how are they made one?
Was this successful under Joseph Smith?
What will this look like when the Marvelous Work and a Wonder resumes?
Who is over the two kingdoms made one?

Scrolls were sometimes referred to as sticks because they were used to hold them.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 3:07 pm Mormon scholars say that, biblical scholars do not.

Middle English bok, from Old English boc "book, writing, written document," generally referred (despite phonetic difficulties) to Proto-Germanic *bōk(ō)-, from *bokiz "beech" (source also of German Buch "book" Buche "beech;" see beech), the notion being of beechwood tablets on which runes were inscribed; but it may be from the tree itself (people still carve initials in them).

Latin and Sanskrit also have words for "writing" that are based on tree names ("birch" and "ash," respectively). And compare French livre "book," from Latin librum, originally "the inner bark of trees" (see library).

Niemand wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 3:12 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 3:07 pm Mormon scholars say that, biblical scholars do not.

The link between books and trees/wood is pretty well attested in etymology. English, Latin and Sanskrit all have it. The English word "book" is relared to "beech".

https://www.etymonline.com/word/book

Middle English bok, from Old English boc "book, writing, written document," generally referred (despite phonetic difficulties) to Proto-Germanic *bōk(ō)-, from *bokiz "beech" (source also of German Buch "book" Buche "beech;" see beech), the notion being of beechwood tablets on which runes were inscribed; but it may be from the tree itself (people still carve initials in them).

Latin and Sanskrit also have words for "writing" that are based on tree names ("birch" and "ash," respectively). And compare French livre "book," from Latin librum, originally "the inner bark of trees" (see library).

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 3:28 pm

Niemand wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 3:12 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 3:07 pm Mormon scholars say that, biblical scholars do not.

The link between books and trees/wood is pretty well attested in etymology. English, Latin and Sanskrit all have it. The English word "book" is relared to "beech".

https://www.etymonline.com/word/book

Middle English bok, from Old English boc "book, writing, written document," generally referred (despite phonetic difficulties) to Proto-Germanic *bōk(ō)-, from *bokiz "beech" (source also of German Buch "book" Buche "beech;" see beech), the notion being of beechwood tablets on which runes were inscribed; but it may be from the tree itself (people still carve initials in them).

Latin and Sanskrit also have words for "writing" that are based on tree names ("birch" and "ash," respectively). And compare French livre "book," from Latin librum, originally "the inner bark of trees" (see library).

Sure, sticks come from trees, we get that, but even in scripture trees are used as a comparison to people; the trees of Lebanon means the people of Lebanon.

Also, ask yourself, what is a stick more often compared to, a staff or a scroll? Walking stick=Walking staff. They're almost completely interchangeable. How does a prophet see the gold plates in vision and misinterpret them for a stick, anyway?

The answer is in the verses in the OP. The two kingdoms joining are the two sticks joining.

I understand that Ezekiel 37 tugs on our Brighamite heart strings, but it's time to acknowledge we've inherited the precepts of men.

Niemand wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 3:39 pm Verses of scripture can have multiple meanings in them.

Lynn wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 6:32 pm Aaron had a rod (wand). Currently it is in the Ark, of which Elijah will retrieve as per Elijah's duties in the ancient texts. Moses had a staff (not an ordinary staff, such as for a shepherd).

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 4:28 pm

Niemand wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 3:39 pm Verses of scripture can have multiple meanings in them.

They can have multiple meanings, but that doesn't mean they have to or do, nor is that a good argument when the text is taking the reader in one specific direction.

What is written upon these sticks or staffs gives away what is being referenced. The stick/staff of Judah reads: For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions (Southern Kingdom language). The Stick/staff of Joseph reads: For Joseph, the Stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions (Northern Kingdom language).

I do concede that it makes some sense to refer to them as books of scripture because the staff holder of each kingdom will be responsible for bringing their record of their kingdom to the posterity of their specific kingdom.

"Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write (Northern Kingdom/Staff of Ephraim); and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write (Southern Kingdom/Staff of Judah); and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace..."

This is a future event, it hasn't happened yet. We have yet to confound false doctrines and lay down contentions. This prophecy is saying that both Judah and Ephraim will write again a second time, the "greater things" that are foretold to confirm the "lesser things" that have already gone forth.

I'll understand if I don't convince you though.

Luke wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 4:45 am Judah = political rights. Ephraim = spiritual rights.

Hence Joseph’s massive emphasis on Kings and Priests and the Council of Fifty (Priesthood and political authority rolled into one).

Niemand wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 3:03 am Of course there are other meanings. For one a stick indicates power and authority, since it is a type of club you can hit people and animals with. That's a very crude interpretation but it also fits what you say.

Niemand wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 2:38 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 2:28 pm What/who are the sticks?
When and how are they made one?
Was this successful under Joseph Smith?
What will this look like when the Marvelous Work and a Wonder resumes?
Who is over the two kingdoms made one?

Scrolls were sometimes referred to as sticks because they were used to hold them.

Lynn wrote: ↑March 21st, 2023, 1:45 am Hey Cruiserdude!

Hmm, my post got in 3 times. It kept telling me a post was submitted before & I kept resubmitting it. I gave up finally.

Sidenote ... Have been busy beyond belief. Elena is currently in Egypt ahead of me. Since the war started in Ukraine, daughter Helen was in Bucha & they managed to evacuate her & others before the atrocities occurred there. She got to Elena's on the opposite side south southeast side of Kiev. Then I convinced them to flee. So they wound up in Warsaw, Poland. From there, they went to Tbilisi, Georgia (capital of the country Georgia which also has one or two footholds of Putin), then to Ureki, Georgia (resort on the Black Sea). FRom there, they split up, daughter Helen flying to Moldova then by bus to Bucha (she has an apartment there she owns). Wife Elena took an offer of friends in Egypt to stay with them for free, as she recalled me saying a few years back that we may rendevous in the future in Egypt. She thought they lived near Sharm-El-Sheikh (city of Peace) on the southern tip of the Sinai Peninsula. However, it seems they were almost diagonal opposite near Alexandria in a remote village (this was in June). In November, she moved to Hurghada opposite across the Red Sea from Sharm-El-Sheikh. And she may move back with other new friends to Alexandria soon. She, Katya & Ahmed just went to the pyramids & Sphinx briefly this past Monday (13th). Interesting things have happened & if she goes back to Alexandria area, she will be closer to Giza plateau. Anyway, now instead of supporting two households, it is 3 now- mine, Elena near Hurghada, and Helen in Bucha. Mom had a dream in December. She & I both got COVid for Christmas. Guess what? I did from a guy at work unexpectedly, then she got it from me. She got too weak Christmas night & collapsed transferring to her Hoveround from another chair. So we had an ambulance come & get her. She was in the hospital a few days, then sent home before the weekend under partial hospice care. She passed on January 2nd. So, lots of changes being adjusted for the future.

In fact, Elena now just got on Skype & I texted her a brief while still writing this post. It seems the pebbles from the trip have arranged themselves differently beside her bed, as they seem to be emanating some type of energy or contact. She said she could feel the Energy when there & still now from the pebbles.

As to my recent Countdown to the Comet, I corrected a few errors and added some year coordinates in it. I sense that I will be in Egypt in 2024, 2 years before the comet. 2025 is the beginning of the teenage years (age 13) of this Mayan cycle 2012-2038. Hormones rage (comparison), meaning the Earth Changes become major. Time's up, gotta get going.