Page 5 of 5
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 17th, 2023, 8:23 am
by Thinker
JohnnyL wrote: ↑March 15th, 2023, 1:09 pm
Thinker wrote: ↑March 15th, 2023, 12:31 pm
JohnnyL wrote: ↑March 15th, 2023, 11:25 am
Thinker wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 2:54 pm
True.
To be able to make a positive difference on a big scale requires having an awareness on a big scale, starting with self-awareness.
A classic example:
Lds humanitarian efforts donated tons of clothes to poor areas, thinking they were helping. But that put “poor area” clothing vendors out of business who couldn’t compete with free.
Sometimes I look back at some ignorant ways I acted when I was young, and I cringe because I see more now. On the other hand, we can’t wait until we’re all-knowing to go forward with active faith. But we can humbly be open to learning more before being too cocky in trying to “help” the world.
Yeah, but...
Do you have a reference for the poor area clothing vendors? (If you want to talk about Toms shoes, just say so.)
Will all those people in that poor area buy used donated clothing?
So in that vein, do we stop donating to DI, Salvation Army, Samaritan House, and hundreds of other smaller poor area donated clothing stores?
Do we stop the canned food drives, the Sub for Santa programs, the "Buy a new coat for a kid" programs, because it might hurt Kroeger, Walmart, Toys R Us, and winter clothing stores?
Do we stop donating to every organization?
In a broader stroke: Do we not open a business because if we do, we might put another business out of business?
Obviously just because people screw up in humanitarian “help” doesn’t mean the entire charity effort should be dismissed. Come on, Johnny - you know better than the old “throw the baby out with the bath water” distortion. The lesson is to not be stupid about “helping.”
...
I went to a big lds/church humanitarian project & an older sister missionary who was in charge, told me how even though members feel so good thinking they’re helping, the shipping costs alone - to transport everything - costs several times the amount it would cost if locally bought. Plus, buying locally helps (rather than harms) the local communities.
I still have those questions about where one draws the line with charity.
If it costs several times the amount to ship, why send it there? I would have no good answer for that question.
It really comes down to pride, it seems. People would rather appear (to themselves & others) as doing good than actually ensuring that they do good. And it’s often bound tightly in herd mentalities. Consider lds missions - eg: a young man ignores & mistreats his neighbors but then sets off to preach far away.
The line of charity is different for each situation and each evolving moment. But I think a general guideline is to try to keep juggling 3 greatest commandments:
1) loving & prioritizing God/Truth
2) loving others
3) loving ourselves
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 17th, 2023, 8:26 am
by Reluctant Watchman
Guest wrote: ↑March 16th, 2023, 7:32 pm
two weeks ago I finally accepted that this is the tribulations and that April of 2024 will end the 7 years of tribulations which then brings the end or the final battle.
I honestly don't think we've even started the period of tribulation... but that's me. According to the depictions in the scriptures "we ain't see nothin' yet."
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 17th, 2023, 8:32 am
by mudflap
Thinker wrote: ↑March 17th, 2023, 8:16 am
Leland41-2 wrote: ↑March 16th, 2023, 7:24 pm…I love the story about the situation in Mexico, where an entire stake was excommunicated for "rebellion." The stake went on for 10 years as though nothing had happened, and then was brought back into the church all at once. All the ordinations and ordinances were simply ratified. People naturally worry about priesthood ordinations and keys, but if those things are used to suppress good, they should just be ignored...
Is that a true story?
Any more info?
I think this is what you are looking for:
https://research.cgu.edu/mormonism-migr ... in-mexico/
Look under the section: "The Third Convention".
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 17th, 2023, 8:32 am
by Thinker
Niemand wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 3:36 pm
Thinker wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 2:54 pm
Original_Intent wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 2:35 pm
Thinker wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 2:29 pm
If everyone bettered their tiny corner of the world - the whole world would be better!
JP is kinda famous for talking practically how if you want to change the world, start with cleaning up your room. This 1 min clip talks about how we assume evil is out there somewhere - but it runs through each of us - & it’s best we each deal with our own issues. Then, we’ll be in a better position to deal with more.
[youtube]lbfhAHNNjg0
Definitely multiple levels that can be taken on - which I love.
The first being, if you cleaned your room, you improved the world.
The broader message is that the VAST majority of those wanting to change the world have very messy rooms and are thus not QUALIFIED to take on the bigger job. And I'm sure you get that, just sayin' for those maybe less exposed to JP.
True.
To be able to make a positive difference on a big scale requires having an awareness on a big scale, starting with self-awareness.
A classic example:
Lds humanitarian efforts donated tons of clothes to poor areas, thinking they were helping. But that put “poor area” clothing vendors out of business who couldn’t compete with free.
Sometimes I look back at some ignorant ways I acted when I was young, and I cringe because I see more now. On the other hand, we can’t wait until we’re all-knowing to go forward with active faith. But we can humbly be open to learning more before being too cocky in trying to “help” the world.
This is a serious problem in much of Africa. They have been unable to grow their own clothing industry, that they could use to raise revenue etc, because they keep getting our clothes dumped on them. If they developed their own industry, they would have both a domestic and a foreign market.
Exactly. Like the phrase, “working smart,” loving and serving smart are important.
- “What matters most at the end of life is what is the quality of your love?” -R Bach
They say spirituality is based on empathy, so quality of love may be as well.
A related thought: many addicts, after recovering have acknowledged that being given money when they were struggling with addiction was like a death sentence - they did better without money because they didn’t overdose. Giving money to beggars may be easier, but giving food, or other help is probably often more helpful.
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 17th, 2023, 8:36 am
by Reluctant Watchman
That was a really interesting read, as well as some fascinating insights into the religious dynamics in Mexico. Thanks for finding/sharing that.
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 17th, 2023, 8:44 am
by Thinker
mudflap wrote: ↑March 17th, 2023, 8:32 am
Thinker wrote: ↑March 17th, 2023, 8:16 am
Leland41-2 wrote: ↑March 16th, 2023, 7:24 pm…I love the story about the situation in Mexico, where an entire stake was excommunicated for "rebellion." The stake went on for 10 years as though nothing had happened, and then was brought back into the church all at once. All the ordinations and ordinances were simply ratified. People naturally worry about priesthood ordinations and keys, but if those things are used to suppress good, they should just be ignored...
Is that a true story?
Any more info?
I think this is what you are looking for:
https://research.cgu.edu/mormonism-migr ... in-mexico/
Look under the section: "The Third Convention".
Thanks for the link & directing me where to read. I appreciate it.
Wow. How dare members “confer” at conference!
“… native LDS Church leaders on Mexico’s Central Plateau began holding meetings known as “conventions,” at which the needs of the Mexicans members were discussed and then sent to the First Presidency of the LDS Church by letter.[28] After the second such meeting, in 1932, Mission President Antoine Ivins and Apostle Melvin J. Ballard visited members on the Central Plateau and informed them that their method of effecting change was outside the order of the Church...
… In addition to having an indigenous mission president in Mexico, Conventionists sought the construction of chapels in Mexico, the translation and publication of Church literature in Spanish, and the opportunity for native youth to develop leadership skills by going on full-time missions.[30]
A report of the April 21 convention was sent to Salt Lake City in the form of a petition. In response to this petition, leaders of the Third Convention were in excommunicated in 1937 for “rebellion, apostacy and insubordination. At this juncture, Conventionists split from the mainstream church, renaming themselves The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Third Convention and taking a third of the Church membership in Mexico with them.[32] Despite their separation from the mainstream church, Third Conventionists continued to preach orthodox Mormonism to each other and to their neighbors, baptizing many over a period of ten years.”
I LOVE how these amazing members didn’t let a cultish corporate bureaucracy change how they marched to the beat of what they believed. They just continued - business as usual, not missing a beat!
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 17th, 2023, 8:56 am
by tmac
I suspect the corporate bureaucracy would react much more thuggishly today.
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 17th, 2023, 10:07 am
by mudflap
from freedomcells.org
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 17th, 2023, 10:57 am
by JohnnyL
Thinker wrote: ↑March 17th, 2023, 8:23 am
JohnnyL wrote: ↑March 15th, 2023, 1:09 pm
Thinker wrote: ↑March 15th, 2023, 12:31 pm
Obviously just because people screw up in humanitarian “help” doesn’t mean the entire charity effort should be dismissed. Come on, Johnny - you know better than the old “throw the baby out with the bath water” distortion. The lesson is to not be stupid about “helping.”
...
I went to a big lds/church humanitarian project & an older sister missionary who was in charge, told me how even though members feel so good thinking they’re helping, the shipping costs alone - to transport everything - costs several times the amount it would cost if locally bought. Plus, buying locally helps (rather than harms) the local communities.
I still have those questions about where one draws the line with charity.
If it costs several times the amount to ship, why send it there? I would have no good answer for that question.
It really comes down to pride, it seems. People would rather appear (to themselves & others) as doing good than actually ensuring that they do good. And it’s often bound tightly in herd mentalities. Consider lds missions - eg: a young man ignores & mistreats his neighbors but then sets off to preach far away.
The line of charity is different for each situation and each evolving moment. But I think a general guideline is to try to keep juggling 3 greatest commandments:
1) loving & prioritizing God/Truth
2) loving others
3) loving ourselves
And hopefully comes home with a greater capacity to love and serve his neighbors, and with more love for them.
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 17th, 2023, 11:03 am
by JohnnyL
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 17th, 2023, 10:55 pm
by harakim
GansoTonto wrote: ↑March 14th, 2023, 7:03 am
As it stands, America is dead, and has been for some time now. Everything we have been seeing now is just the rotting of the corpse. I see no hope for my children to live in a land or community with even a shadow of good old fashion morality, liberty, and similar American/Christian ideals. I can't stand it and am always in a solemn mind because of it.
I am myself no clean vessel for the Lord, I have not his Spirit within me though I pray for this heavenly gift often. Nevertheless, I cannot stand idly by and watch my god and my country be trampled under foot unimpeded and myself feel any peace. But what is there to do? Can one uninspired, broken, unclean vessel effectuate any lasting change for the good?
It seems like most people here and elsewhere fall into one of these groups:
- There is nothing we can do, God will take care of it.
- There is nothing meaningful we can do, God will send his servant(s) to take care of it.
- There are things that can be done, but nobody else cares enough to make any meaningful change for the better.
- The only thing anyone can do is make sure they themselves are saved( and watch on the sidelines as the rest of the world digs themself into a pit).
- Any combination or variation of the above paradigms which all inevitably bear fruit of complacency, vanity, hopelessness, self-righteousness, and/or embitterment towards your fellowmen.
I want to do things to help heal America and I have lots of ideas that I think are actionable. There are only one or two more little wrinkles that I am currently ironing out before I can get to work on it. But before I waste the better part of the rest of my life on a wild goose, what say you?
Am I wasting my time? Have you all given up on America and what it stood for? Do you really all think that after we throw away the foundation America was founded on that God will swoop in with a ready-made replacement for us all? In what state will the master find His house when He comes? In what work will He find His servants? Has anyone here read the Odyssey?
With a heart full of hope I make this thread. May it find you all well.
There is a lot of good information in this thread. Make sure to separate the action from the outcome. Do the right thing, make the world you want, even if it doesn't benefit you personally.
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 18th, 2023, 12:03 am
by Fred
Ben has some advice...
Committees of Safety...
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 18th, 2023, 2:22 am
by lundbaek
My effort is doing what I can toward preserving this nation for the next generation, and helping to prepare a people to restore the American government to its proper role of protecting our God-given and inalienable rights. This includes:
1.) making Latter-day Saints aware of their divinely mandated responsibilities to study, uphold and abide by the principles of the US Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers, and to understand the proper role of government according to gospel principles. This involves promoting awareness of what I believe is a doctrinal imperative or divine mandate to learn and abide by the principles of the US Constitution as He who established it intends it to be understood.
2.) trying to learn the inspired principles of the U.S. Constitution, and persuade others to do same.
3.) making people aware of the conspiracy to overthrow the freedoms of all lands, nations, and countries including gaining control over and making a shambles of America and destroying what is left of our constitutional republic government and turning our nation into a highly centralized socialist state,
4.) convincing people that the fomenting of illegal immigration is part of that conspiracy.
5.) helping to expose the election fraud, some of which I discovered for myself
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 20th, 2023, 5:49 am
by Momma J
Leland41-2 wrote: ↑March 16th, 2023, 7:24 pm
If we could redirect $20 billion a year from totally wasted/counterproductive tithing into doing good to improve our society, instead of helping destroy it, we could actually do about $40 billion worth of good every year. And if we had some good programs going, many others would throw in with us and increase the size of that number.
Mine is but a mere pittance. A drop in the bucket. But my tithes have been redirected to help those in my area who are struggling.
Last week my husband half-hearted joked, "Who is going to help us when we have given more that we can afford?"
Simple answer, "The Lord."
Our finances have been hurting lately with the rising cost of groceries and one of my husband's medications being dropped from our insurance. We were trying to refigure our budget... cutting back on heating the house and all excess spendings so that I can continue to fulfill my covenant with the Lord.
We were reminded of just how blessed we are when our utility bills were all pretty much cut in half, allowing us to purchase the meds and buy extra groceries.
We are also being blessed with one of the most beautiful vegetable gardens that I have ever been able to plant!
One can only imaging the blessings that the church could gather if they were to reappropriate the tithing funds to feed the poor and house the homeless.
Dad taught me early that a full belly is more open to conversations.
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 20th, 2023, 6:03 am
by tmac
Really good point — which coincides with the old Chinese proverb: Lots of food, lots of problems; No food, one problem.
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 20th, 2023, 6:08 am
by Niemand
tmac wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 6:03 am
Really good point — which coincides with the old Chinese proverb: Lots of food, lots of problems; No food, one problem.
Or the western saying that an army marches on its stomach. (I've been reminded of this by army cooks, who are often mocked for not being combatants but who would also point out that they are an integral part of any military operation!)
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 20th, 2023, 6:11 am
by Christianlee
The Church owns 1/6 of the private land in Florida. It will soon have five temples there. Florida’s government is more in line with our values than Utah’s is. It really seems to me to be one of the few bastions of liberty left though Missouri and Iowa aren’t bad either. So it is possible to choose your gathering place. And then you will still have to get involved and make it better. No reason to sit on our hands.
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 20th, 2023, 6:18 am
by Niemand
Christianlee wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 6:11 am
The Church owns 1/6 of the private land in Florida. It will soon have five temples there. Florida’s government is more in line with our values than Utah’s is. It really seems to me to be one of the few bastions of liberty left though Missouri and Iowa aren’t bad either. So it is possible to choose your gathering place. And then you will still have to get involved and make it better. No reason to sit on our hands.
Florida does not strike me as a safe place at all in environmental terms. A lot of it is near sea level and it is frequently hit by hurricanes. It is also directly in line of several possible megatsunami (the Canaries, Caribbean Islands, Cape Verde.)
I have relatives in Florida and obviously I wish them well, but it is not where I would want to live for those reasons. Maybe if one needed to flee into the Everglades then that might be a possibility but that would be an extremely hostile environment.
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 20th, 2023, 6:22 am
by Christianlee
Niemand wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 6:18 am
Christianlee wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 6:11 am
The Church owns 1/6 of the private land in Florida. It will soon have five temples there. Florida’s government is more in line with our values than Utah’s is. It really seems to me to be one of the few bastions of liberty left though Missouri and Iowa aren’t bad either. So it is possible to choose your gathering place. And then you will still have to get involved and make it better. No reason to sit on our hands.
Florida does not strike me as a safe place at all in environmental terms. A lot of it is near sea level and it is frequently hit by hurricanes. It is also directly in line of several possible megatsunami (the Canaries, Caribbean Islands, Cape Verde.)
I have relatives in Florida and obviously I wish them well, but it is not where I would want to live for those reasons. Maybe if one needed to flee into the Everglades then that might be a possibility but that would be an extremely hostile environment.
In that case Iowa and Missouri fit.
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 20th, 2023, 7:17 am
by Reluctant Watchman
Christianlee wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 6:11 am
The Church owns 1/6 of the private land in Florida. It will soon have five temples there. Florida’s government is more in line with our values than Utah’s is. It really seems to me to be one of the few bastions of liberty left though Missouri and Iowa aren’t bad either. So it is possible to choose your gathering place. And then you will still have to get involved and make it better. No reason to sit on our hands.
Having a “fine sanctuary” nearby is not a good thing IMO. When things do get crazy, the last place I want to be is around a bunch of LDS people who are TBMs. The pinnacle theology is “follow the prophet”, which in turns means follow the NWO.
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 20th, 2023, 7:19 am
by Reluctant Watchman
Niemand wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 6:18 am
Christianlee wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 6:11 am
The Church owns 1/6 of the private land in Florida. It will soon have five temples there. Florida’s government is more in line with our values than Utah’s is. It really seems to me to be one of the few bastions of liberty left though Missouri and Iowa aren’t bad either. So it is possible to choose your gathering place. And then you will still have to get involved and make it better. No reason to sit on our hands.
Florida does not strike me as a safe place at all in environmental terms. A lot of it is near sea level and it is frequently hit by hurricanes. It is also directly in line of several possible megatsunami (the Canaries, Caribbean Islands, Cape Verde.)
I have relatives in Florida and obviously I wish them well, but it is not where I would want to live for those reasons. Maybe if one needed to flee into the Everglades then that might be a possibility but that would be an extremely hostile environment.
I seem to recall scripture about the seas heaving beyond their bounds. Most of Florida will most likely have a front row seat.
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 20th, 2023, 8:15 am
by Christianlee
Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 7:17 am
Christianlee wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 6:11 am
The Church owns 1/6 of the private land in Florida. It will soon have five temples there. Florida’s government is more in line with our values than Utah’s is. It really seems to me to be one of the few bastions of liberty left though Missouri and Iowa aren’t bad either. So it is possible to choose your gathering place. And then you will still have to get involved and make it better. No reason to sit on our hands.
Having a “fine sanctuary” nearby is not a good thing IMO. When things do get crazy, the last place I want to be is around a bunch of LDS people who are TBMs. The pinnacle theology is “follow the prophet”, which in turns means follow the NWO.
You have a point, but the types of LDS who would move to Missouri might not be follow the prophet types. Look at a small town like Cameron, Missouri with three wards and around 10,000 people. Imagine what could be accomplished there if 5,000 retirees sold their homes in Utah and built homes around that town over a few years. Maybe 5,000 people like us.
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 20th, 2023, 8:21 am
by Reluctant Watchman
Christianlee wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 8:15 am
You have a point, but the types of LDS who would move to Missouri might not be follow the prophet types. Look at a small town like Cameron, Missouri with three wards and around 10,000 people. Imagine what could be accomplished there if 5,000 retirees sold their homes in Utah and built homes around that town over a few years. Maybe 5,000 people like us.
This new breed of LDS would have to be quite special. They’d essentially have to reject the mainstream LDS theology. I can always hope… but these current LDS theologies that rub me the wrong way go far beyond “follow the prophet.” I’m talking about a compete restructuring of the faith. I’m not sure how many LDS TBMs would be up for that.
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 20th, 2023, 8:36 am
by Christianlee
Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 8:21 am
Christianlee wrote: ↑March 20th, 2023, 8:15 am
You have a point, but the types of LDS who would move to Missouri might not be follow the prophet types. Look at a small town like Cameron, Missouri with three wards and around 10,000 people. Imagine what could be accomplished there if 5,000 retirees sold their homes in Utah and built homes around that town over a few years. Maybe 5,000 people like us.
This new breed of LDS would have to be quite special. They’d essentially have to reject the mainstream LDS theology. I can always hope… but these current LDS theologies that rub me the wrong way go far beyond “follow the prophet.” I’m talking about a compete restructuring of the faith. I’m not sure how many LDS TBMs would be up for that.
Seriously, only LDS who are true believers in the revelations to Joseph Smith would be up to the task. Most TBMs are only social Mormons who are comfortable in their apathy. There is no pioneering spirit left in them if it means sacrifice. The people on this forum might be up to it. I have heard TBMs call the LDS in Missouri “crazy”. If the LDS Church believed in the Doctrine and Covenants it would already be encouraging people to move there. And don’t give me that song and dance about Missouri will be burned over. Those thoughts came from early Mormon pioneers who were understandably bitter about the treatment they received in that state. I’d move there if my TBM spouse didn’t stand in the way. I’m stuck in Amish country but that’s pretty close to the kind of society we might try to imitate.
Re: Is there nothing we can do?
Posted: March 23rd, 2023, 5:03 pm
by JohnnyL
"Tell Congress to close the purse on weaponizing health data through the CDC and the WHO!"
(and much, much, much more):
https://standforhealthfreedom.com/blog/close-purse/
Easy action plans at the bottom of the page.
