The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

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JohnnyL
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by JohnnyL »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: March 11th, 2023, 12:23 am Is there any account of wine or herbs being used at this gathering?

Also, it seems SOMEBODY would have been excited about it a lot sooner. How come nobody said anything by the next day if it was such a miraculous event seen by that many?
Three of us experienced a miraculous event. None of us wrote it down. Years later (30?) we finally discussed it. Well, not discussed--I brought it up, and the other two shook their heads and stared off in space, and tried not to cry. Conversation over.

Huh. Guess it never happened.

Lol, wrong.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

JohnnyL wrote: March 16th, 2023, 10:46 pm
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: March 11th, 2023, 12:23 am Is there any account of wine or herbs being used at this gathering?

Also, it seems SOMEBODY would have been excited about it a lot sooner. How come nobody said anything by the next day if it was such a miraculous event seen by that many?
Three of us experienced a miraculous event. None of us wrote it down. Years later (30?) we finally discussed it. Well, not discussed--I brought it up, and the other two shook their heads and stared off in space, and tried not to cry. Conversation over.

Huh. Guess it never happened.

Lol, wrong.
We don't build a church and manipulate millions of people with embellished stories and cry over the pulpit in conference talks 200 years later and extort a whole bunch of money out of people thinking they are buying their salvation and micromanage their existence over some experience you three guys had and talked about 30 years later.

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by kirtland r.m. »

You know, some of the posts on the forum such as the whittling down of the information on the o.p. to three people and thirty years could actually have been written by the exmo. crowd and or the crowd at the hundreds of so called Christian ministries seeking to lay down a steady smoke screen of deceit as they seek to lead lambs astray. In fact, they pay hard cash for some of these kinds of thoughts over on that side of the fence. Loose your desire to tell truth, as well as ability to reason honestly and earn a little cash while you are at it? However, the long term effects of kicking against the pricks are not promising, satisfying, or rewarding.

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tmac
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by tmac »

From my perspective, a sound principle in the operation of the Church is that things should be done either by Divine revelation, legitimate Common Consent, and ideally, both.

One of the challenges with Divine revelation is that it is most often empirically unprovable, as is the case here, and say, for example, with the First Vision. It is not possible to prove, empirically, whether the First Vision happened or not. Likewise, the transfiguration of BY fits in the same category.

But the thing that did unquestionably occur on that day was indisputable Common Consent. When given the opportunity, by Common Consent, to sustain SR or BY, for whatever actual reason (transfiguration or otherwise), they unanimously chose by Common Consent, to sustain BY and the Q12. By extension, it seems logical to conclude that something out-of-the-ordinary must have occurred to cause a complete and unanimous rejection of SR.

Does that prove anything? Not necessarily. But, based on the totality of the circumstances, and the circumstantial evidence of what occurred (unanimous consent), there does not appear to have been any other, more valid claim to succession in the Church at the time.

As we are seeing the current “tradition of succession” play-out now almost 200 years later, it was when the current leaders were made apostles almost 40 years ago that there should have been a serious and legitimate test of Common Consent. Otherwise, nature just takes its course (with rumors and speculation about “help” along the way), and then we end up where we are today.

Personally, I have my own axes to grind with BY, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t called of God, and/or that things didn’t turn-out exactly as God intended. In any event, from my perspective, it would be hard to make a legitimate argument that anyone else had any better claim to the position at the time.
Last edited by tmac on March 23rd, 2023, 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Robin Hood
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by Robin Hood »

tmac wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 7:54 am From my perspective, a sound principle in the operation of the Church is that things should be done either by Divine revelation, legitimate Common Consent, or both.

One of the challenges with Divine revelation is that it is most often empirically unprovable, as is the case here, and say, for example, with the first vision. It is not possible to prove, empirically, whether the First Vision happened or not. Likewise, the transfiguration of BY fits in the same category.

But the thing that did unquestionably occur on that day was indisputable Common Consent. When given the opportunity, by Common Consent, to sustain SR or BY, for whatever actual reason (transfiguration or otherwise), they unanimously chose by Common Consent, to sustain BY. By extension, it seems logical to conclude that something out-of-the-ordinary must have occurred to cause a complete and unanimous rejection of SR.

Does that prove anything? Not necessarily. But, based on the totality of the circumstances, and the circumstantial evidence of what occurred (unanimous consent), there does not appear to have been any other, more valid claim to succession in the Church at the time.

As we are seeing the current “tradition of succession” play-out now almost 200 years later, it was when the current leaders were made apostles almost 40 years ago that there should have been a serious and legitimate test of Common Consent. Otherwise, nature just takes its course (with rumors and speculation about “help” along the way), and then we end up where we are today.

Personally, I have my own axes to grind with BY, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t called of God, and/or that things didn’t turn-out exactly as God intended. In any event, from my perspective, it would be hard to make a legitimate argument that anyone else had any better claim to the position at the time.
I agree, although I would point out that the Saints sustained the Twelve to lead the church, not specifically Brigham. Splitting hairs?... maybe.
However, on reflection I wonder if one of the motivations for voting for the Twelve (apart from any transfiguration event) was safety in numbers. Much wiser, and safer, to entrust a body of Twelve men, than a single individual with known eccentricities.

JohnnyL
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by JohnnyL »

kirtland r.m. wrote: March 20th, 2023, 9:02 pm You know, some of the posts on the forum such as the whittling down of the information on the o.p. to three people and thirty years could actually have been written by the exmo. crowd and or the crowd at the hundreds of so called Christian ministries seeking to lay down a steady smoke screen of deceit as they seek to lead lambs astray. In fact, they pay hard cash for some of these kinds of thoughts over on that side of the fence. Loose your desire to tell truth, as well as ability to reason honestly and earn a little cash while you are at it? However, the long term effects of kicking against the pricks are not promising, satisfying, or rewarding.
?? Please reread, especially the verb tenses... ;)

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BringerOfJoy
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by BringerOfJoy »

. . . and every few years Catholics come up with statues that bleed, lights flashing on the walls that every one is convinced is "The Virgin Mary," etc. So, if indeed the transfiguration really occurred--does God really need to resort to cheap parlor tricks?--what was the fruit of it? What lasting legacy do we have even today from Brigham's usurpation of Joseph's role? Warren Jeffs. The LeBarons. (If you haven't already, track down the podcast series, "Deliver us from Ervil.") The Kingston family. For a start.

JohnnyL
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by JohnnyL »

BringerOfJoy wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 10:24 am . . . and every few years Catholics come up with statues that bleed, lights flashing on the walls that every one is convinced is "The Virgin Mary," etc. So, if indeed the transfiguration really occurred--does God really need to resort to cheap parlor tricks?--what was the fruit of it? What lasting legacy do we have even today from Brigham's usurpation of Joseph's role? Warren Jeffs. The LeBarons. (If you haven't already, track down the podcast series, "Deliver us from Ervil.") The Kingston family. For a start.
Don't know who Ervil is, but he does sound like someone to be delivered from. ;)

On another note: what is the difference between a miracle/ vision and a cheap parlor trick?

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tmac
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

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BringerOfJoy wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 10:24 am . . . and every few years Catholics come up with statues that bleed, lights flashing on the walls that every one is convinced is "The Virgin Mary," etc. So, if indeed the transfiguration really occurred--does God really need to resort to cheap parlor tricks?--what was the fruit of it? What lasting legacy do we have even today from Brigham's usurpation of Joseph's role? Warren Jeffs. The LeBarons. (If you haven't already, track down the podcast series, "Deliver us from Ervil.") The Kingston family. For a start.
It is interesting the degree to which some people have such a single-dimensional perspective that they can’t see anything but polygamy, and can’t get past that.

In addition to the bad apples you have mentioned, many Church and political leaders in Utah and Arizona today are products of plural marriage. There is also plenty of good fruit, if you’re willing to look.

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BringerOfJoy
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by BringerOfJoy »

JohnnyL wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 10:56 am
BringerOfJoy wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 10:24 am . . . and every few years Catholics come up with statues that bleed, lights flashing on the walls that every one is convinced is "The Virgin Mary," etc. So, if indeed the transfiguration really occurred--does God really need to resort to cheap parlor tricks?--what was the fruit of it? What lasting legacy do we have even today from Brigham's usurpation of Joseph's role? Warren Jeffs. The LeBarons. (If you haven't already, track down the podcast series, "Deliver us from Ervil.") The Kingston family. For a start.
Don't know who Ervil is, but he does sound like someone to be delivered from. ;)

On another note: what is the difference between a miracle/ vision and a cheap parlor trick?
It's a fair question, and the short answer is that miracles and vision either come from God, or they come from fakery, OR they come from that Other Guy. I think one question to be asked is, "what was communicated?" Is there a message towards repentance? Is the person changed for the better? Or does it just attract more sign seekers seeking more signs?

One interesting thing to watch is the Pentecostal ministries. I am currently watching a YouTube series on William Branham, who started the "Message" movement back in the last century. The series comes from two gentlemen whose families have been involved in the movement for several generations. (Jim Jones, as well as much of the current N.A.R. movement trace their form of pentecostalism back to Branham.) His parlor tricks were usually just that. Faked. N.A.R. guy, Bill Johnson of Bethel church has reputedly had staff members put glitter through the vents above the chapel to simulate some bizarre spiritual power. But there is real spiritual phenomena out there, that is not of God, and that's a harder case. Some of you that have served missions in Brazil or the Caribbean may have been exposed to some of this kind of stuff. If indeed the Transfiguration stories actually happened, I would suspect it was the latter phenomena. The fruit smells to high heaven. The folks in the Eastern branches of Mormonism--despite their own problems created by their own unique leaders--were spared from much of that fruit because they weren't buying Brigham's bogus (to use Emma's expression) version of the Restored gospel.

simpleton
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by simpleton »

Brighams "version" of the restored gospel? How about God's version, after all, BY was representing God, and was endorsed by God.
And yes I have read all about him and his teachings. Pretty sound to me.
No comparison to the babbling demonic idiots, intentionally leading the sheep to death and hell, that we have today.

JohnnyL
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by JohnnyL »

BringerOfJoy wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 11:57 am
JohnnyL wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 10:56 am
BringerOfJoy wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 10:24 am . . . and every few years Catholics come up with statues that bleed, lights flashing on the walls that every one is convinced is "The Virgin Mary," etc. So, if indeed the transfiguration really occurred--does God really need to resort to cheap parlor tricks?--what was the fruit of it? What lasting legacy do we have even today from Brigham's usurpation of Joseph's role? Warren Jeffs. The LeBarons. (If you haven't already, track down the podcast series, "Deliver us from Ervil.") The Kingston family. For a start.
Don't know who Ervil is, but he does sound like someone to be delivered from. ;)

On another note: what is the difference between a miracle/ vision and a cheap parlor trick?
It's a fair question, and the short answer is that miracles and vision either come from God, or they come from fakery, OR they come from that Other Guy. I think one question to be asked is, "what was communicated?" Is there a message towards repentance? Is the person changed for the better? Or does it just attract more sign seekers seeking more signs?

One interesting thing to watch is the Pentecostal ministries. I am currently watching a YouTube series on William Branham, who started the "Message" movement back in the last century. The series comes from two gentlemen whose families have been involved in the movement for several generations. (Jim Jones, as well as much of the current N.A.R. movement trace their form of pentecostalism back to Branham.) His parlor tricks were usually just that. Faked. N.A.R. guy, Bill Johnson of Bethel church has reputedly had staff members put glitter through the vents above the chapel to simulate some bizarre spiritual power. But there is real spiritual phenomena out there, that is not of God, and that's a harder case. Some of you that have served missions in Brazil or the Caribbean may have been exposed to some of this kind of stuff. If indeed the Transfiguration stories actually happened, I would suspect it was the latter phenomena. The fruit smells to high heaven. The folks in the Eastern branches of Mormonism--despite their own problems created by their own unique leaders--were spared from much of that fruit because they weren't buying Brigham's bogus (to use Emma's expression) version of the Restored gospel.
I'll agree with your definition.

Yes, there was a very informative presentation on that many years ago on master hypnotist Dick Sutphen's website, The Battle for Your Mind. Hopefully it's still up on the internet somewhere.

I think that the transfiguration impressed upon many the way the Church was supposed to be led. I understand others might believe otherwise.

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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by ransomme »

tmac wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 11:57 am
BringerOfJoy wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 10:24 am . . . and every few years Catholics come up with statues that bleed, lights flashing on the walls that every one is convinced is "The Virgin Mary," etc. So, if indeed the transfiguration really occurred--does God really need to resort to cheap parlor tricks?--what was the fruit of it? What lasting legacy do we have even today from Brigham's usurpation of Joseph's role? Warren Jeffs. The LeBarons. (If you haven't already, track down the podcast series, "Deliver us from Ervil.") The Kingston family. For a start.
It is interesting the degree to which some people have such a single-dimensional perspective that they can’t see anything but polygamy, and can’t get past that.

In addition to the bad apples you have mentioned, many Church and political leaders in Utah and Arizona today are products of plural marriage. There is also plenty of good fruit, if you’re willing to look.
If one looked past polygamy, then they would have to look past BY's blood atonement, then after that Adam-God theory, and then, and then, and... It's hardly one thing, but polygamy being an abomination helps to more easily discern truth from error.

A child is not good fruit per se. Children come from rape, from marriages, from incest, from love, etc. A child being produced from abominations and whoredoms (God's words for polygamy not mine) doesn't mean that polygamy is good.

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tmac
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

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ransomme wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 2:29 pm
tmac wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 11:57 am
BringerOfJoy wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 10:24 am . . . and every few years Catholics come up with statues that bleed, lights flashing on the walls that every one is convinced is "The Virgin Mary," etc. So, if indeed the transfiguration really occurred--does God really need to resort to cheap parlor tricks?--what was the fruit of it? What lasting legacy do we have even today from Brigham's usurpation of Joseph's role? Warren Jeffs. The LeBarons. (If you haven't already, track down the podcast series, "Deliver us from Ervil.") The Kingston family. For a start.
It is interesting the degree to which some people have such a single-dimensional perspective that they can’t see anything but polygamy, and can’t get past that.

In addition to the bad apples you have mentioned, many Church and political leaders in Utah and Arizona today are products of plural marriage. There is also plenty of good fruit, if you’re willing to look.
If one looked past polygamy, then they would have to look past BY's blood atonement, then after that Adam-God theory, and then, and then, and... It's hardly one thing, but polygamy being an abomination helps to more easily discern truth from error.

A child is not good fruit per se. Children come from rape, from marriages, from incest, from love, etc. A child being produced from abominations and whoredoms (God's words for polygamy not mine) doesn't mean that polygamy is good.
I understand you have your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

Just curious, though, in your opinion, who should the successor to Joseph Smith have been? And, how do you arrive at that conclusion?

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by kirtland r.m. »

tmac wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 11:57 am
BringerOfJoy wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 10:24 am . . . and every few years Catholics come up with statues that bleed, lights flashing on the walls that every one is convinced is "The Virgin Mary," etc. So, if indeed the transfiguration really occurred--does God really need to resort to cheap parlor tricks?--what was the fruit of it? What lasting legacy do we have even today from Brigham's usurpation of Joseph's role? Warren Jeffs. The LeBarons. (If you haven't already, track down the podcast series, "Deliver us from Ervil.") The Kingston family. For a start.
It is interesting the degree to which some people have such a single-dimensional perspective that they can’t see anything but polygamy, and can’t get past that.

In addition to the bad apples you have mentioned, many Church and political leaders in Utah and Arizona today are products of plural marriage. There is also plenty of good fruit, if you’re willing to look.
It is interesting to note that, from what I have seen(in fact we had two of Ervil's group on my mission in a particular ward and I knew them, the father had came back and the mother was still messed up) these splinter groups are not practicing the law of plural marriage as had been originally taught. They are kicking their boys out of the nest(out of the area) as soon as possible, they are rife with massive government welfare fraud and this is just for starters.

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ransomme
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by ransomme »

tmac wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 5:38 pm
ransomme wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 2:29 pm
tmac wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 11:57 am

It is interesting the degree to which some people have such a single-dimensional perspective that they can’t see anything but polygamy, and can’t get past that.

In addition to the bad apples you have mentioned, many Church and political leaders in Utah and Arizona today are products of plural marriage. There is also plenty of good fruit, if you’re willing to look.
If one looked past polygamy, then they would have to look past BY's blood atonement, then after that Adam-God theory, and then, and then, and... It's hardly one thing, but polygamy being an abomination helps to more easily discern truth from error.

A child is not good fruit per se. Children come from rape, from marriages, from incest, from love, etc. A child being produced from abominations and whoredoms (God's words for polygamy not mine) doesn't mean that polygamy is good.
I understand you have your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

Just curious, though, in your opinion, who should the successor to Joseph Smith have been? And, how do you arrive at that conclusion?
Well I think it went down exactly how it was going to go down and it fulfilled patterns and prophesy. Joseph and Hyrum were removed from their place as were the rest of the people.

Any which way we slice "vanity and unbelief" and "hav[ing] treated lightly the things [we] have received" "had brought the whole church under condemnation" already and it will remain so until Zion is established by the remnant of Jacob and the restoration of all things. "When men keep all [His] commandments" and God keeps his everlasting covenant with Enoch and Noah.

My aim is to be a humble follower of the Christ and avoid error due to the precepts of men. B.Young just happens to be a man who causes more humble followers of Christ to err because of the many precepts he introduced.

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Robin Hood
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by Robin Hood »

tmac wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 5:38 pm
ransomme wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 2:29 pm
tmac wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 11:57 am

It is interesting the degree to which some people have such a single-dimensional perspective that they can’t see anything but polygamy, and can’t get past that.

In addition to the bad apples you have mentioned, many Church and political leaders in Utah and Arizona today are products of plural marriage. There is also plenty of good fruit, if you’re willing to look.
If one looked past polygamy, then they would have to look past BY's blood atonement, then after that Adam-God theory, and then, and then, and... It's hardly one thing, but polygamy being an abomination helps to more easily discern truth from error.

A child is not good fruit per se. Children come from rape, from marriages, from incest, from love, etc. A child being produced from abominations and whoredoms (God's words for polygamy not mine) doesn't mean that polygamy is good.
I understand you have your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

Just curious, though, in your opinion, who should the successor to Joseph Smith have been? And, how do you arrive at that conclusion?
I'll have a stab at answering that.
In my view the ultimate successor should have been Joseph Smith III. This was Joseph's plan and he clearly did designate his eldest son as his successor as president of the church.
Initially, it seems Brigham understood that this would be the case, which is why it was the Twelve who led the church, with no church president being appointed. Even Rigdon understood that he should be no more than a guardian until JSIII came of age.
But succeeding Joseph as president of the church was not necessarily synonymous with succeeding him as president of the High Priesthood, nor of being a genuine prophet, seer and revelator. That was a different matter entirely.

So we are left with an apostolic administration; and the fact that they organise themselves into two groups of three and twelve is neither here nor there.

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ransomme
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Post by ransomme »

Robin Hood wrote: March 24th, 2023, 3:01 am
tmac wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 5:38 pm
ransomme wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 2:29 pm

If one looked past polygamy, then they would have to look past BY's blood atonement, then after that Adam-God theory, and then, and then, and... It's hardly one thing, but polygamy being an abomination helps to more easily discern truth from error.

A child is not good fruit per se. Children come from rape, from marriages, from incest, from love, etc. A child being produced from abominations and whoredoms (God's words for polygamy not mine) doesn't mean that polygamy is good.
I understand you have your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

Just curious, though, in your opinion, who should the successor to Joseph Smith have been? And, how do you arrive at that conclusion?
I'll have a stab at answering that.
In my view the ultimate successor should have been Joseph Smith III. This was Joseph's plan and he clearly did designate his eldest son as his successor as president of the church.
Initially, it seems Brigham understood that this would be the case, which is why it was the Twelve who led the church, with no church president being appointed. Even Rigdon understood that he should be no more than a guardian until JSIII came of age.
But succeeding Joseph as president of the church was not necessarily synonymous with succeeding him as president of the High Priesthood, nor of being a genuine prophet, seer and revelator. That was a different matter entirely.

So we are left with an apostolic administration; and the fact that they organise themselves into a first presidency is neither here nor there.
If they had built the Nauvoo temple by the appointed time, sufficiently humbled themselves and received all the things that Lord have them and wanted to give them (in the completed House of the Lord) then they stupid a chance to establish Zion

Unfortunately from scripture we know that was never going to happen at that time. The Lord still communicated His expectation and offered the opportunity to inherit Zion to the Church. But the Church failed as was expected/foreknown. These are all dominos falling in their foreseen places that lead us to the End of Times.

Section 101
99 Therefore, it is my will that my people should claim, and hold claim upon that which I have appointed unto them, though they should not be permitted to dwell thereon.
100 Nevertheless, I do not say they shall not dwell thereon; for inasmuch as they bring forth fruit and works meet for my kingdom they shall dwell thereon.
101 They shall build, and another shall not inherit it; they shall plant vineyards, and they shall eat the fruit thereof. Even so. Amen.

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tmac
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

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I understand that JS thought JSIII should lead the Church. But who did God want to lead the Church?

Moreover, in its imperfect, fallen, condemned state, what did the Lord want the Church to do?

If the line of thinking being suggested is correct, once they came under condemnation and failed to establish Zion, God completely bowed out of the picture, and the mainstream Church and its leaders have been on their own, and operating without any involvement with God ever since then. Is that the theory?

So, does that make the RLDS Church correct, and God’s chosen vessel?

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Robin Hood
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by Robin Hood »

tmac wrote: March 24th, 2023, 6:29 am I understand that JS thought JSIII should lead the Church. But who did God want to lead the Church?

Moreover, in its imperfect, fallen, condemned state, what did the Lord want the Church to do?

If the line of thinking being suggested is correct, once they came under condemnation and failed to establish Zion, God completely bowed out of the picture, and the mainstream Church and its leaders have been on their own, and operating without any involvement with God ever since then. Is that the theory?

So, does that make the RLDS Church correct, and God’s chosen vessel?
According to D&C 43 it was within Joseph's gift to appoint his successor.

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Luke
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by Luke »

tmac wrote: March 24th, 2023, 6:29 am I understand that JS thought JSIII should lead the Church. But who did God want to lead the Church?

Moreover, in its imperfect, fallen, condemned state, what did the Lord want the Church to do?

If the line of thinking being suggested is correct, once they came under condemnation and failed to establish Zion, God completely bowed out of the picture, and the mainstream Church and its leaders have been on their own, and operating without any involvement with God ever since then. Is that the theory?

So, does that make the RLDS Church correct, and God’s chosen vessel?
If Joseph wanted JSIII to lead the Church, then JSIII would have had to approach those who he gave the commission to look after the Church (until, assuming this line of thought is correct, JSIII was ready) to receive all the Temple Ordinances including the Second Anointing—which is the basis of which the Twelve and Council of Fifty’s commission to look after the Church—their receiving of said ordinances.

Sidney Rigdon never received his Second Anointing which Orson Hyde noted was the reason that he was ineligible to be Joseph’s successor.

However, JSIII never had any interest in the Temple Ordinances, so he was never eligible.

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tmac
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

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So, again, where does that leave succession of leadership in the Church, as it existed at that time? And the biggest question is, what did God intend/want to see happen?

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Luke
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Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by Luke »

tmac wrote: March 24th, 2023, 8:24 am So, again, where does that leave succession of leadership in the Church, as it existed at that time? And the biggest question is, what did God intend/want to see happen?
I think Hyrum was the intended successor. But he died first. They wanted Samuel to take over as Patriarch, but as far as who they wanted to succeed as head of the Council of Fifty (Prophet, Priest, and King over the Church and Kingdom), maybe we’ll never know.

What we do know is that Brigham eventually assumed that top office by virtue of his second anointing. And I think this was pleasing to God.

JohnnyL
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Posts: 9830

Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by JohnnyL »

Robin Hood wrote: March 24th, 2023, 3:01 am
tmac wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 5:38 pm
ransomme wrote: March 23rd, 2023, 2:29 pm

If one looked past polygamy, then they would have to look past BY's blood atonement, then after that Adam-God theory, and then, and then, and... It's hardly one thing, but polygamy being an abomination helps to more easily discern truth from error.

A child is not good fruit per se. Children come from rape, from marriages, from incest, from love, etc. A child being produced from abominations and whoredoms (God's words for polygamy not mine) doesn't mean that polygamy is good.
I understand you have your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

Just curious, though, in your opinion, who should the successor to Joseph Smith have been? And, how do you arrive at that conclusion?
I'll have a stab at answering that.
In my view the ultimate successor should have been Joseph Smith III. This was Joseph's plan and he clearly did designate his eldest son as his successor as president of the church.
Initially, it seems Brigham understood that this would be the case, which is why it was the Twelve who led the church, with no church president being appointed. Even Rigdon understood that he should be no more than a guardian until JSIII came of age.
But succeeding Joseph as president of the church was not necessarily synonymous with succeeding him as president of the High Priesthood, nor of being a genuine prophet, seer and revelator. That was a different matter entirely.

So we are left with an apostolic administration; and the fact that they organise themselves into two groups of three and twelve is neither here nor there.
IIRC (I posted this before somewhere on here), summed up: President Young had asked President Smith's sons, but only one responded positively; his family put him in a mad house before he left to join the Saints.

CuriousThinker
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Posts: 1186

Re: The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

Post by CuriousThinker »

What do you all think about this video? I think she does a great job showing the timing of the accounts. https://youtu.be/ANwV2dcIZQg

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