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My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 1:10 am
by GeeR
My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents
By Chuck Baldwin
March 16, 2023



To be sure, it’s quite a challenge to try and pick America’s top ten worst presidents when so many qualify for the distinction. But then again, I am personally quite convinced that the ones who made my list truly deserve their ignoble entry.

So here goes: America’s top ten worst presidents.

1. Abraham Lincoln (Republican)

Without an ounce of doubt in my mind, Abraham Lincoln is America’s absolute worst president. He did not free a single slave; but what he did do was begin the process of enslaving free men. It is no hyperbole to say that Lincoln truly governed as a dictator, not as a President.

Virtually every single problem we are having today (and have had ever since Lincoln’s presidency) with an overbearing, encroaching, authoritarian federal government in Washington, D.C., came as a result of Abraham Lincoln’s presidency. EVERY SINGLE ONE!

Abraham Lincoln destroyed the Washington/Jeffersonian model of American government and replaced it with an imperial White House. His own statements prove that he cared absolutely nothing for the black race and was indeed himself a racist—unlike many leaders of the Confederacy, such as Robert E. Lee, Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson, etc., who publicly and adamantly spoke in support of the end of slavery and never said anything remotely derogatory or racist against the black people.

Beyond that, in his first inaugural address, Lincoln actually supported an amendment to the U.S. Constitution proposed by Ohio Congressman Thomas Corwin (which would have been the 13th Amendment) that said,

No amendment shall be made to the Constitution, which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish, or interfere within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State.

In other words, the amendment would have forever guaranteed the right of people to own slaves.

Lincoln violated every constitutional restraint on the office of the President possible. He used the Union army to invade independent sovereign states, and he invaded the State legislature in Maryland, kidnapping and incarcerating the legislators to prevent them from voting on secession. He used force to bully and intimidate other State legislatures in the North to keep them from supporting southern independence. He authorized Union forces to hunt down and kill or imprison “Copperheads” (individuals who supported southern independence in the North.)

While Lincoln forced black men from the North to serve in the Union army in segregated units, southern blacks were fighting voluntarily side-by-side with the white men—in the same units as the white men. And what most history books fail to mention is that there were reportedly over 300,000 slave owners fighting in Lincoln’s Union army during the Civil War. (Source: History of the United States, by John Ford Rhodes, Volume 4, page 344)

Lincoln’s so-called Emancipation Proclamation was an attempt to give the North moral justification for continuing his unconstitutional and immoral war of aggression against the South by issuing an edict to a nation that had already seceded (the Confederacy) and in which he had no authority, while leaving the institution of slavery completely intact among the states in which he did have authority (the Union). Lincoln was also hoping that his proclamation would incite southern blacks to insurrect against the southern states. However, this goal was never remotely accomplished.

England’s William Wilberforce had already shown how slavery could be peacefully ended. The institution of slavery was already dying in the United States. There was absolutely no reason why over 600,000 Americans had to die in Lincoln’s War of Aggression. Abraham Lincoln cared nothing about freeing slaves; what he cared about was enslaving free and independent states to an all-powerful, dictatorial federal government.

There really wasn’t a “bad” president before Lincoln. But with Lincoln as a model, and with the constitutional restraints against an imperial presidency left torn in shreds, we haven’t had very many “good” presidents since him. In fact, without Abraham Lincoln, the nine “worst” presidents below would probably have never become President.

I highly encourage readers to read the excellent book, The Real Lincoln by Thomas DiLorenzo.

2. Woodrow Wilson (Democrat)

Woodrow Wilson took Lincoln’s vision of subjugated states to a global level. In one year, Wilson did more to destroy whatever vestiges of a free republic that were left after Lincoln’s administration than any President since. That year was 1913. It was a year that should live in infamy. Woodrow Wilson saddled the American people with the following:

February 3, 1913

This is the date when the 16th Amendment was ratified, and the direct income tax and IRS were instituted. This was a flagrant repudiation of freedom principles. What began as a temporary measure to support the War of Northern Aggression became a permanent income revenue stream for an unconstitutional—and ever-growing—central government.

April 8, 1913

This is the date when the 17th Amendment was ratified. This amendment overturned the power of the State legislatures to elect their own senators and replaced it with a direct, popular vote. This was another serious blow against State sovereignty. The framers of the Constitution desired that the influence and power in Washington, D.C., be kept as close to the people and states as possible.

For example, the number of representatives in the House of Representatives was to be decided by a limited number of voters. In the original Constitution, the ratio of “People of the several States” deciding their House member could not exceed “one for every thirty Thousand.” (Article. I. Section. 2. Paragraph. 3.) And when it came to the U.S. Senate, the framers also recognized the authority of each State legislature to select its own senators, thereby keeping power and influence from aggregating in Washington, D.C.

The 17th Amendment seriously damaged the influence and power of the states by forcing them to elect their US senators by popular vote. The bigger the State, the less influence the State legislature has in determining its U.S. senator. Senators who answered to State legislators, each answering to a limited number of voters, were much more accountable to the “Citizens of the several States” than those who were elected by a large number (many times numbering into the millions) of people. For all intents and purposes (at least in the larger states), U.S. senators are more like “mini-Presidents” than representatives of sovereign states.

December 23, 1913

This is the date when the Federal Reserve Act was passed. This Act placed oversight of America’s financial matters into the hands of a cabal of private international bankers, who have completely destroyed the constitutional principles of sound money and (for the most part) free enterprise. No longer would the marketplace (private consumption, thrift, growth, etc.) be the determinant of the U.S. economy (which is what freedom is all about), but now a private, unaccountable international banking cartel would have total power and authority to micromanage (for their own private, parochial purposes) America’s financial sector. Virtually every recession, depression and downturn has been the direct result of the Fed’s manipulation of the markets.

1913 was not a good year for the United States. And Woodrow Wilson was our second worst President.

3. Franklin Delano Roosevelt (Democrat)

F.D.R. was America’s first socialist President. His “New Deal” was actually a “Raw Deal.” He was the President that did the yeoman’s share of work in preparing the United States to reject American independence and embrace socialism—complete with the gargantuan list of federal alphabet agencies designed to promote and enforce the socialist agenda. What Woodrow Wilson had failed to accomplish with the attempted League of Nations, Roosevelt accomplished by laying the framework for the United Nations, which came into fruition under his successor Harry Truman.

Roosevelt was also the man responsible for aiding and abetting communism in Eastern Europe and elsewhere. I think it is also accurate to say that F.D.R. purposely goaded Japan into war. I further believe he made sure that the defenses that should have seen the Japanese attack coming were not operational. Not to mention his unconscionable internment of Japanese Americans during the war.

Abraham Lincoln gave America an imperial presidency. Woodrow Wilson gave America globalism. F.D.R. gave America socialism.

4. Lyndon Baines Johnson (Democrat)

L.B.J. was F.D.R. on steroids. He took American socialism to heights Roosevelt could have only dreamed of. Johnson’s “Great Society” permanently ensconced a welfare/entitlement society into the fabric of America, which has resulted in the destruction of both our economic system and the family unit.

And without a doubt, L.B.J. is an international criminal and traitor to America. Along with his Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, Johnson conspired with the Israeli government to sink the U.S.S. Liberty. And when Johnson realized that the Israelis were unable to sink our ship (due to a divine miracle of God) and Americans would be alive to tell the truth about what happened, he led a conspiracy of silence within both the government and media to cover up his murderous treason—a conspiracy of silence that exists to this very day.

If you have not already read the true story of the U.S.S. Liberty (co-written by the ship’s survivors), I urge you to get the book Remember The LIBERTY!

Lyndon Johnson is also responsible for the Gun Control Act of 1968, which is the grandfather of ALL of our modern gun control laws. As a U.S. Senator from Texas, Johnson is also the man that successfully gagged and muzzled America’s pastors and churches with the passage of his amendment to the 501c3 section of the Internal Revenue Code. Of course, Johnson also took America into the unconstitutional war in Vietnam. And I personally believe that L.B.J. was a conspirator to John F. Kennedy’s assassination. Lyndon Johnson was a terrible President and an awful human being.

5. George W. Bush (Republican)

Lincoln gave us the imperial presidency; Wilson gave us globalism; F.D.R. gave us socialism; L.B.J. gave us welfarism, gun control and cowardly churches; and G.W. Bush gave us a burgeoning Police State, a total surveillance society, perpetual war and Neocons.

What Bill Clinton and Al Gore could not do, G.W. Bush did with ease: shackle the United States with the hugely misnamed and tyrannical USA Patriot Act. He also gave us the Department of Homeland Security, the Military Commissions Act and the indefinite detention sections of the NDAA. Bush also expunged Posse Comitatus in America. He illegally invaded two sovereign nations, Iraq and Afghanistan. He created the “preemptive war” doctrine that still guides America’s foreign policy today. His policies and actions directly contributed to the rise of Islamic terror groups such as ISIS and the invasion of illegal immigrants in Europe and the United States. The phony “war on terror” is G.W. Bush’s war.

G.W. Bush and his presidential successors have killed more people in their various and sundry wars of aggression than Abraham Lincoln. Plus, G.W. Bush’s failure on 9/11 is of seismic proportions. Either his administration was totally inept in preventing and/or responding to 9/11 (especially Saudi Arabia’s and Israel’s potential involvement) or, if one accepts the conspiracy theories, elements within his administration actually conspired to facilitate the attacks on 9/11. Either way, Bush’s performance on 9/11 was dismal at best or traitorous at worst.

Virtually every unconstitutional tool that Barack Obama used in his disastrous presidency was handed to him on a silver platter by G.W. Bush.

6. Barack Obama (Democrat)

Barack Obama is America’s first Muslim President and the first to not be born of an American citizen or in the United States as required by the U.S. Constitution. Anyone who believes Obama was born in Hawaii is intellectually challenged.

Obama’s single greatest administrative disaster is his socialized healthcare plan, known as Obamacare. Without a doubt, this system is a death sentence to America’s future healthcare. Generations of Americans yet to come will curse the day Barack Obama and the members of Congress that assisted him were allowed to create this medical monstrosity.

Obama was also the laziest President in history. He took more vacations, played more rounds of golf and spent more taxpayers’ dollars on vacation trips than any President before him. But, to me, it’s a good thing he was so lazy. Think of the damage he could have done if he wasn’t.

7. William Jefferson Blythe Clinton (Democrat)

Until Donald Trump came along, Bill Clinton was the only President to be impeached besides Andrew Johnson. Perjury is a serious crime, and if the Republicans in the Senate had had any man-stuff, they would have removed him from office. But perjury was not all Clinton was guilty of.

Clinton’s cozy deals with the Communist Chinese and the bribes paid to him by foreign governments are well documented. Bill Clinton was probably the most corrupt President since U.S. Grant.

Another major stain on the Clinton record is the way his government murdered over one hundred innocent men (most of them elderly), women and children outside Waco, Texas. Then again, the Clinton body count is probably much higher than that. The people who ran afoul of Clinton’s good graces and ended up mysteriously dead number in the scores.

8. George Herbert Walker Bush (Republican)

G.H.W. Bush is the granddaddy of the modern Neocons. He is the first U.S. President to publicly call for a global “New World Order.”

In reality, the administrations of Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and Obama were nothing more than one, long, continuous administration. There really was not any policy change of substance in the White House during those administrations—party affiliation notwithstanding.

Bush I is also responsible for the government murders of Vicki and Sammy Weaver near Ruby Ridge, Idaho. Along with the Clinton administration’s murder of the Branch Davidians near Waco, Texas, the Bush-sponsored murders of the Weavers have done more to make Americans distrust and despise their central government than anything since the Boston Massacre in 1770.

9. Harry Truman (Democrat)

Truman was America’s first Zionist president. The ethnic cleansing, slaughter and genocide of millions of Palestinian people by the Israeli army can be laid directly on the doorstep of Harry Truman.

I strongly urge folks to read Ilan Pappe’s blockbuster book The Ethnic Cleansing Of Palestine.

And never forget that Truman is the only national leader in world history to use atomic (nuclear) weapons—and he chose to use them against civilian populations.

10. (Tie) Richard Nixon (Republican) and Joe Biden (Democrat)

Watergate was the tip of the iceberg for Nixon. He would have been impeached had he not resigned, for sure. Nixon makes my list because of his coziness with Communist China’s Butcher of Beijing (Mao Tse-tung) and for forever taking America off of the gold standard. Nixon could probably be identified as a Neocon, if we had known what they were back then. For example, Nixon gave us the likes of Henry Kissinger.

It’s really hard to articulate the imbecilic presidency of Joe Biden. By every discernable measurement, Biden’s rating is 0, as in ZERO. Biden’s usage of the Covid scam in an attempt to eviscerate American Liberty, shutter businesses and put the lives of millions in jeopardy is unconscionable and should be regarded as an act of war against humanity. And his proxy war against Russia in Ukraine qualifies Joe Biden as one of the most evil warmongers in U.S. history, right up there with, well, Abraham Lincoln.

There you have it: my list of America’s top ten worst presidents.

© Chuck Baldwin

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 2:54 am
by Niemand
Where to start with this? Other than Lincoln, he completely ignores the 19th century. People tend to forget many of the 19th century presidents who were often not just obscure, but awful.

It is also inaccurate to say "The ethnic cleansing, slaughter and genocide of millions of Palestinian people by the Israeli army can be laid directly on the doorstep of Harry Truman." This is an entirely US-centric view, which forgets that Israel is largely a British creation. It was under the British Mandate that Jews came flooding into Palestine, mainly after the Balfour Declaration. The leaders of the British military in Palestine itself tended to be more pro-Arab, but there were some such as Orde Wingate who were thoroughly Zionist. The Israeli military received much of its training via the British as well, since many of its leaders had served in British forces during WW2.

The origins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be found in the classic divide and conquer techniques of British imperialism. These also led to the partition of India and Ireland on partly religious grounds, the division of Cyprus, various African messes and so on. The British even tried to stir up the Roman Catholics of Maryland against their Protestant Yankee "oppressors" in the newly independent USA. Maryland could have ended up as the American Ulster...

It is also worth mentioning that the USSR was one of the major voices who came out initially in favour of Israeli independence too. This was a strange decision on the part of the Soviet Union as they would tend to back Arab Nationalism in the region in the decades afterwards.

America's role in supporting Zionism really came to the fore in the sixties and seventies. I'm not convinced that the US was so supportive in the forties and fifties. The US notably stayed out the Suez Conflict in 1956, when it could have backed Israel, probably partly because of the leading role played by the British and French. The Soviet support of Arabs was probably a factor in garnering more US support for Israel, and is rarely mentioned, but even that had to be balanced against the USA's interest in the Arabs' oil.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 7:35 am
by Robin Hood
Niemand wrote: March 19th, 2023, 2:54 am Where to start with this? Other than Lincoln, he completely ignores the 19th century. People tend to forget many of the 19th century presidents who were often not just obscure, but awful.

It is also inaccurate to say "The ethnic cleansing, slaughter and genocide of millions of Palestinian people by the Israeli army can be laid directly on the doorstep of Harry Truman." This is an entirely US-centric view, which forgets that Israel is largely a British creation. It was under the British Mandate that Jews came flooding into Palestine, mainly after the Balfour Declaration. The leaders of the British military in Palestine itself tended to be more pro-Arab, but there were some such as Orde Wingate who were thoroughly Zionist. The Israeli military received much of its training via the British as well, since many of its leaders had served in British forces during WW2.

The origins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be found in the classic divide and conquer techniques of British imperialism. These also led to the partition of India and Ireland on partly religious grounds, the division of Cyprus, various African messes and so on. The British even tried to stir up the Roman Catholics of Maryland against their Protestant Yankee "oppressors" in the newly independent USA. Maryland could have ended up as the American Ulster...

It is also worth mentioning that the USSR was one of the major voices who came out initially in favour of Israeli independence too. This was a strange decision on the part of the Soviet Union as they would tend to back Arab Nationalism in the region in the decades afterwards.

America's role in supporting Zionism really came to the fore in the sixties and seventies. I'm not convinced that the US was so supportive in the forties and fifties. The US notably stayed out the Suez Conflict in 1956, when it could have backed Israel, probably partly because of the leading role played by the British and French. The Soviet support of Arabs was probably a factor in garnering more US support for Israel, and is rarely mentioned, but even that had to be balanced against the USA's interest in the Arabs' oil.
I'm actually quite proud of the role my country played as nursing kings and queens in establishing Israel as a homeland for the Jews.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 7:39 am
by Robin Hood
I didn't know all that about Lincoln.
Chuck Baldwin's right, William Wilberforce demonstrated that slavery could be brought to an end without bloodshed or revolution.
I recently read that the cost to the British treasury of ending slavery was so great that we only finished paying for it in 2015.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 10:49 am
by Niemand
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 7:35 am I'm actually quite proud of the role my country played as nursing kings and queens in establishing Israel as a homeland for the Jews.
I've mixed feelings to say the least. I think Israel is a fulfilment of prophecy, but as a friend of mine at another church once said to me, they've bred resentment against themselves as a state since 1948 which is also a fulfilment of prophecy which is why they will be attacked in the End Times. (Another person pointed out how Israel gone from goodies to baddies in public perception here since the 1960s, and from underdogs to overlords)

I think it is clear a lot of modern anti-Jewish feeling in the west is because of Israel's actions not in spite of them. I don't think it all comes from there but a significant amount does.

As a state Israel is essentially godless and promotes transgenderism (remember Dana International winning Eurovision back in the nineties?) and so on. Israelis have clearly grabbed a lot of land and kicked out the long established natives (Christians and all). And as a result they have a permanent siege situation going on.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 10:52 am
by Niemand
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 7:39 am I didn't know all that about Lincoln.
Chuck Baldwin's right, William Wilberforce demonstrated that slavery could be brought to an end without bloodshed or revolution.
I recently read that the cost to the British treasury of ending slavery was so great that we only finished paying for it in 2015.
From an LDS POV, many of the US presidents around the time of Lincoln were bad news. We could come up with an entirely different list based on the treatment of the church under different POTUS.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 1:35 pm
by Robin Hood
Niemand wrote: March 19th, 2023, 10:49 am
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 7:35 am I'm actually quite proud of the role my country played as nursing kings and queens in establishing Israel as a homeland for the Jews.
I've mixed feelings to say the least. I think Israel is a fulfilment of prophecy, but as a friend of mine at another church once said to me, they've bred resentment against themselves as a state since 1948 which is also a fulfilment of prophecy which is why they will be attacked in the End Times. (Another person pointed out how Israel gone from goodies to baddies in public perception here since the 1960s, and from underdogs to overlords)

I think it is clear a lot of modern anti-Jewish feeling in the west is because of Israel's actions not in spite of them. I don't think it all comes from there but a significant amount does.

As a state Israel is essentially godless and promotes transgenderism (remember Dana International winning Eurovision back in the nineties?) and so on. Israelis have clearly grabbed a lot of land and kicked out the long established natives (Christians and all). And as a result they have a permanent siege situation going on.
I'm unequivocally pro-Israel.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 1:48 pm
by Original_Intent
I think he nailed it on the top 4. The water gets a little muddy after that.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 2:27 pm
by Niemand
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 1:35 pm I'm unequivocally pro-Israel.
Israel has driven a lot of the indigenous Christians out of the region and doesn't allow missionaries. I can't condone a lot of what it does.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 3:14 pm
by Robin Hood
Niemand wrote: March 19th, 2023, 2:27 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 1:35 pm I'm unequivocally pro-Israel.
Israel has driven a lot of the indigenous Christians out of the region and doesn't allow missionaries. I can't condone a lot of what it does.
I don't think that is true. Israel has driven no one out.
You're right about missionaries.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 3:23 pm
by Niemand
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 3:14 pm
Niemand wrote: March 19th, 2023, 2:27 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 1:35 pm I'm unequivocally pro-Israel.
Israel has driven a lot of the indigenous Christians out of the region and doesn't allow missionaries. I can't condone a lot of what it does.
I don't think that is true. Israel has driven no one out.
You're right about missionaries.
The Nakba... massive flight of Palestinians (including Christians) in '48. Another large exodus after the annexation of the West Bank. Christian Palestinians & Israeli Arab Christians have also emigrated at a higher rate outside these two big events.

Israel has an uneasy relationship with Christians. I would say it is largely an anti-Christian state, but there is a substantial Christian minority and foreign Christians also bring in a lot of tourist revenue, plus some support Zionism, so it cannot be too anti-Christian. Teddy Kollek compared Jews converting to Christianity to the Holocaust.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 3:38 pm
by Robin Hood
Niemand wrote: March 19th, 2023, 3:23 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 3:14 pm
Niemand wrote: March 19th, 2023, 2:27 pm

Israel has driven a lot of the indigenous Christians out of the region and doesn't allow missionaries. I can't condone a lot of what it does.
I don't think that is true. Israel has driven no one out.
You're right about missionaries.
The Nakba... massive flight of Palestinians (including Christians) in '48. Another large exodus after the annexation of the West Bank. Christian Palestinians & Israeli Arab Christians have also emigrated at a higher rate outside these two big events.

Israel has an uneasy relationship with Christians. I would say it is largely an anti-Christian state, but there is a substantial Christian minority and foreign Christians also bring in a lot of tourist revenue, plus some support Zionism, so it cannot be too anti-Christian. Teddy Kollek compared Jews converting to Christianity to the Holocaust.
Israel didn't drive them out. They left under instruction from the Arabs states who went to war with Israel in an attempt to drive the Jews into the sea. The Arabs told all non-Jews to leave so they wouldn't get caught up in the annihilation.
It didn't work out that way, and the Palestinians became refugees because the Israelis, understandably, wouldn't let them back, and the Arabs wouldn't assimilate them.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 3:50 pm
by Niemand
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 3:38 pm Israel didn't drive them out. They left under instruction from the Arabs states who went to war with Israel in an attempt to drive the Jews into the sea. The Arabs told all non-Jews to leave so they wouldn't get caught up in the annihilation.
It didn't work out that way, and the Palestinians became refugees because the Israelis, understandably, wouldn't let them back, and the Arabs wouldn't assimilate them.
That's the standard Zionist line. The reality is that the Haganah and Stern Gang etc had been attacking Arab settlements for years before 1948. I've even read literature and memoirs by Zionists from the pre-1948 period where this was mentioned (not always approvingly).

The other Zionist lines include:
* A land without a people for a people without a land. Reality: hundreds of thousands of people were already living there.
* The Palestinians neglected the land. Reality: if they improved the land, the Ottoman landlords would have upped their rent.
* Neighbouring Arab nations have kept the Palestinians as refugees. Reality - what those countries have or haven't done, still doesn't justify the original landgrabs.
* It is ancestral territory. Reality - if we all could claim the places our ancestors were two thousand years ago, I think we'd have some surprises. Both of us would be able to grab chunks of Scandinavia and continental Europe..

I do see the State of Israel as a gathering for Judah, but I also DON'T see it:
* solving the Jewish Question (which still persists, alongside a new Palestinian Question)
* reducing anti-Jewishness (which it has increased in some quarters due to the actions of the IDF etc), especially in Arab nations
* maintaining Jewish culture as well it claims (many young Israelis are not very culturally Jewish, it has also helped displace Yiddish culture and language)
* discouraging genocide (we see genocide continuing in various parts of the world)

The best thing to come out of Israel I think is the Hebrew language revival which has been an inspiration to minority languages elsewhere including Cornish.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 3:59 pm
by Robin Hood
Niemand wrote: March 19th, 2023, 3:50 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 3:38 pm Israel didn't drive them out. They left under instruction from the Arabs states who went to war with Israel in an attempt to drive the Jews into the sea. The Arabs told all non-Jews to leave so they wouldn't get caught up in the annihilation.
It didn't work out that way, and the Palestinians became refugees because the Israelis, understandably, wouldn't let them back, and the Arabs wouldn't assimilate them.
That's the standard Zionist line. The reality is that the Haganah and Stern Gang etc had been attacking Arab settlements for years before 1948. I've even read literature and memoirs by Zionists from the pre-1948 period where this was discussed (not always approvingly).

The other Zionist lines include:
* A land without a people for a people without a land. Reality: hundreds of thousands of people were already living there.
* The Palestinians neglected the land. Reality: if they improved the land, the Ottoman landlords would have upped their rent.
* Neighbouring Arab nations have kept the Palestinians as refugees. Reality - what those countries have or haven't done, still doesn't justify the original landgrabs.

I do see the State of Israel as a gathering for Judah, but I also DON'T see it:
* solving the Jewish Question (which still persists, alongside a new Palestinian Question)
* reducing anti-Jewishness (which it has increased in some quarters due to the actions of the IDF etc), especially in Arab nations
* maintaining Jewish culture as well it claims (many young Israelis are not very culturally Jewish, it has also helped displace Yiddish culture and language)
* discouraging genocide (we see genocide continuing in various parts of the world)

The best thing to come out of Israel I think is the Hebrew language revival which has been an inspiration to minority languages elsewhere including Cornish.
There was never a Palestinian state or government. Jews have lived continuously in the land since the Roman expulsion.
Clearly there were tensions before 1948, that's one reason why the British Mandate was established by the League of Nations.
My own Grandfather served in the British army in Palestine, trying to keep the two sides apart. The Palestinians and Jews were at each others throats and both resented the presence of the British.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 4:05 pm
by David13
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 7:35 am
Niemand wrote: March 19th, 2023, 2:54 am Where to start with this? Other than Lincoln, he completely ignores the 19th century. People tend to forget many of the 19th century presidents who were often not just obscure, but awful.

It is also inaccurate to say "The ethnic cleansing, slaughter and genocide of millions of Palestinian people by the Israeli army can be laid directly on the doorstep of Harry Truman." This is an entirely US-centric view, which forgets that Israel is largely a British creation. It was under the British Mandate that Jews came flooding into Palestine, mainly after the Balfour Declaration. The leaders of the British military in Palestine itself tended to be more pro-Arab, but there were some such as Orde Wingate who were thoroughly Zionist. The Israeli military received much of its training via the British as well, since many of its leaders had served in British forces during WW2.

The origins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be found in the classic divide and conquer techniques of British imperialism. These also led to the partition of India and Ireland on partly religious grounds, the division of Cyprus, various African messes and so on. The British even tried to stir up the Roman Catholics of Maryland against their Protestant Yankee "oppressors" in the newly independent USA. Maryland could have ended up as the American Ulster...

It is also worth mentioning that the USSR was one of the major voices who came out initially in favour of Israeli independence too. This was a strange decision on the part of the Soviet Union as they would tend to back Arab Nationalism in the region in the decades afterwards.

America's role in supporting Zionism really came to the fore in the sixties and seventies. I'm not convinced that the US was so supportive in the forties and fifties. The US notably stayed out the Suez Conflict in 1956, when it could have backed Israel, probably partly because of the leading role played by the British and French. The Soviet support of Arabs was probably a factor in garnering more US support for Israel, and is rarely mentioned, but even that had to be balanced against the USA's interest in the Arabs' oil.
I'm actually quite proud of the role my country played as nursing kings and queens in establishing Israel as a homeland for the Jews.

Yes, but wasn't it all against all of Britain, and nothing more than some large scale finagalings of Benjamin Disraeli? I think without him it never would have happened.
dc

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 4:08 pm
by David13
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 3:59 pm
Niemand wrote: March 19th, 2023, 3:50 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 3:38 pm Israel didn't drive them out. They left under instruction from the Arabs states who went to war with Israel in an attempt to drive the Jews into the sea. The Arabs told all non-Jews to leave so they wouldn't get caught up in the annihilation.
It didn't work out that way, and the Palestinians became refugees because the Israelis, understandably, wouldn't let them back, and the Arabs wouldn't assimilate them.
That's the standard Zionist line. The reality is that the Haganah and Stern Gang etc had been attacking Arab settlements for years before 1948. I've even read literature and memoirs by Zionists from the pre-1948 period where this was discussed (not always approvingly).

The other Zionist lines include:
* A land without a people for a people without a land. Reality: hundreds of thousands of people were already living there.
* The Palestinians neglected the land. Reality: if they improved the land, the Ottoman landlords would have upped their rent.
* Neighbouring Arab nations have kept the Palestinians as refugees. Reality - what those countries have or haven't done, still doesn't justify the original landgrabs.

I do see the State of Israel as a gathering for Judah, but I also DON'T see it:
* solving the Jewish Question (which still persists, alongside a new Palestinian Question)
* reducing anti-Jewishness (which it has increased in some quarters due to the actions of the IDF etc), especially in Arab nations
* maintaining Jewish culture as well it claims (many young Israelis are not very culturally Jewish, it has also helped displace Yiddish culture and language)
* discouraging genocide (we see genocide continuing in various parts of the world)

The best thing to come out of Israel I think is the Hebrew language revival which has been an inspiration to minority languages elsewhere including Cornish.
There was never a Palestinian state or government. Jews have lived continuously in the land since the Roman expulsion.
Clearly there were tensions before 1948, that's one reason why the British Mandate was established by the League of Nations.
My own Grandfather served in the British army in Palestine, trying to keep the two sides apart. The Palestinians and Jews were at each others throats and both resented the presence of the British.

Yes, but wasn't that the beauty of the British withdrawal? It gave the two sides the opportunity to direct their hostilities towards each other, rather than the British.
dc

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 4:15 pm
by Niemand
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 3:59 pm There was never a Palestinian state or government.
That's another common line, but irrelevant. Self-determination is largely based around how people identify as a particular time. There may be historic precedents but there needn't be. There was an American identity by the time Washington came around but the 13 Colonies had no precedent as an independent state (by whites anyway).
Jews have lived continuously in the land since the Roman expulsion.
Jews have lived in what are now France, Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, Turkey, Italy, Greece and a number of other places since the time of Jesus and centuries before.

The native Jews were not very Zionist at all, in fact European Zionists coming in destroyed their relationships with the several other religious communities there. In fact it's safe to say most Jews worldwide weren't particularly Zionist until the mid-twentieth century. More emigrants went to the US and elsewhere.
My own Grandfather served in the British army in Palestine, trying to keep the two sides apart. The Palestinians and Jews were at each others throats and both resented the presence of the British.
A friend of mine – now dead I suspect – was on an RN vessel which was supposed to try and keep the ships from coming in. These blockades largely failed.

But as always the British empire sent mixed messages, and also set groups against each other. If there's one very bad legacy of British imperialism it's the ethnic/religious divisions in many former colonies (and continuing in Northern Ireland)

I do think the UK played a far bigger part in Zionism than the USA did initially. However, the USA clearly keeps the place going these days. Israel gets a huge stipend off the USA each year which keeps the place going and funds their massive military expenditure (which includes nuclear weapons and spy satellites).
David13 wrote: March 19th, 2023, 4:05 pm Yes, but wasn't it all against all of Britain, and nothing more than some large scale finagalings of Benjamin Disraeli? I think without him it never would have happened.
Disraeli has remarkably little to do with the whole enterprise given his background. In the 19th century, most British Jews weren't into the idea, and a number of rabbis even condemned the idea of a Jewish state. Only late did anti-Zionism become a minority view among Jews.

If you dig back into the history it was often Protestant Christians who were major promoters of the view. Orde Wingate is one of the more prominent ones. If you want to go way back, Oliver Cromwell suggested the idea back at a time when practically no Jews would countenance it.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 7:07 pm
by David13
Niemand wrote: March 19th, 2023, 4:15 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 3:59 pm There was never a Palestinian state or government.
That's another common line, but irrelevant. Self-determination is largely based around how people identify as a particular time. There may be historic precedents but there needn't be. There was an American identity by the time Washington came around but the 13 Colonies had no precedent as an independent state (by whites anyway).
Jews have lived continuously in the land since the Roman expulsion.
Jews have lived in what are now France, Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, Turkey, Italy, Greece and a number of other places since the time of Jesus and centuries before.

The native Jews were not very Zionist at all, in fact European Zionists coming in destroyed their relationships with the several other religious communities there. In fact it's safe to say most Jews worldwide weren't particularly Zionist until the mid-twentieth century. More emigrants went to the US and elsewhere.
My own Grandfather served in the British army in Palestine, trying to keep the two sides apart. The Palestinians and Jews were at each others throats and both resented the presence of the British.
A friend of mine – now dead I suspect – was on an RN vessel which was supposed to try and keep the ships from coming in. These blockades largely failed.

But as always the British empire sent mixed messages, and also set groups against each other. If there's one very bad legacy of British imperialism it's the ethnic/religious divisions in many former colonies (and continuing in Northern Ireland)

I do think the UK played a far bigger part in Zionism than the USA did initially. However, the USA clearly keeps the place going these days. Israel gets a huge stipend off the USA each year which keeps the place going and funds their massive military expenditure (which includes nuclear weapons and spy satellites).
David13 wrote: March 19th, 2023, 4:05 pm Yes, but wasn't it all against all of Britain, and nothing more than some large scale finagalings of Benjamin Disraeli? I think without him it never would have happened.
Disraeli has remarkably little to do with the whole enterprise given his background. In the 19th century, most British Jews weren't into the idea, and a number of rabbis even condemned the idea of a Jewish state. Only late did anti-Zionism become a minority view among Jews.

If you dig back into the history it was often Protestant Christians who were major promoters of the view. Orde Wingate is one of the more prominent ones. If you want to go way back, Oliver Cromwell suggested the idea back at a time when practically no Jews would countenance it.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion.
dc

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 19th, 2023, 8:43 pm
by madvin
GeeR wrote: March 19th, 2023, 1:10 am My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents
By Chuck Baldwin
March 16, 2023



To be sure, it’s quite a challenge to try and pick America’s top ten worst presidents when so many qualify for the distinction. But then again, I am personally quite convinced that the ones who made my list truly deserve their ignoble entry.

So here goes: America’s top ten worst presidents.

1. Abraham Lincoln (Republican)

Without an ounce of doubt in my mind, Abraham Lincoln is America’s absolute worst president. He did not free a single slave; but what he did do was begin the process of enslaving free men. It is no hyperbole to say that Lincoln truly governed as a dictator, not as a President.

Virtually every single problem we are having today (and have had ever since Lincoln’s presidency) with an overbearing, encroaching, authoritarian federal government in Washington, D.C., came as a result of Abraham Lincoln’s presidency. EVERY SINGLE ONE!

Abraham Lincoln destroyed the Washington/Jeffersonian model of American government and replaced it with an imperial White House. His own statements prove that he cared absolutely nothing for the black race and was indeed himself a racist—unlike many leaders of the Confederacy, such as Robert E. Lee, Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson, etc., who publicly and adamantly spoke in support of the end of slavery and never said anything remotely derogatory or racist against the black people.

Beyond that, in his first inaugural address, Lincoln actually supported an amendment to the U.S. Constitution proposed by Ohio Congressman Thomas Corwin (which would have been the 13th Amendment) that said,

No amendment shall be made to the Constitution, which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish, or interfere within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State.

In other words, the amendment would have forever guaranteed the right of people to own slaves.

Lincoln violated every constitutional restraint on the office of the President possible. He used the Union army to invade independent sovereign states, and he invaded the State legislature in Maryland, kidnapping and incarcerating the legislators to prevent them from voting on secession. He used force to bully and intimidate other State legislatures in the North to keep them from supporting southern independence. He authorized Union forces to hunt down and kill or imprison “Copperheads” (individuals who supported southern independence in the North.)

While Lincoln forced black men from the North to serve in the Union army in segregated units, southern blacks were fighting voluntarily side-by-side with the white men—in the same units as the white men. And what most history books fail to mention is that there were reportedly over 300,000 slave owners fighting in Lincoln’s Union army during the Civil War. (Source: History of the United States, by John Ford Rhodes, Volume 4, page 344)

Lincoln’s so-called Emancipation Proclamation was an attempt to give the North moral justification for continuing his unconstitutional and immoral war of aggression against the South by issuing an edict to a nation that had already seceded (the Confederacy) and in which he had no authority, while leaving the institution of slavery completely intact among the states in which he did have authority (the Union). Lincoln was also hoping that his proclamation would incite southern blacks to insurrect against the southern states. However, this goal was never remotely accomplished.

England’s William Wilberforce had already shown how slavery could be peacefully ended. The institution of slavery was already dying in the United States. There was absolutely no reason why over 600,000 Americans had to die in Lincoln’s War of Aggression. Abraham Lincoln cared nothing about freeing slaves; what he cared about was enslaving free and independent states to an all-powerful, dictatorial federal government.

There really wasn’t a “bad” president before Lincoln. But with Lincoln as a model, and with the constitutional restraints against an imperial presidency left torn in shreds, we haven’t had very many “good” presidents since him. In fact, without Abraham Lincoln, the nine “worst” presidents below would probably have never become President.

I highly encourage readers to read the excellent book, The Real Lincoln by Thomas DiLorenzo.

2. Woodrow Wilson (Democrat)

Woodrow Wilson took Lincoln’s vision of subjugated states to a global level. In one year, Wilson did more to destroy whatever vestiges of a free republic that were left after Lincoln’s administration than any President since. That year was 1913. It was a year that should live in infamy. Woodrow Wilson saddled the American people with the following:

February 3, 1913

This is the date when the 16th Amendment was ratified, and the direct income tax and IRS were instituted. This was a flagrant repudiation of freedom principles. What began as a temporary measure to support the War of Northern Aggression became a permanent income revenue stream for an unconstitutional—and ever-growing—central government.

April 8, 1913

This is the date when the 17th Amendment was ratified. This amendment overturned the power of the State legislatures to elect their own senators and replaced it with a direct, popular vote. This was another serious blow against State sovereignty. The framers of the Constitution desired that the influence and power in Washington, D.C., be kept as close to the people and states as possible.

For example, the number of representatives in the House of Representatives was to be decided by a limited number of voters. In the original Constitution, the ratio of “People of the several States” deciding their House member could not exceed “one for every thirty Thousand.” (Article. I. Section. 2. Paragraph. 3.) And when it came to the U.S. Senate, the framers also recognized the authority of each State legislature to select its own senators, thereby keeping power and influence from aggregating in Washington, D.C.

The 17th Amendment seriously damaged the influence and power of the states by forcing them to elect their US senators by popular vote. The bigger the State, the less influence the State legislature has in determining its U.S. senator. Senators who answered to State legislators, each answering to a limited number of voters, were much more accountable to the “Citizens of the several States” than those who were elected by a large number (many times numbering into the millions) of people. For all intents and purposes (at least in the larger states), U.S. senators are more like “mini-Presidents” than representatives of sovereign states.

December 23, 1913

This is the date when the Federal Reserve Act was passed. This Act placed oversight of America’s financial matters into the hands of a cabal of private international bankers, who have completely destroyed the constitutional principles of sound money and (for the most part) free enterprise. No longer would the marketplace (private consumption, thrift, growth, etc.) be the determinant of the U.S. economy (which is what freedom is all about), but now a private, unaccountable international banking cartel would have total power and authority to micromanage (for their own private, parochial purposes) America’s financial sector. Virtually every recession, depression and downturn has been the direct result of the Fed’s manipulation of the markets.

1913 was not a good year for the United States. And Woodrow Wilson was our second worst President.

3. Franklin Delano Roosevelt (Democrat)

F.D.R. was America’s first socialist President. His “New Deal” was actually a “Raw Deal.” He was the President that did the yeoman’s share of work in preparing the United States to reject American independence and embrace socialism—complete with the gargantuan list of federal alphabet agencies designed to promote and enforce the socialist agenda. What Woodrow Wilson had failed to accomplish with the attempted League of Nations, Roosevelt accomplished by laying the framework for the United Nations, which came into fruition under his successor Harry Truman.

Roosevelt was also the man responsible for aiding and abetting communism in Eastern Europe and elsewhere. I think it is also accurate to say that F.D.R. purposely goaded Japan into war. I further believe he made sure that the defenses that should have seen the Japanese attack coming were not operational. Not to mention his unconscionable internment of Japanese Americans during the war.

Abraham Lincoln gave America an imperial presidency. Woodrow Wilson gave America globalism. F.D.R. gave America socialism.

4. Lyndon Baines Johnson (Democrat)

L.B.J. was F.D.R. on steroids. He took American socialism to heights Roosevelt could have only dreamed of. Johnson’s “Great Society” permanently ensconced a welfare/entitlement society into the fabric of America, which has resulted in the destruction of both our economic system and the family unit.

And without a doubt, L.B.J. is an international criminal and traitor to America. Along with his Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, Johnson conspired with the Israeli government to sink the U.S.S. Liberty. And when Johnson realized that the Israelis were unable to sink our ship (due to a divine miracle of God) and Americans would be alive to tell the truth about what happened, he led a conspiracy of silence within both the government and media to cover up his murderous treason—a conspiracy of silence that exists to this very day.

If you have not already read the true story of the U.S.S. Liberty (co-written by the ship’s survivors), I urge you to get the book Remember The LIBERTY!

Lyndon Johnson is also responsible for the Gun Control Act of 1968, which is the grandfather of ALL of our modern gun control laws. As a U.S. Senator from Texas, Johnson is also the man that successfully gagged and muzzled America’s pastors and churches with the passage of his amendment to the 501c3 section of the Internal Revenue Code. Of course, Johnson also took America into the unconstitutional war in Vietnam. And I personally believe that L.B.J. was a conspirator to John F. Kennedy’s assassination. Lyndon Johnson was a terrible President and an awful human being.

5. George W. Bush (Republican)

Lincoln gave us the imperial presidency; Wilson gave us globalism; F.D.R. gave us socialism; L.B.J. gave us welfarism, gun control and cowardly churches; and G.W. Bush gave us a burgeoning Police State, a total surveillance society, perpetual war and Neocons.

What Bill Clinton and Al Gore could not do, G.W. Bush did with ease: shackle the United States with the hugely misnamed and tyrannical USA Patriot Act. He also gave us the Department of Homeland Security, the Military Commissions Act and the indefinite detention sections of the NDAA. Bush also expunged Posse Comitatus in America. He illegally invaded two sovereign nations, Iraq and Afghanistan. He created the “preemptive war” doctrine that still guides America’s foreign policy today. His policies and actions directly contributed to the rise of Islamic terror groups such as ISIS and the invasion of illegal immigrants in Europe and the United States. The phony “war on terror” is G.W. Bush’s war.

G.W. Bush and his presidential successors have killed more people in their various and sundry wars of aggression than Abraham Lincoln. Plus, G.W. Bush’s failure on 9/11 is of seismic proportions. Either his administration was totally inept in preventing and/or responding to 9/11 (especially Saudi Arabia’s and Israel’s potential involvement) or, if one accepts the conspiracy theories, elements within his administration actually conspired to facilitate the attacks on 9/11. Either way, Bush’s performance on 9/11 was dismal at best or traitorous at worst.

Virtually every unconstitutional tool that Barack Obama used in his disastrous presidency was handed to him on a silver platter by G.W. Bush.

6. Barack Obama (Democrat)

Barack Obama is America’s first Muslim President and the first to not be born of an American citizen or in the United States as required by the U.S. Constitution. Anyone who believes Obama was born in Hawaii is intellectually challenged.

Obama’s single greatest administrative disaster is his socialized healthcare plan, known as Obamacare. Without a doubt, this system is a death sentence to America’s future healthcare. Generations of Americans yet to come will curse the day Barack Obama and the members of Congress that assisted him were allowed to create this medical monstrosity.

Obama was also the laziest President in history. He took more vacations, played more rounds of golf and spent more taxpayers’ dollars on vacation trips than any President before him. But, to me, it’s a good thing he was so lazy. Think of the damage he could have done if he wasn’t.

7. William Jefferson Blythe Clinton (Democrat)

Until Donald Trump came along, Bill Clinton was the only President to be impeached besides Andrew Johnson. Perjury is a serious crime, and if the Republicans in the Senate had had any man-stuff, they would have removed him from office. But perjury was not all Clinton was guilty of.

Clinton’s cozy deals with the Communist Chinese and the bribes paid to him by foreign governments are well documented. Bill Clinton was probably the most corrupt President since U.S. Grant.

Another major stain on the Clinton record is the way his government murdered over one hundred innocent men (most of them elderly), women and children outside Waco, Texas. Then again, the Clinton body count is probably much higher than that. The people who ran afoul of Clinton’s good graces and ended up mysteriously dead number in the scores.

8. George Herbert Walker Bush (Republican)

G.H.W. Bush is the granddaddy of the modern Neocons. He is the first U.S. President to publicly call for a global “New World Order.”

In reality, the administrations of Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and Obama were nothing more than one, long, continuous administration. There really was not any policy change of substance in the White House during those administrations—party affiliation notwithstanding.

Bush I is also responsible for the government murders of Vicki and Sammy Weaver near Ruby Ridge, Idaho. Along with the Clinton administration’s murder of the Branch Davidians near Waco, Texas, the Bush-sponsored murders of the Weavers have done more to make Americans distrust and despise their central government than anything since the Boston Massacre in 1770.

9. Harry Truman (Democrat)

Truman was America’s first Zionist president. The ethnic cleansing, slaughter and genocide of millions of Palestinian people by the Israeli army can be laid directly on the doorstep of Harry Truman.

I strongly urge folks to read Ilan Pappe’s blockbuster book The Ethnic Cleansing Of Palestine.

And never forget that Truman is the only national leader in world history to use atomic (nuclear) weapons—and he chose to use them against civilian populations.

10. (Tie) Richard Nixon (Republican) and Joe Biden (Democrat)

Watergate was the tip of the iceberg for Nixon. He would have been impeached had he not resigned, for sure. Nixon makes my list because of his coziness with Communist China’s Butcher of Beijing (Mao Tse-tung) and for forever taking America off of the gold standard. Nixon could probably be identified as a Neocon, if we had known what they were back then. For example, Nixon gave us the likes of Henry Kissinger.

It’s really hard to articulate the imbecilic presidency of Joe Biden. By every discernable measurement, Biden’s rating is 0, as in ZERO. Biden’s usage of the Covid scam in an attempt to eviscerate American Liberty, shutter businesses and put the lives of millions in jeopardy is unconscionable and should be regarded as an act of war against humanity. And his proxy war against Russia in Ukraine qualifies Joe Biden as one of the most evil warmongers in U.S. history, right up there with, well, Abraham Lincoln.

There you have it: my list of America’s top ten worst presidents.

© Chuck Baldwin
It's as good as any other list might be...I think the progression of worst to next worst (which builds upon the former "worst") each time as you go down the list one by one, makes some sense, when you look at the whole of it, systematically destroying freedom, the last seemingly relying on the former until we are where we're at now.

I do think we can add several more , say Carter, Taft, Eisenhower, Ford, oh well. It'd be easier to list the good ones; a very exclusive list.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 20th, 2023, 2:40 am
by Niemand
David13 wrote: March 19th, 2023, 7:07 pm Well, you are entitled to your opinion.
Nothing to do with being "entitled" to anything (whatever that's supposed to mean.)

The dates and facts are simple.

Disraeli died in 1880.

The First Aliyah was in the later 1880s and 1890s after Disraeli's lifetime. This had insufficient numbers to create a Zionist state, and had little to do with the British Empire. Britain did not control Palestine at this point and most of the migration was from the Russian Empire.

The Balfour Declaration was in 1917. ~47 years after Disraeli's death.

British Mandate Palestine started in 1918. ~48 years after Disraeli's death.

Israeli independence was in 1948. ~68 years after Disraeli's death.

None of this is "my opinion". It is provable fact.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 20th, 2023, 3:35 am
by Robin Hood
Niemand wrote: March 19th, 2023, 4:15 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 3:59 pm There was never a Palestinian state or government.
That's another common line, but irrelevant. Self-determination is largely based around how people identify as a particular time. There may be historic precedents but there needn't be. There was an American identity by the time Washington came around but the 13 Colonies had no precedent as an independent state (by whites anyway).
Jews have lived continuously in the land since the Roman expulsion.
Jews have lived in what are now France, Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, Turkey, Italy, Greece and a number of other places since the time of Jesus and centuries before.

The native Jews were not very Zionist at all, in fact European Zionists coming in destroyed their relationships with the several other religious communities there. In fact it's safe to say most Jews worldwide weren't particularly Zionist until the mid-twentieth century. More emigrants went to the US and elsewhere.
My own Grandfather served in the British army in Palestine, trying to keep the two sides apart. The Palestinians and Jews were at each others throats and both resented the presence of the British.
A friend of mine – now dead I suspect – was on an RN vessel which was supposed to try and keep the ships from coming in. These blockades largely failed.

But as always the British empire sent mixed messages, and also set groups against each other. If there's one very bad legacy of British imperialism it's the ethnic/religious divisions in many former colonies (and continuing in Northern Ireland)

I do think the UK played a far bigger part in Zionism than the USA did initially. However, the USA clearly keeps the place going these days. Israel gets a huge stipend off the USA each year which keeps the place going and funds their massive military expenditure (which includes nuclear weapons and spy satellites).
David13 wrote: March 19th, 2023, 4:05 pm Yes, but wasn't it all against all of Britain, and nothing more than some large scale finagalings of Benjamin Disraeli? I think without him it never would have happened.
Disraeli has remarkably little to do with the whole enterprise given his background. In the 19th century, most British Jews weren't into the idea, and a number of rabbis even condemned the idea of a Jewish state. Only late did anti-Zionism become a minority view among Jews.

If you dig back into the history it was often Protestant Christians who were major promoters of the view. Orde Wingate is one of the more prominent ones. If you want to go way back, Oliver Cromwell suggested the idea back at a time when practically no Jews would countenance it.
The Jews weren't given the land of France, Turkey, Italy, Greece ... etc by God. Neither do they have as long a history in those places as they do in Israel/Judah.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 20th, 2023, 3:49 am
by Niemand
Robin Hood wrote: March 20th, 2023, 3:35 am
Niemand wrote: March 19th, 2023, 4:15 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 19th, 2023, 3:59 pm There was never a Palestinian state or government.
That's another common line, but irrelevant. Self-determination is largely based around how people identify as a particular time. There may be historic precedents but there needn't be. There was an American identity by the time Washington came around but the 13 Colonies had no precedent as an independent state (by whites anyway).
Jews have lived continuously in the land since the Roman expulsion.
Jews have lived in what are now France, Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, Turkey, Italy, Greece and a number of other places since the time of Jesus and centuries before.

The native Jews were not very Zionist at all, in fact European Zionists coming in destroyed their relationships with the several other religious communities there. In fact it's safe to say most Jews worldwide weren't particularly Zionist until the mid-twentieth century. More emigrants went to the US and elsewhere.
My own Grandfather served in the British army in Palestine, trying to keep the two sides apart. The Palestinians and Jews were at each others throats and both resented the presence of the British.
A friend of mine – now dead I suspect – was on an RN vessel which was supposed to try and keep the ships from coming in. These blockades largely failed.

But as always the British empire sent mixed messages, and also set groups against each other. If there's one very bad legacy of British imperialism it's the ethnic/religious divisions in many former colonies (and continuing in Northern Ireland)

I do think the UK played a far bigger part in Zionism than the USA did initially. However, the USA clearly keeps the place going these days. Israel gets a huge stipend off the USA each year which keeps the place going and funds their massive military expenditure (which includes nuclear weapons and spy satellites).
David13 wrote: March 19th, 2023, 4:05 pm Yes, but wasn't it all against all of Britain, and nothing more than some large scale finagalings of Benjamin Disraeli? I think without him it never would have happened.
Disraeli has remarkably little to do with the whole enterprise given his background. In the 19th century, most British Jews weren't into the idea, and a number of rabbis even condemned the idea of a Jewish state. Only late did anti-Zionism become a minority view among Jews.

If you dig back into the history it was often Protestant Christians who were major promoters of the view. Orde Wingate is one of the more prominent ones. If you want to go way back, Oliver Cromwell suggested the idea back at a time when practically no Jews would countenance it.
The Jews weren't given the land of France, Turkey, Italy, Greece ... etc by God. Neither do they have as long a history in those places as they do in Israel/Judah.
The Jews were in these places before Jesus Christ was even born and the main Diaspora happened. The Jewish population of France and Italy may date back to the time of the Greek colonies in Marseilles and southern Italy. The populations in some parts of the Middle East are even older. The populations in Egypt and Iraq may have roots going back to the Babylonian Exile.

Paul was such a person, coming from modern day Turkey. Simon of Cyrene who carried the cross was likely a Jewish Libyan. Jesus himself spent time in the Egyptian Jewish population according to Matthew 2:13.

There were ancient populations in places like Syria and Lebanon that are now gone (completely?) thanks to the creation of the State of Israel. Some parts of these places may count as part of the Holy Land (Sinai in Egypt, arguably too.)

Ethiopian and Indian Jewish populations may date back at least two thousand years, before the time of Christ.

If the two of us were to go back two thousand years in our ancestry, we would find people living in France, the Low Countries, Germany, Denmark, Norway, probably even Spain and beyond. There are a lot of Scandinavian words used in the places we live in and some obvious cultural links.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 20th, 2023, 5:30 am
by Robin Hood
Niemand wrote: March 20th, 2023, 3:49 am
Robin Hood wrote: March 20th, 2023, 3:35 am
Niemand wrote: March 19th, 2023, 4:15 pm

That's another common line, but irrelevant. Self-determination is largely based around how people identify as a particular time. There may be historic precedents but there needn't be. There was an American identity by the time Washington came around but the 13 Colonies had no precedent as an independent state (by whites anyway).



Jews have lived in what are now France, Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, Turkey, Italy, Greece and a number of other places since the time of Jesus and centuries before.

The native Jews were not very Zionist at all, in fact European Zionists coming in destroyed their relationships with the several other religious communities there. In fact it's safe to say most Jews worldwide weren't particularly Zionist until the mid-twentieth century. More emigrants went to the US and elsewhere.



A friend of mine – now dead I suspect – was on an RN vessel which was supposed to try and keep the ships from coming in. These blockades largely failed.

But as always the British empire sent mixed messages, and also set groups against each other. If there's one very bad legacy of British imperialism it's the ethnic/religious divisions in many former colonies (and continuing in Northern Ireland)

I do think the UK played a far bigger part in Zionism than the USA did initially. However, the USA clearly keeps the place going these days. Israel gets a huge stipend off the USA each year which keeps the place going and funds their massive military expenditure (which includes nuclear weapons and spy satellites).



Disraeli has remarkably little to do with the whole enterprise given his background. In the 19th century, most British Jews weren't into the idea, and a number of rabbis even condemned the idea of a Jewish state. Only late did anti-Zionism become a minority view among Jews.

If you dig back into the history it was often Protestant Christians who were major promoters of the view. Orde Wingate is one of the more prominent ones. If you want to go way back, Oliver Cromwell suggested the idea back at a time when practically no Jews would countenance it.
The Jews weren't given the land of France, Turkey, Italy, Greece ... etc by God. Neither do they have as long a history in those places as they do in Israel/Judah.
The Jews were in these places before Jesus Christ was even born and the main Diaspora happened. The Jewish population of France and Italy may date back to the time of the Greek colonies in Marseilles and southern Italy. The populations in some parts of the Middle East are even older. The populations in Egypt and Iraq may have roots going back to the Babylonian Exile.

Paul was such a person, coming from modern day Turkey. Simon of Cyrene who carried the cross was likely a Jewish Libyan. Jesus himself spent time in the Egyptian Jewish population according to Matthew 2:13.

There were ancient populations in places like Syria and Lebanon that are now gone (completely?) thanks to the creation of the State of Israel. Some parts of these places may count as part of the Holy Land (Sinai in Egypt, arguably too.)

Ethiopian and Indian Jewish populations may date back at least two thousand years, before the time of Christ.

If the two of us were to go back two thousand years in our ancestry, we would find people living in France, the Low Countries, Germany, Denmark, Norway, probably even Spain and beyond. There are a lot of Scandinavian words used in the places we live in and some obvious cultural links.
But Jewish history goes back to Moses... at least. When the Israelites left Egypt to go to the promised land, they weren't nipping off to France or Greece for a bit of a jolly. It's not as if they didn't like the look of the Canaan brochure so caught the first camel train to Turkey instead.

Even if we take God out of the picture, the Israelites obtained the land in battle. They fought for it and won. Pretty much the same as any other peoples did to obtain their lands. Danes, Normans, Celts, Saxons... the list goes on.
And in the modern era they have done the same. They have fought and won... repeatedly.

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 20th, 2023, 5:54 am
by Niemand
Robin Hood wrote: March 20th, 2023, 5:30 am But Jewish history goes back to Moses... at least. When the Israelites left Egypt to go to the promised land, they weren't nipping off to France or Greece for a bit of a jolly. It's not as if they didn't like the look of the Canaan brochure so caught the first camel train to Turkey instead.

Even if we take God out of the picture, the Israelites obtained the land in battle. They fought for it and won. Pretty much the same as any other peoples did to obtain their lands. Danes, Normans, Celts, Saxons... the list goes on.
And in the modern era they have done the same. They have fought and won... repeatedly.
Modern Zionism tends to go back to a Jewish fringe movement which was very unpopular initially, and maybe the Haskolah (Jewish Enlightenment). Now Zionism is mainstream. Some ultra-Orthodox Jews reject the state of Israel to this day which they say must be established by Messiah. There are also some Jews and Israelis who are disgusted by the actions of the Israeli Government and military. I can see the logic in both of these last two positions.

Even British supporters of a Jewish territory didn't always favour Palestine. The British also offered a territory to the Jews which was to be in Uganda (a bad idea), and another in Western Australia (a much better idea).

I would argue that Christians were more instrumental in pushing Zionism initially in the 19th century than Jews. Most East European Jews wanted to migrate to either Western Europe or the New World, not the Middle East. I can see why. The USA or even Australia and Argentina had better prospects and without the presence of a major and highly hostile indigenous population... and crumbling infrastructure. Palestine was something of a backwater back in the day, consisting of malarial swamps, deserts, and a number of ruins.

Did the Jews conquer modern Israel? Not quite. The present day situation is largely the result of colonisation and settlement under British and Ottoman rule. One of the minor Rothschilds used his money to buy up land from Ottomans (hardly conquest), and the British marched in and took the place. I'd agree the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights were all conquered by the IDF. The Negev, Galilee and coastal regions weren't in any traditional sense... they were handed to them.

Even today, the majority of Jews live outwith Israel, despite massive immigration there. The following piechart demonstrates that. But it too excludes a number of other groups such as the Lemba in Africa, crypto-Jews (a few populations in Spain and elsewhere), Samaritans/Karaites, certain Jewish converts and so on. In turn, a number of Jewish Israelis have also emigrated from there and live elsewhere.

Ironically a significant number of present day Israelis would not be eligible for the Law of Return nowadays, if they were foreign born, because neither they, their parents or grandparents have been practising Jews. The large number of Russians/ex-Soviets in Israel is down to Communist bureaucracy, where you could register as a Jew, without practising or having much Jewish ancestry. In one or two cases, Russian gentiles have bought Jewish identity to get an Israeli passport. This would not be possible for their equivalents elsewhere. A British citizen with no practising Jewish grandparents and only one with a vague Jewish background would not get into Israel.(On the flipside Arab Christians, Muslims, Samaritans and Druze in Israel/Palestine are also of Jewish descent being descended from converts, and obtain citizenship(s) by domicile.)

Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin

Posted: March 20th, 2023, 8:17 am
by Robin Hood
Niemand wrote: March 20th, 2023, 5:54 am
Robin Hood wrote: March 20th, 2023, 5:30 am But Jewish history goes back to Moses... at least. When the Israelites left Egypt to go to the promised land, they weren't nipping off to France or Greece for a bit of a jolly. It's not as if they didn't like the look of the Canaan brochure so caught the first camel train to Turkey instead.

Even if we take God out of the picture, the Israelites obtained the land in battle. They fought for it and won. Pretty much the same as any other peoples did to obtain their lands. Danes, Normans, Celts, Saxons... the list goes on.
And in the modern era they have done the same. They have fought and won... repeatedly.
Modern Zionism tends to go back to a Jewish fringe movement which was very unpopular initially, and maybe the Haskolah (Jewish Enlightenment). Now Zionism is mainstream. Some ultra-Orthodox Jews reject the state of Israel to this day which they say must be established by Messiah. There are also some Jews and Israelis who are disgusted by the actions of the Israeli Government and military. I can see the logic in both of these last two positions.

Even British supporters of a Jewish territory didn't always favour Palestine. The British also offered a territory to the Jews which was to be in Uganda (a bad idea), and another in Western Australia (a much better idea).

I would argue that Christians were more instrumental in pushing Zionism initially in the 19th century than Jews. Most East European Jews wanted to migrate to either Western Europe or the New World, not the Middle East. I can see why. The USA or even Australia and Argentina had better prospects and without the presence of a major and highly hostile indigenous population... and crumbling infrastructure. Palestine was something of a backwater back in the day, consisting of malarial swamps, deserts, and a number of ruins.

Did the Jews conquer modern Israel? Not quite. The present day situation is largely the result of colonisation and settlement under British and Ottoman rule. One of the minor Rothschilds used his money to buy up land from Ottomans (hardly conquest), and the British marched in and took the place. I'd agree the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights were all conquered by the IDF. The Negev, Galilee and coastal regions weren't in any traditional sense... they were handed to them.

Even today, the majority of Jews live outwith Israel, despite massive immigration there. The following piechart demonstrates that. But it too excludes a number of other groups such as the Lemba in Africa, crypto-Jews (a few populations in Spain and elsewhere), Samaritans/Karaites, certain Jewish converts and so on. In turn, a number of Jewish Israelis have also emigrated from there and live elsewhere.

Ironically a significant number of present day Israelis would not be eligible for the Law of Return nowadays, if they were foreign born, because neither they, their parents or grandparents have been practising Jews. The large number of Russians/ex-Soviets in Israel is down to Communist bureaucracy, where you could register as a Jew, without practising or having much Jewish ancestry. In one or two cases, Russian gentiles have bought Jewish identity to get an Israeli passport. This would not be possible for their equivalents elsewhere. A British citizen with no practising Jewish grandparents and only one with a vague Jewish background would not get into Israel.(On the flipside Arab Christians, Muslims, Samaritans and Druze in Israel/Palestine are also of Jewish descent being descended from converts, and obtain citizenship(s) by domicile.)
Within days of the UN recognition of the state of Israel, the surrounding Arab countries went to war in order to destroy it (so much for respecting UN resolutions).
Israel fought for its life and defeated the enemy, taking significant territory in the process. In fact, every time the Arabs had a go at them Israel came off victorious with more territory coming under its control. I think conquest is a suitable word.