LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 11:36 am**

John Tavner wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 9:22 am
Chip wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 8:53 am
John Tavner wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 8:37 am
Chip wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 8:24 am I feel the same way as expressed in the original post.

It seems to me that things would instantly become Zion-like if the wicked would just drop dead, already. I am talking about all those who stymie truth, support evil, and have authority fetishes. We have all heard from them and we have made countless attempts to get them to acknowledge even the simplest of truths, but they fight all efforts. They love lies more than life. They are legion and all around us. They are intransigent. I see no change of heart coming from them, only further calcification. There is no remaining business left between them and us, it seems.

Is this self-righteousness? I am just worn out by them. Drained. What a relief it would be to just be around truthfull people.
I don't think it wold be zion like. Most of us have wrong thinking and perceptions. We think too much like the way that seems right to a man, which leads to death. What we can control is our belief of Jesus though, we can control how we react and perceive the world. That control is contingent upon us submitting to the Lord and giving up all that we think is right and embracing what He is in us. Belief is necessary, trust in necessary. Most of our despair comes from us not trusting God. Do we beleive Him? Do we believe His word? Do we believe He has a plan? Have we joined ourselves to His kingdom? If we haven't, we ought to and know that even if we think we aren't a part of His Kingdom, He sent HIS Son so we could be, and what He requires is taht we begin to believe it despite our weaknesses. When we accept we are in His kingdom through belief, then as our Lord, HE can govern us and guide us and transform us into His image, but if we constant run away and claim unworthiness to be in His Kingdom, then we reject His Lordship over our souls and will struggle with being transformed. God is good, and God will establish His Kingdom, the question is whether or not we let Him- first in Us, and then through us, to the world. Trust is the key, trust and submission to Him to let go of what we think is right in our own eyes and see Him and His character and what is right in His eyes. He will guide us, He will help us and He will transform us as we yield and let Him, We must be willing to join His kingdom and believe Jesus opened the gate, and all we can do is trust and walk towards it, beleiving God will accept us and He will. And we continue on that path and we will receive Life, know the Way, and know Truth.

The end of the world IS the destruction of the wicked.There's a reason it needs to happen.

Meanwhile, I am frustrated by what's afoot. I think I trust and yield to God, but maybe I'm not getting it by a longshot.
But the end is not yet. If we are getting frustrated- it means we aren't trusting God's timing. I'm not saying it isn't a temptation, but we have an answer. IT also means we aren't trusting God. I'm not saying this to accuse you, but show you there is a different perspective. We all miss it in some way, shape, or form, what i"m trying to do is encourage you to seek more after the Lord and to trust Him more, to realize you are in His Kingdom and HE will take care of you, whether in death or life unto Salvation. To seek to love as HE loved, for Charity is the most important of all gifts and without it we are nothing. Not love the way the world sees it, but Christ. If we get focused too much on what isn't, rather than what we've been given, then we will always have that "worm" within us that never dies and rots us. God loves you, He knows you, and you are not alone. As we draw near to Him, He draws near to us. We can understand and suffer, but rejoice in our trials because the push us more towards God. It is transformative. We are taught that we must be renewed daily in our minds by the knowledge of Christ. IF we lose hope and stop focusing on Christ our heart is no longer guarded and deception and wickedness can creep in our own lives... How else do you think almost all the people of the Nephites joined the Gadiantons? Keep your ey one HIm, He has called you His and will not forsake you. He came so you could have relationship and become like Him, not to condemn you. Ther ewill be final judgment, but hte time is not yet. Trust, b elieve, and let Him transform you dialy into His image- then you will see Him more and see how much He is doing a work today.

A friend just sent me this, which speaks to what you were saying.

: 91819.jpeg (567.86 KiB) Viewed 649 times

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 11:43 am**

GansoTonto wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 7:03 am As it stands, America is dead, and has been for some time now. Everything we have been seeing now is just the rotting of the corpse. I see no hope for my children to live in a land or community with even a shadow of good old fashion morality, liberty, and similar American/Christian ideals. I can't stand it and am always in a solemn mind because of it.

I am myself no clean vessel for the Lord, I have not his Spirit within me though I pray for this heavenly gift often. Nevertheless, I cannot stand idly by and watch my god and my country be trampled under foot unimpeded and myself feel any peace. But what is there to do? Can one uninspired, broken, unclean vessel effectuate any lasting change for the good?

It seems like most people here and elsewhere fall into one of these groups:
- There is nothing we can do, God will take care of it.
- There is nothing meaningful we can do, God will send his servant(s) to take care of it.
- There are things that can be done, but nobody else cares enough to make any meaningful change for the better.
- The only thing anyone can do is make sure they themselves are saved( and watch on the sidelines as the rest of the world digs themself into a pit).
- Any combination or variation of the above paradigms which all inevitably bear fruit of complacency, vanity, hopelessness, self-righteousness, and/or embitterment towards your fellowmen.

I want to do things to help heal America and I have lots of ideas that I think are actionable. There are only one or two more little wrinkles that I am currently ironing out before I can get to work on it. But before I waste the better part of the rest of my life on a wild goose, what say you?

Am I wasting my time? Have you all given up on America and what it stood for? Do you really all think that after we throw away the foundation America was founded on that God will swoop in with a ready-made replacement for us all? In what state will the master find His house when He comes? In what work will He find His servants? Has anyone here read the Odyssey?

With a heart full of hope I make this thread. May it find you all well.

Mormon had the same feelings you are expressing, as he watched the complete destruction of his civilization. Mormon 6:17-21. We are repeating the history of the nations that possessed this land and turned from God. We can only prepare ourselves and our families for the Savior's return, cry repentance to those around us who will listen, and like Lehi and his family be prepared to follow God's council to us on how and when to take our families out of this society's system when the time comes.

We can do nothing to change the tide of the consequences of the actions that have brought our nation to this point. The secret combinations are deep and real and control every aspect of our government, education, military, financial, Judicial, food production, and medical systems. We now, after all the research being contributed by Endless Questions all over the board, know that our church leaders, yes, our Profit in Chief is one of the members in multiple secret combination societies (Skull and Bones, Owl and Key, Sigma Chi).

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 11:53 am**

Original_Intent wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 11:27 am
tmac wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 11:22 am
Chip wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 11:13 am
Really, what else is there to do?
Repent. That is the most important thing we can do. And if we don’t really think we need to, it is only because we don’t even know what we don’t know.
And worse, we incorrectly are absolutely certain about things that are wrong.

One thing that I do find quite interesting, especially (and increasingly) here on LDSFF is the degree of pride expressed and/or demonstrated (often manifest as disdain for others) about the extent to which people feel like they’ve got it all figured out, and know exactly what is wrong, and why.

But I think JK4 hit the nail on the head. We have been operating in a leadership vacuum for decades — no, make that at least a century, going on two. In the meantime, we have just been floundering around with fairly minimal Divine leadership it seems. If there is one thing the “Christian” world has been lacking, it is genuine leadership. But, would we actually follow?

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 12:07 pm**

Chip wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 11:13 am
tmac wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 10:45 am Meanwhile, it’s not just a matter of our generals (and leadership on down the ranks) not standing up and leading a fight against the enemy — they are in bed with the enemy. They have capitulated to the enemy and rolled out the red carpet. At this point they are not actually leading in any way, shape or form. They are just following . . . the World, in lockstep, and fully encouraging their own followers to just fall-in behind.

Meanwhile, confusion reigns, and those who can actually see what is really going on seem to have a hard time agreeing and uniting on much of anything, so nothing else seems to gain much traction and/or critical mass. In the mass confusion, all most people can seem to do is focus on what they disagree about rather than what they might be able to agree, and do something about.
Yes, our leaders have made a covenant with death and hell and are going to get wiped out. We can read Isaiah and wait on the Lord. Really, what else is there to do?

I've felt like this and you are correct about our leaders. I have the feeling that things are about to get much worse very quickly and that the true nature of our characters is about to be revealed. I know that we will be tried in the "crucible of affliction" and I've been praying for strength in the face of adversity. I've been asking God not to let me fail and to point me always in the right direction. I've been praying that anger will be removed from me because I understand how destructive this emotion can be. This is from a guy who last summer punched out a rack of kids clothing at the local Walmart because it had gay crap on them. I've been praying that if it is my lot to die in testimony of the Saviour that I do so willingly. Joseph Smith did not beg for help with his Masonic plea; he was telling the hooded men that he knew exactly who they were. Et tu, Brute?

It is my sincere hope and prayer that I will be always willing to share my last morsel of food with a hungry soul even though I know it might be my last bite. I'm 65 years old and have experienced enough of Babylon to know that we are living in hell. In "The Ascension of Isaiah", Isaiah is being brought up through the various degrees of glory and in verse 9 below, Isaiah has just broken through the veil and finds himself in the spirit world.

Chapter 7

9. And we ascended to the firmament, I and he, and there I saw Sammael and his hosts, and there was great fighting therein and the angels of Satan were envying one another.
10. And as above so on the earth also; for the likeness of that which is in the firmament is here on the earth.
11. And I said unto the angel (who was with me): "(What is this war and) what is this envying?"
12. And he said unto me: "So has it been since this world was made until now, and this war (will continue) till He, whom thou shalt see will come and destroy him."

Mike

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 12:26 pm**

On the specific question of “Is there nothing we can do,” I’m going to throw this out there, (and I may be demonstrating some of my own feeble pride in the process), but this has become a fundamental measuring stick for me:

If people can’t see, and are not willing to do something about what is going on in our public school system at the most personal level (I.e., pull their kids out), I don’t trust their judgment about anything.

As some know, I turn quite a bit in Anabaptist (Amish/Mennonite) circles, and they have a lot of factions and diversity and things they disagree about, but aside from basic Christian values/service, etc., including the merits of a plain, simple, less worldly life, if there are a couple things that they essentially all agree about, it is with respect to the evils of public education and government programs.

In my view, anyone who is willing to talk about, or try to do anything else, without first pulling their precious children out of the Babylonian public school system, is getting the cart before the horse, skipping a foundational step, and probably doesn’t really know what they don’t know. It’s easy to talk the talk, but talk is cheap.

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 12:32 pm**

One of the fundamental question is: What can we do under the guise of the great eye of Sauron? I don’t think people understand the wealth, power, and influence of evil people running the world.

I say that, because I believe the things we can do will be small and will be local. Any direct offensive or threat to their positions of power will be met head on.

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 12:35 pm**

So, why talk about actually fighting Sauron while allowing him to completely indoctrinate your children?

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 12:35 pm**

Chip wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 11:36 am
John Tavner wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 9:22 am
Chip wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 8:53 am
John Tavner wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 8:37 am

I don't think it wold be zion like. Most of us have wrong thinking and perceptions. We think too much like the way that seems right to a man, which leads to death. What we can control is our belief of Jesus though, we can control how we react and perceive the world. That control is contingent upon us submitting to the Lord and giving up all that we think is right and embracing what He is in us. Belief is necessary, trust in necessary. Most of our despair comes from us not trusting God. Do we beleive Him? Do we believe His word? Do we believe He has a plan? Have we joined ourselves to His kingdom? If we haven't, we ought to and know that even if we think we aren't a part of His Kingdom, He sent HIS Son so we could be, and what He requires is taht we begin to believe it despite our weaknesses. When we accept we are in His kingdom through belief, then as our Lord, HE can govern us and guide us and transform us into His image, but if we constant run away and claim unworthiness to be in His Kingdom, then we reject His Lordship over our souls and will struggle with being transformed. God is good, and God will establish His Kingdom, the question is whether or not we let Him- first in Us, and then through us, to the world. Trust is the key, trust and submission to Him to let go of what we think is right in our own eyes and see Him and His character and what is right in His eyes. He will guide us, He will help us and He will transform us as we yield and let Him, We must be willing to join His kingdom and believe Jesus opened the gate, and all we can do is trust and walk towards it, beleiving God will accept us and He will. And we continue on that path and we will receive Life, know the Way, and know Truth.

The end of the world IS the destruction of the wicked.There's a reason it needs to happen.

Meanwhile, I am frustrated by what's afoot. I think I trust and yield to God, but maybe I'm not getting it by a longshot.
But the end is not yet. If we are getting frustrated- it means we aren't trusting God's timing. I'm not saying it isn't a temptation, but we have an answer. IT also means we aren't trusting God. I'm not saying this to accuse you, but show you there is a different perspective. We all miss it in some way, shape, or form, what i"m trying to do is encourage you to seek more after the Lord and to trust Him more, to realize you are in His Kingdom and HE will take care of you, whether in death or life unto Salvation. To seek to love as HE loved, for Charity is the most important of all gifts and without it we are nothing. Not love the way the world sees it, but Christ. If we get focused too much on what isn't, rather than what we've been given, then we will always have that "worm" within us that never dies and rots us. God loves you, He knows you, and you are not alone. As we draw near to Him, He draws near to us. We can understand and suffer, but rejoice in our trials because the push us more towards God. It is transformative. We are taught that we must be renewed daily in our minds by the knowledge of Christ. IF we lose hope and stop focusing on Christ our heart is no longer guarded and deception and wickedness can creep in our own lives... How else do you think almost all the people of the Nephites joined the Gadiantons? Keep your ey one HIm, He has called you His and will not forsake you. He came so you could have relationship and become like Him, not to condemn you. Ther ewill be final judgment, but hte time is not yet. Trust, b elieve, and let Him transform you dialy into His image- then you will see Him more and see how much He is doing a work today.

A friend just sent me this, which speaks to what you were saying.

91819.jpeg

Amen, brother!

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 12:39 pm**

tmac wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 12:35 pm So, why talk about actually fighting Sauron while allowing him to completely indoctrinate your children?

Where did I suggest allowing evil people to indoctrinate our children? You must have missed my second point. Pull your kids out of the Babylonian system. Educate them yourself. Stop playing by their rules.

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 1:06 pm**

tmac wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 12:35 pm So, why talk about actually fighting Sauron while allowing him to completely indoctrinate your children?

The title suggests it will provide solutions *and perhaps they are obliquely)
https://quoththeraven.substack.com/p/ho ... ew-gordian

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 1:13 pm**

tmac wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 12:35 pm So, why talk about actually fighting Sauron while allowing him to completely indoctrinate your children?

It was a rhetorical question, not directed at you specifically.

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 1:17 pm**

The first thing we should do is make sure we are not unwittingly aiding and abetting the enemy.

I admit, I did have our sons publicly educated, but I also supplemented it by discussing many things at home and having both boys study and understand logic, ethics, philosophy, and economics. Not optimal, but my wife felt unqualified to teach them and I was working full time. We tried private school bu just could not financially manage it.

This may sound like a list of lame excuses and may actually be lame. I tried.

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 1:23 pm**

Original_Intent wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 1:17 pm The first thing we should do is make sure we are not unwittingly aiding and abetting the enemy.

I admit, I did have our sons publicly educated, but I also supplemented it by discussing many things at home and having both boys study and understand logic, ethics, philosophy, and economics. Not optimal, but my wife felt unqualified to teach them and I was working full time. We tried private school bu just could not financially manage it.

This may sound like a list of lame excuses and may actually be lame. I tried.

I think one of the greatest things we can do is to teach the rising generation about both our successes AND failures.

I mean, just look at the entirety of the BoM, in the end, it is a record of a fallen people.

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 2:07 pm**

Not sure this belongs here, but didn't want to start a new thread. Wealthion tends to have very thoughtful and thought-provoking guests.

Marc Farber raises the good point on retirement age. We are living longer so raise the retirement age? But on the other hand there are some workers like my career as a programmer and tech support that I could probably work until I die, but some of the hard laborers, construction workers and others that they are pretty beat up by their early 50s...no solutions are easy (well I accept that the entire SS system and similar system is completely a Ponzi scheme and is doomed to fail and just like any Ponzi, someone is going to be left robbed.)

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 2:29 pm**

Momma J wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 8:42 am…Besides bettering my tiny corner of the world, I have no idea how to make a real impact...

If everyone bettered their tiny corner of the world - the whole world would be better!

JP is kinda famous for talking practically how if you want to change the world, start with cleaning up your room. This 1 min clip talks about how we assume evil is out there somewhere - but it runs through each of us - & it’s best we each deal with our own issues. Then, we’ll be in a better position to deal with more.

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 2:35 pm**

Thinker wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 2:29 pm
Momma J wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 8:42 am…Besides bettering my tiny corner of the world, I have no idea how to make a real impact...
If everyone bettered their tiny corner of the world - the whole world would be better!

JP is kinda famous for talking practically how if you want to change the world, start with cleaning up your room. This 1 min clip talks about how we assume evil is out there somewhere - but it runs through each of us - & it’s best we each deal with our own issues. Then, we’ll be in a better position to deal with more.

Definitely multiple levels that can be taken on - which I love.
The first being, if you cleaned your room, you improved the world.
The broader message is that the VAST majority of those wanting to change the world have very messy rooms and are thus not QUALIFIED to take on the bigger job. And I'm sure you get that, just sayin' for those maybe less exposed to JP.

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 2:54 pm**

Original_Intent wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 2:35 pm
Thinker wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 2:29 pm If everyone bettered their tiny corner of the world - the whole world would be better!

JP is kinda famous for talking practically how if you want to change the world, start with cleaning up your room. This 1 min clip talks about how we assume evil is out there somewhere - but it runs through each of us - & it’s best we each deal with our own issues. Then, we’ll be in a better position to deal with more.

[youtube]lbfhAHNNjg0
Definitely multiple levels that can be taken on - which I love.
The first being, if you cleaned your room, you improved the world.
The broader message is that the VAST majority of those wanting to change the world have very messy rooms and are thus not QUALIFIED to take on the bigger job. And I'm sure you get that, just sayin' for those maybe less exposed to JP.

True.
To be able to make a positive difference on a big scale requires having an awareness on a big scale, starting with self-awareness.

A classic example:
Lds humanitarian efforts donated tons of clothes to poor areas, thinking they were helping. But that put “poor area” clothing vendors out of business who couldn’t compete with free.

Sometimes I look back at some ignorant ways I acted when I was young, and I cringe because I see more now. On the other hand, we can’t wait until we’re all-knowing to go forward with active faith. But we can humbly be open to learning more before being too cocky in trying to “help” the world.

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 2:55 pm**

Original_Intent wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 1:17 pm… I did have our sons publicly educated, but I also supplemented it by discussing many things at home and having both boys study and understand logic, ethics, philosophy, and economics…

I admire that you took an active role in educating your kids - to help them think etc. Each’s circumstance is unique, so really nobody should slam a judge’s mallet as if what they believe about educating kids MUST be law for all. Did Jesus isolate himself from everyone - or did he learn to be stronger being faced so much with opposition?

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 3:36 pm**

Thinker wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 2:54 pm
Original_Intent wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 2:35 pm
Thinker wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 2:29 pm If everyone bettered their tiny corner of the world - the whole world would be better!

JP is kinda famous for talking practically how if you want to change the world, start with cleaning up your room. This 1 min clip talks about how we assume evil is out there somewhere - but it runs through each of us - & it’s best we each deal with our own issues. Then, we’ll be in a better position to deal with more.

[youtube]lbfhAHNNjg0
Definitely multiple levels that can be taken on - which I love.
The first being, if you cleaned your room, you improved the world.
The broader message is that the VAST majority of those wanting to change the world have very messy rooms and are thus not QUALIFIED to take on the bigger job. And I'm sure you get that, just sayin' for those maybe less exposed to JP.
True.
To be able to make a positive difference on a big scale requires having an awareness on a big scale, starting with self-awareness.

A classic example:
Lds humanitarian efforts donated tons of clothes to poor areas, thinking they were helping. But that put “poor area” clothing vendors out of business who couldn’t compete with free.

Sometimes I look back at some ignorant ways I acted when I was young, and I cringe because I see more now. On the other hand, we can’t wait until we’re all-knowing to go forward with active faith. But we can humbly be open to learning more before being too cocky in trying to “help” the world.

This is a serious problem in much of Africa. They have been unable to grow their own clothing industry, that they could use to raise revenue etc, because they keep getting our clothes dumped on them. If they developed their own industry, they would have both a domestic and a foreign market.

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 3:47 pm**

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 9:19 am At some point, Noah started spending more time working on the boat, than crying repentance. I think that's where we are at. Ain't much preaching left. Get your boat in order.

Good point. Nephi and Noah both built boats to flee Babylon. Oh Babylon we bid thee farewell. I'm in the packing stage right now and plan to sell but I'm not sure where to go later this year. I hope to be moved and starting to organize to be as self sufficient as I can. I've been doing a lot of research into hydro, solar and wind generation.

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 3:54 pm**

tmac wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 12:26 pm On the specific question of “Is there nothing we can do,” I’m going to throw this out there, (and I may be demonstrating some of my own feeble pride in the process), but this has become a fundamental measuring stick for me:

If people can’t see, and are not willing to do something about what is going on in our public school system at the most personal level (I.e., pull their kids out), I don’t trust their judgment about anything.

As some know, I turn quite a bit in Anabaptist (Amish/Mennonite) circles, and they have a lot of factions and diversity and things they disagree about, but aside from basic Christian values/service, etc., including the merits of a plain, simple, less worldly life, if there are a couple things that they essentially all agree about, it is with respect to the evils of public education and government programs.

In my view, anyone who is willing to talk about, or try to do anything else, without first pulling their precious children out of the Babylonian public school system, is getting the cart before the horse, skipping a foundational step, and probably doesn’t really know what they don’t know. It’s easy to talk the talk, but talk is cheap.

When I was writing my contribution above, I was thinking how the first battle would be to send a platoon of parents from every ward to every local school board meeting and making our stance known.

All wards in the US and Canada send, by Assignment or direction 40 ward members to every school board meeting. For the next two years. And actively participate in School Board Elections.

Doesn’t matter, who in the ward goes. Could be senior citizens who have been empty nesters for two decades, or pregnant soon to be moms and dads.

Get everyone to go.

For a city of the size of Las Vegas, with 28 stakes, that would be mean six or seven wards per stake times forty ward members means 7,840 LDS members would be showing up, every two weeks to the school board meetings.

Think that wouldn’t get their attention…?!?

Simple demands of accountability like no transgender encouragement, zero weirdos for story hours, public performance tracking, published curriculum by grade, etc.

Two years of activity like this, and the whole school system will be changed. For the better.

And guess what..? We’d likely be inundated by investigator families whose values align with our own.

We’d beat back satanism in the schools, and swell our ranks with full families who want to join us.

Just need an Area Seventy with the guts to stride out… because if we don’t… we will continually keep loosing ground…

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 4:44 pm**

I don’t think the public school system can be fixed. It is rotten to the core, and a bad, communist idea to start with. So, I don’t see the point of trying. Fixing the public education system would be like trying to fix the U.N. — it’s not possible.

Although it may seem like a good cause to try to fix the system for the benefit of everyone's else's children, the real priority should be on our own children, and separating them from essentially everything about the Babylonian public school system. It's not just the intentional, anti-Christian programming they receive there, it is also the very negative, non-productive, consumption-oriented socialization they receive.

But, if, as a first step towards DOING anything meaningful that might actually make a positive difference in the world as close to home as it gets, if parents are not in a position to take responsibility for education of their own precious children (like the Amish/Mennonites do), I don’t really see the point of trying to do much to try to “fix the system,” because it would be one step forward, two steps back, tilting at a windmill that isn't going to change. In my view, it just doesn’t make sense in a cost/benefit analysis.

So, I guess perhaps it all comes back to what people can agree about. With me, one thing I can always agree with is to completely separate from the public school system — because in my view, it will continue to ruin a lot more people before it is ever fixed.

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 7:04 pm**

tmac wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 10:45 am Meanwhile, it’s not just a matter of our generals (and leadership on down the ranks) not standing up and leading a fight against the enemy — they are in bed with the enemy. They have capitulated to the enemy and rolled out the red carpet. At this point they are not actually leading in any way, shape or form. They are just following . . . the World, in lockstep, and fully encouraging their own followers to just fall-in behind.

Meanwhile, confusion reigns, and those who can actually see what is really going on seem to have a hard time agreeing and uniting on much of anything, so nothing else seems to gain much traction and/or critical mass. In the mass confusion, all most people can seem to do is focus on what they disagree about rather than what they might be able to agree, and do something about.

and here we are (see bolded).
It is interesting how the far majority of the ostensibly 'righteous' can't get along with each other. Go figure.

my answer to the OP is :

It's all been prophesied to happen, why would there be motivation to somehow prevent it? Let it go as has been written.

and don't forget to horde popcorn before it starts.

So, relax and watch it unfold. and... get.out.of.the.cities. or you won't enjoy your popcorn

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 7:17 pm**

Pray for those responsible to repent.
If they do not repent, pray for them to be divided.
Pray for bad people to become good and the good to become righteous.
Pray for the plans of Antichrist to be thwarted and for the lives of the innocent.
Pray for the bad to become good and the good to become righteous.

Posted: **March 14th, 2023, 8:25 pm**

JohnnyL wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 9:33 am I believe there is much, much more work for us to do, in all three areas: perfecting the Saints, saving the dead, missionary work=gathering Israel!

We have, especially recently, been encouraged to get involved in politics.

We have been invited to support good causes, with time and money. Many groups persuade Congress for our rights and are always looking for time and money. Many political office campaigns, especially at the city, county, and district levels, could really use that help.
I'm sure Defending Utah wouldn't mind donations.

Maybe start with the 3 P's talk, and move forward from there?

right . lol.

We have, especially recently, been encouraged to get involved in politics.

involved in politics huh ? a... ya, as if it's going to change anything.
It won't .
Americas destiny, has already been foretold, and it's fate - sealed.

We have been invited to support good causes

good causes ?
ya like joining satan and becoming "Good Global Citizens",
and invited to get your "godsend.

time and money ?
oh you mean like the church does - donating millions to evil organizations

creator wrote: ↑August 20th, 2020, 12:57 am The LDS Church is also donating millions of dollars to Gavi, the Vaccine Alliance (founded by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation), which is very much involved in the the COVID-19 vaccine race. They also donate to W.H.O. and others.

you keep on promoting the church, and following what the leaders say.
Unfortunately, they've become part of the problem when they joined with Babylon.

LDS Freedom Forum

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