LDS Freedom Forum

BigT wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 1:15 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 9:45 am

BigT wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 9:41 am Maybe I missed it but is an attorney involved?

I’m not sure I would’ve agreed to meet with them, in her shoes. I guess she didn’t know how bad it could be.

Yes, she said she gave the recording to her attorney, who was waiting for her outside the room she was interrogated in. That would preserve chain of custody. I hope these men are charged with sexual battery for asking her about sexually-related topics that had no bearing on the issue at hand.

Thank you. I forgot the word "why" in my question.

"Maybe I missed it but why is an attorney involved?"

Getting an attorney prior to a "court of love" would indicate to me she was planning, or at least leaving the option open, civil action. I wonder why. Suing the church is a long, hard uphill trek. Few attorneys will take them on (especially here in Utah).

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 1:30 pm

BigT wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 1:15 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 9:45 am

BigT wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 9:41 am Maybe I missed it but is an attorney involved?

I’m not sure I would’ve agreed to meet with them, in her shoes. I guess she didn’t know how bad it could be.

Yes, she said she gave the recording to her attorney, who was waiting for her outside the room she was interrogated in. That would preserve chain of custody. I hope these men are charged with sexual battery for asking her about sexually-related topics that had no bearing on the issue at hand.

Thank you. I forgot the word "why" in my question.

"Maybe I missed it but why is an attorney involved?"

Getting an attorney prior to a "court of love" would indicate to me she was planning, or at least leaving the option open, civil action. I wonder why. Suing the church is a long, hard uphill trek. Few attorneys will take them on (especially here in Utah).

The church has been actively covering up sexual abuse for decades if not much longer. They need to be held accountable for their crimes. Protecting the abusers enables them and perpetuates the cycle. The reputation of the church be damned. They should be focusing on helping the victims and bringing the perpetrators to justice. No better than the RC church in that regard, and possibly, even worse.

More people need to lawyer up and sue them.

randyps wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 5:57 pm Sounds like she was an apostate that wanted to tear down the church because of an sex abuse put upon her by her relative. No one gets excommunicated for being an abuse victim...shes twisting the whole story.

Her abuser should rot in hell but the result of her not being able to forgive and move on is causing her to lash out against the church, which is what she is on trial for.

At the very least, im glad she is lawering up. This will force the church be more careful in future discipline councils and allow a more safer process

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 6:16 pm

randyps wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 5:57 pm Sounds like she was an apostate that wanted to tear down the church because of an sex abuse put upon her by her relative. No one gets excommunicated for being an abuse victim...shes twisting the whole story.

Her abuser should rot in hell but the result of her not being able to forgive and move on is causing her to lash out against the church, which is what she is on trial for.

At the very least, im glad she is lawering up. This will force the church be more careful in future discipline councils and allow a more safer process

I'm glad you aren't her judge.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 5:37 am Stories like this need to be heard. I’d honestly like to hear the audio recording. I don’t believe every claim of abuse, but what I am damned sure of is that the abused are treated poorly in this church:



https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... ame=iossmf

Before I say anything else, I want to thank everyone who read my posts, left comments, offered support, gave me a thumbs up, or sent me a direct message. I will never be able to express how thankful and humbled I am that I didn't have to face Sunday’s battlefield alone.

I will work hard to avoid boring you with unnecessary details and only add snark when it's essential. I’m open to questions if you have any.

Short Summary: I felt prepared. I was not. There is no proper preparation. These courts are evil, demeaning, manipulative, insulting, and, dare I say it, childish. This barbaric practice is neither loving nor godlike. I will not be excommunicated, but I was made aware that I am hanging by a thread, and if I resist their attempts to help me, they will not hesitate to pull the trigger. Being a woman and a victim of abuse does not grant me leniency or excuse me from the demands of justice. I did manage to legally record the proceedings.

Details for those interested:

In my last post, someone asked if I was going to be called to a full disciplinary court presided over by the stake president. My ward meets in the stake house, so it was unclear, but there was no full court. Someone who knows better will correct me - is it called a bishop's court? It was held in the high council room, with eight of us seated at one end of the conference table. My bishopric sat at the head of the table, and I sat to their right, with the two high councilmen assigned to our ward sitting between us. The clerk/exec-sec (who was only there to take notes) and a stake-level guy sat across from me. The only person I recognized was my bishop. It was basically just me and seven men I didn't know. Even though he wasn't present, the stake president's fingerprints were all over the entire production.

Taping it: I was pleasantly surprised, but they stuck to their word about handling the phone situation. They observed me turning it on and off, and I was instructed to place it on the table next to me so it could not be tampered with. When the bishop asked if I had another phone "on my person," I honestly stated that I did not. My little cheap recorder and mini tape, on the other hand, captured every word and is now in the hands of my attorney.

Following the opening prayer, the note-taker-clerk-guy went over the order of the evening. The bishop would begin by reading the accusations against me. His counselors and the stake guy would act as the prosecution and present the case for my ex-communication. The defense would then be presented by the two high councilmen, who were my advocates. I’d be the last to speak and would be permitted to share my time with character witnesses.

I want to be fair and give credit where it's due. There was so much darkness and absolutely no spirit in that room on Sunday night, but I will always appreciate the bishop's genuine sorrow over what happened to me as a child. It is, I believe, the first time any church leader has acknowledged that what happened and how the local leadership responded was egregious. His anguish was palpable. For a brief moment, my bishop was more concerned with my well-being than with the church game. Everyone in the room had been made aware of the details surrounding my abuse, and the reality of what happened and by whom was accepted "by this body" as the truth and was not subject to debate.

Accusations: The evening proceeded as outlined, starting with the bishop standing and reading off the charges against me. I swear he read them very slowly, accentuating certain words to emphasize how horrifying my actions were. He looked me right in the eyes and called me out.

Prosecution: This was the only time I thought about walking out. Even the vilest of human beings should never be forced to sit quietly while churchmen she does not know verbally demean and abuse her. It was pathetic. Let me reiterate: these men do not know me. My second counselor told the room that I am “undeserving of mercy” and that my actions call for the pain of justice. It's tragic, he continued, but it's in my best interests and the best interests of the church for me to be expelled from Christ's family.

(I’d like to intervene here. I didn’t kill anyone. I didn’t rape anyone. I didn’t hurt a kid. I am a victim of childhood abuse that I reported, and it was ignored. My perpetrator faced no consequences and continued to rise up the priesthood ladder. Until a decade ago, I never spoke of what happened. The crime(s) I stand accused of include talking ill of the church and brethren, using apostate language, and refusing to knock it off when asked. But I am undeserving of mercy? I need to be cast out of the family of Christ? Scare tactics run amuck).

Defense: The assigned advocate sitting right next to me began by stating that it is obvious that I am guilty of what I am accused of. I am working against God’s church by calling out His chosen leaders and am attempting to persuade members that I am right, and the church is wrong. I have “chosen the dark path of disobedience.” The defense "had no choice" but to agree with the prosecution that my behavior has been offensive to God. But despite this horrible person before the court (me!!) the spirit assures there is hope for my soul, and if I am given a second chance, I will not waste it.

My 45 minutes: I was granted the promised 45 minutes, but I went in knowing I would not use them all. I wasn’t going to convince them, as they are not convincible. I wasn’t going to beg for my soul, as no man in that room has power over my soul, and I wouldn't grant them that power. I wasn’t going to play along with their ruse because doing so would only embolden this hideous practice.

I wish I could say I was calm and never wavered, but these courts are situated in such a way as to manipulate emotion and create fear. And they are experts at it. We all want to be courageous and want the chance to stand up, flip them off, and walk out. It is set up for our side to fail. Every time. You will not win. I did not win. For my part, I outlined the details of my abuse, the failure of the church to intervene or report it, and why I felt I had no choice but to file a lawsuit, go public, and take my story to the press. I ended by acknowledging that, although I understood everything that had happened that evening and the potential repercussions of disobedience, I had no intention of going silent. I could never forgive myself if I stopped just to save my own @#$ and, as a result, an abused child asking for help is pushed aside and their abuse covered up to keep the name of the church untarnished.

Outcome: Following a brief break called by the bishop to confer with the stake president and the Lord about what “is in the best interest of Christ’s church," I was called back into the room and informed I was being formally disfellowshipped, lasting a minimum of 18 months. The exact length is up to me and how willing I am to complete the required program. The bishop produced a typed list of requirements that have to be met before I can expect to return to full fellowship. As he testified that the list was not conceived by man but was tailored just for me by the spirit because the Lord knows me, he started to cry. The list was a result of sincere prayer in conjunction with what had happened that evening. I'm not sure when he had time to type said list, but I let that slide.

In case you're confused like I was, I never — not once, never, never — indicated my intention or desire to return to church. I never agreed that I stood in need of repentance. I never said that I wanted the opportunity to prove myself while agreeing to “work the program." Quite the opposite. The only thing I made clear about my future was that I would not be silenced.

I will receive a copy of the list of requirements with my official letter of disfellowship, but here are the basics. Please keep in mind . . . I am not 12. *insert eye-roll*

Basic List:

I will pray twice a day, read the BofM every day, read a General Conference talk once a week, and take notes that I must be prepared to share if asked (a list of acceptable talks will be provided).

I will start attending my Sunday meetings, but am not permitted to take the sacrament.

I will meet with the bishop regularly and will come prepared to discuss my progress. If I come unprepared or am not up to date on “the program”, the appointment will be rescheduled.

I will track my behavior and produce proof of said tracking when it is requested. (We even discussed good apps).

I will pay an honest tithe and generous fast offering.

I will verbally apologize for my behavior and condemnation of the church leadership. This includes apologies to the stake presidency, bishopric, and my ward.

I will get off social media, purge my list of podcasts, remove previous posts and scrub my name from any exMo or anti-Mormon sites, and distance myself from any friends who are not encouraging my repentance.

I will stay away from porn and masturbation. I have decided they just must throw this on every list now, even if it is a swing and a miss. This was not part of any accusations and is unrelated to my abuse or condemnation of the church. It was not mentioned, listed, brought up, discussed, or even hinted at on Sunday. I can’t prove it, but it certainly appeared to be an attempt to embarrass or even get a rise out of me. This was the only bullet point on which the bishop went into more detail and then asked me questions. The questions were personal, inappropriate, awkward, and unrelated. WTH! I am an abuse victim in a room with 7 men I do not know, why not have a whole irrelevant discussion about abuse, sex addiction, and orgasms?

I will switch therapists, selected from an approved list. I am currently seeing one who specializes in trauma and is even a member of the church. I pay for his services out of my own pocket. But he works in private practice, and the brethren have no access to what I say. They found a therapist at LDS Family Services who works with abuse victims and has had remarkable success in helping them return to church (i.e. brainwashing). She is willing to work with me, with all of us – together – as one big happy family. NOT.GOING.TO.HAPPEN.

I think there were a few other things, but you get the gist. And, of course, “the bishop and stake president can adjust this list at will.”

Final Thoughts:

It is a hideous, evil, manipulative, defeating, and soul-wrenching experience. And it is that way on purpose. It is not Christlike. Renaming it a "court of love" and saying it is "sacred" does not change what it is. The goal is to knock the accused to their knees and make them beg for readmission to the club. I cannot begin to explain the hurt, harm, and abuse I endured and the wounds I now carry for a time. It will take some time to swallow the bitterness and work through the hate. I felt, and feel, like a less-than. There was nothing spiritual, uplifting, or moving about Sunday night.

I held it together. Never cried in their presence. Got the wind knocked out of me a few times, but never cried. I handed the tape over to my attorney (he sat in the lobby) and came home emotionally defeated and exhausted. Those seven men, and the stake president who gleefully sat in his office, were anticipating tears and pleading. They were anticipating thanks for saving me from excommunication and giving me one more chance.

As we gathered in the lobby after the closing prayer, the stake president joined us. Lots of shaking of hands, requests for hugs, and big smiles of encouragement that I can do this! Aren’t they nice? All is forgiven. Peace. Harmony. Love. Hold hands and kumbaya.

I never gave them the satisfaction.

They did nothing on Sunday but empower me.

Forward march.

Ever onward.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 5:37 am “... The crime(s) I stand accused of include talking ill of the church and brethren, using apostate language, and refusing to knock it off when asked.”

TheDuke wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 9:10 pm Abuse is terrible as is covering it up. But, this story smells fishy. As stated earlier the council is nothing like any of us has ever heard of, the written list would never be used, never heard of that and there is no printer. There are no specifics, it would not be such a bad thing, I mean the list and all and only disfellowship? Lastly, why haven't we heard about this. Between this group and anti-LDS open lawsuit in the USA over last several decades would have been reported. It is/would be open court, not some behind the scenes approach, supposedly had a lawyer. Too many things are way out there and not consistent with any LDS procedures anywhere at any time, and no other visible evidence. Worse, it seems stuff like this takes away from real issues of abuse.

randyps wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 6:31 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 6:16 pm

randyps wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 5:57 pm Sounds like she was an apostate that wanted to tear down the church because of an sex abuse put upon her by her relative. No one gets excommunicated for being an abuse victim...shes twisting the whole story.

Her abuser should rot in hell but the result of her not being able to forgive and move on is causing her to lash out against the church, which is what she is on trial for.

At the very least, im glad she is lawering up. This will force the church be more careful in future discipline councils and allow a more safer process

I'm glad you aren't her judge.

Dont got to be a judge to see that this woman is bitter, and to be fair she is bitter toward an unrighteous priesthood holder in her abuser which there are many in this church.

TheDuke wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 9:10 pm Abuse is terrible as is covering it up. But, this story smells fishy. As stated earlier the council is nothing like any of us has ever heard of, the written list would never be used, never heard of that and there is no printer. There are no specifics, it would not be such a bad thing, I mean the list and all and only disfellowship? Lastly, why haven't we heard about this. Between this group and anti-LDS open lawsuit in the USA over last several decades would have been reported. It is/would be open court, not some behind the scenes approach, supposedly had a lawyer. Too many things are way out there and not consistent with any LDS procedures anywhere at any time, and no other visible evidence. Worse, it seems stuff like this takes away from real issues of abuse.

JandD6572 wrote: ↑March 12th, 2023, 8:43 am

randyps wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 6:31 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 6:16 pm

randyps wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 5:57 pm Sounds like she was an apostate that wanted to tear down the church because of an sex abuse put upon her by her relative. No one gets excommunicated for being an abuse victim...shes twisting the whole story.

Her abuser should rot in hell but the result of her not being able to forgive and move on is causing her to lash out against the church, which is what she is on trial for.

At the very least, im glad she is lawering up. This will force the church be more careful in future discipline councils and allow a more safer process

I'm glad you aren't her judge.

Dont got to be a judge to see that this woman is bitter, and to be fair she is bitter toward an unrighteous priesthood holder in her abuser which there are many in this church.

Oh look, another TBM, has to be one in every thread. I would assume that if you do not know the "Victim" personally, you really have no room to cast such judgment. but then again, playing on the same playing field as you, perhaps you were the abuser? See how easy it is to change things around when none of us really knows anything about the other.

randyps wrote: ↑March 12th, 2023, 3:38 pm

JandD6572 wrote: ↑March 12th, 2023, 8:43 am

randyps wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 6:31 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 6:16 pm

I'm glad you aren't her judge.

Dont got to be a judge to see that this woman is bitter, and to be fair she is bitter toward an unrighteous priesthood holder in her abuser which there are many in this church.

Oh look, another TBM, has to be one in every thread. I would assume that if you do not know the "Victim" personally, you really have no room to cast such judgment. but then again, playing on the same playing field as you, perhaps you were the abuser? See how easy it is to change things around when none of us really knows anything about the other.

Nope, im currently disfellowshipped and would need to be rebaptised to be a TBM. I have been through a Stake disciplinary council.

God told me he always loves me and has big plans for me regardless of membership in any church.

Lots of bitter people in here that cant move on with their lives. Ya know christ and his atonement is not exclusive to the mormon church, forgive and move away from negative things and churchs. Satan is the root of hate and bitterness.

Christ is love.

You all need to move out of those cess pool mormon communities like Utah, Idaho, Arizona. Frogs in hot water.

randyps wrote: ↑March 12th, 2023, 3:38 pm

JandD6572 wrote: ↑March 12th, 2023, 8:43 am

randyps wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 6:31 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 6:16 pm

I'm glad you aren't her judge.

Dont got to be a judge to see that this woman is bitter, and to be fair she is bitter toward an unrighteous priesthood holder in her abuser which there are many in this church.

Oh look, another TBM, has to be one in every thread. I would assume that if you do not know the "Victim" personally, you really have no room to cast such judgment. but then again, playing on the same playing field as you, perhaps you were the abuser? See how easy it is to change things around when none of us really knows anything about the other.

Nope, im currently disfellowshipped and would need to be rebaptised to be a TBM. I have been through a Stake disciplinary council.

God told me he always loves me and has big plans for me regardless of membership in any church.

Lots of bitter people in here that cant move on with their lives. Ya know christ and his atonement is not exclusive to the mormon church, forgive and move away from negative things and churchs. Satan is the root of hate and bitterness.

Christ is love.

You all need to move out of those cess pool mormon communities like Utah, Idaho, Arizona. Frogs in hot water.

randyps wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 6:31 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 6:16 pm

randyps wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 5:57 pm Sounds like she was an apostate that wanted to tear down the church because of an sex abuse put upon her by her relative. No one gets excommunicated for being an abuse victim...shes twisting the whole story.

Her abuser should rot in hell but the result of her not being able to forgive and move on is causing her to lash out against the church, which is what she is on trial for.

At the very least, im glad she is lawering up. This will force the church be more careful in future discipline councils and allow a more safer process

I'm glad you aren't her judge.

Dont got to be a judge to see that this woman is bitter, and to be fair she is bitter toward an unrighteous priesthood holder in her abuser which there are many in this church.

bit·ter
/ˈbidər/
adjective
adjective: bitter; comparative adjective: bitterer; superlative adjective: bitterest

1.
having a sharp, pungent taste or smell; not sweet.
"the raw berries have an intensely bitter flavor"

2.
(of people or their feelings or behavior) angry, hurt, or resentful because of one's bad experiences or a sense of unjust treatment.
"I don't feel jealous or bitter"

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 12th, 2023, 9:40 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 9:10 pm Abuse is terrible as is covering it up. But, this story smells fishy. As stated earlier the council is nothing like any of us has ever heard of, the written list would never be used, never heard of that and there is no printer. There are no specifics, it would not be such a bad thing, I mean the list and all and only disfellowship? Lastly, why haven't we heard about this. Between this group and anti-LDS open lawsuit in the USA over last several decades would have been reported. It is/would be open court, not some behind the scenes approach, supposedly had a lawyer. Too many things are way out there and not consistent with any LDS procedures anywhere at any time, and no other visible evidence. Worse, it seems stuff like this takes away from real issues of abuse.

I find it interesting that most things that seem “fishy” are such simply because you have never heard of it. If that’s how you measure truth, by your own experience, and casting aside other people’s experiences, then this whole church stinks to high heaven.

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 1:30 pm

BigT wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 1:15 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 9:45 am

BigT wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 9:41 am Maybe I missed it but is an attorney involved?

I’m not sure I would’ve agreed to meet with them, in her shoes. I guess she didn’t know how bad it could be.

Yes, she said she gave the recording to her attorney, who was waiting for her outside the room she was interrogated in. That would preserve chain of custody. I hope these men are charged with sexual battery for asking her about sexually-related topics that had no bearing on the issue at hand.

Thank you. I forgot the word "why" in my question.

"Maybe I missed it but why is an attorney involved?"

Getting an attorney prior to a "court of love" would indicate to me she was planning, or at least leaving the option open, civil action. I wonder why. Suing the church is a long, hard uphill trek. Few attorneys will take them on (especially here in Utah).

The church has been actively covering up sexual abuse for decades if not much longer. They need to be held accountable for their crimes. Protecting the abusers enables them and perpetuates the cycle. The reputation of the church be damned. They should be focusing on helping the victims and bringing the perpetrators to justice. No better than the RC church in that regard, and possibly, even worse.

More people need to lawyer up and sue them.

And they shall go out and look upon the corpses of the people who transgressed against me, whose worms do not die and whose fire shall not be extinguished. They shall be a horror to all flesh.

TheDuke wrote: ↑March 12th, 2023, 4:46 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 12th, 2023, 9:40 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑March 11th, 2023, 9:10 pm Abuse is terrible as is covering it up. But, this story smells fishy. As stated earlier the council is nothing like any of us has ever heard of, the written list would never be used, never heard of that and there is no printer. There are no specifics, it would not be such a bad thing, I mean the list and all and only disfellowship? Lastly, why haven't we heard about this. Between this group and anti-LDS open lawsuit in the USA over last several decades would have been reported. It is/would be open court, not some behind the scenes approach, supposedly had a lawyer. Too many things are way out there and not consistent with any LDS procedures anywhere at any time, and no other visible evidence. Worse, it seems stuff like this takes away from real issues of abuse.

I find it interesting that most things that seem “fishy” are such simply because you have never heard of it. If that’s how you measure truth, by your own experience, and casting aside other people’s experiences, then this whole church stinks to high heaven.

It does call into question your experiences as a HC? Fishy, as in a mix of bishop and SP and HC? That never happens! NEVER! Any time the SP and stake officials get involved, the bishop is out. Not out of the full picture but out of the council of voting. You must know that. You can have either but not both. Two juristictions like fed and state, but not combined. Then if you have SP and HC you get them all ,not 2x2 and the SP must be there. or you can get SP w/i or w/o counselors and no HC but not with bishop. All that and you'll likely never get SP for a woman and end up in disfellowship. If it is heading towards that then it is the bishops role, not SP. SP only for endowment PH holders and possibly RS endowed adulterers. Never heard of this process. And like I said if she had a lawyer in it, and there was any merit, as there sure would be if this were true. Then we'd know about it by someone on some forum, good or bad vis the net! You can just keep seeing LDS leadership evil, fine.

But don't bother to respond without some evidence of wrong doing. Not saying how much, just any. We don't even have a name to look up on the net.

If I were to publish my issues with LDS leaders, I would at the very least make my claims look like they were real, with realistic processes. Not some crazy non-mormon view of a mormon PH council. IMO. and BTW I have a right to my opinion, I surely don't need to give it up because you have an axe to grind.