Re: My List Of America’s Top Ten Worst Presidents by Chuck Baldwin
Posted: March 20th, 2023, 10:30 am
The Arabs still seem to be great at guerilla activity and poor at running standing armies. (Maybe a bit like the Irish Free State) I take this to be a relic of Ottoman imperialism. They never seem to have decent officers (and their brass bands are painful to listen to... if you ever get bored online look up compilations of national anthems as played by them.) Arab military equipment was also shockingly bad back then. Things have evened up a bit since then, mostly with Soviet military training and armaments, but American money ensures the Israelis can maintain nukes, spy satellites, and all kinds of other things.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 8:17 amWithin days of the UN recognition of the state of Israel, the surrounding Arab countries went to war in order to destroy it (so much for respecting UN resolutions).Niemand wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 5:54 amModern Zionism tends to go back to a Jewish fringe movement which was very unpopular initially, and maybe the Haskolah (Jewish Enlightenment). Now Zionism is mainstream. Some ultra-Orthodox Jews reject the state of Israel to this day which they say must be established by Messiah. There are also some Jews and Israelis who are disgusted by the actions of the Israeli Government and military. I can see the logic in both of these last two positions.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 5:30 am But Jewish history goes back to Moses... at least. When the Israelites left Egypt to go to the promised land, they weren't nipping off to France or Greece for a bit of a jolly. It's not as if they didn't like the look of the Canaan brochure so caught the first camel train to Turkey instead.
Even if we take God out of the picture, the Israelites obtained the land in battle. They fought for it and won. Pretty much the same as any other peoples did to obtain their lands. Danes, Normans, Celts, Saxons... the list goes on.
And in the modern era they have done the same. They have fought and won... repeatedly.
Even British supporters of a Jewish territory didn't always favour Palestine. The British also offered a territory to the Jews which was to be in Uganda (a bad idea), and another in Western Australia (a much better idea).
I would argue that Christians were more instrumental in pushing Zionism initially in the 19th century than Jews. Most East European Jews wanted to migrate to either Western Europe or the New World, not the Middle East. I can see why. The USA or even Australia and Argentina had better prospects and without the presence of a major and highly hostile indigenous population... and crumbling infrastructure. Palestine was something of a backwater back in the day, consisting of malarial swamps, deserts, and a number of ruins.
Did the Jews conquer modern Israel? Not quite. The present day situation is largely the result of colonisation and settlement under British and Ottoman rule. One of the minor Rothschilds used his money to buy up land from Ottomans (hardly conquest), and the British marched in and took the place. I'd agree the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights were all conquered by the IDF. The Negev, Galilee and coastal regions weren't in any traditional sense... they were handed to them.
Even today, the majority of Jews live outwith Israel, despite massive immigration there. The following piechart demonstrates that. But it too excludes a number of other groups such as the Lemba in Africa, crypto-Jews (a few populations in Spain and elsewhere), Samaritans/Karaites, certain Jewish converts and so on. In turn, a number of Jewish Israelis have also emigrated from there and live elsewhere.
Ironically a significant number of present day Israelis would not be eligible for the Law of Return nowadays, if they were foreign born, because neither they, their parents or grandparents have been practising Jews. The large number of Russians/ex-Soviets in Israel is down to Communist bureaucracy, where you could register as a Jew, without practising or having much Jewish ancestry. In one or two cases, Russian gentiles have bought Jewish identity to get an Israeli passport. This would not be possible for their equivalents elsewhere. A British citizen with no practising Jewish grandparents and only one with a vague Jewish background would not get into Israel.(On the flipside Arab Christians, Muslims, Samaritans and Druze in Israel/Palestine are also of Jewish descent being descended from converts, and obtain citizenship(s) by domicile.)
Israel fought for its life and defeated the enemy, taking significant territory in the process. In fact, every time the Arabs had a go at them Israel came off victorious with more territory coming under its control. I think conquest is a suitable word.
The Jewish leaders had a good range of military me, mostly trained up in the British Army. And guerilla activity (Orde Wingate who I mentioned earlier had experience with the Chindits and supplying Tito.) Some in other militaries, along with some who had been involved in revolutions in Europe such as Bela Kun's in Hungary. A very different dynamic. They also had an advantage in that they had many spies and sympathisers in developed countries. Israel had Arab countries against them, but it also had backdoor access to good military equipment.
It's clear that the Israelis were better trained in military tactics of all kinds, although I think some of the Arab commanders they had fought were also trained up at Sandhurst. Some would have worked with Lawrence of Arabia.