LDS Freedom Forum

https://centerplace.org/hs/iv/genesis.htm#c6

Genesis - Inspired Version

6:54 And our father Adam spake unto the Lord and said, Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water?

6:55 And the Lord said unto Adam, Behold, I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the garden of Eden.

6:56 Hence came the saying abroad among the people that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.

6:57 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying, Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so, when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts; and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

6:58 And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore, they are agents unto themselves.

6:59 And I have given unto you another law and commandment; wherefore, teach it unto your children that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in no wise inherit the kingdom of God.

6:60 For no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name; and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

6:61 Therefore, I give unto you a commandment to teach these things freely unto your children, saying that by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death; and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so become of dust a living soul,

6:62 Even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten, that ye may be sanctified from all sin and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world and eternal life in the world to come--even immortal glory.

6:63 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified; and by the blood ye are sanctified.

6:64 Therefore, it is given to abide in you the record of heaven, the Comforter, the peaceable things of immortal glory, the truth of all things, that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things, that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

6:65 And now, behold, I say unto you, This is the plan of salvation unto all men through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

6:66 And behold, all things have their likeness; and all things are created and made to bear record of me: both things which are temporal and things which are spiritual, things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath; all things bear record of me.

Any thoughts on this from anyone who feels they have a grasp of what's being taught?

As I studied this today, here's is what grabbed my attention:

it is given to abide in you the record of heaven, the Comforter, the peaceable things of immortal glory, the truth of all things, that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things, that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

Which ties to:

1 John 5

First John - Inspired Version
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; and everyone that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God--when we love God and keep his commandments.

5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments; and his commandments are not grievous.

5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world; and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ--not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness because the Spirit is truth.

5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.

5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.

5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself; he that believeth not God hath made him a liar because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

5:11 And this is the record: that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God--that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may continue to believe on the name of the Son of God.

5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him--that, if we ask anything according to his will, he heareth us;

5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask; and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death; I do not say that he shall pray for it.

5:17 All unrighteousness is sin; and there is a sin not unto death.

5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God continueth not in sin; but he that is begotten of God and keepeth himself, that wicked one overcometh him not.

5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

What is this record in heaven?

Not sure what it means - it's hidden to me at the moment. Any help anyone can offer is welcome. Thanks!

endlessQuestions wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 9:33 am https://centerplace.org/hs/iv/genesis.htm#c6

Genesis - Inspired Version

6:54 And our father Adam spake unto the Lord and said, Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water?

6:55 And the Lord said unto Adam, Behold, I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the garden of Eden.

6:56 Hence came the saying abroad among the people that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.

6:57 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying, Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so, when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts; and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

6:58 And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore, they are agents unto themselves.

6:59 And I have given unto you another law and commandment; wherefore, teach it unto your children that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in no wise inherit the kingdom of God.

6:60 For no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name; and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

6:61 Therefore, I give unto you a commandment to teach these things freely unto your children, saying that by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death; and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so become of dust a living soul,

6:62 Even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten, that ye may be sanctified from all sin and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world and eternal life in the world to come--even immortal glory.

6:63 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified; and by the blood ye are sanctified.

6:64 Therefore, it is given to abide in you the record of heaven, the Comforter, the peaceable things of immortal glory, the truth of all things, that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things, that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

6:65 And now, behold, I say unto you, This is the plan of salvation unto all men through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

6:66 And behold, all things have their likeness; and all things are created and made to bear record of me: both things which are temporal and things which are spiritual, things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath; all things bear record of me.

Any thoughts on this from anyone who feels they have a grasp of what's being taught?

Which part?

endlessQuestions wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 9:46 am What is this record in heaven?

Not sure what it means - it's hidden to me at the moment. Any help anyone can offer is welcome. Thanks!

The record, in part is the testimony of the Spirit about the Father and the Son, even of immortal glory.

But beyond that is also the knowledge that exists in every soul of the true nature of God and of who we really are.

That centerplace website has some interesting material. From what I understand, it's essentially a break off of the Community of Christ that seeks to maintain the older ways and traditions of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I don't know if it's hosted there anymore, but they used to have episodes of this old radio show (I want to say from around the 1950s or 1960s) of a devout RLDS believer who record his ruminations on scripture and that church. I listened to an episode. There was a charm to it from it being a novel moment from a different time (a gentlemen believing the Book of Mormon but his belief of it had him in a small, different church with different traditions) captured and preserved for availability to listen to it in a world very different from 1950s America.

If anyone's interested in this group's interpretation of Mormonism, I think that website has resources for communicating with them.

BuriedTartaria wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 9:53 am That centerplace website has some interesting material. From what I understand, it's essentially a break off of the Community of Christ that seeks to maintain the older ways and traditions of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I don't know if it's hosted there anymore, but they used to have episodes of this old radio show (I want to say from around the 1950s or 1960s) of a devout RLDS believer who record his ruminations on scripture and that church. I listened to an episode. There was a charm to it from it being a novel moment from a different time (a gentlemen believing the Book of Mormon but his belief of it had him in a small, different church with different traditions) captured and preserved for availability to listen to it in a world very different from 1950s America.

If anyone's interested in this group's interpretation of Mormonism, I think that website has resources for communicating with them.

I've only used it for the scriptures, since my Church doesn't have access to them.

I'll have to look at the other resources at some point, to. Thanks!

endlessQuestions wrote: ↑March 19th, 2023, 9:46 am As I studied this today, here's is what grabbed my attention:

it is given to abide in you the record of heaven, the Comforter, the peaceable things of immortal glory, the truth of all things, that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things, that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

Which ties to:

1 John 5

First John - Inspired Version
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; and everyone that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God--when we love God and keep his commandments.

5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments; and his commandments are not grievous.

5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world; and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ--not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness because the Spirit is truth.

5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.

5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.

5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself; he that believeth not God hath made him a liar because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

5:11 And this is the record: that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God--that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may continue to believe on the name of the Son of God.

5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him--that, if we ask anything according to his will, he heareth us;

5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask; and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death; I do not say that he shall pray for it.

5:17 All unrighteousness is sin; and there is a sin not unto death.

5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God continueth not in sin; but he that is begotten of God and keepeth himself, that wicked one overcometh him not.

5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

What is this record in heaven?

Not sure what it means - it's hidden to me at the moment. Any help anyone can offer is welcome. Thanks!

The record in Heaven is the Holy Ghost.

Good eye(?), yes these two passages from JST Genesis 6 and John 5 go hand in hand.

At their core, they are talking about the Doctrine of Christ, the plan of salvation, etc. And move into the territory of a more sure word of prophecy and calling & election made sure. The baptisms of water, fire, and blood.

These things I think you understand so what are you asking?

ransomme wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 10:07 am Good eye(?), yes these two passages from JST Genesis 6 and John 5 go hand in hand.

At their core, they are talking about the Doctrine of Christ, the plan of salvation, etc. And move into the territory of a more sure word of prophecy and calling & election made sure. The baptisms of water, fire, and blood.

These things I think you understand so what are you asking?

Not sure.

I had never seen the Comforter described as the record in Heaven for some reason. It's certainly not the answer you hear in Sunday School.

It struck me very forcefully yesterday during my study, so I thought I'd see if others have already studied the topic, and had any insight.

In reading the Inspired Version, I'm struck by how ironic it is that we constantly talk about the "plain and precious truths" that were removed from the Bible, while not using the scriptures that actually restore those plain and precious truths. That must have really burned Brigham's bonnet.

endlessQuestions wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 11:17 am

ransomme wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 10:07 am Good eye(?), yes these two passages from JST Genesis 6 and John 5 go hand in hand.

At their core, they are talking about the Doctrine of Christ, the plan of salvation, etc. And move into the territory of a more sure word of prophecy and calling & election made sure. The baptisms of water, fire, and blood.

These things I think you understand so what are you asking?

Not sure.

I had never seen the Comforter described as the record in Heaven for some reason. It's certainly not the answer you here in Sunday School.

It struck me very forcefully yesterday during my study, so I thought I'd see if others have already studied the topic, and had any insight.

In reading the Inspired Version, I'm struck by how ironic it is that we constantly talk about the "plain and precious truths" that were removed from the Bible, while not using the scriptures that actually restore those plain and precious truths. That must have really burned Brigham's bonnet.

I have often thought and said that JST Genesis 6 (Moses 6) is one of the most doctrinally rich chapters in all of scripture. The plainness, the precious parts, the covenants, the patterns. It's all there.

Personally, I see the "the record of heaven;" description pertaining to the Holy Ghost's role of Testator, Witness, and Teacher. By the Holy Ghost, we are to receive and also deliver the counsel of God, speaking by the tongue of angels.

It is also connected to the priesthood. Let me throw out a few verses and say, that it is not a coincidence that the Holy Ghost is word-linked in scripture with words like prophecy, priesthood, language, speech, etc.

JST Genesis
6:5 And then began these men to call upon the name of the Lord; and the Lord blessed them; and a book of remembrance was kept in the which was recorded in the language of Adam, for it was given unto as many as called upon God to write by the Spirit of inspiration;
6:6 And by them their children were taught to read and write, having a language which was pure and undefiled.
6:7 Now this same priesthood which was in the beginning shall be in the end of the world also.
6:8 Now this prophecy Adam spake as he was moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 32
2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ

Numbers 11
25 Then Yahweh came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again.

1 Nephi 10
22 And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.

D&C 121 (no more authority if the Spirit withdraws)
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

Helaman 10 (I think this is by the record of heaven)
7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.

1 Corinthians 12 (IMO, at some point we conflated gifts of the spirit with the priesthood, bt that is a longer discussion)
1 With regard to spiritual gifts, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans you were often led astray by speechless idols, however you were led. 3 So I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
4 Now there are different gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are different ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are different results, but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. 7 To each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the benefit of all. 8 For one person is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, and another the message of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another performance of miracles, to another prophecy, and to another discernment of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 It is one and the same Spirit, distributing as he decides to each person, who produces all these things.

ransomme wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 2:21 pm

endlessQuestions wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 11:17 am

ransomme wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 10:07 am Good eye(?), yes these two passages from JST Genesis 6 and John 5 go hand in hand.

At their core, they are talking about the Doctrine of Christ, the plan of salvation, etc. And move into the territory of a more sure word of prophecy and calling & election made sure. The baptisms of water, fire, and blood.

These things I think you understand so what are you asking?

Not sure.

I had never seen the Comforter described as the record in Heaven for some reason. It's certainly not the answer you here in Sunday School.

It struck me very forcefully yesterday during my study, so I thought I'd see if others have already studied the topic, and had any insight.

In reading the Inspired Version, I'm struck by how ironic it is that we constantly talk about the "plain and precious truths" that were removed from the Bible, while not using the scriptures that actually restore those plain and precious truths. That must have really burned Brigham's bonnet.

I have often thought and said that JST Genesis 6 (Moses 6) is one of the most doctrinally rich chapters in all of scripture. The plainness, the precious parts, the covenants, the patterns. It's all there.

Personally, I see the "the record of heaven;" description pertaining to the Holy Ghost's role of Testator, Witness, and Teacher. By the Holy Ghost, we are to receive and also deliver the counsel of God, speaking by the tongue of angels.

It is also connected to the priesthood. Let me throw out a few verses and say, that it is not a coincidence that the Holy Ghost is word-linked in scripture with words like prophecy, priesthood, language, speech, etc.

JST Genesis
6:5 And then began these men to call upon the name of the Lord; and the Lord blessed them; and a book of remembrance was kept in the which was recorded in the language of Adam, for it was given unto as many as called upon God to write by the Spirit of inspiration;
6:6 And by them their children were taught to read and write, having a language which was pure and undefiled.
6:7 Now this same priesthood which was in the beginning shall be in the end of the world also.
6:8 Now this prophecy Adam spake as he was moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 32
2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ

Numbers 11
25 Then Yahweh came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again.

1 Nephi 10
22 And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.

D&C 121 (no more authority if the Spirit withdraws)
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

Helaman 10 (I think this is by the record of heaven)
7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.

1 Corinthians 12 (IMO, at some point we conflated gifts of the spirit with the priesthood, bt that is a longer discussion)
1 With regard to spiritual gifts, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans you were often led astray by speechless idols, however you were led. 3 So I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
4 Now there are different gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are different ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are different results, but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. 7 To each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the benefit of all. 8 For one person is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, and another the message of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another performance of miracles, to another prophecy, and to another discernment of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 It is one and the same Spirit, distributing as he decides to each person, who produces all these things.

Excellent. This is exactly what I was looking for to kick start a great study. Thanks!

endlessQuestions wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 11:17 am

ransomme wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 10:07 am Good eye(?), yes these two passages from JST Genesis 6 and John 5 go hand in hand.

At their core, they are talking about the Doctrine of Christ, the plan of salvation, etc. And move into the territory of a more sure word of prophecy and calling & election made sure. The baptisms of water, fire, and blood.

These things I think you understand so what are you asking?

Not sure.

I had never seen the Comforter described as the record in Heaven for some reason. It's certainly not the answer you hear in Sunday School.

It struck me very forcefully yesterday during my study, so I thought I'd see if others have already studied the topic, and had any insight.

In reading the Inspired Version, I'm struck by how ironic it is that we constantly talk about the "plain and precious truths" that were removed from the Bible, while not using the scriptures that actually restore those plain and precious truths. That must have really burned Brigham's bonnet.

Brigham taught the things Jospeh taught the first Presidency in secret. You know that Presidency that the lord promised that wouldn’t lead the people astray D&C 112:20. That verse was about those men directly and could be a blessing to their successors if they didn’t break the everlasting covenant.

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 3:58 pm

endlessQuestions wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 11:17 am

ransomme wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 10:07 am Good eye(?), yes these two passages from JST Genesis 6 and John 5 go hand in hand.

At their core, they are talking about the Doctrine of Christ, the plan of salvation, etc. And move into the territory of a more sure word of prophecy and calling & election made sure. The baptisms of water, fire, and blood.

These things I think you understand so what are you asking?

Not sure.

I had never seen the Comforter described as the record in Heaven for some reason. It's certainly not the answer you hear in Sunday School.

It struck me very forcefully yesterday during my study, so I thought I'd see if others have already studied the topic, and had any insight.

In reading the Inspired Version, I'm struck by how ironic it is that we constantly talk about the "plain and precious truths" that were removed from the Bible, while not using the scriptures that actually restore those plain and precious truths. That must have really burned Brigham's bonnet.

Brigham taught the things Jospeh taught the first Presidency in secret. You know that Presidency that the lord promised that wouldn’t lead the people astray D&C 112:20. That verse was about those men directly and could be a blessing to their successors if they didn’t break the everlasting covenant.

minor issue with your scenario, B.Young wasn't in the First Presidency. I wonder how B.Young learned of those secret things. Especially with the time he spent on missions receiving his own revelations on polygamy, even before Joseph.

EQ, just a few other thoughts that may have value in your study of this topic, as indicated by their existence in the texts cited in the OP.

Looking at baptism/washing/water in connection with states (ie. carnal or fallen vs righteous) for context. (cf. Mosiah 27:24-25)

• justification; remission of sins

• sanctification; continuing in the grace of God or continuing in righteousness; purify

Some imagery, as it relates to justification and sanctification:

• robe of righteousness and clothed with purity (2 Nephi 9:14)

• armor of righteousness (Moses 6:59, "dust a living soul" x 2 Nep. 1:23, "arise from the dust")

Related verses: 1 Cor. 6:11; D&C 20:30-31; Mosiah 18:16; 3 Nep. 27:20; 1 Nep. 21:10; Mosiah 18:26 x Alma 17:3-4
Tangential verse: D&C 84:23

Something to consider, as it pertains to justification and sanctification. Is there a difference between the gift of the Holy Ghost and the power of the Holy Ghost? Or is it simply a distinction between two of the roles of the HG (cf. 1 Nep. 10:17 x D&C 20:35 ) I think this is also an interesting note as it crosses-over with ransomme's post above about the tongue of angels, spoken and written.

Moses 6

64 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water.
65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.
66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;

ransomme wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 4:41 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 3:58 pm

endlessQuestions wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 11:17 am

Not sure.

I had never seen the Comforter described as the record in Heaven for some reason. It's certainly not the answer you hear in Sunday School.

It struck me very forcefully yesterday during my study, so I thought I'd see if others have already studied the topic, and had any insight.

In reading the Inspired Version, I'm struck by how ironic it is that we constantly talk about the "plain and precious truths" that were removed from the Bible, while not using the scriptures that actually restore those plain and precious truths. That must have really burned Brigham's bonnet.

Brigham taught the things Jospeh taught the first Presidency in secret. You know that Presidency that the lord promised that wouldn’t lead the people astray D&C 112:20. That verse was about those men directly and could be a blessing to their successors if they didn’t break the everlasting covenant.

minor issue with your scenario, B.Young wasn't in the First Presidency. I wonder how B.Young learned of those secret things. Especially with the time he spent on missions receiving his own revelations on polygamy, even before Joseph.

112 1837, he included the 12 consolers in verse 21…… weird that you are always wrong….. I bet D&C is wrong…. Fanny may allegations was 1834 and BY was an apostle in 1835. I’m sure he made all it up……

I personally hate this drama that you guys love, lord said he will have 3 servants, third one will fail him. Lord quoted king David to many times to ignore. David would have been award as many wives as he wanted but he messed up. Nathan is probably a fake prophet too to you guys.

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 6:22 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 4:41 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 3:58 pm

Brigham taught the things Jospeh taught the first Presidency in secret. You know that Presidency that the lord promised that wouldn’t lead the people astray D&C 112:20. That verse was about those men directly and could be a blessing to their successors if they didn’t break the everlasting covenant.

minor issue with your scenario, B.Young wasn't in the First Presidency. I wonder how B.Young learned of those secret things. Especially with the time he spent on missions receiving his own revelations on polygamy, even before Joseph.

112 1837, he included the 12 consolers in verse 21…… weird that you are always wrong….. I bet D&C is wrong…. Fanny may allegations was 1834 and BY was an apostle in 1835. I’m sure he made all it up……

I personally hate this drama that you guys love, lord said he will have 3 servants, third one will fail him. Lord quoted king David to many times to ignore. David would have been award as many wives as he wanted but he messed up. Nathan is probably a fake prophet too to you guys.

Did, Dude, I trusted you. You said first presidency. Last time I'm going to do that .

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

ransomme wrote: ↑March 21st, 2023, 12:03 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 6:22 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 4:41 pm

minor issue with your scenario, B.Young wasn't in the First Presidency. I wonder how B.Young learned of those secret things. Especially with the time he spent on missions receiving his own revelations on polygamy, even before Joseph.

112 1837, he included the 12 consolers in verse 21…… weird that you are always wrong….. I bet D&C is wrong…. Fanny may allegations was 1834 and BY was an apostle in 1835. I’m sure he made all it up……

I personally hate this drama that you guys love, lord said he will have 3 servants, third one will fail him. Lord quoted king David to many times to ignore. David would have been award as many wives as he wanted but he messed up. Nathan is probably a fake prophet too to you guys.

Did, I trusted you. You said first presidency. Last time I'm going to do that .

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Don’t trust me, I’m clumpy dirt

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑March 21st, 2023, 12:09 am

ransomme wrote: ↑March 21st, 2023, 12:03 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 6:22 pm

112 1837, he included the 12 consolers in verse 21…… weird that you are always wrong….. I bet D&C is wrong…. Fanny may allegations was 1834 and BY was an apostle in 1835. I’m sure he made all it up……

I personally hate this drama that you guys love, lord said he will have 3 servants, third one will fail him. Lord quoted king David to many times to ignore. David would have been award as many wives as he wanted but he messed up. Nathan is probably a fake prophet too to you guys.

Did, I trusted you. You said first presidency. Last time I'm going to do that .

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Don’t trust me, I’m clumpy dirt

Just in case you didn't catch it earlier, both those posts were a bit of sarcasm.

I'll be direct with you bronco, it is hard to take your posts seriously. Often times you don't even take them seriously, so this shouldn't come as a surprise.

Most likely this RECORD is referencing the NAME (the very SOUND/LOGOS aka Divine Word/Sound-Vibration-Complex of the Law of ONE/GODSPELL aka GOD SPELL aka Divine Name) that built everything there is. In the Welsh story of Creation, the LOGOS doctrine of John 1 reads as follows ... "In the Beginning were the Triple Shouts (or Three Shouts) ... "

Explained further as this ... "God, when there was in life and existence only Himself, proclaimed His Name, and co-instantaneously with the word all living and existing things burst wholly into a shout of joy; and that Voice was the most melodious that ever was heard in music. C-instantaneously with the Voice was light, and in the light, form, and the voice was in three tones, three vocalizations, pronounced together at the same moment."

It is noted that this (Record) GOSPEL will be preached in the future (of which is reference to our time of the "latter days before the renewal) . The word Gospel is actually derived from the term or dual word God Spell which meant "Divine Name", akin to Logos which means "Divine Word". In the ancient texts, it was Michael who appeared at the Burning Bush to Moses, who asked what was His Sacred Name. Even though the phrase I AM THAT I AM is inserted here, later it is revealed that Moses was given the Tetragrammaton IHVH which is what we read as rendered versions such as Jehovah, Yahweh, and Yahveh, etc.

IHVH is also known among the Gnostics as IAO or IEU (Jeu or Jew), which is a 3 vowel representation of the Triple Shouts noted above. It is a shortened form, as is the IVH (of IHVH). The Gnostics spoke of it as the Mystery of the 7 Vowels in which all powers & lights are derived. In Hebrew, it is basically a consonasntal alphabet as the Vowels were deemed sacred. Herein is the mystery, the 7 vowels are blended intio 3 syllables or tones, in as they are ONE Word or Sound, yet Three (here is the actual Trinity being expressed as a Father, Spirit, & Son, or the Trimurti of the Hindu comprehension- Brahman the Creator, Shiva the Destroyer/Transformer, and Vishnu the Preserver/Healer/Restorer). Each syllable has the 3 original powers inherent- that which creates/ that which destroys/transforms/converts/ that which heals/preserves/saves/restores.

In essence, or a scientific manner of interpretation, this is E = MC2, in which "E" is the first, "=" is the conversion or transformative, and "MC2" is the last. Simply put, it is Spirit & Element being converted back & forth (in the D&C), or Energy & Matter. It is almost time that this Record, Gospel (aka the God Spell) or Logos Doctrine, be taught once again to those that avoid the pettiness of mankind, and seek the higher good of the Law of ONE. To them, they are given the Higher Powers becoming the sons & daughters of the True Light.

In one of the books referenced & read by Nostradamus- "De Mysteriis Egyptorum", or 'On the Mysteries of the Egyptians, etc.' by Iamblichus, the NAME is written as IAW which is yet another way of expressing IAO/IEU/IHV and it explains that God engraved His NAME (IAW) into everything in the universe, be it Spiritual or Physical.

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 3:58 pm

endlessQuestions wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 11:17 am

ransomme wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 10:07 am Good eye(?), yes these two passages from JST Genesis 6 and John 5 go hand in hand.

At their core, they are talking about the Doctrine of Christ, the plan of salvation, etc. And move into the territory of a more sure word of prophecy and calling & election made sure. The baptisms of water, fire, and blood.

These things I think you understand so what are you asking?

Not sure.

I had never seen the Comforter described as the record in Heaven for some reason. It's certainly not the answer you hear in Sunday School.

It struck me very forcefully yesterday during my study, so I thought I'd see if others have already studied the topic, and had any insight.

In reading the Inspired Version, I'm struck by how ironic it is that we constantly talk about the "plain and precious truths" that were removed from the Bible, while not using the scriptures that actually restore those plain and precious truths. That must have really burned Brigham's bonnet.

Brigham taught the things Jospeh taught the first Presidency in secret. You know that Presidency that the lord promised that wouldn’t lead the people astray D&C 112:20. That verse was about those men directly and could be a blessing to their successors if they didn’t break the everlasting covenant.

Correction. Brigham stated he taught the things that Joseph taught the first presidency in secret. Brigham made a career out of the secret things Joseph supposedly told him.

Mindfields wrote: ↑March 21st, 2023, 6:22 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 3:58 pm

endlessQuestions wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 11:17 am

Not sure.

I had never seen the Comforter described as the record in Heaven for some reason. It's certainly not the answer you hear in Sunday School.

It struck me very forcefully yesterday during my study, so I thought I'd see if others have already studied the topic, and had any insight.

In reading the Inspired Version, I'm struck by how ironic it is that we constantly talk about the "plain and precious truths" that were removed from the Bible, while not using the scriptures that actually restore those plain and precious truths. That must have really burned Brigham's bonnet.

Brigham taught the things Jospeh taught the first Presidency in secret. You know that Presidency that the lord promised that wouldn’t lead the people astray D&C 112:20. That verse was about those men directly and could be a blessing to their successors if they didn’t break the everlasting covenant.

Correction. Brigham stated he taught the things that Joseph taught the first presidency in secret. Brigham made a career out of the secret things Joseph supposedly told him.

Yes he did, it’s a double edge sword

Jospeh taught Adam is God in secret and by all indications was planning on teaching it publicly when he got to the Rockies, where they would be safe.

May 4th 1842

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.”

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

As to the Adam-God theory or doctrine, Joseph Smith understood what he could of it, but did not have all the details or comprehension in the 1800s. Even upon his death, I am sure he was still wrestling with trying to sort it completely out to where it might be understood correctly, without error.

In what is called the First Vision, of which there are at least 6 versions, the ones that speak of two personages appearing to him are the following: The first one was Michael, the archangel, the Prince of the Presence, the 7th angel. He is the one referred to, or you may realize as "Father". The second, or the one that the first speaks of by saying, "This is my Beloved Son, hear Him." One account says these he "saw two glorious personages who exactly resembled each other in features, and likeness." In other words, they looked identical. The second was referred to as Son by the first. Many identify it as being Jesus. This is correct. However, the understanding of this Father & Son, are as follows. Michael is also referred to as the Word. One descriptive term of him is "Deus Angelorum", which means "God/god of the angels". In the ancient Hebrew/Jewish texts, Michael is God's representative. His name is revealed as "he who like God" or "he is likened to God". He is mankind's "intercessor" to God, meaning he takes the prayers to God. But you may not know it, but the ancient texts also tell us that it was Michael who appeared to Moses at the Burning Bush. It was Moses that asked what his NAME was. While that narrative gives us I AM that I AM, the term means, "existence is existence". Further though in the OT, it is revealed that the Word or Name which Moses sought was IHVH which makes up Jehovah, Yahweh, Yahveh & so on. In the D&C, it is shared that before Adam's death, they acknowledge that Adam was also Michael, the prince, even the archangel.

It was not that Adam died, then became Michael. But as you recall, we are spirit first, then physical secondary. In other words, Michael projected a portion of himself as the one you refer to as Adam. Michael is what you might call the Angelic Self, the OverSoul, or the Higher Self. Michael's duties in the Jewish understanding, is exactly what Jesus' duties are. Jesus, is in a sense, a son of Michael (but not as what you might think, as he was another projection of Michael into the physical plane. Herein lies an equation- Adam-ondi-Ahman (the Father & the Son, the First & the Last. He or she who starts a thing, must be the very one to end a thing. That is just the rules of the "game", In another group, it is found that Adam & Jesus are the same soul, and that they have participated in incarnations other than just those two. Michael also has projected as Melkizedek, Joseph of Egypt and Joshua the high Priest (alongside Moses & Aaron) just to name a few. If you were to look up the scriptures noted as "Joseph & Aseneth", Aseneth declares that Michael appeared to her & told her she would become Joseph's wife. Aseneth shares that Michael looked identical to Joseph, but more "angelic". This is found in 'The Apocryphal Old Testament' edited by H.F.D. Sparks (1984 HB/ 1987 Reprint PB) "Joseph & Aseneth" 14:1-10 (on pp.486-487 in 1987 Rep.PB). I think the same pages in the 1984 HB as well. In 6:2 &6:6-7 Joseph is spoken of as the son of God. There is even a special twist, as Michael expresses that her name will no longer be Aseneth, but "city of refuge". This is in 15:5-6 & you might wonder why this is important. Because there is more to the story. See D&C 45 (RLDS-CoC verse 12c/ LDS verse 66). The same term is being used here to describe Zion/New Jerusalem. And elsewhere, Jerusalem & Ariel are further word plays in this context. But you now see why the Adam-God theory or doctrine just could not be fathomed even by Joseph Smith in his era.

It is listed in the ancient texts that there are 4 angels appointed to the Sword of Life- the NAME/WORD. They are Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel. Of these 4, Michael & Gabriel are considered to be the guardian angels of Israel (the people of the light). I am not talking of people who are currently in the land known as Israel, but those souls around the globe who are of the true Is-rael, the Crystal race, the very first race to inhabit this planet. We'll pause here for now.

So Michael = Adam = Jesus = Melchizedek = Joshua = Joseph

So the same person is playing all of the important roles in this “game”? Why doesn’t he get down here again then and fix this crap that’s going on?

Lynn wrote: ↑March 21st, 2023, 9:37 pm As to the Adam-God theory or doctrine, Joseph Smith understood what he could of it, but did not have all the details or comprehension in the 1800s. Even upon his death, I am sure he was still wrestling with trying to sort it completely out to where it might be understood correctly, without error.

In what is called the First Vision, of which there are at least 6 versions, the ones that speak of two personages appearing to him are the following: The first one was Michael, the archangel, the Prince of the Presence, the 7th angel. He is the one referred to, or you may realize as "Father". The second, or the one that the first speaks of by saying, "This is my Beloved Son, hear Him." One account says these he "saw two glorious personages who exactly resembled each other in features, and likeness." In other words, they looked identical. The second was referred to as Son by the first. Many identify it as being Jesus. This is correct. However, the understanding of this Father & Son, are as follows. Michael is also referred to as the Word. One descriptive term of him is "Deus Angelorum", which means "God/god of the angels". In the ancient Hebrew/Jewish texts, Michael is God's representative. His name is revealed as "he who like God" or "he is likened to God". He is mankind's "intercessor" to God, meaning he takes the prayers to God. But you may not know it, but the ancient texts also tell us that it was Michael who appeared to Moses at the Burning Bush. It was Moses that asked what his NAME was. While that narrative gives us I AM that I AM, the term means, "existence is existence". Further though in the OT, it is revealed that the Word or Name which Moses sought was IHVH which makes up Jehovah, Yahweh, Yahveh & so on. In the D&C, it is shared that before Adam's death, they acknowledge that Adam was also Michael, the prince, even the archangel.

It was not that Adam died, then became Michael. But as you recall, we are spirit first, then physical secondary. In other words, Michael projected a portion of himself as the one you refer to as Adam. Michael is what you might call the Angelic Self, the OverSoul, or the Higher Self. Michael's duties in the Jewish understanding, is exactly what Jesus' duties are. Jesus, is in a sense, a son of Michael (but not as what you might think, as he was another projection of Michael into the physical plane. Herein lies an equation- Adam-ondi-Ahman (the Father & the Son, the First & the Last. He or she who starts a thing, must be the very one to end a thing. That is just the rules of the "game", In another group, it is found that Adam & Jesus are the same soul, and that they have participated in incarnations other than just those two. Michael also has projected as Melkizedek, Joseph of Egypt and Joshua the high Priest (alongside Moses & Aaron) just to name a few. If you were to look up the scriptures noted as "Joseph & Aseneth", Aseneth declares that Michael appeared to her & told her she would become Joseph's wife. Aseneth shares that Michael looked identical to Joseph, but more "angelic". This is found in 'The Apocryphal Old Testament' edited by H.F.D. Sparks (1984 HB/ 1987 Reprint PB) "Joseph & Aseneth" 14:1-10 (on pp.486-487 in 1987 Rep.PB). I think the same pages in the 1984 HB as well. In 6:2 &6:6-7 Joseph is spoken of as the son of God. There is even a special twist, as Michael expresses that her name will no longer be Aseneth, but "city of refuge". This is in 15:5-6 & you might wonder why this is important. Because there is more to the story. See D&C 45 (RLDS-CoC verse 12c/ LDS verse 66). The same term is being used here to describe Zion/New Jerusalem. And elsewhere, Jerusalem & Ariel are further word plays in this context. But you now see why the Adam-God theory or doctrine just could not be fathomed even by Joseph Smith in his era.

It is listed in the ancient texts that there are 4 angels appointed to the Sword of Life- the NAME/WORD. They are Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel. Of these 4, Michael & Gabriel are considered to be the guardian angels of Israel (the people of the light). I am not talking of people who are currently in the land known as Israel, but those souls around the globe who are of the true Is-rael, the Crystal race, the very first race to inhabit this planet. We'll pause here for now.

That above statement is actually laughable. And so what, you come along and understand it completely? Joseph very well understood that and much more than you and I probably ever will. After all, He met Him multiple times. Plus he was a seer and a visionary man. Joseph knew exactly what Adam was, and taught BY and others of his intimate circle accordingly.

In answer to the first note (comment) made, as to coming & fixing everything. Then would we ever learn anything? The one we refer to as Jesus, the Master, has done his work on this plane. It is mankind's turn to step up to bat. Sort of like we will meet in the middle As to what most think of as the Return, it can only be made possibly when the Way has been cleared. But first this cycle must run its course & runs from 2012 to 2038 (the culmination of the current Mayan cycle). The Mayan Elders never said havoc would begin in 2012, as Hollywood & others have portrayed. They compare this 26 year cycle to a human that is born & ages towards 26 (adulthood, or at least tempered adult). It is when the child become 13, that the hormones rage. Or in other words, the 13th year of this cycle becomes evident that greater changes across the board are coming. Not just geographical, but in about any manner.

As to the second note (comment), I assure you, laughable it is not. Just because one is a seer, they do not comprehend everything. This even applies to Nostradamus. And to Joseph Smith. Even to John the Baptist, who had been Elijah, of whom Jesus refers to as the greatest of the seers, in the AG version of the New Testament. And in the IV of JS, John will again preach & many will be condemned because they did not pay attention (see IV Matthew 21:34 & 17:9-14 of RLDS-CoC. In the Gnostic Gospels, Jesus claims that John the Baptist (Elijah come again) is at the head of prophecy, but the disciples were asking about how they should prophesy & he told them its "head" had been removed (for now).

If you look at the Lord & the servant of the vineyard parable, what is the most important thing being overlooked? It is Time. Yes, it is the same Lord & the same servant who continue to nurture the vineyard in different ways over TIME. As I noted, Michael (Lord) & Gabriel (servant) are the celestial guardians of the true Israel. In Daniel 12, these two are conversing "across the river" or I should working on different levels, one from a higher perspective (Michael), while the other (Gabriel) is working on the physical plane. In several prophecies, it seems the keys of the Restoration are in Joseph Smith's possession. In fact, Parley Pratt was given the assurance that even though Joseph had just been murdered, he would stand again in the flesh to fulfill his keys. Yet, here & there in LDS D&C you have inferences here & there that point to it being Elijah (Hebrew version) or Elias (Greek version). Had you read the unique vision of Oliver Cowdery (referred to as a Patriarchal Blessing). Oliver was not only shown but told of the future of Joseph. It speaks of him having an encounter like Jacob, in which reminisces of the enigmatic "John Peniel" (reference to the Peniel experience & the pineal gland which is a bridge) of the Edgar Cayce Readings & the Paul Solomon Readings, but Oliver notes that Joseph Smith is to have this experience (in a future TIME). Oliver also states Joseph is yet to have an experience with Michael, similar to what Moses encountered. And that Joseph & Oliver are to gather Israel, but yet on the other hand it is supposed to be assigned to Elijah (including that which is derived from ancient texts, some of which is shared in 'The Legends of the Jews' compiled by Louis Ginzberg. How can this be, that Joseph Smith, John the Baptist, Elijah, and a future person, all seemed to be assigned or given the keys to restore all things? It would mean that these are different TIME incarnations of the very same soul or projections of Gabriel, the servant of the vineyard. Simply put, Elijah came also as Joseph Smith, jr.

Joseph only started trying to convey what he could comprehend towards his later years. That right there leans in my favor. The same goes to him teaching the Grand Key WORD (NAME), it was in his last few years. And yet, that is how he summoned Michael in the First Vision, just as the Brother of Jared (Peleg) would do (except Michael would appear as a cloud).