Most Sustainable Agricultural Production Model(s)/Scale(s)?

[Seed Starter]

I am going to say again, the book I mentioned has all of this information, and so much I can't do much besides say read the book and add it to your knowledge base. Your area is ideal mudflap.

Parching corn has similar benefits to nixtamalition. There was a reason people carried a bag of it with them since a tablespoon could sustain a person for a day.

. Anyhow, read the book.

Anyone have a cheaper source? Perhaps there is a pdf available.
https://www.amazon.com/Parker-Iroquois- ... 0815621248

Edit, this is more like it
https://www.amazon.com/Parker-Iroquois- ... 173&sr=1-1

[David13]

I think I see somewhat of a misconception here of people with regard to both the Egyptians and the Indians, (Iriquois, Illinois, Utes, etc, et alia.)

I don't believe in either culture the process was to go to the Egyptian rulers, or the tribal chieftans and get a permit, pay a fee, and receive the "official" guidelines and templates for agriculture.

I think a lot or maybe even all of it had to do with using and adapting natural conditions. And probably a lot of trail and error, and local variations.
dc

[Niemand]

I think I see somewhat of a misconception here of people with regard to both the Egyptians and the Indians, (Iriquois, Illinois, Utes, etc, et alia.)

I don't believe in either culture the process was to go to the Egyptian rulers, or the tribal chieftans and get a permit, pay a fee, and receive the "official" guidelines and templates for agriculture.

I think a lot or maybe even all of it had to do with using and adapting natural conditions. And probably a lot of trail and error, and local variations.
dc

In the case of Egypt, it was the Egyptian rulers who built the larger storehouses. Maybe that's why they loved cats so much – they destroy mice and rats. As do snakes also a pharaohnic symbol.

[Seed Starter]

Here is a seed longevity chart from the Nebraska extension: Look at the onions I laugh at my older self for buying a big can of SHTF seeds. I'm sure some would still work but I wouldn't have known how to turn them into food very well back then. I do now. It's rare that I go a month without buying 5 lbs of seed. I grow microgreens though. Microgreens may be a good addition to any household since you can grow them indoors in winter. Learning how to save seed would be important during a 2 year SHTF especially if you wanted to use the yard of a less than prepared neighbor to increase food production.

https://gardenprofessors.com/seedstorage/

[RaVaN]

@Seed Starter

One of the reasons it is annoying to find online for a decent price is that it wasn't available for republishing til like 2008 when it was released again. It is an old book written by an a member of the tribe back in the late 1800s early 1900s or something...my point being is that is wasn't written from an outsider point of view.

It is technical and historical in how things were done as well as how communities with the confederation worked on a small level and large. It is how I can see Zion actually working and showed a form of all things common.

It shows how they were defeated, not by force of arms, but being reduced to starvation since the united states didn't go after the people so much as destroying their food stores and production which according to the military reports were amazingly substantial. The the book goes into great detail on how they produced and stored and processed mass amount of food on a local and national level.

Anyhow, I see this as one of the best books we are to learn from. In my view it sits below my scriptures as some of the best books I have ever read and being so incredibly useful. Just one example is what I was doing wrong with the three sisters method. Track down those heirlooms or the ones the native people used in your area. There is a reason those were used.

. Anyhow, I can wax on and on about it, but there is a reason I give copies out to people in my area. The methods outlined in that book are so simple and required basically no infrastructure besides found object tools, seeds, and a willingness to work side by side.

[Seed Starter]

@Seed Starter

One of the reasons it is annoying to find online for a decent price is that it wasn't available for republishing til like 2008 when it was released again. It is an old book written by an a member of the tribe back in the late 1800s early 1900s or something...my point being is that is wasn't written from an outsider point of view.

It is technical and historical in how things were done as well as how communities with the confederation worked on a small level and large. It is how I can see Zion actually working and showed a form of all things common.

It shows how they were defeated, not by force of arms, but being reduced to starvation since the united states didn't go after the people so much as destroying their food stores and production which according to the military reports were amazingly substantial. The the book goes into great detail on how they produced and stored and processed mass amount of food on a local and national level.

Anyhow, I see this as one of the best books we are to learn from. In my view it sits below my scriptures as some of the best books I have ever read and being so incredibly useful. Just one example is what I was doing wrong with the three sisters method. Track down those heirlooms or the ones the native people used in your area. There is a reason those were used.

. Anyhow, I can wax on and on about it, but there is a reason I give copies out to people in my area. The methods outlined in that book are so simple and required basically no infrastructure besides found object tools, seeds, and a willingness to work side by side.

Thank you! I'll pick one (or 3) up. I'm curious to know more about how they were defeated and what things I can emulate good things where I live. It seems alcohol began to play (still does) a big role in the destruction of many indigenous people in North America.

[endlessQuestions]

@Seed Starter

One of the reasons it is annoying to find online for a decent price is that it wasn't available for republishing til like 2008 when it was released again. It is an old book written by an a member of the tribe back in the late 1800s early 1900s or something...my point being is that is wasn't written from an outsider point of view.

It is technical and historical in how things were done as well as how communities with the confederation worked on a small level and large. It is how I can see Zion actually working and showed a form of all things common.

It shows how they were defeated, not by force of arms, but being reduced to starvation since the united states didn't go after the people so much as destroying their food stores and production which according to the military reports were amazingly substantial. The the book goes into great detail on how they produced and stored and processed mass amount of food on a local and national level.

Anyhow, I see this as one of the best books we are to learn from. In my view it sits below my scriptures as some of the best books I have ever read and being so incredibly useful. Just one example is what I was doing wrong with the three sisters method. Track down those heirlooms or the ones the native people used in your area. There is a reason those were used.

. Anyhow, I can wax on and on about it, but there is a reason I give copies out to people in my area. The methods outlined in that book are so simple and required basically no infrastructure besides found object tools, seeds, and a willingness to work side by side.

Thank you! I'll pick one (or 3) up. I'm curious to know more about how they were defeated and what things I can emulate good things where I live. It seems alcohol began to play (still does) a big role in the destruction of many indigenous people in North America.

I bought one.

[LostCreekAcres]

If you haven't, check out the Back to Eden gardening method. Personally, I love it. In the past, when we lived at the farm, the local tree trimmers would dump all their tree trimmings next to our barn. I had huge piles of compost brewing there. I never even turned. It was great stuff for planting everything in. Back to Eden's website has a free video (and they also sell it) that you can watch.
The other thing we are working on now is a food forest. You can look that up too. It's basically permaculture.

[tmac]

Lots of good thoughts and information here.

I’m going to throw out some food for thought.

Given the broad diversity of natural local conditions, including climates, elevations, and soils, etc., I don’t believe there is any one-size-fits-all answer. But my own view is that rather than looking to much modern technology for answers/solutions, it does make more sense to look at what the natives have been making work in any given location for centuries, if not millennia. From my perspective, the production methods/models that make the most sense are those that operate most harmoniously with nature, and local conditions, including climate.

And, having said all that, if you look across essentially the entire world, and across a broad diversity of productive and subsistent cultures and economies, if there is one production model/method that has withstood the test of time for millennia, since the dawn of humanity, it is regenerative, nomadic grazing/shepherding (hence the joke: Sheepherding — the world’s second oldest profession).

In my view, arid locations like the Great Basin, for example, are much better suited, on a long-term, sustainable basis, to nomadic grazing/shepherding than most other production models/methods.

As with most things, the primary key to success is the applicable skill set.

[RaVaN]

One thing I have noticed through the years when it comes to food production is people get lost in the romance of certain trends as well as the idea of you can escape the "sweat of your brow". Others get trapped in the "There can only be one". Fact is there is many ways to the same goal. Having the mental tools is far more useful.

I use both a no-till and a till system. I don't have time for a straight no-till. I use a tiller to prepare my gardens in the spring and to put them to bed in the fall. All other work is hoe work or hand work. My food gardens are about 20,000 square feet and all about feeding people with the least amount of work since my companion and I are drywall finishers and we both come home tired. We raise goats and have to herd them in spring/summer to keep the food costs down...which takes about 2 hours a day. I am always looking for more efficient ways of doing stuff that uses stuff we have around. Basically, we try to use methods of food production that keeps the dependence on Babylon down. We succeed and fail at this. Division of labor is important. We use a skidsteer for alot of things (firewood gathering, land clearing, and suchlike). It makes no sense for me to run it when I am better used running the chainsaw, splitting the wood, hooking up the logs...so we decided skid steer running is her work. She's better at it than me too. Reasoned division of labor that is not bound up in some silly male/female paradigm. One flesh type mindset supporting each other as helpmeets.

We produce alot of food. Generally those around us refuse it even though we offer it free if you go and pick it yourself and abide the rules. It really baffles me. Free eggs, yet most of our neighbors will only take them if they are short on cash, prefering to go to the store. Anyhow, it just confuses me.

So as to growing lotsa food. Cabbage, corn, pole beans, carrots, onions, tomatoes, potatoes, peas, cucumbers, peppers, and much much more. Learn fermentation and hoard five gallon buckets...they are valuable. Food value increases through fermentation and allows you to store food easier...plus fermented pickles are just better. "wild fermentation" by Sandar Ellix Katz is one of the best books on fermentation.

Dehydrating food makes it shelf stable. Many ways to achieve this. We turn our greenhouse into a giant dehydrator during harvest (you can fit a pumpkin in a jar). The native Americans did this with great success.

Our big thing we lack in our area is salt. Closest salt is hundreds of miles away. Right now salt is dirt cheap, you can get 50lbs for 7 dollars...it behooves a person to know where their salt store is. Useful item salt, and necessary for life.

Always remember food math. Things need 1 to 5 percent of bodyweight in wet food weight a day. I am talking healthy bodyweight too. This applies across most animals. Food math is important.
. Anyhow I ramble and hope people find this useful. Do what makes sense for you after asking God, he always has the best plan...but we all are guilty of sticking our fingers in our ears and throwing a tantrum...much to our everlasting shame.

[Momma J]

Native Americans used to grow spearmint alongside maize and potatoes, because it fixes nitrogen in the soil and deters pests. It has taken years for modern agriculture to get back to the idea of companion plants.

I have added a number of companion plants that either deter harmful bugs or attract pollinators. Trying to relearn everything my parents taught me.

[mtpop]

There are ways to do long-term sustainable gardening. One way is this.
https://youtu.be/qGI8AFce-5A

[Niemand]

Native Americans used to grow spearmint alongside maize and potatoes, because it fixes nitrogen in the soil and deters pests. It has taken years for modern agriculture to get back to the idea of companion plants.

I have added a number of companion plants that either deter harmful bugs or attract pollinators. Trying to relearn everything my parents taught me.

Lavender is a good one to attract bees. It flowers for long periods and they love it.

[Momma J]

Native Americans used to grow spearmint alongside maize and potatoes, because it fixes nitrogen in the soil and deters pests. It has taken years for modern agriculture to get back to the idea of companion plants.

I have added a number of companion plants that either deter harmful bugs or attract pollinators. Trying to relearn everything my parents taught me.

Lavender is a good one to attract bees. It flowers for long periods and they love it.

Thanks, I need to look through my seeds to see if I have any!

[Seed Starter]

Native Americans used to grow spearmint alongside maize and potatoes, because it fixes nitrogen in the soil and deters pests. It has taken years for modern agriculture to get back to the idea of companion plants.

I have added a number of companion plants that either deter harmful bugs or attract pollinators. Trying to relearn everything my parents taught me.

I just started some borage for the first time just for bees. Our giant sunflowers always have pollen loaded visitors but the more the better since one of our neighbors has bees. Something else I've noticed with bees is shallow water seems to attract them, like a slight trickle on cement.

[Seed Starter]

I have added a number of companion plants that either deter harmful bugs or attract pollinators. Trying to relearn everything my parents taught me.

Lavender is a good one to attract bees. It flowers for long periods and they love it.

Thanks, I need to look through my seeds to see if I have any!

If you haven't started any before I would suggest watching a few videos on starting and growing that. Lavender is great!

[mudflap]

https://www.ruralsprout.com/compost-in-14-days/

[Cruiserdude]

https://www.ruralsprout.com/compost-in-14-days/

Well done article, I forwarded that on to a couple folks. That's important knowledge to have.

[harakim]

Based on some of the comments on the water pumping thread, I’m going to start a separate, new thread devoted to this question.

I am genuinely curious about people’s’ thoughts about what kind of agricultural production model(s) and scale(s) of production are going to be most sustainable in a long-term SHTF scenario? And what is your reasoning? For purposes of this discussion, I’ll define “long-term” as anything over two full years. And I realize some don’t believe any realistic SHTF scenario could/will last that long.

By production model, I’m referring to produce (fruit & vegetable) farming, versus grain production, versus hay production, versus livestock production, including essentially all species, as well as dairy, etc., and production methods, including everything from plowing with oxen to “smart pharming.” And, by scale, I am referring to size.

Again, mostly just curious.

I think the large mono-crop style of growing food is a big problem and the limiting factor on how big a farm should be. It leads to disease, pests, nutrient depletion and probably other problems. What size does it have to be before the locusts descend or some beetle ruins your crops? I don't know. Before pesticides, clouds of grasshoppers would appear and pick the earth clean in the great plains periodically. Once they were there, there was nothing you could do except eat them. I think that's why locusts are one of the two insects specifically allowed in a kosher diet.

I think you're on the right track splitting up fruit and vegetables and grain production. First of all, you don't actually need fruits and vegetables. You can eat native plants. Have I mentioned the book The Wild Wisdom of Weeds? We do like fruits and vegetables though. I think this is best handled on a family to family basis with limited interchange. With square foot gardening, a family can grow all of the crops they need to survive. It honestly doesn't save a whole lot of time for someone else to specialize and grow them. An apple tree produces more apples than most people want. So when it comes to trees, it might make sense to grow some trees and exchange produce with neighbors instead of grow 1 or 2 of every single kind of tree at each property.

There is so much to this topic, lol. One aside is that Jamestown Virginia was set up with no personal accountability and it failed. I don't know what the real story is, but I have read that so many times and I believe it. Each family in charge of their own fruits and vegetables holds them accountable and gives them a clear work assignment and reward.

Now saving seeds could be the job of one member of the community. That is fairly time consuming. Producing tools could be the job of one family. With square foot gardening, you don't really need many tools, though. Anything else, like irrigation, would be handled by a community effort on community property and individually by the individual property owners. Plowing could be handled by one member of the community, but it's only needed for larger scale production.

I have little to no experience growing grains or other crops usually grown on a large scale. They have been grown on a large scale for a long time, even where other crops were not. So I think there is probably a benefit of having a community member specialize in this.

So, if you had nothing else to worry about, I think two families could manage their own agriculture without modern conveniences, including producing their tools and saving seeds. Based on my personal experience, I think they could also manage chickens, a cow and meat. However, agriculture won't be happening in a vacuum.

Other people mentioned overall community size. An Amish person once told me that they need 12 to 18 families to have a community. When it dips below that, they usually leave and form other communities. Now, anyone who knows the Amish knows that a community that size is not at all self-sufficient. However, I think probably somewhere between 10 and 30 families is the point where you would be self-sufficient in a grid down scenario, not considering defense against other humans. The x factor of other malicious groups is so wide-ranging in how you have to prepare for it that it's almost not worth preparing for anything larger than a small group of malevolents.

The reason I stick to property ownership in this scenario is that we don't have a good way to share expectations with people and help them see the value. Individual ownership clearly delineates that ownership in a way that pretty much can't be misunderstood. People will follow just about any normative system that is predictable and likely doesn't lead to their death. That's a whole other topic though.

Another point is how much training these families have had and how well their skills fit together.

I think you would want to avoid modern conveniences like a tractor until you had a solid model of your community worked out. Every modern convenience was built on thousands of years of specialized roles in society. It adds SO much complexity. I could do square foot gardening and fruit tree/bush gardening with tools I make from the land with no training and my own strength. As long as I remain healthy enough, there are no more dependencies that I will have to learn how maintain and no more places where I don't understand what is going on.

I think this topic could benefit from all the perspectives here and research but I don't think a forum is the best medium for it. I almost wonder if we could share a google drive or something and kind of compile our research.