The transfiguration of Brigham Young? We currently have access to 141 accounts of the event.

[kirtland r.m.]

I have posted on this subject here in the past. I have also posted about misguided historians and even misguided church historians and others trying to change historical information to bend to their ever changing and evolving liberal leaning opinions and the ever present lack of research and out and out lies and distortions by many including the hundreds of anti restoration so called "ministries". This well written blog post addresses both nicely and I give a tip of the hat to them. Here is some really good material from ldsanswers.org, a great job of debunking in my opinion. https://ldsanswers.org/evidence-transfi ... ham-young/

[Atrasado]

Excellent post, Kirtland! Thanks for sharing that data.

[oneClimbs]

I don’t know why this event is such a big deal. Facial transfiguration no matter how impressive has nothing to do with how God organized the church and planned for succession to occur.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Is there any account of wine or herbs being used at this gathering?

Also, it seems SOMEBODY would have been excited about it a lot sooner. How come nobody said anything by the next day if it was such a miraculous event seen by that many?

[CaptainM]

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4)

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (2 Peter 1)

[cab]

Wonderful. 141 accounts. Just like we’ll have thousands of regurgit-talks in our EQ and RS meetings tomorrow…

The fact that there are 141 accounts yet zero contemporaneous descriptions of this miraculous event are further evidence of it being regurgitated Mormon folklore.

[Reluctant Watchman]

From what I understand, a few of those accounts came from people who were not even at the event.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Mark Twain had a unique perspective on this:

In 1872, famed humorist and writer Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) chronicled his adventures while touring the Western United States (including visiting Brigham Young in Salt Lake City). Although full of fictional hyperbole, lampoonery of the Saints, and jocular jabs at the Book of Mormon, he also included some very candid observations which were presented without humor and as matter of fact. Of the Utah LDS, Twain recorded:

"Polygamy is a recent feature in the Mormon religion, and was added by Brigham Young after Joseph Smith’s death. Before that, it was regarded as an ‘abomination.’" (Mark Twain, Roughing It, p. 76. )

Twain then wryly observed that even though in the second chapter of Jacob, in the Book of Mormon the Lord condemns polygamy and “will not suffer” that His people practice it, that “Brigham ‘suffers’ it” (ibid). At the end of the book, Twain solemnly recorded:

"Joseph Smith, the finder of the Book of Mormon and founder of the religion, was driven from state to state…. The neighbors rose up and drove the Mormons out of Ohio, and they settled in Missouri…. The Missourians drove them out, and they retreated to Nauvoo, Illinois…. But the Mormons were badgered and harried again by their neighbors. All the proclamations Joseph Smith could issue denouncing polygamy and repudiating it as utterly anti-Mormon were of no avail; the people of the neighborhood…claimed that polygamy was practiced by the Mormons…. Finally Nauvoo was invaded by the Missouri and Illinois Gentiles, and Joseph Smith killed…. Brigham seized the advantage of the hour and without other authority…hurled Rigdon [from leadership of the Church] and occupied it himself…. [The people] straightway elected Brigham Young president….

One of the last things which Brigham Young had done before leaving Iowa was to appear in the pulpit dressed to personate the…lamented prophet Smith, and confer the prophetic succession, with all its dignities, emoluments and authorities upon ‘President Brigham Young!’ The people accepted the pious fraud with the maddest enthusiasm, and Brigham’s power was sealed and secured for all time. Within five years afterward he openly added polygamy to the tenets of the church by authority of a ‘revelation’ which he pretended had been received nine years before by Joseph Smith, albeit Joseph is amply on record as denouncing polygamy to the day of his death….

Up to the date of our visit to Utah…Brigham Young was the only real power in the land. He was an absolute monarch—a monarch who defied our President…who received without emotion the news that the august Congress of the United States had enacted a solemn law against polygamy, and then went forth calmly and married twenty-five or thirty more wives." (Mark Twain, Roughing It, Appendix A: 392-395.)

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Mark Twain had a unique perspective on this:

In 1872, famed humorist and writer Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) chronicled his adventures while touring the Western United States (including visiting Brigham Young in Salt Lake City). Although full of fictional hyperbole, lampoonery of the Saints, and jocular jabs at the Book of Mormon, he also included some very candid observations which were presented without humor and as matter of fact. Of the Utah LDS, Twain recorded:

"Polygamy is a recent feature in the Mormon religion, and was added by Brigham Young after Joseph Smith’s death. Before that, it was regarded as an ‘abomination.’" (Mark Twain, Roughing It, p. 76. )

Twain then wryly observed that even though in the second chapter of Jacob, in the Book of Mormon the Lord condemns polygamy and “will not suffer” that His people practice it, that “Brigham ‘suffers’ it” (ibid). At the end of the book, Twain solemnly recorded:

"Joseph Smith, the finder of the Book of Mormon and founder of the religion, was driven from state to state…. The neighbors rose up and drove the Mormons out of Ohio, and they settled in Missouri…. The Missourians drove them out, and they retreated to Nauvoo, Illinois…. But the Mormons were badgered and harried again by their neighbors. All the proclamations Joseph Smith could issue denouncing polygamy and repudiating it as utterly anti-Mormon were of no avail; the people of the neighborhood…claimed that polygamy was practiced by the Mormons…. Finally Nauvoo was invaded by the Missouri and Illinois Gentiles, and Joseph Smith killed…. Brigham seized the advantage of the hour and without other authority…hurled Rigdon [from leadership of the Church] and occupied it himself…. [The people] straightway elected Brigham Young president….

One of the last things which Brigham Young had done before leaving Iowa was to appear in the pulpit dressed to personate the…lamented prophet Smith, and confer the prophetic succession, with all its dignities, emoluments and authorities upon ‘President Brigham Young!’ The people accepted the pious fraud with the maddest enthusiasm, and Brigham’s power was sealed and secured for all time. Within five years afterward he openly added polygamy to the tenets of the church by authority of a ‘revelation’ which he pretended had been received nine years before by Joseph Smith, albeit Joseph is amply on record as denouncing polygamy to the day of his death….

Up to the date of our visit to Utah…Brigham Young was the only real power in the land. He was an absolute monarch—a monarch who defied our President…who received without emotion the news that the august Congress of the United States had enacted a solemn law against polygamy, and then went forth calmly and married twenty-five or thirty more wives." (Mark Twain, Roughing It, Appendix A: 392-395.)

Well that's an interesting account!!

[Luke]

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4)

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (2 Peter 1)

The 3-in-1 Trinity of the Christian world is one fable which comes readily to mind.

[Bronco73idi]

Mark Twain had a unique perspective on this:

In 1872, famed humorist and writer Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) chronicled his adventures while touring the Western United States (including visiting Brigham Young in Salt Lake City). Although full of fictional hyperbole, lampoonery of the Saints, and jocular jabs at the Book of Mormon, he also included some very candid observations which were presented without humor and as matter of fact. Of the Utah LDS, Twain recorded:

"Polygamy is a recent feature in the Mormon religion, and was added by Brigham Young after Joseph Smith’s death. Before that, it was regarded as an ‘abomination.’" (Mark Twain, Roughing It, p. 76. )

Twain then wryly observed that even though in the second chapter of Jacob, in the Book of Mormon the Lord condemns polygamy and “will not suffer” that His people practice it, that “Brigham ‘suffers’ it” (ibid). At the end of the book, Twain solemnly recorded:

"Joseph Smith, the finder of the Book of Mormon and founder of the religion, was driven from state to state…. The neighbors rose up and drove the Mormons out of Ohio, and they settled in Missouri…. The Missourians drove them out, and they retreated to Nauvoo, Illinois…. But the Mormons were badgered and harried again by their neighbors. All the proclamations Joseph Smith could issue denouncing polygamy and repudiating it as utterly anti-Mormon were of no avail; the people of the neighborhood…claimed that polygamy was practiced by the Mormons…. Finally Nauvoo was invaded by the Missouri and Illinois Gentiles, and Joseph Smith killed…. Brigham seized the advantage of the hour and without other authority…hurled Rigdon [from leadership of the Church] and occupied it himself…. [The people] straightway elected Brigham Young president….

One of the last things which Brigham Young had done before leaving Iowa was to appear in the pulpit dressed to personate the…lamented prophet Smith, and confer the prophetic succession, with all its dignities, emoluments and authorities upon ‘President Brigham Young!’ The people accepted the pious fraud with the maddest enthusiasm, and Brigham’s power was sealed and secured for all time. Within five years afterward he openly added polygamy to the tenets of the church by authority of a ‘revelation’ which he pretended had been received nine years before by Joseph Smith, albeit Joseph is amply on record as denouncing polygamy to the day of his death….

Up to the date of our visit to Utah…Brigham Young was the only real power in the land. He was an absolute monarch—a monarch who defied our President…who received without emotion the news that the august Congress of the United States had enacted a solemn law against polygamy, and then went forth calmly and married twenty-five or thirty more wives." (Mark Twain, Roughing It, Appendix A: 392-395.)

Faith is believing what you know ain't so", and "If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be – a Christian".
Mark Twain

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

If Jospeh was the prophet to restore the lord’s words in the last days, wouldn’t he have to teach about this new everlasting covenant?

[Reluctant Watchman]

Mark Twain had a unique perspective on this:

In 1872, famed humorist and writer Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) chronicled his adventures while touring the Western United States (including visiting Brigham Young in Salt Lake City). Although full of fictional hyperbole, lampoonery of the Saints, and jocular jabs at the Book of Mormon, he also included some very candid observations which were presented without humor and as matter of fact. Of the Utah LDS, Twain recorded:

"Polygamy is a recent feature in the Mormon religion, and was added by Brigham Young after Joseph Smith’s death. Before that, it was regarded as an ‘abomination.’" (Mark Twain, Roughing It, p. 76. )

Twain then wryly observed that even though in the second chapter of Jacob, in the Book of Mormon the Lord condemns polygamy and “will not suffer” that His people practice it, that “Brigham ‘suffers’ it” (ibid). At the end of the book, Twain solemnly recorded:

"Joseph Smith, the finder of the Book of Mormon and founder of the religion, was driven from state to state…. The neighbors rose up and drove the Mormons out of Ohio, and they settled in Missouri…. The Missourians drove them out, and they retreated to Nauvoo, Illinois…. But the Mormons were badgered and harried again by their neighbors. All the proclamations Joseph Smith could issue denouncing polygamy and repudiating it as utterly anti-Mormon were of no avail; the people of the neighborhood…claimed that polygamy was practiced by the Mormons…. Finally Nauvoo was invaded by the Missouri and Illinois Gentiles, and Joseph Smith killed…. Brigham seized the advantage of the hour and without other authority…hurled Rigdon [from leadership of the Church] and occupied it himself…. [The people] straightway elected Brigham Young president….

One of the last things which Brigham Young had done before leaving Iowa was to appear in the pulpit dressed to personate the…lamented prophet Smith, and confer the prophetic succession, with all its dignities, emoluments and authorities upon ‘President Brigham Young!’ The people accepted the pious fraud with the maddest enthusiasm, and Brigham’s power was sealed and secured for all time. Within five years afterward he openly added polygamy to the tenets of the church by authority of a ‘revelation’ which he pretended had been received nine years before by Joseph Smith, albeit Joseph is amply on record as denouncing polygamy to the day of his death….

Up to the date of our visit to Utah…Brigham Young was the only real power in the land. He was an absolute monarch—a monarch who defied our President…who received without emotion the news that the august Congress of the United States had enacted a solemn law against polygamy, and then went forth calmly and married twenty-five or thirty more wives." (Mark Twain, Roughing It, Appendix A: 392-395.)

Faith is believing what you know ain't so", and "If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be – a Christian".
Mark Twain

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

If Jospeh was the prophet to restore the lord’s words in the last days, wouldn’t he have to teach about this new everlasting covenant?

Christ sure as heck wouldn't be LDS.

How about we back up Jeremiah to chapter 23?

And I have a cometely different perspective on the New and Everlasting Covenant.

[Bronco73idi]

Mark Twain had a unique perspective on this:

In 1872, famed humorist and writer Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) chronicled his adventures while touring the Western United States (including visiting Brigham Young in Salt Lake City). Although full of fictional hyperbole, lampoonery of the Saints, and jocular jabs at the Book of Mormon, he also included some very candid observations which were presented without humor and as matter of fact. Of the Utah LDS, Twain recorded:

"Polygamy is a recent feature in the Mormon religion, and was added by Brigham Young after Joseph Smith’s death. Before that, it was regarded as an ‘abomination.’" (Mark Twain, Roughing It, p. 76. )

Twain then wryly observed that even though in the second chapter of Jacob, in the Book of Mormon the Lord condemns polygamy and “will not suffer” that His people practice it, that “Brigham ‘suffers’ it” (ibid). At the end of the book, Twain solemnly recorded:

"Joseph Smith, the finder of the Book of Mormon and founder of the religion, was driven from state to state…. The neighbors rose up and drove the Mormons out of Ohio, and they settled in Missouri…. The Missourians drove them out, and they retreated to Nauvoo, Illinois…. But the Mormons were badgered and harried again by their neighbors. All the proclamations Joseph Smith could issue denouncing polygamy and repudiating it as utterly anti-Mormon were of no avail; the people of the neighborhood…claimed that polygamy was practiced by the Mormons…. Finally Nauvoo was invaded by the Missouri and Illinois Gentiles, and Joseph Smith killed…. Brigham seized the advantage of the hour and without other authority…hurled Rigdon [from leadership of the Church] and occupied it himself…. [The people] straightway elected Brigham Young president….

One of the last things which Brigham Young had done before leaving Iowa was to appear in the pulpit dressed to personate the…lamented prophet Smith, and confer the prophetic succession, with all its dignities, emoluments and authorities upon ‘President Brigham Young!’ The people accepted the pious fraud with the maddest enthusiasm, and Brigham’s power was sealed and secured for all time. Within five years afterward he openly added polygamy to the tenets of the church by authority of a ‘revelation’ which he pretended had been received nine years before by Joseph Smith, albeit Joseph is amply on record as denouncing polygamy to the day of his death….

Up to the date of our visit to Utah…Brigham Young was the only real power in the land. He was an absolute monarch—a monarch who defied our President…who received without emotion the news that the august Congress of the United States had enacted a solemn law against polygamy, and then went forth calmly and married twenty-five or thirty more wives." (Mark Twain, Roughing It, Appendix A: 392-395.)

Faith is believing what you know ain't so", and "If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be – a Christian".
Mark Twain

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

If Jospeh was the prophet to restore the lord’s words in the last days, wouldn’t he have to teach about this new everlasting covenant?

Christ suee as heck wouldn't be LDS.

How about we back up Jeremiah to chapter 23?

And I have a cometely different perspective on the New and Everlasting Covenant.

Why was Christ born to a house as bad or worse then this house?

Nothing in 23 contradicts what I said or implied. Maybe you think I’m implying something else?

I personally believe that the Nephites and all the ones who would listen at that time had a version of the everlasting covenant that Jesus himself taught for them knowing that their seed would fail in the future, they were monogamous.

My whole point is Jospeh had to teach the everlasting covenant per Isaiah 24:5 or he was a false prophet. We can not be held accountable as a people if we were never taught it.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Mark Twain had a unique perspective on this:

Faith is believing what you know ain't so", and "If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be – a Christian".
Mark Twain

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

If Jospeh was the prophet to restore the lord’s words in the last days, wouldn’t he have to teach about this new everlasting covenant?

Christ suee as heck wouldn't be LDS.

How about we back up Jeremiah to chapter 23?

And I have a cometely different perspective on the New and Everlasting Covenant.

Why was Christ born to a house as bad or worse then this house?

Nothing in 23 contradicts what I said or implied. Maybe you think I’m implying something else?

I personally believe that the Nephites and all the ones who would listen at that time had a version of the everlasting covenant that Jesus himself taught for them knowing that their seed would fail in the future, they were monogamous.

My whole point is Jospeh had to teach the everlasting covenant per Isaiah 24:5 or he was a false prophet. We can not be held accountable as a people if we were never taught it.

Being born into a church is very different than accepting the doctines later in life. The LDS church teaches certain doctrines the exact opposite of what Christ himself taught.

[Bronco73idi]

Faith is believing what you know ain't so", and "If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be – a Christian".
Mark Twain

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

If Jospeh was the prophet to restore the lord’s words in the last days, wouldn’t he have to teach about this new everlasting covenant?

Christ suee as heck wouldn't be LDS.

How about we back up Jeremiah to chapter 23?

And I have a cometely different perspective on the New and Everlasting Covenant.

Why was Christ born to a house as bad or worse then this house?

Nothing in 23 contradicts what I said or implied. Maybe you think I’m implying something else?

I personally believe that the Nephites and all the ones who would listen at that time had a version of the everlasting covenant that Jesus himself taught for them knowing that their seed would fail in the future, they were monogamous.

My whole point is Jospeh had to teach the everlasting covenant per Isaiah 24:5 or he was a false prophet. We can not be held accountable as a people if we were never taught it.

Being born into a church is very different than accepting the doctines later in life. The LDS church teaches certain doctrines the exact opposite of what Christ himself taught.

He chose to be born into that house.

What doctrine does Christ teach that is different then how JS or BY taught?

If it wasn’t for BY and company as anti-Brighams call them, how would we know that Jospeh taught the everlasting covenant?

5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Christ suee as heck wouldn't be LDS.

How about we back up Jeremiah to chapter 23?

And I have a cometely different perspective on the New and Everlasting Covenant.

Why was Christ born to a house as bad or worse then this house?

Nothing in 23 contradicts what I said or implied. Maybe you think I’m implying something else?

I personally believe that the Nephites and all the ones who would listen at that time had a version of the everlasting covenant that Jesus himself taught for them knowing that their seed would fail in the future, they were monogamous.

My whole point is Jospeh had to teach the everlasting covenant per Isaiah 24:5 or he was a false prophet. We can not be held accountable as a people if we were never taught it.

Being born into a church is very different than accepting the doctines later in life. The LDS church teaches certain doctrines the exact opposite of what Christ himself taught.

He chose to be born into that house.

What doctrine does Christ teach that is different then how JS or BY taught?

If it wasn’t for BY and company as anti-Brighams call them, how would we know that Jospeh taught the everlasting covenant?

5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Brigham changed nearly EVERY doctrine brought forth by Joseph, and introduced his own abominations. We could go down the list. Temples and tithing are easy ones.

[Bronco73idi]

Why was Christ born to a house as bad or worse then this house?

Nothing in 23 contradicts what I said or implied. Maybe you think I’m implying something else?

I personally believe that the Nephites and all the ones who would listen at that time had a version of the everlasting covenant that Jesus himself taught for them knowing that their seed would fail in the future, they were monogamous.

My whole point is Jospeh had to teach the everlasting covenant per Isaiah 24:5 or he was a false prophet. We can not be held accountable as a people if we were never taught it.

Being born into a church is very different than accepting the doctines later in life. The LDS church teaches certain doctrines the exact opposite of what Christ himself taught.

He chose to be born into that house.

What doctrine does Christ teach that is different then how JS or BY taught?

If it wasn’t for BY and company as anti-Brighams call them, how would we know that Jospeh taught the everlasting covenant?

5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Brigham changed nearly EVERY doctrine brought forth by Joseph, and introduced his own abominations. We could go down the list. Temples and tithing are easy ones.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

I turn your attention to the 4th of May 1842

I find it interesting that one could say your damming words partially fulfill Jeremiah 23.

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.”

So people where instructed on the dealings of temple ordinances. We also have Jospeh talking about Adam god theory here also.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Being born into a church is very different than accepting the doctines later in life. The LDS church teaches certain doctrines the exact opposite of what Christ himself taught.

He chose to be born into that house.

What doctrine does Christ teach that is different then how JS or BY taught?

If it wasn’t for BY and company as anti-Brighams call them, how would we know that Jospeh taught the everlasting covenant?

5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Brigham changed nearly EVERY doctrine brought forth by Joseph, and introduced his own abominations. We could go down the list. Temples and tithing are easy ones.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

I turn your attention to the 4th of May 1842

I find it interesting that one could say your damming words partially fulfill Jeremiah 23.

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.”

So people where instructed on the dealings of temple ordinances. We also have Jospeh talking about Adam god theory here also.

IF Joseph taught Adam/god theory, he was wrong.

[Luke]

He chose to be born into that house.

What doctrine does Christ teach that is different then how JS or BY taught?

If it wasn’t for BY and company as anti-Brighams call them, how would we know that Jospeh taught the everlasting covenant?

5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Brigham changed nearly EVERY doctrine brought forth by Joseph, and introduced his own abominations. We could go down the list. Temples and tithing are easy ones.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

I turn your attention to the 4th of May 1842

I find it interesting that one could say your damming words partially fulfill Jeremiah 23.

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.”

So people where instructed on the dealings of temple ordinances. We also have Jospeh talking about Adam god theory here also.

IF Joseph taught Adam/god theory, he was wrong.

No, he wasn’t. The Ancient of Days is clearly God the Father. The debate is over.

[Luke]

Why was Christ born to a house as bad or worse then this house?

Nothing in 23 contradicts what I said or implied. Maybe you think I’m implying something else?

I personally believe that the Nephites and all the ones who would listen at that time had a version of the everlasting covenant that Jesus himself taught for them knowing that their seed would fail in the future, they were monogamous.

My whole point is Jospeh had to teach the everlasting covenant per Isaiah 24:5 or he was a false prophet. We can not be held accountable as a people if we were never taught it.

Being born into a church is very different than accepting the doctines later in life. The LDS church teaches certain doctrines the exact opposite of what Christ himself taught.

He chose to be born into that house.

What doctrine does Christ teach that is different then how JS or BY taught?

If it wasn’t for BY and company as anti-Brighams call them, how would we know that Jospeh taught the everlasting covenant?

5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Brigham changed nearly EVERY doctrine brought forth by Joseph, and introduced his own abominations. We could go down the list. Temples and tithing are easy ones.

No he didn’t—what a silly thing to say. As if Brigham had an opposite teaching for every single teaching that came from Joseph. BY derangement syndrome is real.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Brigham changed nearly EVERY doctrine brought forth by Joseph, and introduced his own abominations. We could go down the list. Temples and tithing are easy ones.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

I turn your attention to the 4th of May 1842

I find it interesting that one could say your damming words partially fulfill Jeremiah 23.

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.”

So people where instructed on the dealings of temple ordinances. We also have Jospeh talking about Adam god theory here also.

IF Joseph taught Adam/god theory, he was wrong.

No, he wasn’t. The Ancient of Days is clearly God the Father. The debate is over.

Sorry, but I disagree.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Being born into a church is very different than accepting the doctines later in life. The LDS church teaches certain doctrines the exact opposite of what Christ himself taught.

He chose to be born into that house.

What doctrine does Christ teach that is different then how JS or BY taught?

If it wasn’t for BY and company as anti-Brighams call them, how would we know that Jospeh taught the everlasting covenant?

5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Brigham changed nearly EVERY doctrine brought forth by Joseph, and introduced his own abominations. We could go down the list. Temples and tithing are easy ones.

No he didn’t—what a silly thing to say. As if Brigham had an opposite teaching for every single teaching that came from Joseph. BY derangement syndrome is real.

He changed a heck of a lot. So yes.

[Luke]

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

I turn your attention to the 4th of May 1842

I find it interesting that one could say your damming words partially fulfill Jeremiah 23.

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.”

So people where instructed on the dealings of temple ordinances. We also have Jospeh talking about Adam god theory here also.

IF Joseph taught Adam/god theory, he was wrong.

No, he wasn’t. The Ancient of Days is clearly God the Father. The debate is over.

Sorry, but I disagree.

Prove that it’s not. Literally everybody else (Jews, Christians, Muslims, scholars, other Mormons [including but not limited to Fundamentalists]) all believe that the Ancient of Days is the Almighty God/God the Father.

Jesus comes to HIM and is admitted into HIS presence to receive glory from HIM. Just read Daniel 7.

Again, prove that it’s not God the Father. Would like to see a good explanation as to how it’s not.

[Guest]

Brigham changed nearly EVERY doctrine brought forth by Joseph, and introduced his own abominations. We could go down the list. Temples and tithing are easy ones.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

I turn your attention to the 4th of May 1842

I find it interesting that one could say your damming words partially fulfill Jeremiah 23.

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.”

So people where instructed on the dealings of temple ordinances. We also have Jospeh talking about Adam god theory here also.

IF Joseph taught Adam/god theory, he was wrong.

No, he wasn’t. The Ancient of Days is clearly God the Father. The debate is over.

Do you consider the matter closed?

[CuriousThinker]

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

I turn your attention to the 4th of May 1842

I find it interesting that one could say your damming words partially fulfill Jeremiah 23.

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.”

So people where instructed on the dealings of temple ordinances. We also have Jospeh talking about Adam god theory here also.

IF Joseph taught Adam/god theory, he was wrong.

No, he wasn’t. The Ancient of Days is clearly God the Father. The debate is over.

Do you consider the matter closed?

That was me. No clue how it was able to show up as a guest post.