What does it take to be the Lord's anointed?

[John Tavner]

Another vote here for a much broader meaning for being anointed. But only in the sense that a fetus in the womb is no less a baby than it is when finally born.

I find it interesting that the Old Testament, particularly Leviticus, makes a distinction between being a priest and being anointed (eg. Lev. 4:16).

In other places it is simply used as chosen (eg. Lev. 7:36) and others as sanctified. I like the language of D&C 121 in speaking about being chosen, “distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.”

Isa. 61


Acts 4


Then there’s the imagery of being healed through anointment. Having one’s blind eyes anointed and then being able to see. (cf. John 9:6-11)

In the Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer, all those present were referred to as “thine anointed ones”. (cf. D&C 109:80) Earlier in the prayer, "that they may grow up in thee, and receive a fulness of the Holy Ghost".

Going back to my first statement, it seems like in the broadest sense, the Lord’s anointed may simply be those who have entered into the gospel covenant through baptism.

It has been noted above (Allison) that it could mean all temple endowed, which I agree with in the sense that the endowment rite is symbolic of things realized literally through living the doctrine of Christ. Endowed with power from on high - receiving the First Comforter line upon line until one beholds the face of the Second.

Seems like you are saying that at the very least one needs to have had a baptism of fire and exhibit gifts of the spirit.

“The anointing and sealing is to be called, elected, and made sure.” Joseph Smith, Jr.

Was Joseph not saying this?
The anointing and sealing is to be called, (and then one needs to be) elected, and (finally that election needs to be) made sure.

A type of growing from grace to grace?

He is quoting/ summarizing Peter. 1 Peter “Brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: Peter explains it pretty well. 2 Peter chapter 1. He is talking to those who have been called and elected (believers of Chrsit who were anointed by the Holy Ghost when it fell upon them) He shares how to "confirm" or "Make it sure" meaning live your life in such a way it demonstrates the anointing you've received. Really good chapter.

1 John 2:20~ But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.
1 John 2:27~ But the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.
John 14:26 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.
2 Cor 1:22 21Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us (believers), 22 placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.

Yes I realize what Joseph is referring to. The things that Joseph said about C&E were greatly inspired by his work on the inspired version of the Bible. In fact, I quoted 2 Peter 1:1-11 last week I'm my elders' quorum lesson.

It's more than only being born again, and receiving a baptism of fire.

Joseph Smith said: “Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their election and calling was made sure. … They then would want that more sure word of prophecy, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promise sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble and tribulation.” (Teachings, p. 298.)

“The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.” (D&C 131:5.)

Example in scripture:
Nephi in chapter 10 in the book of Helaman. It is becoming Firstborn, receiving the sealing power.

We have to "become partakers of divine nature"
Screenshot_20230317-160834~2.jpg

Like I said, he was quoting from 2 Peter That whole chapter explains how to partake of Divine nature- It explains exactly what I said. Joseph revealed nothing new. The Book of Mormon revealed nothing new. The Holy Ghost is how one begins to partake and are anointed then they grow up into hte full stature of Christ. THe "sealing" power is a creation of man - it is just when one is aligned with God they do as HE would do- it isn't somethign special- it is becoming ONE with God. All Joseph did was throw some large words around it and make it more emotional. Trust in Jesus. Trials build our trust in Him, we grow in Him so when those things do happen, we aren't moved and we are supported. God doesn't always give us the power to remove the trials, but HE give sus the power to remain in them sustained- because we believe and are continually doing as Peter said- which is relying on Chrsit unto Salvation, growing in this knowledge of Salvation nad redemption.

[nightlight]

Seems like you are saying that at the very least one needs to have had a baptism of fire and exhibit gifts of the spirit.


Was Joseph not saying this?
The anointing and sealing is to be called, (and then one needs to be) elected, and (finally that election needs to be) made sure.

A type of growing from grace to grace?

He is quoting/ summarizing Peter. 1 Peter “Brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: Peter explains it pretty well. 2 Peter chapter 1. He is talking to those who have been called and elected (believers of Chrsit who were anointed by the Holy Ghost when it fell upon them) He shares how to "confirm" or "Make it sure" meaning live your life in such a way it demonstrates the anointing you've received. Really good chapter.

1 John 2:20~ But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.
1 John 2:27~ But the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.
John 14:26 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.
2 Cor 1:22 21Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us (believers), 22 placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.

Yes I realize what Joseph is referring to. The things that Joseph said about C&E were greatly inspired by his work on the inspired version of the Bible. In fact, I quoted 2 Peter 1:1-11 last week I'm my elders' quorum lesson.

It's more than only being born again, and receiving a baptism of fire.

Joseph Smith said: “Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their election and calling was made sure. … They then would want that more sure word of prophecy, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promise sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble and tribulation.” (Teachings, p. 298.)

“The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.” (D&C 131:5.)

Example in scripture:
Nephi in chapter 10 in the book of Helaman. It is becoming Firstborn, receiving the sealing power.

We have to "become partakers of divine nature"
Screenshot_20230317-160834~2.jpg

Like I said, he was quoting from 2 Peter That whole chapter explains how to partake of Divine nature- It explains exactly what I said. Joseph revealed nothing new. The Book of Mormon revealed nothing new. The Holy Ghost is how one begins to partake and are anointed then they grow up into hte full stature of Christ. THe "sealing" power is a creation of man - it is just when one is aligned with God they do as HE would do- it isn't somethign special- it is becoming ONE with God. All Joseph did was throw some large words around it and make it more emotional. Trust in Jesus. Trials build our trust in Him, we grow in Him so when those things do happen, we aren't moved and we are supported. God doesn't always give us the power to remove the trials, but HE give sus the power to remain in them sustained- because we believe and are continually doing as Peter said- which is relying on Chrsit unto Salvation, growing in this knowledge of Salvation nad redemption.

Do you believe you existed as spirit in heaven before you came to earth and took to the flesh?

[John Tavner]

He is quoting/ summarizing Peter. 1 Peter “Brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: Peter explains it pretty well. 2 Peter chapter 1. He is talking to those who have been called and elected (believers of Chrsit who were anointed by the Holy Ghost when it fell upon them) He shares how to "confirm" or "Make it sure" meaning live your life in such a way it demonstrates the anointing you've received. Really good chapter.

1 John 2:20~ But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.
1 John 2:27~ But the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.
John 14:26 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.
2 Cor 1:22 21Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us (believers), 22 placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.

Yes I realize what Joseph is referring to. The things that Joseph said about C&E were greatly inspired by his work on the inspired version of the Bible. In fact, I quoted 2 Peter 1:1-11 last week I'm my elders' quorum lesson.

It's more than only being born again, and receiving a baptism of fire.

Joseph Smith said: “Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their election and calling was made sure. … They then would want that more sure word of prophecy, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promise sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble and tribulation.” (Teachings, p. 298.)

“The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.” (D&C 131:5.)

Example in scripture:
Nephi in chapter 10 in the book of Helaman. It is becoming Firstborn, receiving the sealing power.

We have to "become partakers of divine nature"
Screenshot_20230317-160834~2.jpg

Like I said, he was quoting from 2 Peter That whole chapter explains how to partake of Divine nature- It explains exactly what I said. Joseph revealed nothing new. The Book of Mormon revealed nothing new. The Holy Ghost is how one begins to partake and are anointed then they grow up into hte full stature of Christ. THe "sealing" power is a creation of man - it is just when one is aligned with God they do as HE would do- it isn't somethign special- it is becoming ONE with God. All Joseph did was throw some large words around it and make it more emotional. Trust in Jesus. Trials build our trust in Him, we grow in Him so when those things do happen, we aren't moved and we are supported. God doesn't always give us the power to remove the trials, but HE give sus the power to remain in them sustained- because we believe and are continually doing as Peter said- which is relying on Chrsit unto Salvation, growing in this knowledge of Salvation nad redemption.

Do you believe you existed as spirit in heaven before you came to earth and took to the flesh?

I don't think it matters - our purpose is what we are to become, not what we were. God told us what we were to become. God told us what we were created to be. God said we were to be formed in is image. To manifest Him. Jesus said "follow me" to show we are to live a life like Him. To put that in perspective, if I were to define myself by my past, I would be damned for eternity. Our past does not and should not define us ever- God transforms us- I cant live my life as if I "was with God and now I'm not" I need to live my life as "I am with God because He sent His Spirit upon me and anointed me to bear His name and I am His child adopted through the blood of Jesus." That said according to scripture God knew us before we were placed in the womb- that means we existed before we were conceived.

Jeremiah 1:5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.
Compare that with Matt 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
We can not live by what we were, but who we are to be and who God says we are to be.

He came to redeem us (restore us) So, we must be "Born again" My new Identity is in and through Christ. He has told me what I am and what I am to be. The past doesn't matter- it doesn't define me, who God says I am and what Christ says I am defines me and where I am going and I am to take to the Spirit

[nightlight]

Like I said, he was quoting from 2 Peter That whole chapter explains how to partake of Divine nature- It explains exactly what I said. Joseph revealed nothing new. The Book of Mormon revealed nothing new. The Holy Ghost is how one begins to partake and are anointed then they grow up into hte full stature of Christ. THe "sealing" power is a creation of man - it is just when one is aligned with God they do as HE would do- it isn't somethign special- it is becoming ONE with God. All Joseph did was throw some large words around it and make it more emotional. Trust in Jesus. Trials build our trust in Him, we grow in Him so when those things do happen, we aren't moved and we are supported. God doesn't always give us the power to remove the trials, but HE give sus the power to remain in them sustained- because we believe and are continually doing as Peter said- which is relying on Chrsit unto Salvation, growing in this knowledge of Salvation nad redemption.

Do you believe you existed as spirit in heaven before you came to earth and took to the flesh?

I don't think it matters - our purpose is what we are to become, not what we were. God told us what we were to become. God told us what we were created to be. God said we were to be formed in is image. To manifest Him. Jesus said "follow me" to show we are to live a life like Him. To put that in perspective, if I were to define myself by my past, I would be damned for eternity. Our past does not and should not define us ever- God transforms us- I cant live my life as if I "was with God and now I'm not" I need to live my life as "I am with God because He sent His Spirit upon me and anointed me to bear His name and I am His child adopted through the blood of Jesus." That said according to scripture God knew us before we were placed in the womb- that means we existed before we were conceived.

Jeremiah 1:5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.
Compare that with Matt 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
We can not live by what we were, but who we are to be and who God says we are to be.

He came to redeem us (restore us) So, we must be "Born again" My new Identity is in and through Christ. He has told me what I am and what I am to be. The past doesn't matter- it doesn't define me, who God says I am and what Christ says I am defines me and where I am going and I am to take to the Spirit

It matters. God wouldn't show His children how long they've been with Him if it didn't matter. It's something you have to experience to understand.

Do you believe this land was set apart, as the Book of Mormon claims ?

[ransomme]

He is quoting/ summarizing Peter. 1 Peter “Brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: Peter explains it pretty well. 2 Peter chapter 1. He is talking to those who have been called and elected (believers of Chrsit who were anointed by the Holy Ghost when it fell upon them) He shares how to "confirm" or "Make it sure" meaning live your life in such a way it demonstrates the anointing you've received. Really good chapter.

1 John 2:20~ But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.
1 John 2:27~ But the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.
John 14:26 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.
2 Cor 1:22 21Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us (believers), 22 placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.

Yes I realize what Joseph is referring to. The things that Joseph said about C&E were greatly inspired by his work on the inspired version of the Bible. In fact, I quoted 2 Peter 1:1-11 last week I'm my elders' quorum lesson.

It's more than only being born again, and receiving a baptism of fire.

Joseph Smith said: “Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their election and calling was made sure. … They then would want that more sure word of prophecy, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promise sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble and tribulation.” (Teachings, p. 298.)

“The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.” (D&C 131:5.)

Example in scripture:
Nephi in chapter 10 in the book of Helaman. It is becoming Firstborn, receiving the sealing power.

We have to "become partakers of divine nature"
Screenshot_20230317-160834~2.jpg

Like I said, he was quoting from 2 Peter That whole chapter explains how to partake of Divine nature- It explains exactly what I said. Joseph revealed nothing new. The Book of Mormon revealed nothing new. The Holy Ghost is how one begins to partake and are anointed then they grow up into hte full stature of Christ. THe "sealing" power is a creation of man - it is just when one is aligned with God they do as HE would do- it isn't somethign special- it is becoming ONE with God. All Joseph did was throw some large words around it and make it more emotional. Trust in Jesus. Trials build our trust in Him, we grow in Him so when those things do happen, we aren't moved and we are supported. God doesn't always give us the power to remove the trials, but HE give sus the power to remain in them sustained- because we believe and are continually doing as Peter said- which is relying on Chrsit unto Salvation, growing in this knowledge of Salvation nad redemption.

Go back to the beginning, you are more or less saying what I already had hinted at. I merely put this out in question form for expediency (I was on my phone at work) and to give food for thought.

Was Joseph not saying this?
The anointing and sealing is to be called, (and then one needs to be) elected, and (finally that election needs to be) made sure.

A type of growing from grace to grace?

If you are referring to what the modern CoJCoLDS calls the sealing power then I agree. But it is more than just being aligned with God's will. It is God sharing His authority with someone because He has become one with God to a degree that God may entrust them with such honor. It is having one's calling and election made sure. At that point, the only other path is to become a son of Perdition. That is to become Firstborn, a member of the Church of the Firstborn, Zion.

Halaman 10:3-10
3 ...a voice came unto him saying:
4 Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done; for I have beheld how thou hast with unwearyingness declared the word, which I have given unto thee, unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life, but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments.
5 And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.
6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.
7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.
8 And thus, if ye shall say unto this temple it shall be rent in twain, it shall be done.
9 And if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done.
10 And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass.

THe "sealing" power is a creation of man - it is just when one is aligned with God they do as HE would do- it isn't somethign special- it is becoming ONE with God.

The Lord says in a different way, the same thing as Peter:
D&C 58 (2 Peter 1:1-11)
26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.

[Light Seeker]

Jesus Christ, the Messiah is the anointed One.

Others may include Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham.

It’s a pretty big stretch to think any one else is “the Lord’s Annointed”

C'mon.... Gong is right up there on that list...

[Light Seeker]

[/quote]
Allison, you just reminded me of the Incredibles. The villain wanted to make everyone an Incredible and therefore no one would be incredible. (except you're not a villain, lol)

Sidenote to Allison: Dave Weiss is going on the Kate Dalley show this week.
[/quote]

An equivalent participation trophy for everyone that causes us to not be able to question our leaders....

[Dusty Wanderer]

Another vote here for a much broader meaning for being anointed. But only in the sense that a fetus in the womb is no less a baby than it is when finally born.

I find it interesting that the Old Testament, particularly Leviticus, makes a distinction between being a priest and being anointed (eg. Lev. 4:16).

In other places it is simply used as chosen (eg. Lev. 7:36) and others as sanctified. I like the language of D&C 121 in speaking about being chosen, “distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.”

Isa. 61

1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Acts 4

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Then there’s the imagery of being healed through anointment. Having one’s blind eyes anointed and then being able to see. (cf. John 9:6-11)

In the Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer, all those present were referred to as “thine anointed ones”. (cf. D&C 109:80) Earlier in the prayer, "that they may grow up in thee, and receive a fulness of the Holy Ghost".

Going back to my first statement, it seems like in the broadest sense, the Lord’s anointed may simply be those who have entered into the gospel covenant through baptism.

It has been noted above (Allison) that it could mean all temple endowed, which I agree with in the sense that the endowment rite is symbolic of things realized literally through living the doctrine of Christ. Endowed with power from on high - receiving the First Comforter line upon line until one beholds the face of the Second.

Seems like you are saying that at the very least one needs to have had a baptism of fire and exhibit gifts of the spirit.

Yes, essentially.

“The anointing and sealing is to be called, elected, and made sure.” Joseph Smith, Jr.

Was Joseph not saying this?
The anointing and sealing is to be called, (and then one needs to be) elected, and (finally that election needs to be) made sure.

A type of growing from grace to grace?

Yeah, along these lines.

I guess I'm saying that I see it as a state, rather than passing a checkpoint. Certain fruits are exhibited by those that have been anointed, or are in this state, and some of those fruits are only given according to your calling (eg. seer). And that you don't need an election made sure to be anointed, but you do need to be on the path and heading in that direction.

I think one of the reasons we should exercise caution in how we speak and treat those that exhibit the fruit of anointing is that perhaps the thing we're mocking or disregarding may be from the Master Himself.

[John Tavner]

Do you believe you existed as spirit in heaven before you came to earth and took to the flesh?

I don't think it matters - our purpose is what we are to become, not what we were. God told us what we were to become. God told us what we were created to be. God said we were to be formed in is image. To manifest Him. Jesus said "follow me" to show we are to live a life like Him. To put that in perspective, if I were to define myself by my past, I would be damned for eternity. Our past does not and should not define us ever- God transforms us- I cant live my life as if I "was with God and now I'm not" I need to live my life as "I am with God because He sent His Spirit upon me and anointed me to bear His name and I am His child adopted through the blood of Jesus." That said according to scripture God knew us before we were placed in the womb- that means we existed before we were conceived.

Jeremiah 1:5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.
Compare that with Matt 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
We can not live by what we were, but who we are to be and who God says we are to be.

He came to redeem us (restore us) So, we must be "Born again" My new Identity is in and through Christ. He has told me what I am and what I am to be. The past doesn't matter- it doesn't define me, who God says I am and what Christ says I am defines me and where I am going and I am to take to the Spirit

It matters. God wouldn't show His children how long they've been with Him if it didn't matter. It's something you have to experience to understand.

Do you believe this land was set apart, as the Book of Mormon claims ?

Tell me how it matters and changes your life? What is the difference between my understanding and how does knowing what you say matters change what a person must do now, what faith they must have now? Does it matter if you have all the knowledge of all mysteries but don't know God- you haven't put on His image and let Him transform you? (see 1 Cor 13 for the answer)

[John Tavner]

Do you believe you existed as spirit in heaven before you came to earth and took to the flesh?

I don't think it matters - our purpose is what we are to become, not what we were. God told us what we were to become. God told us what we were created to be. God said we were to be formed in is image. To manifest Him. Jesus said "follow me" to show we are to live a life like Him. To put that in perspective, if I were to define myself by my past, I would be damned for eternity. Our past does not and should not define us ever- God transforms us- I cant live my life as if I "was with God and now I'm not" I need to live my life as "I am with God because He sent His Spirit upon me and anointed me to bear His name and I am His child adopted through the blood of Jesus." That said according to scripture God knew us before we were placed in the womb- that means we existed before we were conceived.

Jeremiah 1:5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.
Compare that with Matt 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
We can not live by what we were, but who we are to be and who God says we are to be.

He came to redeem us (restore us) So, we must be "Born again" My new Identity is in and through Christ. He has told me what I am and what I am to be. The past doesn't matter- it doesn't define me, who God says I am and what Christ says I am defines me and where I am going and I am to take to the Spirit

It matters. God wouldn't show His children how long they've been with Him if it didn't matter. It's something you have to experience to understand.

Do you believe this land was set apart, as the Book of Mormon claims ?

Do you believe this land was set apart, as the Book of Mormon claims ?

Again, that doesn't matter if we don't realize we are set apart and live that way. The Jews had the same problem "this is the holy land, God gave it to us etc etc.." Did that help them when they couldn't understand that God set them apart? They are supposed to sanctify the land, not the other way around.

[John Tavner]

Yes I realize what Joseph is referring to. The things that Joseph said about C&E were greatly inspired by his work on the inspired version of the Bible. In fact, I quoted 2 Peter 1:1-11 last week I'm my elders' quorum lesson.

It's more than only being born again, and receiving a baptism of fire.

Joseph Smith said: “Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their election and calling was made sure. … They then would want that more sure word of prophecy, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promise sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble and tribulation.” (Teachings, p. 298.)

“The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.” (D&C 131:5.)

Example in scripture:
Nephi in chapter 10 in the book of Helaman. It is becoming Firstborn, receiving the sealing power.

We have to "become partakers of divine nature"
Screenshot_20230317-160834~2.jpg

Like I said, he was quoting from 2 Peter That whole chapter explains how to partake of Divine nature- It explains exactly what I said. Joseph revealed nothing new. The Book of Mormon revealed nothing new. The Holy Ghost is how one begins to partake and are anointed then they grow up into hte full stature of Christ. THe "sealing" power is a creation of man - it is just when one is aligned with God they do as HE would do- it isn't somethign special- it is becoming ONE with God. All Joseph did was throw some large words around it and make it more emotional. Trust in Jesus. Trials build our trust in Him, we grow in Him so when those things do happen, we aren't moved and we are supported. God doesn't always give us the power to remove the trials, but HE give sus the power to remain in them sustained- because we believe and are continually doing as Peter said- which is relying on Chrsit unto Salvation, growing in this knowledge of Salvation nad redemption.

Go back to the beginning, you are more or less saying what I already had hinted at. I merely put this out in question form for expediency (I was on my phone at work) and to give food for thought.

Was Joseph not saying this?
The anointing and sealing is to be called, (and then one needs to be) elected, and (finally that election needs to be) made sure.

A type of growing from grace to grace?

If you are referring to what the modern CoJCoLDS calls the sealing power then I agree. But it is more than just being aligned with God's will. It is God sharing His authority with someone because He has become one with God to a degree that God may entrust them with such honor. It is having one's calling and election made sure. At that point, the only other path is to become a son of Perdition. That is to become Firstborn, a member of the Church of the Firstborn, Zion.

Halaman 10:3-10
3 ...a voice came unto him saying:
4 Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done; for I have beheld how thou hast with unwearyingness declared the word, which I have given unto thee, unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life, but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments.
5 And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.
6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.
7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.
8 And thus, if ye shall say unto this temple it shall be rent in twain, it shall be done.
9 And if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done.
10 And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass.

THe "sealing" power is a creation of man - it is just when one is aligned with God they do as HE would do- it isn't somethign special- it is becoming ONE with God.

The Lord says in a different way, the same thing as Peter:
D&C 58 (2 Peter 1:1-11)
26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.

It's always good to think!

D&C 58 if it can be believed is simply this," you can't do things to please the Lord, you have to become what He has declared you already are, through His Son, and then He is pleased"

Furthermore, Hel 10 the part everyone focuses on is talking more about faith, rather than becoming one with God- God says He will give Him faith to do those things. What God says to him before and the why is that sought the Lord's will and kept His commandments and He did it not because it was a burden, but because He wanted to, I'm not a big fan of how that is written out (in the scripture because people think it was because He declared the word without being weary, but that isn't hte reason). So Nephi is given faith, and God knows that He will "seek His will and Keep His commandments"

God isn't "entrusting" anyone with the "honor" it is that we are living up to that which God desired for us in the beginning. God doesn't need to "learn how to trust us" He knows our hearts, He knows what we are going to do. Nephi just did what Peter said.
We get too caught up in the experience and think the experience is what "makes a person" It isn't the experience it is the perspective and submission to God- His grace does that to us so we have the Image of God. All that Christ did is what God wants us to do- the way He lived His life is what GOd wants us to do. To bear our cross, to deny ourselves, to take no account for suffered wrongs, to love people and bless them. God already declared His sermon through His Son which was "follow me" and "the things ye have seen me do ye shall do also." What we lack is faith and that is because we rarely commune with God and let HIm transform us- the world speaks louder than truth and most of our perceptions in life are determined by the world and not the Word of God.

Another Edit: In short the "authority" is from our relationship with God - it jsut means we know HIm and trust Him and have let Him work in us. It isn't a moment in time - in order to develop relationship with God you don't "seek after sealing power" you seek after God. When you know Him more (God is love and we can not say we know Him if we hate our brother, because if we do we are a liar - 1 John) then you trust more, you grow in faith, you become love you manifest Christ because you are the light of hte world as He told us to be. Anointing is receiving the HOly Ghost. It is that simple. Once we receive we are to continue to grow up into Him, into the full stature of Christ- the full measure and know His love which surpasses all understanding. The anointing is what allows you to even get there. It is God changing you and saying " now grow up into what I've anointed you to be, a Christ-like one, for that is my image"

I guess part of my thing is (and I"m not saying this because you are doing it) but we spend so much time seeking after signs and wonders that we are missing the point- which is to become like The Lord, through submission and yielding, denying ourselves, picking up our cross daily and following Him i.e becoming the manifesation of God in the flesh i.e. Love- and not as the world defines it, but God, so that way we become living epistles of God in the flesh to glorify Him and manifest His love to others so they too can know God.

[InfoWarrior82]

Many are called but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

Answer that question, and you have the answer to the O.P.

[nightlight]

I don't think it matters - our purpose is what we are to become, not what we were. God told us what we were to become. God told us what we were created to be. God said we were to be formed in is image. To manifest Him. Jesus said "follow me" to show we are to live a life like Him. To put that in perspective, if I were to define myself by my past, I would be damned for eternity. Our past does not and should not define us ever- God transforms us- I cant live my life as if I "was with God and now I'm not" I need to live my life as "I am with God because He sent His Spirit upon me and anointed me to bear His name and I am His child adopted through the blood of Jesus." That said according to scripture God knew us before we were placed in the womb- that means we existed before we were conceived.

Jeremiah 1:5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.
Compare that with Matt 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
We can not live by what we were, but who we are to be and who God says we are to be.

He came to redeem us (restore us) So, we must be "Born again" My new Identity is in and through Christ. He has told me what I am and what I am to be. The past doesn't matter- it doesn't define me, who God says I am and what Christ says I am defines me and where I am going and I am to take to the Spirit

It matters. God wouldn't show His children how long they've been with Him if it didn't matter. It's something you have to experience to understand.

Do you believe this land was set apart, as the Book of Mormon claims ?

Tell me how it matters and changes your life? What is the difference between my understanding and how does knowing what you say matters change what a person must do now, what faith they must have now? Does it matter if you have all the knowledge of all mysteries but don't know God- you haven't put on His image and let Him transform you? (see 1 Cor 13 for the answer)

Nothing matters if you don't know God....
That argument is not relevant to what I'm saying.
It's dishonest to turn it into that

It matters because God wouldn't show people otherwise. He showed me while I was a kid. It remains one of the greatest experience I've ever had. It is a pillar in my life.

And I'm not alone in being shown these amazing truths

What you're saying is juvenile and silly to anyone who has been blessed to know about our time with God before the Veil

It may not matter to you.... But to say it doesn't matter to God or His children is just a simple retardation and handicap of your mind

I know I was sentient being in the beginning with God. This gave me strength to view myself as God views me (with Love and not hate).

The truth matters , John

[nightlight]

I don't think it matters - our purpose is what we are to become, not what we were. God told us what we were to become. God told us what we were created to be. God said we were to be formed in is image. To manifest Him. Jesus said "follow me" to show we are to live a life like Him. To put that in perspective, if I were to define myself by my past, I would be damned for eternity. Our past does not and should not define us ever- God transforms us- I cant live my life as if I "was with God and now I'm not" I need to live my life as "I am with God because He sent His Spirit upon me and anointed me to bear His name and I am His child adopted through the blood of Jesus." That said according to scripture God knew us before we were placed in the womb- that means we existed before we were conceived.

Jeremiah 1:5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.
Compare that with Matt 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
We can not live by what we were, but who we are to be and who God says we are to be.

He came to redeem us (restore us) So, we must be "Born again" My new Identity is in and through Christ. He has told me what I am and what I am to be. The past doesn't matter- it doesn't define me, who God says I am and what Christ says I am defines me and where I am going and I am to take to the Spirit

It matters. God wouldn't show His children how long they've been with Him if it didn't matter. It's something you have to experience to understand.

Do you believe this land was set apart, as the Book of Mormon claims ?

Do you believe this land was set apart, as the Book of Mormon claims ?

Again, that doesn't matter if we don't realize we are set apart and live that way. The Jews had the same problem "this is the holy land, God gave it to us etc etc.." Did that help them when they couldn't understand that God set them apart? They are supposed to sanctify the land, not the other way around.

Again

You're changing the argument.

Obviously it doesn't matter if we don't do what the Lord says.

It is so dishonest to this discussion

If it didn't matter why would God waste so much of His time telling us these things?

Or is it that you just don't believe in these things, John?

[Centerline]

It seems like you are asking if the church’s ordained Apostles, who claim to be the “Lord’s anointed”, and participate in a “secret sacred ritual”, really have the power and authority they claim, and if they do have that power and authority how can people know it to be true.

For me personally, I know some things to be true through personal revelation, many other things I have received and accept to be true only by the testimony of others.

I have heard many people testify the church’s Apostles have the power and authority they claim.

What do you believe?

[John Tavner]

It matters. God wouldn't show His children how long they've been with Him if it didn't matter. It's something you have to experience to understand.

Do you believe this land was set apart, as the Book of Mormon claims ?

Tell me how it matters and changes your life? What is the difference between my understanding and how does knowing what you say matters change what a person must do now, what faith they must have now? Does it matter if you have all the knowledge of all mysteries but don't know God- you haven't put on His image and let Him transform you? (see 1 Cor 13 for the answer)

Nothing matters if you don't know God....
That argument is not relevant to what I'm saying.
It's dishonest to turn it into that

It matters because God wouldn't show people otherwise. He showed me while I was a kid. It remains one of the greatest experience I've ever had. It is a pillar in my life.

And I'm not alone in being shown these amazing truths

What you're saying is juvenile and silly to anyone who has been blessed to know about our time with God before the Veil

It may not matter to you.... But to say it doesn't matter to God or His children is just a simple retardation and handicap of your mind

I know I was sentient being in the beginning with God. This gave me strength to view myself as God views me (with Love and not hate).

The truth matters , John

Absolutely truth matters, but the truth is you believing what Jesus says about you, not a vision that may or may not be true (in regards to its truth, not that you did have it). Jesus said the same thing that you are worth something. The vision matters to you because it is personal to you, not because that truth makes you live like Jesus. If you believe God and who He says now, it doesn't matter- especially if you don't live up to what He said you are and were.

It's juvenile to call it juvenile and silly to call it silly. Your time before the veil means absolutely nothing to you living your life in Jesus Christ right now. If your identity is in who you were before and not in Who CHrist says you are now, then you are on shaky foundation- becaues your past can't and shouldn't define you, it is CHrist you defines you here and now and through His blood.

[John Tavner]

It matters. God wouldn't show His children how long they've been with Him if it didn't matter. It's something you have to experience to understand.

Do you believe this land was set apart, as the Book of Mormon claims ?

Do you believe this land was set apart, as the Book of Mormon claims ?

Again, that doesn't matter if we don't realize we are set apart and live that way. The Jews had the same problem "this is the holy land, God gave it to us etc etc.." Did that help them when they couldn't understand that God set them apart? They are supposed to sanctify the land, not the other way around.

Again

You're changing the argument.

Obviously it doesn't matter if we don't do what the Lord says.

It is so dishonest to this discussion

If it didn't matter why would God waste so much of His time telling us these things?

Or is it that you just don't believe in these things, John?

I'm not changing the argument. It has nothing to do with the conversation as far as I'm aware. That question came out of left field. I'm saying we waste time on things that don't cause us to live up to who we are called to be here and now through the Blood of Jesus.

It isn't dishonest, you just don't like it. It's dishonest to call things dishonest when they aren't- unless you just don't see.

God often doesn't tell us things- the devil offers a lot of visions and a lot of dreams, but we take anything supernatural that appears good and call it God, disregarding whether or not it is Good. Too often we embrace something because "it seems right to a man" even though that process leads to death. Does it transform you more into His image? Does it manifest the glory of God? Has the knowledge you've received caused you to look more like God and love as He loves? Does it demonstrate His mercy towards others? Forgiveness? Increase self-control? Live more peaceful? Godly? Does the Joy Of HIs salvation increase within you? Do you see that joy for others? Or does that knowledge puff you up? Does it create jealousy? Divisions? False humility? "I wish I had been a special one before this life" or "I must be a special one, all these other fools just don't know they can't be great like me." Rivalries? Factions?

If you can't believe the word about what God says about you now- your past is pointless. It is what God says through His Son that matters. It is the life lived in Him that matters. We get caught up in all this "need" for "special knowledge" when we don't even live the life God told us to live. It can distract from Who Christ said He is in us and through us and who we are to be NOW through Him. Whether the land is sanctified or not does not impact me- I'll tell you why. Because I am sanctified by the Holy Spirit. God has given me dominion over the earth. God has given me His anointing through His Holy Spirit - not because i"m "special" but because I believe and accept His mercy and love. I've learned to trust His word. The Holy Spirit changes things into life. So in turn, I in the name of the Lord sanctify the earth and the land I"m on- setting it apart for His glory. If God tells me to go somewhere else, I will, but for now, this land, where I'm at is sanctified, I don't need a book to tell me it has been set apart and when I leave I will bless it for those that follow. What I have is the promise of God who through the Spirit said Do you not know that you are temple of God because the Spirit dwells in you? I have the promise of eternal life, and I continue to yield to Him to be formed in His image. Put another way, the point of life is not to know that you "lived before" it is to become like Christ. We shouldn't be like Lot's wife. Sure the information is useful and can build on the purpose that God has for you, but it isn't the point. Again knowing you lived before does not help you live now - It is why Christ IS THE LIFE. Not your past. He IS the Way, and He is the Truth. There are people on this forum who claim magnificent visions, but still live in depression and fear- Their knowledge has not helped "save" them- whether it is true or not, they struggle with even forgiving their neighbor, they laugh when people have different views than them and mock them- they attack and claim everything they do is by the "holy Spirit" but nitpick every little thing someone does... actually following htem around for a few days cause they want to "put them in their place" because "they ahve been abused" and still identify as having been abused rather than identify as a Son or daughter of God who can be healed and not live abused.

Put another way- how many mormons have been taught they lived with God beforehand, but how many of them live as if they are with God now with His Spirit with them? Most of them beat themselves up and can't even grasp the loving kindness of our Father. That knowledge did little for them.. in fact for many int condemns them. They feel as if they can't ever "live" up to what they need to in order to "make it back" to God (already twisted because they think they have to do something rather than trust in Jesus and see themselves how HE sees them). They have such a twisted view on things for all the knowledge they have and all they do is condemn themselves and get high on opioids and other drugs for depression and attend temples HOPING that somehow their works will save them all the while in their souls they feel something is empty and off and they continue to live in distraction never able to quench the worm that is in their soul because they don't know where to find "THE TRUTH" in Christ.

Psalm 24: 3Who may ascend the hill of the LORD? Who may stand in His holy place? 4He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to an idol or swear deceitfully. 5He will receive blessing from the LORD and vindication from the God of his salvation.

[FrankOne]

The Holy Spirit anoints those who are chosen.
How do we know if someone is....?

By their fruits we know

It's silly to put a limit on how many or who can be these anointed. It's also silly to think a man is anointed just because of his office



“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”
--------
Isaiah 61:1 - The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
-----------

2 Corinthians 1:21 - Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
-----------
John 2
“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

There is a limit, 144k! #theJW'swereright

I know 144k is not a specific number, but it's they who have their anointings sealed so to speak. Firstborn.

Funny how I never really contemplated this before now. Man the precepts run deep and strong

yes, now contemplating this , it does become an interesting topic.

off the cuff, barring any sort of official definition, my mind goes to this:

Someone that is anointed has reached a level that can never be undone. A sort of benchmark which was likely attained from a previous existence in most cases. This level cannot be 'granted' but it is a level attained through personal spiritual growth.

Sorry to go to the 'previous existence' idea, but I have found so very very few men in my life that change much during the course of their life. From observation, we typically are who we are for our lives, perhaps growing , in some cases , a few grades at most in a lifetime. Kindergarten-> PHD.

ie, Self-deceiving liars in their youth, invariably continue that pattern although, in adulthood, they create a good mask to wear in order to achieve their desires.

[FrankOne]

Many are called but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

Answer that question, and you have the answer to the O.P.

if you don't mind, I'd like a try at that.

perhaps, they are not chosen because they are not ready to accept it ....yet.

it's just a matter of time. all of it. God created this situation for all to go home.... in ... time... 100 yrs or a billion, it's up to us.

[nightlight]

Again, that doesn't matter if we don't realize we are set apart and live that way. The Jews had the same problem "this is the holy land, God gave it to us etc etc.." Did that help them when they couldn't understand that God set them apart? They are supposed to sanctify the land, not the other way around.

Again

You're changing the argument.

Obviously it doesn't matter if we don't do what the Lord says.

It is so dishonest to this discussion

If it didn't matter why would God waste so much of His time telling us these things?

Or is it that you just don't believe in these things, John?

I'm not changing the argument. It has nothing to do with the conversation as far as I'm aware. That question came out of left field. I'm saying we waste time on things that don't cause us to live up to who we are called to be here and now through the Blood of Jesus.

It isn't dishonest, you just don't like it. It's dishonest to call things dishonest when they aren't- unless you just don't see.

God often doesn't tell us things- the devil offers a lot of visions and a lot of dreams, but we take anything supernatural that appears good and call it God, disregarding whether or not it is Good. Too often we embrace something because "it seems right to a man" even though that process leads to death. Does it transform you more into His image? Does it manifest the glory of God? Has the knowledge you've received caused you to look more like God and love as He loves? Does it demonstrate His mercy towards others? Forgiveness? Increase self-control? Live more peaceful? Godly? Does the Joy Of HIs salvation increase within you? Do you see that joy for others? Or does that knowledge puff you up? Does it create jealousy? Divisions? False humility? "I wish I had been a special one before this life" or "I must be a special one, all these other fools just don't know they can't be great like me." Rivalries? Factions?

If you can't believe the word about what God says about you now- your past is pointless. It is what God says through His Son that matters. It is the life lived in Him that matters. We get caught up in all this "need" for "special knowledge" when we don't even live the life God told us to live. It can distract from Who Christ said He is in us and through us and who we are to be NOW through Him. Whether the land is sanctified or not does not impact me- I'll tell you why. Because I am sanctified by the Holy Spirit. God has given me dominion over the earth. God has given me His anointing through His Holy Spirit - not because i"m "special" but because I believe and accept His mercy and love. I've learned to trust His word. The Holy Spirit changes things into life. So in turn, I in the name of the Lord sanctify the earth and the land I"m on- setting it apart for His glory. If God tells me to go somewhere else, I will, but for now, this land, where I'm at is sanctified, I don't need a book to tell me it has been set apart and when I leave I will bless it for those that follow. What I have is the promise of God who through the Spirit said Do you not know that you are temple of God because the Spirit dwells in you? I have the promise of eternal life, and I continue to yield to Him to be formed in His image. Put another way, the point of life is not to know that you "lived before" it is to become like Christ. We shouldn't be like Lot's wife. Sure the information is useful and can build on the purpose that God has for you, but it isn't the point. Again knowing you lived before does not help you live now - It is why Christ IS THE LIFE. Not your past. He IS the Way, and He is the Truth. There are people on this forum who claim magnificent visions, but still live in depression and fear- Their knowledge has not helped "save" them- whether it is true or not, they struggle with even forgiving their neighbor, they laugh when people have different views than them and mock them- they attack and claim everything they do is by the "holy Spirit" but nitpick every little thing someone does... actually following htem around for a few days cause they want to "put them in their place" because "they ahve been abused" and still identify as having been abused rather than identify as a Son or daughter of God who can be healed and not live abused.

Put another way- how many mormons have been taught they lived with God beforehand, but how many of them live as if they are with God now with His Spirit with them? Most of them beat themselves up and can't even grasp the loving kindness of our Father. That knowledge did little for them.. in fact for many int condemns them. They feel as if they can't ever "live" up to what they need to in order to "make it back" to God (already twisted because they think they have to do something rather than trust in Jesus and see themselves how HE sees them). They have such a twisted view on things for all the knowledge they have and all they do is condemn themselves and get high on opioids and other drugs for depression and attend temples HOPING that somehow their works will save them all the while in their souls they feel something is empty and off and they continue to live in distraction never able to quench the worm that is in their soul because they don't know where to find "THE TRUTH" in Christ.

Psalm 24: 3Who may ascend the hill of the LORD? Who may stand in His holy place? 4He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to an idol or swear deceitfully. 5He will receive blessing from the LORD and vindication from the God of his salvation.

Lol do you not see the irony of your post?

The Book of Mormon clearly/consistently teaches this because God wants us to know this

Yet you say it doesn't matter

It doesn't matter to you because you do not believe in the Book of Mormon

And my point of all this is you said the Book of Mormon did not bring anything new
It is a false statement. You may be sincere, but your unbelief blinds you and makes teach false doctrine

You claim how you let God mold you in His image, that you're this... and that.

But Jesus Christ would offend you

You graft pacifism into God because you cannot accept who God is.

God does things that you call evil. This is why you doubt the BoM

And if you sit here and tell everybody how God is.

Why should anyone who knows the truth of the BoM listen to your opinion on it?

[Rumpelstiltskin]

So, what does it take to be the Lord's anointed?

So Church Apostles do a secret sacred ritual to claim this? How are people to know?

In the scriptures not many were anointed, and they were mostly kings, high priests, etc.

I think to actually and truly be one of the Lord's anointed, one needs to actually have become a king or queen, attained that level of spirituality.

Unless they possess a Urim and Thummim and it is common knowledge that they possess it, none of the Q15 are not seers.

13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.
14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.
15 And the king said that a seer is greater than a prophet.
16 And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God.
17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.
(Mosiah 8:13–17)

[John Tavner]

Again

You're changing the argument.

Obviously it doesn't matter if we don't do what the Lord says.

It is so dishonest to this discussion

If it didn't matter why would God waste so much of His time telling us these things?

Or is it that you just don't believe in these things, John?

I'm not changing the argument. It has nothing to do with the conversation as far as I'm aware. That question came out of left field. I'm saying we waste time on things that don't cause us to live up to who we are called to be here and now through the Blood of Jesus.

It isn't dishonest, you just don't like it. It's dishonest to call things dishonest when they aren't- unless you just don't see.

God often doesn't tell us things- the devil offers a lot of visions and a lot of dreams, but we take anything supernatural that appears good and call it God, disregarding whether or not it is Good. Too often we embrace something because "it seems right to a man" even though that process leads to death. Does it transform you more into His image? Does it manifest the glory of God? Has the knowledge you've received caused you to look more like God and love as He loves? Does it demonstrate His mercy towards others? Forgiveness? Increase self-control? Live more peaceful? Godly? Does the Joy Of HIs salvation increase within you? Do you see that joy for others? Or does that knowledge puff you up? Does it create jealousy? Divisions? False humility? "I wish I had been a special one before this life" or "I must be a special one, all these other fools just don't know they can't be great like me." Rivalries? Factions?

If you can't believe the word about what God says about you now- your past is pointless. It is what God says through His Son that matters. It is the life lived in Him that matters. We get caught up in all this "need" for "special knowledge" when we don't even live the life God told us to live. It can distract from Who Christ said He is in us and through us and who we are to be NOW through Him. Whether the land is sanctified or not does not impact me- I'll tell you why. Because I am sanctified by the Holy Spirit. God has given me dominion over the earth. God has given me His anointing through His Holy Spirit - not because i"m "special" but because I believe and accept His mercy and love. I've learned to trust His word. The Holy Spirit changes things into life. So in turn, I in the name of the Lord sanctify the earth and the land I"m on- setting it apart for His glory. If God tells me to go somewhere else, I will, but for now, this land, where I'm at is sanctified, I don't need a book to tell me it has been set apart and when I leave I will bless it for those that follow. What I have is the promise of God who through the Spirit said Do you not know that you are temple of God because the Spirit dwells in you? I have the promise of eternal life, and I continue to yield to Him to be formed in His image. Put another way, the point of life is not to know that you "lived before" it is to become like Christ. We shouldn't be like Lot's wife. Sure the information is useful and can build on the purpose that God has for you, but it isn't the point. Again knowing you lived before does not help you live now - It is why Christ IS THE LIFE. Not your past. He IS the Way, and He is the Truth. There are people on this forum who claim magnificent visions, but still live in depression and fear- Their knowledge has not helped "save" them- whether it is true or not, they struggle with even forgiving their neighbor, they laugh when people have different views than them and mock them- they attack and claim everything they do is by the "holy Spirit" but nitpick every little thing someone does... actually following htem around for a few days cause they want to "put them in their place" because "they ahve been abused" and still identify as having been abused rather than identify as a Son or daughter of God who can be healed and not live abused.

Put another way- how many mormons have been taught they lived with God beforehand, but how many of them live as if they are with God now with His Spirit with them? Most of them beat themselves up and can't even grasp the loving kindness of our Father. That knowledge did little for them.. in fact for many int condemns them. They feel as if they can't ever "live" up to what they need to in order to "make it back" to God (already twisted because they think they have to do something rather than trust in Jesus and see themselves how HE sees them). They have such a twisted view on things for all the knowledge they have and all they do is condemn themselves and get high on opioids and other drugs for depression and attend temples HOPING that somehow their works will save them all the while in their souls they feel something is empty and off and they continue to live in distraction never able to quench the worm that is in their soul because they don't know where to find "THE TRUTH" in Christ.

Psalm 24: 3Who may ascend the hill of the LORD? Who may stand in His holy place? 4He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to an idol or swear deceitfully. 5He will receive blessing from the LORD and vindication from the God of his salvation.

Lol do you not see the irony of your post?

The Book of Mormon clearly/consistently teaches this because God wants us to know this

Yet you say it doesn't matter

It doesn't matter to you because you do not believe in the Book of Mormon

And my point of all this is you said the Book of Mormon did not bring anything new
It is a false statement. You may be sincere, but your unbelief blinds you and makes teach false doctrine

You claim how you let God mold you in His image, that your this... and that.

But Jesus Christ would offend you

You graft pacifism into God because you cannot accept who God is.

God does things that you call evil. This is why you doubt the BoM

And if you sit here and tell everybody how God is.

Why should anyone who knows the truth of the BoM listen to your opinion on it?

All you're doing is making accusations with no actual substance, - not inviting, not even try to show me how I'm scripturally wrong - . If that makes you feel better, then go for it, feel free to continue making your accusations and I sincerely mean that, if you aren't finished, feel free to continue. The fact of the matter is that in the end if you (general) aren't teaching truth and bringing people to Christ by living a life in Him all you're doing is exactly what I'm saying "you have knowledge, but it doesn't make you look like Him." Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. "these are they who wiill say in the last day "Lord Lord have we not done many miracles and wonderful works in your name and the Lord will say "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you." You did a lot of things that looked good but you still didn't know me. LIke JOhn said. He who says He loves God, but hates His brother is a liar. The sad part is here is an example of some of the confusion that book creates, this is from a FB group where people claim to follow the Lord and His Doctrine I quote " I agree I feel nothing from the other scriptures. Too altered" This because of scripture that talks about plain and precious truths being taken out- Only the BoM apparently has truth. This is rampant. This attitude builds up even more so for those that often leave the church - the think everything is wrong so they become agnostic or false atheists.

So for all the "extra" knowledge Mormon's claim to have, they sure live lives in a hellish landscape ... always wondering if they will "measure up" or be "worthy of God's love." Seems their extra "knowledge" isn't helping them at all. They act the same way any non-believer acts- act the same way other non-mormon supposed believers act. I see no difference. You can say I don't know God, by saying I am "offended" but your words don't judge me, God does and I thank God that He is my judge and I am free. You think it is pacifism, I am just believing the words that tell me "not to be angry with my brother" to "turn the other cheek" "if someone sues for you cloak give them you coat also" "if someone compels you to walk a mile witht them, walk with them twain" By their fruits ye shall know them - it's why I pray for them and attend church with them, because I want them to know Jesus and He is amazing an I have seen people repent and receive forgiveness of their sins, being made whole, actually seing who they are in God's sight, without needing to teach them a single thing about their "pre-mortal existence" They just need to know that God made them with purpose and the proof of that is that Christ came and gave His life for them when they didn't even know Him and could not have cared less about God. So, brother, bless you and while I think you're deceived in your perception of God because of the "way that seems right to a man" I believe God will still work in you and continue to transform you into His image as you continue to submit and yield to Him, because that is who God sees in you, is a Son and Son who looks like "THE Son" because of His grace and mercy and His love for you. So have a blessed night. Here are some scripture reasons as to why I believe the way I do. If i take a misstep, I run to God receive His mercy and grow in grace and become more transformed and made more mature in Him.


1 Peter 2: 21For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for you, LEAVING YOU AN EXAMPLE, that YOU SHOULD FOLLOW in His footsteps:

22“He committed no sin,

and NO deceit was found in His mouth.”

23When they heaped abuse on Him,

HE DID NOT RETALIATE;

when He suffered, He made no threats,

but ENTRUSTED HIMSELf TO HIM WHO JUDGES JUSTLY.

24He Himself bore our sins

in His body on the tree,

so that we might DIE TO SIN

and live to righteousness.

“By His stripes you are healed.”i

25For “you were like sheep going astray,”j but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.


I'm looking at the fruits of those who claim to have so much more and calim it is necessary jbknowledge... I guess to salvation or something... The fruits don't look good and we've had almost 200 years. The good fruits I see are those who give their lives to Christ and submit to Him (both in and out of hte church) it isn't fruit of believing the BoM. I see lots of temples and ancestral worship (see 1 Tim 1:3) I see lots of abuse from leadership. I see people who are "doing" things because they are afraid of going to hell. I see the poor and the widowed and orphans abused and their faces ground into the dust. And my heart cries out to God- and still I have hope for them and all men because God has declared hope through His Son and God doesn't change.

1 Cor 8: 2The one who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the one who loves God is known by God.

1 Tim 1: 3As I urged you on my departure to Macedonia, you should stay on at Ephesus to instruct certain men not to teach false doctrines 4or devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculation rather than the stewardship of God’s work, which is by faith. 5The goal of our instruction is the love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and a sincere faith. This is the goal of all instruction. How can you have faith if you're always wondering what God is gonna do- will he won't he. It is why scripture says this is a yes and amen gospel all promises are that way with God (2 cor 1:20) How can I be not conformed to the world if I don't even know who God is because one minute He is killing people and the next saving them, how can I Pray in faith know His will? Romans 12:2 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

As a final point, when Jesus went to the MT. of Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were there - representing hte Law and the PRophets. God the Father said to them and hte Apostles "HEAR HIM" meaning Jesus. All is subject to Him- the true meaning is from Christ and His life of how we are to live. He was the living epistle of God in the flesh. Col 1: 15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. and we are to put on that image Col 3: 9Do not lie to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices, 1and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free, but Christ is all and is in all

God is love 1 John 4
1 Cor 13 if ye have not love ye are nothing (describes love).

[ransomme]

The Holy Spirit anoints those who are chosen.
How do we know if someone is....?

By their fruits we know

It's silly to put a limit on how many or who can be these anointed. It's also silly to think a man is anointed just because of his office



“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”
--------
Isaiah 61:1 - The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
-----------

2 Corinthians 1:21 - Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
-----------
John 2
“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

There is a limit, 144k! #theJW'swereright

I know 144k is not a specific number, but it's they who have their anointings sealed so to speak. Firstborn.

Funny how I never really contemplated this before now. Man the precepts run deep and strong

yes, now contemplating this , it does become an interesting topic.

off the cuff, barring any sort of official definition, my mind goes to this:

Someone that is anointed has reached a level that can never be undone. A sort of benchmark which was likely attained from a previous existence in most cases. This level cannot be 'granted' but it is a level attained through personal spiritual growth.

Sorry to go to the 'previous existence' idea, but I have found so very very few men in my life that change much during the course of their life. From observation, we typically are who we are for our lives, perhaps growing , in some cases , a few grades at most in a lifetime. Kindergarten-> PHD.

ie, Self-deceiving liars in their youth, invariably continue that pattern although, in adulthood, they create a good mask to wear in order to achieve their desires.

Alma 42
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

God has agency too.

[nightlight]

I'm not changing the argument. It has nothing to do with the conversation as far as I'm aware. That question came out of left field. I'm saying we waste time on things that don't cause us to live up to who we are called to be here and now through the Blood of Jesus.

It isn't dishonest, you just don't like it. It's dishonest to call things dishonest when they aren't- unless you just don't see.

God often doesn't tell us things- the devil offers a lot of visions and a lot of dreams, but we take anything supernatural that appears good and call it God, disregarding whether or not it is Good. Too often we embrace something because "it seems right to a man" even though that process leads to death. Does it transform you more into His image? Does it manifest the glory of God? Has the knowledge you've received caused you to look more like God and love as He loves? Does it demonstrate His mercy towards others? Forgiveness? Increase self-control? Live more peaceful? Godly? Does the Joy Of HIs salvation increase within you? Do you see that joy for others? Or does that knowledge puff you up? Does it create jealousy? Divisions? False humility? "I wish I had been a special one before this life" or "I must be a special one, all these other fools just don't know they can't be great like me." Rivalries? Factions?

If you can't believe the word about what God says about you now- your past is pointless. It is what God says through His Son that matters. It is the life lived in Him that matters. We get caught up in all this "need" for "special knowledge" when we don't even live the life God told us to live. It can distract from Who Christ said He is in us and through us and who we are to be NOW through Him. Whether the land is sanctified or not does not impact me- I'll tell you why. Because I am sanctified by the Holy Spirit. God has given me dominion over the earth. God has given me His anointing through His Holy Spirit - not because i"m "special" but because I believe and accept His mercy and love. I've learned to trust His word. The Holy Spirit changes things into life. So in turn, I in the name of the Lord sanctify the earth and the land I"m on- setting it apart for His glory. If God tells me to go somewhere else, I will, but for now, this land, where I'm at is sanctified, I don't need a book to tell me it has been set apart and when I leave I will bless it for those that follow. What I have is the promise of God who through the Spirit said Do you not know that you are temple of God because the Spirit dwells in you? I have the promise of eternal life, and I continue to yield to Him to be formed in His image. Put another way, the point of life is not to know that you "lived before" it is to become like Christ. We shouldn't be like Lot's wife. Sure the information is useful and can build on the purpose that God has for you, but it isn't the point. Again knowing you lived before does not help you live now - It is why Christ IS THE LIFE. Not your past. He IS the Way, and He is the Truth. There are people on this forum who claim magnificent visions, but still live in depression and fear- Their knowledge has not helped "save" them- whether it is true or not, they struggle with even forgiving their neighbor, they laugh when people have different views than them and mock them- they attack and claim everything they do is by the "holy Spirit" but nitpick every little thing someone does... actually following htem around for a few days cause they want to "put them in their place" because "they ahve been abused" and still identify as having been abused rather than identify as a Son or daughter of God who can be healed and not live abused.

Put another way- how many mormons have been taught they lived with God beforehand, but how many of them live as if they are with God now with His Spirit with them? Most of them beat themselves up and can't even grasp the loving kindness of our Father. That knowledge did little for them.. in fact for many int condemns them. They feel as if they can't ever "live" up to what they need to in order to "make it back" to God (already twisted because they think they have to do something rather than trust in Jesus and see themselves how HE sees them). They have such a twisted view on things for all the knowledge they have and all they do is condemn themselves and get high on opioids and other drugs for depression and attend temples HOPING that somehow their works will save them all the while in their souls they feel something is empty and off and they continue to live in distraction never able to quench the worm that is in their soul because they don't know where to find "THE TRUTH" in Christ.

Psalm 24: 3Who may ascend the hill of the LORD? Who may stand in His holy place? 4He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to an idol or swear deceitfully. 5He will receive blessing from the LORD and vindication from the God of his salvation.

Lol do you not see the irony of your post?

The Book of Mormon clearly/consistently teaches this because God wants us to know this

Yet you say it doesn't matter

It doesn't matter to you because you do not believe in the Book of Mormon

And my point of all this is you said the Book of Mormon did not bring anything new
It is a false statement. You may be sincere, but your unbelief blinds you and makes teach false doctrine

You claim how you let God mold you in His image, that your this... and that.

But Jesus Christ would offend you

You graft pacifism into God because you cannot accept who God is.

God does things that you call evil. This is why you doubt the BoM

And if you sit here and tell everybody how God is.

Why should anyone who knows the truth of the BoM listen to your opinion on it?

All you're doing is making accusations with no actual substance, - not inviting, not even try to show me how I'm scripturally wrong - . If that makes you feel better, then go for it, feel free to continue making your accusations and I sincerely mean that, if you aren't finished, feel free to continue. The fact of the matter is that in the end if you (general) aren't teaching truth and bringing people to Christ by living a life in Him all you're doing is exactly what I'm saying "you have knowledge, but it doesn't make you look like Him." Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. "these are they who wiill say in the last day "Lord Lord have we not done many miracles and wonderful works in your name and the Lord will say "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you." You did a lot of things that looked good but you still didn't know me. LIke JOhn said. He who says He loves God, but hates His brother is a liar. The sad part is here is an example of some of the confusion that book creates, this is from a FB group where people claim to follow the Lord and His Doctrine I quote " I agree I feel nothing from the other scriptures. Too altered" This because of scripture that talks about plain and precious truths being taken out- Only the BoM apparently has truth. This is rampant. This attitude builds up even more so for those that often leave the church - the think everything is wrong so they become agnostic or false atheists.

So for all the "extra" knowledge Mormon's claim to have, they sure live lives in a hellish landscape ... always wondering if they will "measure up" or be "worthy of God's love." Seems their extra "knowledge" isn't helping them at all. They act the same way any non-believer acts- act the same way other non-mormon supposed believers act. I see no difference. You can say I don't know God, by saying I am "offended" but your words don't judge me, God does and I thank God that He is my judge and I am free. You think it is pacifism, I am just believing the words that tell me "not to be angry with my brother" to "turn the other cheek" "if someone sues for you cloak give them you coat also" "if someone compels you to walk a mile witht them, walk with them twain" By their fruits ye shall know them - it's why I pray for them and attend church with them, because I want them to know Jesus and He is amazing an I have seen people repent and receive forgiveness of their sins, being made whole, actually seing who they are in God's sight, without needing to teach them a single thing about their "pre-mortal existence" They just need to know that God made them with purpose and the proof of that is that Christ came and gave His life for them when they didn't even know Him and could not have cared less about God. So, brother, bless you and while I think you're deceived in your perception of God because of the "way that seems right to a man" I believe God will still work in you and continue to transform you into His image as you continue to submit and yield to Him, because that is who God sees in you, is a Son and Son who looks like "THE Son" because of His grace and mercy and His love for you. So have a blessed night. Here are some scripture reasons as to why I believe the way I do. If i take a misstep, I run to God receive His mercy and grow in grace and become more transformed and made more mature in Him.


1 Peter 2: 21For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for you, LEAVING YOU AN EXAMPLE, that YOU SHOULD FOLLOW in His footsteps:

22“He committed no sin,

and NO deceit was found in His mouth.”

23When they heaped abuse on Him,

HE DID NOT RETALIATE;

when He suffered, He made no threats,

but ENTRUSTED HIMSELf TO HIM WHO JUDGES JUSTLY.

24He Himself bore our sins

in His body on the tree,

so that we might DIE TO SIN

and live to righteousness.

“By His stripes you are healed.”i

25For “you were like sheep going astray,”j but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.


I'm looking at the fruits of those who claim to have so much more and calim it is necessary jbknowledge... I guess to salvation or something... The fruits don't look good and we've had almost 200 years. The good fruits I see are those who give their lives to Christ and submit to Him (both in and out of hte church) it isn't fruit of believing the BoM. I see lots of temples and ancestral worship (see 1 Tim 1:3) I see lots of abuse from leadership. I see people who are "doing" things because they are afraid of going to hell. I see the poor and the widowed and orphans abused and their faces ground into the dust. And my heart cries out to God- and still I have hope for them and all men because God has declared hope through His Son and God doesn't change.

1 Cor 8: 2The one who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the one who loves God is known by God.

1 Tim 1: 3As I urged you on my departure to Macedonia, you should stay on at Ephesus to instruct certain men not to teach false doctrines 4or devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculation rather than the stewardship of God’s work, which is by faith. 5The goal of our instruction is the love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and a sincere faith. This is the goal of all instruction. How can you have faith if you're always wondering what God is gonna do- will he won't he. It is why scripture says this is a yes and amen gospel all promises are that way with God (2 cor 1:20) How can I be not conformed to the world if I don't even know who God is because one minute He is killing people and the next saving them, how can I Pray in faith know His will? Romans 12:2 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

As a final point, when Jesus went to the MT. of Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were there - representing hte Law and the PRophets. God the Father said to them and hte Apostles "HEAR HIM" meaning Jesus. All is subject to Him- the true meaning is from Christ and His life of how we are to live. He was the living epistle of God in the flesh. Col 1: 15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. and we are to put on that image Col 3: 9Do not lie to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices, 1and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free, but Christ is all and is in all

God is love 1 John 4
1 Cor 13 if ye have not love ye are nothing (describes love).

Lol yes, because it's just me doing the accusing and assuming

Pacifism breeds passive aggression. You're a grown man, shrug that sh!t off.

[John Tavner]

Lol do you not see the irony of your post?

The Book of Mormon clearly/consistently teaches this because God wants us to know this

Yet you say it doesn't matter

It doesn't matter to you because you do not believe in the Book of Mormon

And my point of all this is you said the Book of Mormon did not bring anything new
It is a false statement. You may be sincere, but your unbelief blinds you and makes teach false doctrine

You claim how you let God mold you in His image, that your this... and that.

But Jesus Christ would offend you

You graft pacifism into God because you cannot accept who God is.

God does things that you call evil. This is why you doubt the BoM

And if you sit here and tell everybody how God is.

Why should anyone who knows the truth of the BoM listen to your opinion on it?

All you're doing is making accusations with no actual substance, - not inviting, not even try to show me how I'm scripturally wrong - . If that makes you feel better, then go for it, feel free to continue making your accusations and I sincerely mean that, if you aren't finished, feel free to continue. The fact of the matter is that in the end if you (general) aren't teaching truth and bringing people to Christ by living a life in Him all you're doing is exactly what I'm saying "you have knowledge, but it doesn't make you look like Him." Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. "these are they who wiill say in the last day "Lord Lord have we not done many miracles and wonderful works in your name and the Lord will say "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you." You did a lot of things that looked good but you still didn't know me. LIke JOhn said. He who says He loves God, but hates His brother is a liar. The sad part is here is an example of some of the confusion that book creates, this is from a FB group where people claim to follow the Lord and His Doctrine I quote " I agree I feel nothing from the other scriptures. Too altered" This because of scripture that talks about plain and precious truths being taken out- Only the BoM apparently has truth. This is rampant. This attitude builds up even more so for those that often leave the church - the think everything is wrong so they become agnostic or false atheists.

So for all the "extra" knowledge Mormon's claim to have, they sure live lives in a hellish landscape ... always wondering if they will "measure up" or be "worthy of God's love." Seems their extra "knowledge" isn't helping them at all. They act the same way any non-believer acts- act the same way other non-mormon supposed believers act. I see no difference. You can say I don't know God, by saying I am "offended" but your words don't judge me, God does and I thank God that He is my judge and I am free. You think it is pacifism, I am just believing the words that tell me "not to be angry with my brother" to "turn the other cheek" "if someone sues for you cloak give them you coat also" "if someone compels you to walk a mile witht them, walk with them twain" By their fruits ye shall know them - it's why I pray for them and attend church with them, because I want them to know Jesus and He is amazing an I have seen people repent and receive forgiveness of their sins, being made whole, actually seing who they are in God's sight, without needing to teach them a single thing about their "pre-mortal existence" They just need to know that God made them with purpose and the proof of that is that Christ came and gave His life for them when they didn't even know Him and could not have cared less about God. So, brother, bless you and while I think you're deceived in your perception of God because of the "way that seems right to a man" I believe God will still work in you and continue to transform you into His image as you continue to submit and yield to Him, because that is who God sees in you, is a Son and Son who looks like "THE Son" because of His grace and mercy and His love for you. So have a blessed night. Here are some scripture reasons as to why I believe the way I do. If i take a misstep, I run to God receive His mercy and grow in grace and become more transformed and made more mature in Him.


1 Peter 2: 21For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for you, LEAVING YOU AN EXAMPLE, that YOU SHOULD FOLLOW in His footsteps:

22“He committed no sin,

and NO deceit was found in His mouth.”

23When they heaped abuse on Him,

HE DID NOT RETALIATE;

when He suffered, He made no threats,

but ENTRUSTED HIMSELf TO HIM WHO JUDGES JUSTLY.

24He Himself bore our sins

in His body on the tree,

so that we might DIE TO SIN

and live to righteousness.

“By His stripes you are healed.”i

25For “you were like sheep going astray,”j but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.


I'm looking at the fruits of those who claim to have so much more and calim it is necessary jbknowledge... I guess to salvation or something... The fruits don't look good and we've had almost 200 years. The good fruits I see are those who give their lives to Christ and submit to Him (both in and out of hte church) it isn't fruit of believing the BoM. I see lots of temples and ancestral worship (see 1 Tim 1:3) I see lots of abuse from leadership. I see people who are "doing" things because they are afraid of going to hell. I see the poor and the widowed and orphans abused and their faces ground into the dust. And my heart cries out to God- and still I have hope for them and all men because God has declared hope through His Son and God doesn't change.

1 Cor 8: 2The one who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the one who loves God is known by God.

1 Tim 1: 3As I urged you on my departure to Macedonia, you should stay on at Ephesus to instruct certain men not to teach false doctrines 4or devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculation rather than the stewardship of God’s work, which is by faith. 5The goal of our instruction is the love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and a sincere faith. This is the goal of all instruction. How can you have faith if you're always wondering what God is gonna do- will he won't he. It is why scripture says this is a yes and amen gospel all promises are that way with God (2 cor 1:20) How can I be not conformed to the world if I don't even know who God is because one minute He is killing people and the next saving them, how can I Pray in faith know His will? Romans 12:2 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

As a final point, when Jesus went to the MT. of Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were there - representing hte Law and the PRophets. God the Father said to them and hte Apostles "HEAR HIM" meaning Jesus. All is subject to Him- the true meaning is from Christ and His life of how we are to live. He was the living epistle of God in the flesh. Col 1: 15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. and we are to put on that image Col 3: 9Do not lie to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices, 1and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free, but Christ is all and is in all

God is love 1 John 4
1 Cor 13 if ye have not love ye are nothing (describes love).

Lol yes, because it's just me doing the accusing and assuming

Pacifism breeds passive aggression. You're a grown man, shrug that sh!t off.

No aggression towards people, but ideas. 2 Cor 10:4The weapons of our warfare are not the weapons of the world. Instead, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We tear down arguments and every presumption set up against the knowledge of God; and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. People are destroyed for lack of knowledge of God if you want to save people it isn't the sword, it is the knowledge of God. You are welcome to try and plant the seed as Alma says- see if it bears good fruit, buth the purpose isn't "pacifism" that is where you get what I'm saying is wrong, the purpose is love. It is seeing more in the person that they see in themselves and despite their actions knowing they can know God more. That often times the way they react is because of traditions or lack of understanding. It doesn't make them "lost" It is "not loving your own life, even unto death., but loving God and man with the heart of God" It is the hope for them, it is what Christ did for us on the cross- through hte First Adam man fell and became sensual full of hate and self seeking, but through the Last Adam, all men might be lifted back up and restored by belief on His name redeemed by His blood.. Blessings to you brother