What does it take to be the Lord's anointed?

[John Tavner]

yes, now contemplating this , it does become an interesting topic.

off the cuff, barring any sort of official definition, my mind goes to this:

Someone that is anointed has reached a level that can never be undone. A sort of benchmark which was likely attained from a previous existence in most cases. This level cannot be 'granted' but it is a level attained through personal spiritual growth.

Sorry to go to the 'previous existence' idea, but I have found so very very few men in my life that change much during the course of their life. From observation, we typically are who we are for our lives, perhaps growing , in some cases , a few grades at most in a lifetime. Kindergarten-> PHD.

ie, Self-deceiving liars in their youth, invariably continue that pattern although, in adulthood, they create a good mask to wear in order to achieve their desires.

Alma 42
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

God has agency too.

I perceive that an anointing is not relative to forgiveness per se. My view is that an anointing occurs after having gone through enough experiences, while making the 'right' choices, which refines the individual to a certain state of being. Like doing a work out program for many years and the body is in top condition.

As far as mercy robbing justice, that all depends on one's concept of sin. Consider a courtroom in the U.S. where a man is being tried for a crime. As the trial proceeds , it is discovered that the man on trial is actually not a citizen of the U.S. and in his case, the law cannot apply to him and he is then deported to his country of origin. When he returns home, the judicial system awards him full freedom because no such law exists in that country for him to be found guilty of. He is exonerated of all charges.

The courtroom is the earth . The judge on earth is the God of this world.
His country of origin is where Christ resides.

just something to consider.

Good thoughts.. interesting thoughts. I like how you are truly perceiving yourself as a sojourner in this world and a citizen in the Kingdom of God and not one of teh flesh.
James 2:13 For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

[FrankOne]

Alma 42
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

God has agency too.

I perceive that an anointing is not relative to forgiveness per se. My view is that an anointing occurs after having gone through enough experiences, while making the 'right' choices, which refines the individual to a certain state of being. Like doing a work out program for many years and the body is in top condition.

As far as mercy robbing justice, that all depends on one's concept of sin. Consider a courtroom in the U.S. where a man is being tried for a crime. As the trial proceeds , it is discovered that the man on trial is actually not a citizen of the U.S. and in his case, the law cannot apply to him and he is then deported to his country of origin. When he returns home, the judicial system awards him full freedom because no such law exists in that country for him to be found guilty of. He is exonerated of all charges.

The courtroom is the earth . The judge on earth is the God of this world.
His country of origin is where Christ resides.

just something to consider.

Good thoughts.. interesting thoughts. I like how you are truly perceiving yourself as a sojourner in this world and a citizen in the Kingdom of God and not one of teh flesh.
James 2:13 For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

I very much appreciate your response. More than I can express in words.

My perspective is that we are all perfect children from a perfect creator which now reside in an 'altered' condition which is polarized into many varying degrees of good and evil. A learning condition which has no bearing on our perfect state. Our perfection cannot be changed, but our belief in our condition can vary from the truth of what and who we are. Some say that this place is a prison, but a prison isn't entered into by choice. Choice started this and choice will end it through Christ.

As you pointed out, there are many scriptures which specifically detail how love and forgiveness solves this entire situation. The work is to let go of what we are currently fastened to and accept forgiveness. It is much more difficult to let go of the idea of condemnation than it is to condemn.

I can attest to the fact that we are all perfect, immortal children of a perfect Creator that knows no condemnation...and never has.

[ransomme]

It isn't a releuctance it is a focus. If I don't believe who Jesus is now and what He did, it doesn't matter where I came from or where I can go. We don't believe.. or shouldn't believe in Jesus to "just" get to heaven. THe purpose is to become like Him- to manifest the love of God in the flesh to others. God made us with intent. Jesus Christ is the manifestation of that intent in the flesh- He is the Perfect image of hte invisible God, whose image we are to grow into. It is trust in the here and now. Too many people "Know" where they are going before this life and after- few of them understand NOW is what is essential. If we don't fully grasp that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, then all that knowledge means nothing. IF we do not BECOME through faith and grace, then it means nothing. - If we do not udnersatnd the love that God has for us, then we can not love God. "We love because He loved us first." What I'm saying is we spend way too much time focusing on the past and way too much on the future and too little on submitting and yielding to God daily and becoming through His grace and the SPirit that dwells in us. We struggle with our beliefs... any trial seems to derail us- Christ should define us more than a life in the flesh, but too often He is not our Life, it is our circumstances. I'm saying if we can't grasp the milk, the extra stuff won't help you- we have to Build on teh foundation of CHrist, not on the foundation of where we came from and where we are going.

Sure, but they aren't exclusive. They add to one another, glory, to glory. We are supposed to take notice of the things that God has done for us. Glory to God.

As it is written, "...remember how great things the Lord had done for [us]...".
"...remember the Lord your God in the things with which he hath blessed you...".
"...walk humbly before the Lord, and did remember how great things the Lord had done for his father, and also taught his people how great things the Lord had done for their fathers."
"...remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts."

The more I know about what God had done and will do, the deeper and more rich my songs of praise become. And the brighter my hope becomes.

I agree with this, but to remember we have to know and understand who He is here and now. first. When you see Him for who He is, then we can grow in faith. If you don't believe He is merciful, then you can't remember His mercy.

Do you really know someone if you don't know what they have done? If we don't see what God has done, that He lives up to His oaths (fulfills covenants) then we would be missing important.

Are you resisting this on purpose? I don't I honestly don't understand your pushback on these things. Go right ahead and resist something is false, but to fight against knowing truth saying it's just not that important?

[ransomme]

yes, now contemplating this , it does become an interesting topic.

off the cuff, barring any sort of official definition, my mind goes to this:

Someone that is anointed has reached a level that can never be undone. A sort of benchmark which was likely attained from a previous existence in most cases. This level cannot be 'granted' but it is a level attained through personal spiritual growth.

Sorry to go to the 'previous existence' idea, but I have found so very very few men in my life that change much during the course of their life. From observation, we typically are who we are for our lives, perhaps growing , in some cases , a few grades at most in a lifetime. Kindergarten-> PHD.

ie, Self-deceiving liars in their youth, invariably continue that pattern although, in adulthood, they create a good mask to wear in order to achieve their desires.

Alma 42
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

God has agency too.

I perceive that an anointing is not relative to forgiveness per se. My view is that an anointing occurs after having gone through enough experiences, while making the 'right' choices, which refines the individual to a certain state of being. Like doing a work out program for many years and the body is in top condition.

As far as mercy robbing justice, that all depends on one's concept of sin. Consider a courtroom in the U.S. where a man is being tried for a crime. As the trial proceeds , it is discovered that the man on trial is actually not a citizen of the U.S. and in his case, the law cannot apply to him and he is then deported to his country of origin. When he returns home, the judicial system awards him full freedom because no such law exists in that country for him to be found guilty of. He is exonerated of all charges.

The courtroom is the earth . The judge on earth is the God of this world.
His country of origin is where Christ resides.

just something to consider.

this is a fallen world. The god of this world is Satan, and he does not sit in judgment. We seek the God of creation.

The point in sharing that scripture was not about justice or mercy. The bearing it has on the conversation relates to God being able to fall. Even God has agency and could cease to be God if He chose to sin. I brought this up because once one's calling and election is made sure they may still fall.

Finally, you describe the process of obtaining one's calling and election made sure, but once there, there is an event. For example, in order to be baptized by water and spirit (events) one must first go through the processes of faith unto repentance (2 Nephi 31:13 ...with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism (with water)...) and sacrificing a broken heart and contrite spirit (3 N 9:20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost). Does that help to see that there is a process to get to an event? And that to have one's C&E made sure is an event?

[John Tavner]

Sure, but they aren't exclusive. They add to one another, glory, to glory. We are supposed to take notice of the things that God has done for us. Glory to God.

As it is written, "...remember how great things the Lord had done for [us]...".
"...remember the Lord your God in the things with which he hath blessed you...".
"...walk humbly before the Lord, and did remember how great things the Lord had done for his father, and also taught his people how great things the Lord had done for their fathers."
"...remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts."

The more I know about what God had done and will do, the deeper and more rich my songs of praise become. And the brighter my hope becomes.

I agree with this, but to remember we have to know and understand who He is here and now. first. When you see Him for who He is, then we can grow in faith. If you don't believe He is merciful, then you can't remember His mercy.

Do you really know someone if you don't know what they have done? If we don't see what God has done, that He lives up to His oaths (fulfills covenants) then we would be missing important.

Are you resisting this on purpose? I don't I honestly don't understand your pushback on these things. Go right ahead and resist something is false, but to fight against knowing truth saying it's just not that important?

Not resistance, a proper perspective for despite God sending messages to prophets the full and entire understanding of who God was was not fully understood until Christ. IT is WHY He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Heb 1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son,a whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.b

3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

If we don't understand that, the rest is not seen with a proper perspective. We will have a twisted view of things. It's why John stated "in teh Beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was made flesh etc... Jesus IS the word living in the Flesh. We are to follow that example, that path because He IS the EXACT representation of God's nature. It's why John said "no man hath seen God" because no one fully grasped His nature and what His plan for us was until Christ came. Paul says that is the mystery of the ages that was not revealed until Christ came that is "CHrist in you the Hope of Glory" We ourselves are to become the Word living in the flesh- not just paying homage to God but having Him live inside of us, manifest through us, We are to be the BODY of Christ.

If something is built but the foundation is shaky, it will fall. Establish a strong foundation, then it will stand.

[ransomme]

I agree with this, but to remember we have to know and understand who He is here and now. first. When you see Him for who He is, then we can grow in faith. If you don't believe He is merciful, then you can't remember His mercy.

Do you really know someone if you don't know what they have done? If we don't see what God has done, that He lives up to His oaths (fulfills covenants) then we would be missing important.

Are you resisting this on purpose? I don't I honestly don't understand your pushback on these things. Go right ahead and resist something is false, but to fight against knowing truth saying it's just not that important?

Not resistance, a proper perspective for despite God sending messages to prophets the full and entire understanding of who God was was not fully understood until Christ. IT is WHY He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Heb 1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son,a whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.b

3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

If we don't understand that, the rest is not seen with a proper perspective. We will have a twisted view of things. It's why John stated "in teh Beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was made flesh etc... Jesus IS the word living in the Flesh. We are to follow that example, that path because He IS the EXACT representation of God's nature. It's why John said "no man hath seen God" because no one fully grasped His nature and what His plan for us was until Christ came. Paul says that is the mystery of the ages that was not revealed until Christ came that is "CHrist in you the Hope of Glory" We ourselves are to become the Word living in the flesh- not just paying homage to God but having Him live inside of us, manifest through us, We are to be the BODY of Christ.

If something is built but the foundation is shaky, it will fall. Establish a strong foundation, then it will stand.

Going back to where this started, you dismiss the value of knowing things like God being the Father of our Spirits and knowledge of things to come. It's fine that you won't answer, I will accept that. No further need to make statements about things that you unjustifiably think that we don't get or understand. No need to strawman, and argue against things no one ever said, and positions no one ever took.

I think your last post was a complete non-sequitur. What's more, it restated things that I already said. I am glad that we agree on something at least.

Christ is the ultimate messenger, the Word (perfect embodiment/example of following God's counsel, full of His authority, bearer of His name, etc) of God. We are to receive the Spirit so we can become messengers, and speak with the tongue of angels, and be an extension of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Messiah as His epistles.

[ransomme]

We all have been slave to sin. Our value is reduced to sin. When we are redeemed we are in the Garden as if we had never sinned. In the past that word has been used to "redeem" or restore to proper value. If you are freed, you are no longer a slave. You did not start out as a slave. You are returned to original value. If you are rescued you are restored to safety. etc- it isn't about hte "definition" but the intent.

1 Cor 6 - I'm aware what it says, intent is important -look at what Luke just did misinterpreting what I said ( and this isn't a condemnation of what he did, I"m just using it as an example). God does not want slaves. IT isn't in His character. He came to set people free, not to "enslave them again." We serve Him because we love him, not because we are slaves or "we aren't our own". If you are doing it because you see yourself as a slave you will never grow up into the full stature of Christ as God intends to manifest His love to all flesh. He is saying "deny yourself" stop "being self-focused" don't lose sight of what Jesus called you to be and what He says about you. THe Spirit is what transforms you if you let it. Live in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

I didin't listen to the video so I will just say we will agree to disagree. What i do know is scripture says We are to conform ourselves to the IMage of the Son, who is the perfect image of the Father.

This all goes to my point. If we have a wrong image of God, we will read scriptures with hte wrong intent - we read words of others with the wrong intent (if we have the wrong image of them).

The words redeem/redemption have profound meaning. They are specifically used for our instruction. Not just in their express usage, but also in stories and patterns. For example the 30 pieces of silver that Judas Iscariot received for selling out Jesus.

Jesus, "6 who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature.
8 He humbled himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death - even death on a cross!"

Jesus died for the price of a slave on the cross! The price of a slave is what was paid for His innocent blood! The very blood by which he purchased all those who covenant, ally with Him

Brother there are much deeper and more beautiful truths woven throughout a unified story in the scriptures. They are used to foreshadow and show patterns so that we are not deceived. And to reward seekers.

And we are slaves / servants of Jesus. But He is a just Master and He is guiding us to our freedom. Lean more about
biblical slavery.

Was Jesus a slave though? Despite the fact that we was bought with a slaves price? Though thinking about it it adds to the idea that "He who knew no sin became sin" we were chained/slaves to sin, couldn't escape, He became sin, was placed on a pole as sin, so the world could see God was cursing sin in the flesh so we might be free. Then He was resurrected. We in turn die in His likeness and are "born again" or resurrected as new creations. That said, Whose name do we bear/ are we supposed to bear? We are only slaves if we live our lives like the Law requires (in that we do only and don't become). Grace is what sets us free and makes us Sons. You are right, there is a pattern. Don't get trapped into thinking the Old Testament was God's intention for us- it, the law and its application was what happened when they rejected Him. The New Covenant is God's demonstration of what He desires in us, it is Righteousness for us through His Son becoming like the Son.

No. I am sorry that the precepts of men so easily beset believers. In the New Testament, the Greek word for slave (“δοῦλος” - “doulos”) some 150 times, although it only is translated as "slave" a few times. The word servant is just a kinder, gentler, more woke way to say, slave. I think in the NT there are ~6 Greek words that mean servant, but "doulos" is not one of them. If you don't like it, it still doesn't mean that it is not true.

"Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ..." - 2 Peter 1:1
"James (the half-brother of Jesus), a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ..." - James 1:1
"Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle..." - Romans 1:1
I am sensing a pattern here...
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His slaves the things which must soon happen; and He indicated this by sending it through His angel to His slave John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the witness of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it, for the time is near." - Revelation 1:1-3

"...as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart..." - Ephesians 6:5-6
"...‘Sir, you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ His master answered, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You have been faithful in a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’..." - Matthew 25:20-21
"...“Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the slaves of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those having been sealed, 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:" - Revelation 7:3-4

And to bring it home:
"But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching to which you were given over, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness...But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit, leading to sanctification, and the end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:17-18,22-23

Indeed, we are slaves to our loving Master and Lord Jesus Christ, who laid down His life for us in order to redeem/buy us from the bondage of sin.

[John Tavner]

Do you really know someone if you don't know what they have done? If we don't see what God has done, that He lives up to His oaths (fulfills covenants) then we would be missing important.

Are you resisting this on purpose? I don't I honestly don't understand your pushback on these things. Go right ahead and resist something is false, but to fight against knowing truth saying it's just not that important?

Not resistance, a proper perspective for despite God sending messages to prophets the full and entire understanding of who God was was not fully understood until Christ. IT is WHY He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Heb 1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son,a whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.b

3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

If we don't understand that, the rest is not seen with a proper perspective. We will have a twisted view of things. It's why John stated "in teh Beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was made flesh etc... Jesus IS the word living in the Flesh. We are to follow that example, that path because He IS the EXACT representation of God's nature. It's why John said "no man hath seen God" because no one fully grasped His nature and what His plan for us was until Christ came. Paul says that is the mystery of the ages that was not revealed until Christ came that is "CHrist in you the Hope of Glory" We ourselves are to become the Word living in the flesh- not just paying homage to God but having Him live inside of us, manifest through us, We are to be the BODY of Christ.

If something is built but the foundation is shaky, it will fall. Establish a strong foundation, then it will stand.

Going back to where this started, you dismiss the value of knowing things like God being the Father of our Spirits and knowledge of things to come. It's fine that you won't answer, I will accept that. No further need to make statements about things that you unjustifiably think that we don't get or understand. No need to strawman, and argue against things no one ever said, and positions no one ever took.

I think your last post was a complete non-sequitur. What's more, it restated things that I already said. I am glad that we agree on something at least.

Christ is the ultimate messenger, the Word (perfect embodiment/example of following God's counsel, full of His authority, bearer of His name, etc) of God. We are to receive the Spirit so we can become messengers, and speak with the tongue of angels, and be an extension of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Messiah as His epistles.

Kind of a bit of misunderstanding. My contention is Not that it isn't important that God is the Father of our Spirits- that is shown in Christ - in Him and His message- He encapsulates that. What i don't think is necessary is knowing about a pre-mortal existence needing to know that I lived with Him before this life- can it help, sure, with the right perspective based entirely on the udnerstanding of WHO the Father is. Jesus said My Father and Your Father (one who brings forth you life). Christ teaches I came forth from Him- just like Christ - Christ is that message- we are to be the embodiment of that message We come forth as Him as Christ is - What Christ Is, we are to be, but Unless I know Who Christ is and Know He is love and realize my entire purpose in life is to BECOME, that knowledge means nothing and until I realize I can't BECOME until I deny myself and yield to God to manifest Christ through me it is just religion. God wants relation, not religion. Christ is the manifestation of that relationship. I'm against "doing" things. More or less we can state the same thing, but most Mormons or mormonism in general places a large emphasis on "doing" to in order to "get to the goal" so to say. If I Know that I come from the Father, and I reject Christ, and the submission and yielding and becoming, I am missing the point- if I believe Christ, I will know that I come from teh Father from two ways 1) Jesus in prayer and 2) from the very fact that He says I am adopted into Him. The purpose isn't to receive the Spirit, the Spirit comes as we receive Christ- becauas ewe have the Spirit we can become messengers. I'm extremely nit picky with this because of movements I've seen where people are begging God to give them the Spirit and always thinking they ahve to "do" xyz to receive it. When they believe CHrist, they will receive the Spirit- It all begins and ends with Him.

You can feel it is a straw man or non-sequitor. THere is a purpose to what I'm saying.

[Shawn Henry]

I think in the NT there are ~6 Greek words that mean servant, but "doulos" is not one of them.

If that's the case, I would definitely question the Greek translation. In any case, we have the BoM and the D&C in English, so we know the word servant is used. We also know that Jesus came to set us free and that the Law of Agency would prohibit slavery. I do acknowledge, however, that the words can be highly synonymous at times.

[John Tavner]

The words redeem/redemption have profound meaning. They are specifically used for our instruction. Not just in their express usage, but also in stories and patterns. For example the 30 pieces of silver that Judas Iscariot received for selling out Jesus.

Jesus, "6 who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature.
8 He humbled himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death - even death on a cross!"

Jesus died for the price of a slave on the cross! The price of a slave is what was paid for His innocent blood! The very blood by which he purchased all those who covenant, ally with Him

Brother there are much deeper and more beautiful truths woven throughout a unified story in the scriptures. They are used to foreshadow and show patterns so that we are not deceived. And to reward seekers.

And we are slaves / servants of Jesus. But He is a just Master and He is guiding us to our freedom. Lean more about
biblical slavery.

Was Jesus a slave though? Despite the fact that we was bought with a slaves price? Though thinking about it it adds to the idea that "He who knew no sin became sin" we were chained/slaves to sin, couldn't escape, He became sin, was placed on a pole as sin, so the world could see God was cursing sin in the flesh so we might be free. Then He was resurrected. We in turn die in His likeness and are "born again" or resurrected as new creations. That said, Whose name do we bear/ are we supposed to bear? We are only slaves if we live our lives like the Law requires (in that we do only and don't become). Grace is what sets us free and makes us Sons. You are right, there is a pattern. Don't get trapped into thinking the Old Testament was God's intention for us- it, the law and its application was what happened when they rejected Him. The New Covenant is God's demonstration of what He desires in us, it is Righteousness for us through His Son becoming like the Son.

No. I am sorry that the precepts of men so easily beset believers. In the New Testament, the Greek word for slave (“δοῦλος” - “doulos”) some 150 times, although it only is translated as "slave" a few times. The word servant is just a kinder, gentler, more woke way to say, slave. I think in the NT there are ~6 Greek words that mean servant, but "doulos" is not one of them. If you don't like it, it still doesn't mean that it is not true.

"Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ..." - 2 Peter 1:1
"James (the half-brother of Jesus), a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ..." - James 1:1
"Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle..." - Romans 1:1
I am sensing a pattern here...
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His slaves the things which must soon happen; and He indicated this by sending it through His angel to His slave John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the witness of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it, for the time is near." - Revelation 1:1-3

"...as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart..." - Ephesians 6:5-6
"...‘Sir, you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ His master answered, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You have been faithful in a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’..." - Matthew 25:20-21
"...“Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the slaves of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those having been sealed, 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:" - Revelation 7:3-4

And to bring it home:
"But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching to which you were given over, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness...But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit, leading to sanctification, and the end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:17-18,22-23

Indeed, we are slaves to our loving Master and Lord Jesus Christ, who laid down His life for us in order to redeem/buy us from the bondage of sin.

You didn't answer my question. If you want to get into the wording it is actually bond-servant/slave - a bond servant is one that has been freed, but can choose to serve their master. Was Jesus a Slave? If He was a slave it was in the sense that His entire will was God's... because HE was love and GOd is love, not because God "FORCED" Him to do things against His will. Do we bear His name? A Son chooses to serve His Father. Don't get caught up in you reducing the identity that Christ came to set you free from. "The truth will set you free" Not the "truth will set you to be my slave" He doesn't need or want you to be a "slave" He wants your entire heart, your life, but for you to give it willingly, not forced, not to be just a servant, but to be a Son. He purchased us to set us free if we believe, the purchase is not a "you are now forced to serve me" This is what I mean when I say and i will be bold here, when we have a twisted perspective of who God is - we read things into it and get it wrong. It is WILLINGLY giving up who we think we are and WILLINGLY becoming who He says He is. THere is NO FORCE, only love. Don't get caught up in the words and miss the intent. If you want to live as a slave and view yourself as one, that is your prerogative, but God says you are a Son, and He willingly wants you. Your choice to live life as a Son who willingly gives His life to God or a Slave who is forced to do so, never feeling like you quite measure up.

Edit: I think the Story of the Prodigal Son is a good example of this teaching/understanding, for the most part.

[FrankOne]

Alma 42
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

God has agency too.

I perceive that an anointing is not relative to forgiveness per se. My view is that an anointing occurs after having gone through enough experiences, while making the 'right' choices, which refines the individual to a certain state of being. Like doing a work out program for many years and the body is in top condition.

As far as mercy robbing justice, that all depends on one's concept of sin. Consider a courtroom in the U.S. where a man is being tried for a crime. As the trial proceeds , it is discovered that the man on trial is actually not a citizen of the U.S. and in his case, the law cannot apply to him and he is then deported to his country of origin. When he returns home, the judicial system awards him full freedom because no such law exists in that country for him to be found guilty of. He is exonerated of all charges.

The courtroom is the earth . The judge on earth is the God of this world.
His country of origin is where Christ resides.

just something to consider.

Does that help to see that there is a process to get to an event? And that to have one's C&E made sure is an event?

I perceive that the event of which you speak is a physical change that is irreversible. A change of nature that is incomprehensible to us right now. To go from the natural man back to what we were in 'pre-fall' position. As the fall itself enabled men to separate themselves from the Creator, the restoration event reverses that.

that being said, it is likely that there are many different types of 'events'. Some being stages where power is granted such as the use of the entire physical brain. Much has been written on the subject of what a man could accomplish with full use of the cerebrum.

there is more mystery than there are knowns. One concept that gives me peace is to believe that I am as my Father created me even though I am currently unable to remember it to the point of reversal. When we fully remember, this is over. All of it. When we wake up, we are no longer 'here'. The dream ends.

[ransomme]

I think in the NT there are ~6 Greek words that mean servant, but "doulos" is not one of them.

If that's the case, I would definitely question the Greek translation. In any case, we have the BoM and the D&C in English, so we know the word servant is used. We also know that Jesus came to set us free and that the Law of Agency would prohibit slavery. I do acknowledge, however, that the words can be highly synonymous at times.

The original was Greek, no translation. They wrote in Greek.

Besides it's in the stories and the patterns and in the titles that our Master, Lord and Savior Jesus uses.

[ransomme]

Was Jesus a slave though? Despite the fact that we was bought with a slaves price? Though thinking about it it adds to the idea that "He who knew no sin became sin" we were chained/slaves to sin, couldn't escape, He became sin, was placed on a pole as sin, so the world could see God was cursing sin in the flesh so we might be free. Then He was resurrected. We in turn die in His likeness and are "born again" or resurrected as new creations. That said, Whose name do we bear/ are we supposed to bear? We are only slaves if we live our lives like the Law requires (in that we do only and don't become). Grace is what sets us free and makes us Sons. You are right, there is a pattern. Don't get trapped into thinking the Old Testament was God's intention for us- it, the law and its application was what happened when they rejected Him. The New Covenant is God's demonstration of what He desires in us, it is Righteousness for us through His Son becoming like the Son.

No. I am sorry that the precepts of men so easily beset believers. In the New Testament, the Greek word for slave (“δοῦλος” - “doulos”) some 150 times, although it only is translated as "slave" a few times. The word servant is just a kinder, gentler, more woke way to say, slave. I think in the NT there are ~6 Greek words that mean servant, but "doulos" is not one of them. If you don't like it, it still doesn't mean that it is not true.

"Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ..." - 2 Peter 1:1
"James (the half-brother of Jesus), a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ..." - James 1:1
"Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle..." - Romans 1:1
I am sensing a pattern here...
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His slaves the things which must soon happen; and He indicated this by sending it through His angel to His slave John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the witness of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it, for the time is near." - Revelation 1:1-3

"...as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart..." - Ephesians 6:5-6
"...‘Sir, you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ His master answered, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You have been faithful in a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’..." - Matthew 25:20-21
"...“Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the slaves of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those having been sealed, 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:" - Revelation 7:3-4

And to bring it home:
"But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching to which you were given over, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness...But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit, leading to sanctification, and the end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:17-18,22-23

Indeed, we are slaves to our loving Master and Lord Jesus Christ, who laid down His life for us in order to redeem/buy us from the bondage of sin.

You didn't answer my question. If you want to get into the wording it is actually bond-servant/slave - a bond servant is one that has been freed, but can choose to serve their master. Was Jesus a Slave? If He was a slave it was in the sense that His entire will was God's... because HE was love and GOd is love, not because God "FORCED" Him to do things against His will. Do we bear His name? A Son chooses to serve His Father. Don't get caught up in you reducing the identity that Christ came to set you free from. "The truth will set you free" Not the "truth will set you to be my slave" He doesn't need or want you to be a "slave" He wants your entire heart, your life, but for you to give it willingly, not forced, not to be just a servant, but to be a Son. He purchased us to set us free if we believe, the purchase is not a "you are now forced to serve me" This is what I mean when I say and i will be bold here, when we have a twisted perspective of who God is - we read things into it and get it wrong. It is WILLINGLY giving up who we think we are and WILLINGLY becoming who He says He is. THere is NO FORCE, only love. Don't get caught up in the words and miss the intent. If you want to live as a slave and view yourself as one, that is your prerogative, but God says you are a Son, and He willingly wants you. Your choice to live life as a Son who willingly gives His life to God or a Slave who is forced to do so, never feeling like you quite measure up.

Edit: I think the Story of the Prodigal Son is a good example of this teaching/understanding, for the most part.

Not true. Bondservant is another softening by translators. Use your concordance, look at the original text. That is, if you are all about accuracy like you say you are.

Was Jesus a slave is nonsensical question. He is the Master. It's kind of in the title. He redeemed (which means purchased) us.

"...do you not know that... you are not your own? For you were bought at a price."

We are free in Christ. I'm sorry if this dichotomy is difficult to grasp and that it seems to be such a hang up for you. As it is written you may choose the alternative and be a slave to sin instead.

[ransomme]

I perceive that an anointing is not relative to forgiveness per se. My view is that an anointing occurs after having gone through enough experiences, while making the 'right' choices, which refines the individual to a certain state of being. Like doing a work out program for many years and the body is in top condition.

As far as mercy robbing justice, that all depends on one's concept of sin. Consider a courtroom in the U.S. where a man is being tried for a crime. As the trial proceeds , it is discovered that the man on trial is actually not a citizen of the U.S. and in his case, the law cannot apply to him and he is then deported to his country of origin. When he returns home, the judicial system awards him full freedom because no such law exists in that country for him to be found guilty of. He is exonerated of all charges.

The courtroom is the earth . The judge on earth is the God of this world.
His country of origin is where Christ resides.

just something to consider.

Does that help to see that there is a process to get to an event? And that to have one's C&E made sure is an event?

I perceive that the event of which you speak is a physical change that is irreversible. A change of nature that is incomprehensible to us right now. To go from the natural man back to what we were in 'pre-fall' position. As the fall itself enabled men to separate themselves from the Creator, the restoration event reverses that.

that being said, it is likely that there are many different types of 'events'. Some being stages where power is granted such as the use of the entire physical brain. Much has been written on the subject of what a man could accomplish with full use of the cerebrum.

there is more mystery than there are knowns. One concept that gives me peace is to believe that I am as my Father created me even though I am currently unable to remember it to the point of reversal. When we fully remember, this is over. All of it. When we wake up, we are no longer 'here'. The dream ends.

Well, have fun with that. Sweet dreams!

[ransomme]

Was Jesus a slave though? Despite the fact that we was bought with a slaves price? Though thinking about it it adds to the idea that "He who knew no sin became sin" we were chained/slaves to sin, couldn't escape, He became sin, was placed on a pole as sin, so the world could see God was cursing sin in the flesh so we might be free. Then He was resurrected. We in turn die in His likeness and are "born again" or resurrected as new creations. That said, Whose name do we bear/ are we supposed to bear? We are only slaves if we live our lives like the Law requires (in that we do only and don't become). Grace is what sets us free and makes us Sons. You are right, there is a pattern. Don't get trapped into thinking the Old Testament was God's intention for us- it, the law and its application was what happened when they rejected Him. The New Covenant is God's demonstration of what He desires in us, it is Righteousness for us through His Son becoming like the Son.

No. I am sorry that the precepts of men so easily beset believers. In the New Testament, the Greek word for slave (“δοῦλος” - “doulos”) some 150 times, although it only is translated as "slave" a few times. The word servant is just a kinder, gentler, more woke way to say, slave. I think in the NT there are ~6 Greek words that mean servant, but "doulos" is not one of them. If you don't like it, it still doesn't mean that it is not true.

"Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ..." - 2 Peter 1:1
"James (the half-brother of Jesus), a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ..." - James 1:1
"Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle..." - Romans 1:1
I am sensing a pattern here...
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His slaves the things which must soon happen; and He indicated this by sending it through His angel to His slave John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the witness of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it, for the time is near." - Revelation 1:1-3

"...as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart..." - Ephesians 6:5-6
"...‘Sir, you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ His master answered, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You have been faithful in a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’..." - Matthew 25:20-21
"...“Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the slaves of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those having been sealed, 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:" - Revelation 7:3-4

And to bring it home:
"But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching to which you were given over, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness...But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit, leading to sanctification, and the end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:17-18,22-23

Indeed, we are slaves to our loving Master and Lord Jesus Christ, who laid down His life for us in order to redeem/buy us from the bondage of sin.

You didn't answer my question. If you want to get into the wording it is actually bond-servant/slave - a bond servant is one that has been freed, but can choose to serve their master. Was Jesus a Slave? If He was a slave it was in the sense that His entire will was God's... because HE was love and GOd is love, not because God "FORCED" Him to do things against His will. Do we bear His name? A Son chooses to serve His Father. Don't get caught up in you reducing the identity that Christ came to set you free from. "The truth will set you free" Not the "truth will set you to be my slave" He doesn't need or want you to be a "slave" He wants your entire heart, your life, but for you to give it willingly, not forced, not to be just a servant, but to be a Son. He purchased us to set us free if we believe, the purchase is not a "you are now forced to serve me" This is what I mean when I say and i will be bold here, when we have a twisted perspective of who God is - we read things into it and get it wrong. It is WILLINGLY giving up who we think we are and WILLINGLY becoming who He says He is. THere is NO FORCE, only love. Don't get caught up in the words and miss the intent. If you want to live as a slave and view yourself as one, that is your prerogative, but God says you are a Son, and He willingly wants you. Your choice to live life as a Son who willingly gives His life to God or a Slave who is forced to do so, never feeling like you quite measure up.

Edit: I think the Story of the Prodigal Son is a good example of this teaching/understanding, for the most part.

And BTW, there are many questions that you either won't or can't answer in this thread alone.

[John Tavner]

No. I am sorry that the precepts of men so easily beset believers. In the New Testament, the Greek word for slave (“δοῦλος” - “doulos”) some 150 times, although it only is translated as "slave" a few times. The word servant is just a kinder, gentler, more woke way to say, slave. I think in the NT there are ~6 Greek words that mean servant, but "doulos" is not one of them. If you don't like it, it still doesn't mean that it is not true.

"Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ..." - 2 Peter 1:1
"James (the half-brother of Jesus), a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ..." - James 1:1
"Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle..." - Romans 1:1
I am sensing a pattern here...
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His slaves the things which must soon happen; and He indicated this by sending it through His angel to His slave John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the witness of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it, for the time is near." - Revelation 1:1-3

"...as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart..." - Ephesians 6:5-6
"...‘Sir, you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ His master answered, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You have been faithful in a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’..." - Matthew 25:20-21
"...“Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the slaves of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those having been sealed, 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:" - Revelation 7:3-4

And to bring it home:
"But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching to which you were given over, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness...But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit, leading to sanctification, and the end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:17-18,22-23

Indeed, we are slaves to our loving Master and Lord Jesus Christ, who laid down His life for us in order to redeem/buy us from the bondage of sin.

You didn't answer my question. If you want to get into the wording it is actually bond-servant/slave - a bond servant is one that has been freed, but can choose to serve their master. Was Jesus a Slave? If He was a slave it was in the sense that His entire will was God's... because HE was love and GOd is love, not because God "FORCED" Him to do things against His will. Do we bear His name? A Son chooses to serve His Father. Don't get caught up in you reducing the identity that Christ came to set you free from. "The truth will set you free" Not the "truth will set you to be my slave" He doesn't need or want you to be a "slave" He wants your entire heart, your life, but for you to give it willingly, not forced, not to be just a servant, but to be a Son. He purchased us to set us free if we believe, the purchase is not a "you are now forced to serve me" This is what I mean when I say and i will be bold here, when we have a twisted perspective of who God is - we read things into it and get it wrong. It is WILLINGLY giving up who we think we are and WILLINGLY becoming who He says He is. THere is NO FORCE, only love. Don't get caught up in the words and miss the intent. If you want to live as a slave and view yourself as one, that is your prerogative, but God says you are a Son, and He willingly wants you. Your choice to live life as a Son who willingly gives His life to God or a Slave who is forced to do so, never feeling like you quite measure up.

Edit: I think the Story of the Prodigal Son is a good example of this teaching/understanding, for the most part.

Not true. Bondservant is another softening by translators. Use your concordance, look at the original text. That is, if you are all about accuracy like you say you are.

Was Jesus a slave is nonsensical question. He is the Master. It's kind of in the title. He redeemed (which means purchased) us.

"...do you not know that... you are not your own? For you were bought at a price."

We are free in Christ. I'm sorry if this dichotomy is difficult to grasp and that it seems to be such a hang up for you. As it is written you may choose the alternative and be a slave to sin instead.

Are you disagreeing with the intent of what I am saying or arguing about a word?
You were the one that talked about Jesus being a slave through being purchased with 30 silver- HE was a slave in the same sense I'm saying we are to be slaves. We are one with Him - not in the sense I think you mean it (because you just said it was ridiculous to view Jesus as a slave, yet He did all the Father said, willingly He is our Master, but Put off His glory to become a SERVANT
Phil 2: 6Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant (doulos), being made in human likeness. ).

Lest you might say "he only took on the form" I will give you Isaiah 42: 1“Here is My Servant/slave (ebed) ( servant is not a master, but He is the Master), whom I uphold, My Chosen One, in whom My soul delights. I will put My Spirit on Him, and He will bring justice to the nations. Is it shocking to see that the translators in Greek from aramaic were trying to find the best word and landed on that? The intent is understood when we know who God is.
Unless I am misunderstanding what you mean by slave- Tell me what you think slave means.

By the way the exhaustive concordance is where I got my information.

This is the whole crux of the issue and I will repeat. We get some really twisted views of God if we don't understand and know Christ and believe Him and His purpose for us, God is love becoming love is our purpose and manifesting htat to others - it is why we are called "christians". We will read things that the writers never intended and never obtain the full potential that God sees in us, because we refuse to see because as you put it "the precepts of men."

I agree we are free in Christ- that isn't "difficult" for me to grasp, Because I'm free, I'm a willing slave- CHAINED to Christ UNWILLING to let go, but WILLINGLY giving Him ALL who I am and NOT because I am FORCED and have no other Choice.

Don't get your view of God twisted. Don't let a wrong view of God twist your understanding of His word- Get free, yield and submit an become what He said you are to be, a Son, manifesting what the SOn did in the flesh.

[Shawn Henry]

The original was Greek, no translation. They wrote in Greek.

Besides it's in the stories and the patterns and in the titles that our Master, Lord and Savior Jesus uses.

Yes, but that doesn't mean the original Greek stayed in previous iterations. Just look at our time. We went from the original Book of Commandments to the 1835 D&C, to the 1844 D&C, to the 1876 D&C, and so on.

The language might be original, but there is no way the text is.

[John Tavner]

The original was Greek, no translation. They wrote in Greek.

Besides it's in the stories and the patterns and in the titles that our Master, Lord and Savior Jesus uses.

Yes, but that doesn't mean the original Greek stayed in previous iterations. Just look at our time. We went from the original Book of Commandments to the 1835 D&C, to the 1844 D&C, to the 1876 D&C, and so on.

The language might be original, but there is no way the text is.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5650.htm

https://wixlabs-pdf-dev.appspot.com/@#$ ... 0-%201%2C3

https://www.hebrewgospels.com/james

If you look at the transcript for Hebrew in James' Gospel the word used is EBED see the Biblehub. The word basically means what I've been saying- but there is actually another use as well.. which is worshiper of God, which I was unaware of until now. It isn't meant to be the way we see slave now or even how the Romans viewed it.

The eved differs from the hired worker (sakhir) in three respects: he receives no wages for his work; he is a member of his master's household; and, his master exercises patria potestas over him - for example, the master may choose a wife for the slave and retains ownership of her and he has proprietary rights in him.A Hebrew could not become a slave unless by order of the court (for which see under Criminals, below) or by giving himself voluntarily into bondage

We are no longer criminals because of the blood and belief.. it leaves only one option. Voluntary bondage.

Edit: Actually I want to expound on Ebed/eved a little for the three respects 1) He receives no wages for His work - we aren't doing our service to God for "blessing" or to "get a better place in heaven" it is because we love Him 2) He is a member of His master's household (we are sons and daughters) 3)We willingly submit to God letting Him form us in His image form us into love.

[ransomme]

Not resistance, a proper perspective for despite God sending messages to prophets the full and entire understanding of who God was was not fully understood until Christ. IT is WHY He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Heb 1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son,a whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.b

3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

If we don't understand that, the rest is not seen with a proper perspective. We will have a twisted view of things. It's why John stated "in teh Beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was made flesh etc... Jesus IS the word living in the Flesh. We are to follow that example, that path because He IS the EXACT representation of God's nature. It's why John said "no man hath seen God" because no one fully grasped His nature and what His plan for us was until Christ came. Paul says that is the mystery of the ages that was not revealed until Christ came that is "CHrist in you the Hope of Glory" We ourselves are to become the Word living in the flesh- not just paying homage to God but having Him live inside of us, manifest through us, We are to be the BODY of Christ.

If something is built but the foundation is shaky, it will fall. Establish a strong foundation, then it will stand.

Going back to where this started, you dismiss the value of knowing things like God being the Father of our Spirits and knowledge of things to come. It's fine that you won't answer, I will accept that. No further need to make statements about things that you unjustifiably think that we don't get or understand. No need to strawman, and argue against things no one ever said, and positions no one ever took.

I think your last post was a complete non-sequitur. What's more, it restated things that I already said. I am glad that we agree on something at least.

Christ is the ultimate messenger, the Word (perfect embodiment/example of following God's counsel, full of His authority, bearer of His name, etc) of God. We are to receive the Spirit so we can become messengers, and speak with the tongue of angels, and be an extension of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Messiah as His epistles.

Kind of a bit of misunderstanding. My contention is Not that it isn't important that God is the Father of our Spirits- that is shown in Christ - in Him and His message- He encapsulates that. What i don't think is necessary is knowing about a pre-mortal existence needing to know that I lived with Him before this life- can it help, sure, with the right perspective based entirely on the udnerstanding of WHO the Father is. Jesus said My Father and Your Father (one who brings forth you life). Christ teaches I came forth from Him- just like Christ - Christ is that message- we are to be the embodiment of that message We come forth as Him as Christ is - What Christ Is, we are to be, but Unless I know Who Christ is and Know He is love and realize my entire purpose in life is to BECOME, that knowledge means nothing and until I realize I can't BECOME until I deny myself and yield to God to manifest Christ through me it is just religion. God wants relation, not religion. Christ is the manifestation of that relationship. I'm against "doing" things. More or less we can state the same thing, but most Mormons or mormonism in general places a large emphasis on "doing" to in order to "get to the goal" so to say. If I Know that I come from the Father, and I reject Christ, and the submission and yielding and becoming, I am missing the point- if I believe Christ, I will know that I come from teh Father from two ways 1) Jesus in prayer and 2) from the very fact that He says I am adopted into Him. The purpose isn't to receive the Spirit, the Spirit comes as we receive Christ- becauas ewe have the Spirit we can become messengers. I'm extremely nit picky with this because of movements I've seen where people are begging God to give them the Spirit and always thinking they ahve to "do" xyz to receive it. When they believe CHrist, they will receive the Spirit- It all begins and ends with Him.

You can feel it is a straw man or non-sequitor. THere is a purpose to what I'm saying.

Jesus' example was to DO the Father's will and His work.

And it sounds like you are hung up on your perceptions. Becoming and doing are indivisible. To become is to do. Especially when the core motivation is love.

If we love Him then we will keep His counsel, His commandments.

Faith without works is dead. Because faith is action. Which is why by one's works one shows one's faith. By their actions/faith we can tell what people trust in, believe in, and worship. And by the fruit of their actions we shall know them.

Also you seem to often speak as of things are exclusive. One may know about a premortal existence and know the Son, and by knowing the Son know the Father. Instead you limit and constrain and say no because Mormons this and movements that. Get over it and just embrace truth. Which by the way both the Old and New Testament teach about premortal existence.

Kind of like Luke pointed out, rather than being nit picky it seems like you are cherry picking.

And of course I understand that knowing anything about God's existence prior to life on Earth is less valuable than knowing about Jesus' life. But that is just neither here nor there, when it comes to answering a question about your belief(s). Are you ashamed? I mean it took nightlight a lot of calling you out to get you to admit some things. That is totally sus, just saying.

[John Tavner]

Going back to where this started, you dismiss the value of knowing things like God being the Father of our Spirits and knowledge of things to come. It's fine that you won't answer, I will accept that. No further need to make statements about things that you unjustifiably think that we don't get or understand. No need to strawman, and argue against things no one ever said, and positions no one ever took.

I think your last post was a complete non-sequitur. What's more, it restated things that I already said. I am glad that we agree on something at least.

Kind of a bit of misunderstanding. My contention is Not that it isn't important that God is the Father of our Spirits- that is shown in Christ - in Him and His message- He encapsulates that. What i don't think is necessary is knowing about a pre-mortal existence needing to know that I lived with Him before this life- can it help, sure, with the right perspective based entirely on the udnerstanding of WHO the Father is. Jesus said My Father and Your Father (one who brings forth you life). Christ teaches I came forth from Him- just like Christ - Christ is that message- we are to be the embodiment of that message We come forth as Him as Christ is - What Christ Is, we are to be, but Unless I know Who Christ is and Know He is love and realize my entire purpose in life is to BECOME, that knowledge means nothing and until I realize I can't BECOME until I deny myself and yield to God to manifest Christ through me it is just religion. God wants relation, not religion. Christ is the manifestation of that relationship. I'm against "doing" things. More or less we can state the same thing, but most Mormons or mormonism in general places a large emphasis on "doing" to in order to "get to the goal" so to say. If I Know that I come from the Father, and I reject Christ, and the submission and yielding and becoming, I am missing the point- if I believe Christ, I will know that I come from teh Father from two ways 1) Jesus in prayer and 2) from the very fact that He says I am adopted into Him. The purpose isn't to receive the Spirit, the Spirit comes as we receive Christ- becauas ewe have the Spirit we can become messengers. I'm extremely nit picky with this because of movements I've seen where people are begging God to give them the Spirit and always thinking they ahve to "do" xyz to receive it. When they believe CHrist, they will receive the Spirit- It all begins and ends with Him.

You can feel it is a straw man or non-sequitor. THere is a purpose to what I'm saying.

Jesus' example was to DO the Father's will and His work.

And it sounds like you are hung up on your perceptions. Becoming and doing are indivisible. To become is to do. Especially when the core motivation is love.

If we love Him then we will keep His counsel, His commandments.

Faith without works is dead. Because faith is action. Which is why by one's works one shows one's faith. By their actions/faith we can tell what people trust in, believe in, and worship. And by the fruit of their actions we shall know them.

Also you seem to often speak as of things are exclusive. One may know about a premortal existence and know the Son, and by knowing the Son know the Father. Instead you limit and constrain and say no because Mormons this and movements that. Get over it and just embrace truth. Which by the way both the Old and New Testament teach about premortal existence.

Kind of like Luke pointed out, rather than being nit picky it seems like you are cherry picking.

And of course I understand that knowing anything about God's existence prior to life on Earth is less valuable than knowing about Jesus' life. But that is just neither here nor there, when it comes to answering a question about your belief(s). Are you ashamed? I mean it took nightlight a lot of calling you out to get you to admit some things. That is totally sus, just saying.

I agree Jesus' example was to "DO" the Father's will and work, because HE WAS THE WILL OF GOD IN THE FLESH and He WILLINGLY Did it. HE WAS as in that IS His state of being, it was/IS WHO He was/IS. He did NOT JUST DO it because the Father told Him to. HE did it ALL because of WHO He was and His LOVE towards us and for us. He wanted us to be restored in our relationship with the Father and fulfill the divine potential God made us for in the beginning. And His message was "Follow me." Put another way, He couldn't have done the Father's work unless HE was WILLING unless He IS/WAS. As the Example He shows us what we are to become. If He wasn't love and didn't love us He never could have done the will of hte Father, because there would have been hypocrisy in Him and there was NO hypocrisy in Him.

I agree to become is to do, but to do is not to become and the problem is most of us try to DO to become. That is wrong entirely- if it doesn't apply to you, then don't apply it to yourself. Side note: there may be a place of growth in there, but too often our purpose is not to grow, we act out of fear or guilt rather than a desire to obtain faith and growth and in submission seeking to be transformed if the yielding to God is not found in there we are relying on our flesh to save us rather than grace through faith

Faith is not an action, faith is a trust and belief that leads to action. It is why one does their works by faith. If one does works to try to and prove belief they will fail. Half of our prayers are without faith. Most of us pray in unbelief or without faith, they are needs driven rather than faith or answer driven.

Know about Jesus' life IS the most important thing. It isn't a neither here nor there. It is THE thing. THat is my entire point. I have said that multiple times. That is fine you can think I"m cherry picking- but for clarification- I'm defining the word and interpreting hte word through Jesus who is the Word who spoke the Will of God as clear as can be, not through people, but through His Son, who was the visible image of the Invisible God.

I don't know what you mean about Nightlight calling me out or what you are talking about in regards to me not admitting things until then. Please explain? No I"m not ashamed, sometimes I don't want to get into the weeds of things because I don't find it relevant, his question was in my mind and understanding irrelevant to what I had been saying (I still don't know how it was relevant) and the entire premise of what I have been saying is this "Unless you know God which means to come unto HIm and become love, through yielding and submitting all this knowledge and supposed understanding and doing will mean nothing- so it doesn't matter if we can't believe the Life of Jesus and what HE says about us and His purpose for us. HE IS THE Way, The Truth and The Life. Do we understand that HE is supposed to be OUR LIFE, OUR WAY, OUR TRUTH. Every perspective we take has to be through Jesus life. If we can't see it in Jesus' life it shouldn't be in ours. I am trying to show but apparently failing how our view has gotten so messed up that we (in general) don't put Christ first. We talk about Him, we preach about Him, but we don't become like Him because we see ourselves through our circumstances and the precepts of man rather than what Christ said about us. We don't yield to Him, but we will talk for hours about our pre-mortal existence and then create theologies about who was worse beforehand and who was better etc etc.. We incorporate CHrist into our lives more than we become like Him in our lives. The whole "calling and election" thing get so focused on the "event" or whatever that we miss the purpose of which is to BECOME. IF we yield, it will come. If we do as Peter says, not because I need to "do" it but because I am yielding and submitting and letting God become my life through Christ, then it happens because we learn to trust and have faith in Christ, we grow from grace to grace.

I know I"m militant about this and sorry if I"m too forceful, it isn't my intention, I"m trying to break the mindsets that we've grown un with. maybe I'm terrible at explaining myself, but these nuances are so essential to embracing and knowing God- because knowing Him means you become love and Know Him also means you have eternal life. If we have not love we are nothing. IF we miss this we will strive all our days, be miserable "HOPING" but not in the scriptural way that God will see somehow to accept us, and never come to know God because we never fully communed with Him and let His Spirit have His way with us and transform us into His image, which is Love. We will find Matt 7 happening to us despite all our "wonderful works" and "casting outs."

[ransomme]

The original was Greek, no translation. They wrote in Greek.

Besides it's in the stories and the patterns and in the titles that our Master, Lord and Savior Jesus uses.

Yes, but that doesn't mean the original Greek stayed in previous iterations. Just look at our time. We went from the original Book of Commandments to the 1835 D&C, to the 1844 D&C, to the 1876 D&C, and so on.

The language might be original, but there is no way the text is.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5650.htm

https://wixlabs-pdf-dev.appspot.com/@#$ ... 0-%201%2C3

https://www.hebrewgospels.com/james

If you look at the transcript for Hebrew in James' Gospel the word used is EBED see the Biblehub. The word basically means what I've been saying- but there is actually another use as well.. which is worshiper of God, which I was unaware of until now. It isn't meant to be the way we see slave now or even how the Romans viewed it.

The eved differs from the hired worker (sakhir) in three respects: he receives no wages for his work; he is a member of his master's household; and, his master exercises patria potestas over him - for example, the master may choose a wife for the slave and retains ownership of her and he has proprietary rights in him.A Hebrew could not become a slave unless by order of the court (for which see under Criminals, below) or by giving himself voluntarily into bondage

We are no longer criminals because of the blood and belief.. it leaves only one option. Voluntary bondage.

Edit: Actually I want to expound on Ebed/eved a little for the three respects 1) He receives no wages for His work - we aren't doing our service to God for "blessing" or to "get a better place in heaven" it is because we love Him 2) He is a member of His master's household (we are sons and daughters) 3)We willingly submit to God letting Him form us in His image form us into love.

Why would we look at Hebrew? Or think that the original was in Hebrew for select books in the New Testament? Jesus and James spoke Aramaic, as did pretty much everyone in Judea. Greek would gave been the second language in Judea and is what everyone spoke in the greater area beyond Judea.

I'll look at that site, but it seems to be new in 2020-2023.

Doulus / δοῦλος
https://biblehub.com/greek/1401.htm

Here is a footnote from the NET bible translators:
tn Grk “slaves.” Although this translation frequently renders δοῦλος (doulos) as “slave,” the connotation is often of one who has sold himself into slavery; in a spiritual sense, the idea is that of becoming a slave of God or of Jesus Christ voluntarily. The voluntary notion is conspicuous here; hence, the translation “servants.” In any case, the word does not bear the connotation of a free individual serving another. BDAG notes that “‘servant’ for ‘slave’ is largely confined to Biblical transl. and early American times…in normal usage at the present time the two words are carefully distinguished” (BDAG 260 s.v.). A good translation is “bondservant” (sometimes found in the ASV for δοῦλος), in that it often indicates one who sells himself into slavery to another. But as this is archaic, few today understand its force.

[John Tavner]

Yes, but that doesn't mean the original Greek stayed in previous iterations. Just look at our time. We went from the original Book of Commandments to the 1835 D&C, to the 1844 D&C, to the 1876 D&C, and so on.

The language might be original, but there is no way the text is.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5650.htm

https://wixlabs-pdf-dev.appspot.com/@#$ ... 0-%201%2C3

https://www.hebrewgospels.com/james

If you look at the transcript for Hebrew in James' Gospel the word used is EBED see the Biblehub. The word basically means what I've been saying- but there is actually another use as well.. which is worshiper of God, which I was unaware of until now. It isn't meant to be the way we see slave now or even how the Romans viewed it.

The eved differs from the hired worker (sakhir) in three respects: he receives no wages for his work; he is a member of his master's household; and, his master exercises patria potestas over him - for example, the master may choose a wife for the slave and retains ownership of her and he has proprietary rights in him.A Hebrew could not become a slave unless by order of the court (for which see under Criminals, below) or by giving himself voluntarily into bondage

We are no longer criminals because of the blood and belief.. it leaves only one option. Voluntary bondage.

Edit: Actually I want to expound on Ebed/eved a little for the three respects 1) He receives no wages for His work - we aren't doing our service to God for "blessing" or to "get a better place in heaven" it is because we love Him 2) He is a member of His master's household (we are sons and daughters) 3)We willingly submit to God letting Him form us in His image form us into love.

Why would we look at Hebrew? Or think that the original was in Hebrew for select books in the New Testament? Jesus and James spoke Aramaic, as did pretty much everyone in Judea. Greek would gave been the second language in Judea and is what everyone spoke in the greater area beyond Judea.

I'll look at that site, but it seems to be new in 2020-2023.

Doulus / δοῦλος
https://biblehub.com/greek/1401.htm

If you look at the site you will see what they are saying the argumetns they give and why.

Yep... The Exhaustive concordance. Strong's.

Yep. to Sell yourself, you have to WILLINGLY do so.

Because I'm free, I'm a willing slave (choosing to sell myself)- CHAINED to Christ UNWILLING to let go, but WILLINGLY giving Him ALL who I am and NOT because I am FORCED and have no other Choice.

And the beautiful thing is that even though we do this God still sees us as Sons for that is what HE created us to be Romans 8" 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ— if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

1 Peter 1 By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you,

[ransomme]

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5650.htm

https://wixlabs-pdf-dev.appspot.com/@#$ ... 0-%201%2C3

https://www.hebrewgospels.com/james

If you look at the transcript for Hebrew in James' Gospel the word used is EBED see the Biblehub. The word basically means what I've been saying- but there is actually another use as well.. which is worshiper of God, which I was unaware of until now. It isn't meant to be the way we see slave now or even how the Romans viewed it.

The eved differs from the hired worker (sakhir) in three respects: he receives no wages for his work; he is a member of his master's household; and, his master exercises patria potestas over him - for example, the master may choose a wife for the slave and retains ownership of her and he has proprietary rights in him.A Hebrew could not become a slave unless by order of the court (for which see under Criminals, below) or by giving himself voluntarily into bondage

We are no longer criminals because of the blood and belief.. it leaves only one option. Voluntary bondage.

Edit: Actually I want to expound on Ebed/eved a little for the three respects 1) He receives no wages for His work - we aren't doing our service to God for "blessing" or to "get a better place in heaven" it is because we love Him 2) He is a member of His master's household (we are sons and daughters) 3)We willingly submit to God letting Him form us in His image form us into love.

Why would we look at Hebrew? Or think that the original was in Hebrew for select books in the New Testament? Jesus and James spoke Aramaic, as did pretty much everyone in Judea. Greek would gave been the second language in Judea and is what everyone spoke in the greater area beyond Judea.

I'll look at that site, but it seems to be new in 2020-2023.

Doulus / δοῦλος
https://biblehub.com/greek/1401.htm

If you look at the site you will see what they are saying the argumetns they give and why.

Yep... The Exhaustive concordance. Strong's.

Yep. to Sell yourself, you have to WILLINGLY do so.

Because I'm free, I'm a willing slave (choosing to sell myself)- CHAINED to Christ UNWILLING to let go, but WILLINGLY giving Him ALL who I am and NOT because I am FORCED and have no other Choice.

There is always the choice:

Tree of life vs Tree of Knowledge of good and evil
Tree of Life vs the Great and Spacious Building
Jesus vs Sin
Life vs Death
Grace or Justice
Submit to His counsel or rebel
Etc. etc.

Here let me add that when you look back at the Bible you must use their worldview. It leads to many errors to use a modern worldview and definitions. As you will see servant/bondsman/slave are all related. So call it what you will, but a rose by any other name is still a rose. It's also worth noting this comment also from the NET Bible from another passage using "slave": sn Undoubtedly the background for the concept of being the Lord’s slave or servant is to be found in the Old Testament scriptures. For a Jew this concept did not connote drudgery, but honor and privilege. It was used of national Israel at times (Isa 43:10), but was especially associated with famous OT personalities, including such great men as Moses (Josh 14:7), David (Ps 89:3; cf. 2 Sam 7:5, 8) and Elijah (2 Kgs 10:10); all these men were “servants (or slaves) of the Lord.”

abad (primitive root) - to work, serve
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5647.htm
abad (Aramaic) - to make, do
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5648.htm
abad (Aramaic) - slave, servant
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5649.htm
ebed (from abed) - slave, servant
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5650.htm
Ebed (proper name from abad) - "servant", two Israelites
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5651.htm

1828 Webster's Dictionary
Servant - 3. In Scripture, a slave; a bondman; one purchased for money, and who was compelled to serve till the year of jubilee; also, one purchased for a term of years.

Remember I suggested looking at Biblical slavery. Here is a short explanation as to why. We are already in bondage, the bondage of sin. Whether we choose to be or not, and Jesus is our Lord and Master because He bought us all. In order to not be delivered to Justice, we must covenant/ally with Jesus, the Lord and Master of all creation. We may choose to serve Him willingly or rebel. Nevertheless, we are all slaves until the Jubilee. We are waiting for the Jubilee of Jubilees. "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. And the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed." (John 8:34-36) *see note at the bottom, also from the NET Bible, and I think you'll find that discussion is interesting.

In regular cycles of Shemittah years (7th year) and the Yovel (Jubilee - seven 7's + 1=50th year) on Shemittah and Jubilee years no planting was done. The Jubilee year was the non-negotiable year of freedom, during which all slaves were released. Also, property was returned (“...the land may not be sold forever, for the land is Mine; for you are strangers and sojourners with Me. ” - Leviticus 25:23); Similar to counting the 49 days of the Omer, the 49 years of the Yovel were counted. So for example on the eighth year of the Yovel, the house of law (the Beth Din in Jerusalem) would say something like, “Blessed is the L‑rd our G‑d, King of the Universe, who commanded us to count the Shemittah and Yovel. This year is eight years, which are one Shemittah and one year to the Yovel . . .”; The announcement of the year of liberty occurred during Yom Kippur via a sounding of a shofar across the land of Israel.

Now there has been so much talk about the slavery/bondservant/servant aspect, but there hasn't been much discussion of what comes after. To become adopted sons and daughters of Jesus the Messiah. This is also the pattern from Adam (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 64-p68#p64) to us. Follow the Doctrine of Christ and be adopted. If we are not adopted and don't bear his name then we will have to bear the weight of our sins alone (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 15-p20#p15) "I tell you the truth, you will never get out of there until you have paid the last penny!" (Matthew 5:26); For "...it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory." (D&C 19:6-7)

Read Romans 8, it's quite beautiful: "...creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God"
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... on=NET;LSB

There is much more to all this. But if you don't get it, there is still hope.

*Note:
Jesus in John 8:35, “Now the slave does not remain (μένω, menō) in the household forever, but the son remains (μένω) forever.” If in the imagery of the Fourth Gospel, the phrase in my Father’s house is ultimately a reference to Jesus’ body, the relationship of μονή to μένω suggests the permanent relationship of the believer to Jesus and the Father as an adopted son who remains in the household forever. In this case, the “dwelling place” is “in” Jesus himself, where he is, whether in heaven or on earth. The statement in v. 3, “I will come again and receive you to myself,” then refers not just to the parousia, but also to Jesus’ post-resurrection return to the disciples in his glorified state, when by virtue of his death on their behalf they may enter into union with him and with the Father as adopted sons. Needless to say, this bears numerous similarities to Pauline theology, especially the concepts of adoption as sons and being “in Christ” which are prominent in passages like Eph 1. It is also important to note, however, the emphasis in the Fourth Gospel itself on the present reality of eternal life (John 5:24; 7:38-39, etc.) and the possibility of worshiping the Father “in the Spirit and in truth” (John 4:21-24) in the present age. There is a sense in which it is possible to say that the future reality is present now. See further J. McCaffrey, The House With Many Rooms (AnBib 114).

[ransomme]

See my comments in red.

I agree Jesus' example was to "DO" the Father's will and work, because HE WAS THE WILL OF GOD IN THE FLESH and He WILLINGLY Did it. HE WAS as in that IS His state of being, it was/IS WHO He was/IS. He did NOT JUST DO it because the Father told Him to. HE did it ALL because of WHO He was and His LOVE towards us and for us. He wanted us to be restored in our relationship with the Father and fulfill the divine potential God made us for in the beginning. And His message was "Follow me." Put another way, He couldn't have done the Father's work unless HE was WILLING unless He IS/WAS. As the Example He shows us what we are to become. If He wasn't love and didn't love us He never could have done the will of hte Father, because there would have been hypocrisy in Him and there was NO hypocrisy in Him. yeah, this is good.

I agree to become is to do, but to do is not to become and the problem is most of us try to DO to become. That is wrong entirely- if it doesn't apply to you, then don't apply it to yourself. Side note: there may be a place of growth in there, but too often our purpose is not to grow, we act out of fear or guilt rather than a desire to obtain faith and growth and in submission seeking to be transformed if the yielding to God is not found in there we are relying on our flesh to save us rather than grace through faith. never said "to do is to become". This is the kind of thing that I think Nightlight was talking about. You argue against things that no one said or thinks, so it appears as a strawman.

Faith is not an action, faith is a trust and belief that leads to action. It is why one does their works by faith. If one does works to try to and prove belief they will fail. Half of our prayers are without faith. Most of us pray in unbelief or without faith, they are needs driven rather than faith or answer driven. See below, faith is a larger principle than that. Well not just a principle it is an ordinance

Know about Jesus' life IS the most important thing. It isn't a neither here nor there. It is THE thing. THat is my entire point. I have said that multiple times. That is fine you can think I"m cherry picking- but for clarification- I'm defining the word and interpreting hte word through Jesus who is the Word who spoke the Will of God as clear as can be, not through people, but through His Son, who was the visible image of the Invisible God. It may be THE thing, but it's not the only thing. "He counts the number of the stars;
he names all of them." (Psalms 147:4) He knows and cares about way more than you give Him credit for. That's why we don't get how you easily dismiss things of God. So it looks much worse when given what you admit to believing and not believing. It seems disingenuine at the very least.

I don't know what you mean about Nightlight calling me out or what you are talking about in regards to me not admitting things until then. Please explain? No I"m not ashamed, sometimes I don't want to get into the weeds of things because I don't find it relevant, his question was in my mind and understanding irrelevant to what I had been saying (I still don't know how it was relevant) and the entire premise of what I have been saying is this "Unless you know God which means to come unto HIm and become love, through yielding and submitting all this knowledge and supposed understanding and doing will mean nothing- so it doesn't matter if we can't believe the Life of Jesus and what HE says about us and His purpose for us. HE IS THE Way, The Truth and The Life. Do we understand that HE is supposed to be OUR LIFE, OUR WAY, OUR TRUTH. Every perspective we take has to be through Jesus life. If we can't see it in Jesus' life it shouldn't be in ours. I am trying to show but apparently failing how our view has gotten so messed up that we (in general) don't put Christ first. We talk about Him, we preach about Him, but we don't become like Him because we see ourselves through our circumstances and the precepts of man rather than what Christ said about us. We don't yield to Him, but we will talk for hours about our pre-mortal existence and then create theologies about who was worse beforehand and who was better etc etc.. We incorporate CHrist into our lives more than we become like Him in our lives. The whole "calling and election" thing get so focused on the "event" or whatever that we miss the purpose of which is to BECOME. IF we yield, it will come. If we do as Peter says, not because I need to "do" it but because I am yielding and submitting and letting God become my life through Christ, then it happens because we learn to trust and have faith in Christ, we grow from grace to grace. Answering a question like **Do you believe you existed as spirit in heaven before you came to earth and took to the flesh?** or **Do you believe this land was set apart, as the Book of Mormon claims ?** is not getting into the weeds

I know I"m militant about this and sorry if I"m too forceful, it isn't my intention, I"m trying to break the mindsets that we've grown un with. maybe I'm terrible at explaining myself, but these nuances are so essential to embracing and knowing God- because knowing Him means you become love and Know Him also means you have eternal life. If we have not love we are nothing. IF we miss this we will strive all our days, be miserable "HOPING" but not in the scriptural way that God will see somehow to accept us, and never come to know God because we never fully communed with Him and let His Spirit have His way with us and transform us into His image, which is Love. We will find Matt 7 happening to us despite all our "wonderful works" and "casting outs." These wonderful works are done by and in faith. Faith is action. "they who have faith in him will CLEAVE unto every good thing…to MINISTER according to the word of his command, SHOWING themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness…And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have POWER TO DO whatsoever thing is expedient in me…for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men;" (Moroni 7)

Hope: Hebrew words for hope include qavah (to wait for - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/6960.htm), batach (to trust - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/982.htm), and yachal (to wait, await - https://www.biblehub.com/hebrew/3176.htm) are used to indicate trust in God to not disappoint us. Qavah is found within biblical prayers that express belief that God will transform hopes into reality, batach to trust in God, and yachal as in waiting patiently for God.

The Greek word is elpis. According to Strong’s Concordance, elpis (https://biblehub.com/greek/1680.htm) means hope, expectation, trust, and confidence. Elpis is an expectation of what is guaranteed.

Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. - 1 Peter 1:13
We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, sure and steadfast, which reaches inside behind the veil, where Jesus our forerunner entered on our behalf, since he became a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek. - Hebrews 6:19-20 You see knowing about what is to come is very important, it is knowing who Jesus is and that He is able to deliver on His promises! It is similar to know what came before, and knowing things like Jesus Had glory with the Father before He descended to Earth in the Flesh.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we were saved, but hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we eagerly wait for it. - Romans 8:18-25

Hope is essential to “Enduring to the End” (part of the Doctrine of Christ). Perseverance in our suffering brings hope.
sons of God, see (John 1:12; Romans 8:2,8,14; 1 John 3:1-3; 3 Nephi 9:17; Moroni 7:26,48; D&C 11:30, 32:5, & 45:8; Moses 6:62-68) but this also seems to be referring to the Endtime when God swore to return Zion, the City of Enoch to the Earth;
Hebrew 12:22-23 "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."
JST, Genesis 9:21–25: God sets the rainbow in heaven as a reminder of His covenant to Enoch and to Noah. In the last days the general assembly of the Church of the Firstborn will join the righteous on earth.
21 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch; that, when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch which I have caught up unto myself.
22 And this is mine everlasting covenant, that when thy posterity shall embrace the truth, and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy;
23 And the general assembly of the church of the firstborn shall come down out of heaven, and possess the earth, and shall have place until the end come. And this is mine everlasting covenant, which I made with thy father Enoch.
24 And the bow shall be in the cloud, and I will establish my covenant unto thee, which I have made between me and thee, for every living creature of all flesh that shall be upon the earth.
25 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant which I have established between me and thee; for all flesh that shall be upon the earth.

Faith is something we "exercise", something we put into action. Faith is an animating principle, and without action, it is nothing.
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. - James 2:26

Faith is more than believing, it is acting. We act to realize, to bring about what we hope for. We act in accordance with what we believe and what we treasure. The word “believe” sometimes refers to an acknowledgment that a certain statement is true, and sometimes as a definite commitment of one’s soul into acting.
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see. - Hebrews 11:1

Scripture often uses the word obedience as a synonym for faith (John 3:36; Acts 6:7; Hebrews 5:9). Obedience is not passive either.

Also in reference to God's promise to Enoch and Noah by the sign of the bow "exercise faith", "keep all my commandments", etc. Faith is about taking action:
Ether 4
6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.
7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

And it is "...by faith, they become the sons of God..." (Moroni 7) How is this done? By acting, by BECOMING, and partaking in the divine nature of God. SHOWING forth the fruits. FAITH is to BECOME, which is TO DO.

[John Tavner]

See my comments in red.

I agree Jesus' example was to "DO" the Father's will and work, because HE WAS THE WILL OF GOD IN THE FLESH and He WILLINGLY Did it. HE WAS as in that IS His state of being, it was/IS WHO He was/IS. He did NOT JUST DO it because the Father told Him to. HE did it ALL because of WHO He was and His LOVE towards us and for us. He wanted us to be restored in our relationship with the Father and fulfill the divine potential God made us for in the beginning. And His message was "Follow me." Put another way, He couldn't have done the Father's work unless HE was WILLING unless He IS/WAS. As the Example He shows us what we are to become. If He wasn't love and didn't love us He never could have done the will of hte Father, because there would have been hypocrisy in Him and there was NO hypocrisy in Him. yeah, this is good.

I agree to become is to do, but to do is not to become and the problem is most of us try to DO to become. That is wrong entirely- if it doesn't apply to you, then don't apply it to yourself. Side note: there may be a place of growth in there, but too often our purpose is not to grow, we act out of fear or guilt rather than a desire to obtain faith and growth and in submission seeking to be transformed if the yielding to God is not found in there we are relying on our flesh to save us rather than grace through faith. never said "to do is to become". This is the kind of thing that I think Nightlight was talking about. You argue against things that no one said or thinks, so it appears as a strawman.

Faith is not an action, faith is a trust and belief that leads to action. It is why one does their works by faith. If one does works to try to and prove belief they will fail. Half of our prayers are without faith. Most of us pray in unbelief or without faith, they are needs driven rather than faith or answer driven. See below, faith is a larger principle than that. Well not just a principle it is an ordinance

Know about Jesus' life IS the most important thing. It isn't a neither here nor there. It is THE thing. THat is my entire point. I have said that multiple times. That is fine you can think I"m cherry picking- but for clarification- I'm defining the word and interpreting hte word through Jesus who is the Word who spoke the Will of God as clear as can be, not through people, but through His Son, who was the visible image of the Invisible God. It may be THE thing, but it's not the only thing. "He counts the number of the stars;
he names all of them." (Psalms 147:4) He knows and cares about way more than you give Him credit for. That's why we don't get how you easily dismiss things of God. So it looks much worse when given what you admit to believing and not believing. It seems disingenuine at the very least.

I don't know what you mean about Nightlight calling me out or what you are talking about in regards to me not admitting things until then. Please explain? No I"m not ashamed, sometimes I don't want to get into the weeds of things because I don't find it relevant, his question was in my mind and understanding irrelevant to what I had been saying (I still don't know how it was relevant) and the entire premise of what I have been saying is this "Unless you know God which means to come unto HIm and become love, through yielding and submitting all this knowledge and supposed understanding and doing will mean nothing- so it doesn't matter if we can't believe the Life of Jesus and what HE says about us and His purpose for us. HE IS THE Way, The Truth and The Life. Do we understand that HE is supposed to be OUR LIFE, OUR WAY, OUR TRUTH. Every perspective we take has to be through Jesus life. If we can't see it in Jesus' life it shouldn't be in ours. I am trying to show but apparently failing how our view has gotten so messed up that we (in general) don't put Christ first. We talk about Him, we preach about Him, but we don't become like Him because we see ourselves through our circumstances and the precepts of man rather than what Christ said about us. We don't yield to Him, but we will talk for hours about our pre-mortal existence and then create theologies about who was worse beforehand and who was better etc etc.. We incorporate CHrist into our lives more than we become like Him in our lives. The whole "calling and election" thing get so focused on the "event" or whatever that we miss the purpose of which is to BECOME. IF we yield, it will come. If we do as Peter says, not because I need to "do" it but because I am yielding and submitting and letting God become my life through Christ, then it happens because we learn to trust and have faith in Christ, we grow from grace to grace. Answering a question like **Do you believe you existed as spirit in heaven before you came to earth and took to the flesh?** or **Do you believe this land was set apart, as the Book of Mormon claims ?** is not getting into the weeds

I know I"m militant about this and sorry if I"m too forceful, it isn't my intention, I"m trying to break the mindsets that we've grown un with. maybe I'm terrible at explaining myself, but these nuances are so essential to embracing and knowing God- because knowing Him means you become love and Know Him also means you have eternal life. If we have not love we are nothing. IF we miss this we will strive all our days, be miserable "HOPING" but not in the scriptural way that God will see somehow to accept us, and never come to know God because we never fully communed with Him and let His Spirit have His way with us and transform us into His image, which is Love. We will find Matt 7 happening to us despite all our "wonderful works" and "casting outs." These wonderful works are done by and in faith. Faith is action. "they who have faith in him will CLEAVE unto every good thing…to MINISTER according to the word of his command, SHOWING themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness…And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have POWER TO DO whatsoever thing is expedient in me…for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men;" (Moroni 7)

Hope: Hebrew words for hope include qavah (to wait for - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/6960.htm), batach (to trust - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/982.htm), and yachal (to wait, await - https://www.biblehub.com/hebrew/3176.htm) are used to indicate trust in God to not disappoint us. Qavah is found within biblical prayers that express belief that God will transform hopes into reality, batach to trust in God, and yachal as in waiting patiently for God.

The Greek word is elpis. According to Strong’s Concordance, elpis (https://biblehub.com/greek/1680.htm) means hope, expectation, trust, and confidence. Elpis is an expectation of what is guaranteed.

Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. - 1 Peter 1:13
We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, sure and steadfast, which reaches inside behind the veil, where Jesus our forerunner entered on our behalf, since he became a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek. - Hebrews 6:19-20 You see knowing about what is to come is very important, it is knowing who Jesus is and that He is able to deliver on His promises! It is similar to know what came before, and knowing things like Jesus Had glory with the Father before He descended to Earth in the Flesh.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we were saved, but hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we eagerly wait for it. - Romans 8:18-25

Hope is essential to “Enduring to the End” (part of the Doctrine of Christ). Perseverance in our suffering brings hope.
sons of God, see (John 1:12; Romans 8:2,8,14; 1 John 3:1-3; 3 Nephi 9:17; Moroni 7:26,48; D&C 11:30, 32:5, & 45:8; Moses 6:62-68) but this also seems to be referring to the Endtime when God swore to return Zion, the City of Enoch to the Earth;
Hebrew 12:22-23 "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."
JST, Genesis 9:21–25: God sets the rainbow in heaven as a reminder of His covenant to Enoch and to Noah. In the last days the general assembly of the Church of the Firstborn will join the righteous on earth.
21 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch; that, when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch which I have caught up unto myself.
22 And this is mine everlasting covenant, that when thy posterity shall embrace the truth, and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy;
23 And the general assembly of the church of the firstborn shall come down out of heaven, and possess the earth, and shall have place until the end come. And this is mine everlasting covenant, which I made with thy father Enoch.
24 And the bow shall be in the cloud, and I will establish my covenant unto thee, which I have made between me and thee, for every living creature of all flesh that shall be upon the earth.
25 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant which I have established between me and thee; for all flesh that shall be upon the earth.

Faith is something we "exercise", something we put into action. Faith is an animating principle, and without action, it is nothing.
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. - James 2:26

Faith is more than believing, it is acting. We act to realize, to bring about what we hope for. We act in accordance with what we believe and what we treasure. The word “believe” sometimes refers to an acknowledgment that a certain statement is true, and sometimes as a definite commitment of one’s soul into acting.
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see. - Hebrews 11:1

Scripture often uses the word obedience as a synonym for faith (John 3:36; Acts 6:7; Hebrews 5:9). Obedience is not passive either.

Also in reference to God's promise to Enoch and Noah by the sign of the bow "exercise faith", "keep all my commandments", etc. Faith is about taking action:
Ether 4
6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.
7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

And it is "...by faith, they become the sons of God..." (Moroni 7) How is this done? By acting, by BECOMING, and partaking in the divine nature of God. SHOWING forth the fruits. FAITH is to BECOME, which is TO DO.

I'm not reading most of your stuff at this point- no offense intended I'm jsut finished with the conversation. ANd i don't answer questions because it isn't relevant to the topic at hand- it can be used as an ad hominem attack - like was used later "you don't believe in that, so why should I believe what you say" Again no condemnation on him, just that it seemed irrelevant to me.

Much of what I say is for others reading, not so much for you it is to clarify things because while you may not say to "do is to become" the majority of people take that approach. They think they have to "do" to have faith. You have faith and then you do- it's why there is so much unbelief in the world. THey think because they "do" they have faith. You don't, not unless you believe and trust and have hope. Most people's perception of faith and the scirptures they use is a parroting of what man tells them and how to interpret scirpture. Ask God for faith- beleiving HE wants to give it to you, and willingly expecting it (hope) ( It is a gift) and you will begin to receive (that is for anyone a general statement). If you lack hope, ask for that, believing HE wants to Give it to you. If you draw near God HE will draw near you.

I've made my point. If your obsession is with making people slaves in the terms you want rather than how God sees it which is willingly giving Him our all (AND WILLINGLY RECEIVING HIS ALL- Sonship), that is up to you. That concept of slavery which man uses that is not scriptures intent or God's intent. If you are agreeing with me, great, if not, then so be it, that will be how you live your life. "As a man thinketh in His heart, so Is He." It is not how God intends you to see it- other than the sense that you are willingly giving Him EVERYTHING you are because you love Him and are a Son and wish to serve your Father, so you commit to doing so forever, but of your own free will- even though you can still reject that, but if you truly are humble (like a slave) and you love Him you will not want to and the best word to describe that in translation is a slave and Yet He in turn Gives you Him and the Inheritance of a Son becaues that is what you are.

And to be clear I never said He didn't care about things or not certain things.He cares about our souls. I am saying He is Life. If He is not our Life, then we are dead. And it isn't just a moment in time, though moments happen it is a WAY, THE WAY of living. All else will not matter (for us) if He isn't our life, despite the fact He is constantly wooing us to His life. That is THE TRUTH and if we aren't living our iife of Him all other things will not be seen as intended. If that perspective isn't on straight all of this back and forth is pointless because people get more caught up in Knowledge of things than knowing Him.