Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

[blitzinstripes]

Pick any other abomination and show me some nobility in it.

Adultery.....0.
Fornication.....0
Pedophilia......0
Faggotry.....0

Polygamy.....ZERO.

[Shawn Henry]

Lol. As if secrets are so evil and wrong. God keeps secrets (mysteries) from the wicked and unbelieving.

"Come ye near unto me; I have not spoken in secret"

Guess you've never read 1 Nephi.

Also, his mysteries are not kept from any because all are invited to come unto him and be partakers. His mysteries are laid out openly in scripture for all to study. The wicked choose not to know them.

[RosyPosy]

I respect the scholarship/research efforts of Hannah Stoddard, e.g.,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNkNO014MJ0

Does anyone know what she says about JS - and whether or not he had
sexual relations with any of those woman to whom he was SEALED?

I don’t like the Midnight Mormon crowd much at all. I saw parts of a few episodes. Passionate? Yes. Arrogant? Yes.

The problem I have w/ most LDS perspectives on this topic is there research often has a ceiling (or wall) if you will. They cannot contradict the prophets. Their prophets cannot be wrong.

Just the first few seconds of the vid was cringe.

[RosyPosy]

I respect the scholarship/research efforts of Hannah Stoddard, e.g.,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNkNO014MJ0

Does anyone know what she says about JS - and whether or not he had
sexual relations with any of those woman to whom he was SEALED?

I don’t like the Midnight Mormon crowd much at all. I saw parts of a few episodes. Passionate? Yes. Arrogant? Yes.

The problem I have w/ most LDS perspectives on this topic is there research often has a ceiling (or wall) if you will. They cannot contradict the prophets. Their prophets cannot be wrong.

Just the first few seconds of the vid was cringe.

[Redpilled Mormon]

What do you call this? It’s like these men were just waiting to… umm…. *cough*

Yeah—because they were all Joseph’s wives and needed to be married off. Of course there’s going to be a load of marriages when a husband of 30+ dies. But it’s not what you’re describing it to be—as if polygamous marriages only begun in substance when JS died. These were wives he had acquired over a period of a few years.

Haha… sure, justify that however you like. I love how Briggy played the “proxy” husband for all of those women. Even taking some women away from MARRIED, living, men.

“Well fellas, I’m gonna take one for the team.”

Levity is not a winning characteristic.

I'd be grim, mournful and humorless too, if I were forced to defend an obvious abomination as some sort of 'noble ideal'. My sympathies on the death of your sense of humor.

[blitzinstripes]

Lol. As if secrets are so evil and wrong. God keeps secrets (mysteries) from the wicked and unbelieving.

"Come ye near unto me; I have not spoken in secret"

Guess you've never read 1 Nephi.

Also, his mysteries are not kept from any because all are invited to come unto him and be partakers. His mysteries are laid out openly in scripture for all to study. The wicked choose not to know them.

I guess that includes lying to a faithful missionary and apostle (Orson Pratt), in regards to indecently proposing spiritual (and carnal) wifery to his wife while he is gone in the service of the Lord? (While I feel Joseph to be innocent and Bennett to be the prepetrator, the fruits are the same. Immoral filth, justified by a belief in a devilish doctrine.) There's your NOBILITY. You could have written a soap opera about early Mormonism/ polygamy that would have put The Young and Restless to shame. My heart breaks for Pratt, he nearly committed suicide over the matter. In his own words ....

I am a ruined man! My future prospects are blasted! The testimony upon both sides seems to be equal: The one in direct contradiction to the other—how to decide I know not neither does it matter for let it be either way my temporal happiness is gone in this world if the testimonies of my wife and others are true then I have been deceived for twelve years past—my hopes are blasted and gone as it were in a moment—my long toils and labors have been in vain. If on the other hand the other testimonies are true then my family are ruined forever. Where then is my hope in this world? It is gone—gone not to be recovered!! Oh God, why is it thus with me! My sorrows are greater than I can bear! Where I am henceforth it matters not.[30]

[RosyPosy]

I'm still new to this forum and I noticed that these talks on polygamy gain traction very quick.

So I'll cash in my 2 cents. I don't understand ones justification of polygamy. What your one wife ain't doing it for you? You need to bring another to satisfy an undisciplined sex drive? Sounds like objectification to me.

[Robin Hood]

I'm still new to this forum and I noticed that these talks on polygamy gain traction very quick.

So I'll cash in my 2 cents. I don't understand ones justification of polygamy. What your one wife ain't doing it for you? You need to bring another to satisfy an undisciplined sex drive? Sounds like objectification to me.

Undoubtedly that happened, but it wasn't what plural marriage was about.
However, is what we have now any better? The church is riddled with serial monogamy.

[LDS Physician]

What do you call this? It’s like these men were just waiting to… umm…. *cough*

Yeah—because they were all Joseph’s wives and needed to be married off. Of course there’s going to be a load of marriages when a husband of 30+ dies. But it’s not what you’re describing it to be—as if polygamous marriages only begun in substance when JS died. These were wives he had acquired over a period of a few years.

Haha… sure, justify that however you like. I love how Briggy played the “proxy” husband for all of those women. Even taking some women away from MARRIED, living, men.

“Well fellas, I’m gonna take one for the team.”

Levity is not a winning characteristic.

Going back to the graph, how do you 'grapple' with Brigham's wives who were well beyond child-bearing years? Why do you think he would marry such women?

He didn't want them to generate children, BA ...

[blitzinstripes]

Sadly, Orson would remain with the polygamist saints after Joseph's martyrdom, and eventually digress into a polygamist himself, most of his wives being quite young. His wife Sarah wrote the following in 1877 after her excommunication:

Here was my husband, gray headed, taking to his bed young girls in mockery of marriage. Of course there could be no joy for him in such an intercourse except for the indulgence of his fanaticism and of something else, perhaps, which I hesitate to mention.

Proof we need to often sever toxic associations for our own welfare. He eventually became the same corrupt fruit that had nearly cost him his own life due to the agony and grief it had brought up on him. Eerily similar to how abuse victims often become abusers themselves and perpetuate the cycle. The entire story is horrifying from beginning to end.

[Redpilled Mormon]

I'm still new to this forum and I noticed that these talks on polygamy gain traction very quick.

So I'll cash in my 2 cents. I don't understand ones justification of polygamy. What your one wife ain't doing it for you? You need to bring another to satisfy an undisciplined sex drive? Sounds like objectification to me.

Undoubtedly that happened, but it wasn't what plural marriage was about.
However, is what we have now any better? The church is riddled with serial monogamy.

Am I correct in reasoning that 'serial monogamy' = marriage, divorce, marriage, divorce, marriage, divorce (repeat)?

If so, clever phrase. And very real problem with current culture.

[RosyPosy]

I'm still new to this forum and I noticed that these talks on polygamy gain traction very quick.

So I'll cash in my 2 cents. I don't understand ones justification of polygamy. What your one wife ain't doing it for you? You need to bring another to satisfy an undisciplined sex drive? Sounds like objectification to me.

Undoubtedly that happened, but it wasn't what plural marriage was about.
However, is what we have now any better? The church is riddled with serial monogamy.

What's wrong with monogamy? As long as you choose the right person.

You realize there are also a lot of people who do prefer to be single and celibate?

[blitzinstripes]

Yeah—because they were all Joseph’s wives and needed to be married off. Of course there’s going to be a load of marriages when a husband of 30+ dies. But it’s not what you’re describing it to be—as if polygamous marriages only begun in substance when JS died. These were wives he had acquired over a period of a few years.

Haha… sure, justify that however you like. I love how Briggy played the “proxy” husband for all of those women. Even taking some women away from MARRIED, living, men.

“Well fellas, I’m gonna take one for the team.”

Levity is not a winning characteristic.

Going back to the graph, how do you 'grapple' with Brigham's wives who were well beyond child-bearing years? Why do you think he would marry such women?

He didn't want them to generate children, BA ...

Uh,oh.
The ONLY exception the Lord granted was when He saw fit to raise up seed. He certainly never called it a New and Everlasting Covenant, the Fullness of the Priesthood, or the only means to exaltation in the scriptures!

Screenshot_20230312-153835.png (218.05 KiB) Viewed 265 times

So marrying barren women and old widows might sound noble on the surface, but is clearly NOT permitted by the Lord.

[LDS Physician]

Haha… sure, justify that however you like. I love how Briggy played the “proxy” husband for all of those women. Even taking some women away from MARRIED, living, men.

“Well fellas, I’m gonna take one for the team.”

Levity is not a winning characteristic.

Going back to the graph, how do you 'grapple' with Brigham's wives who were well beyond child-bearing years? Why do you think he would marry such women?

He didn't want them to generate children, BA ...

Uh,oh.
The ONLY exception the Lord granted was when He saw fit to raise up seed. He certainly never called it a New and Everlasting Covenant, the Fullness of the Priesthood, or the only means to exaltation in the scriptures!
Screenshot_20230312-153835.png So marrying barren women and old widows might sound noble on the surface, but is clearly NOT permitted by the Lord.

Even verse 30 can be interpreted to mean something different than how most do.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Lol. As if secrets are so evil and wrong. God keeps secrets (mysteries) from the wicked and unbelieving.

"Come ye near unto me; I have not spoken in secret"

Guess you've never read 1 Nephi.

Also, his mysteries are not kept from any because all are invited to come unto him and be partakers. His mysteries are laid out openly in scripture for all to study. The wicked choose not to know them.

I guess that includes lying to a faithful missionary and apostle (Orson Pratt), in regards to indecently proposing spiritual (and carnal) wifery to his wife while he is gone in the service of the Lord? (While I feel Joseph to be innocent and Bennett to be the prepetrator, the fruits are the same. Immoral filth, justified by a belief in a devilish doctrine.) There's your NOBILITY. You could have written a soap opera about early Mormonism/ polygamy that would have put The Young and Restless to shame. My heart breaks for Pratt, he nearly committed suicide over the matter. In his own words ....

I am a ruined man! My future prospects are blasted! The testimony upon both sides seems to be equal: The one in direct contradiction to the other—how to decide I know not neither does it matter for let it be either way my temporal happiness is gone in this world if the testimonies of my wife and others are true then I have been deceived for twelve years past—my hopes are blasted and gone as it were in a moment—my long toils and labors have been in vain. If on the other hand the other testimonies are true then my family are ruined forever. Where then is my hope in this world? It is gone—gone not to be recovered!! Oh God, why is it thus with me! My sorrows are greater than I can bear! Where I am henceforth it matters not.[30]

Any chance you can break down the Orson Pratt quote? When was it written/spoken? What is the 12 year period he refers to? What are the two sides of the testimony/claims he states are both unacceptable and given him so much despair?

[blitzinstripes]

It refers to Pratt's conversion to the church (12 years) and the two sides were essentially JS vs Bennett. Both accused the other of the improper proposal. The evidence against Bennett is significantly greater than that against Smith. There's a ton of information out there to wade through if you have the time and interest.

This link will give you an overview of each side's claims.
https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/sar ... -reliable/

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Haha… sure, justify that however you like. I love how Briggy played the “proxy” husband for all of those women. Even taking some women away from MARRIED, living, men.

“Well fellas, I’m gonna take one for the team.”

Levity is not a winning characteristic.

Going back to the graph, how do you 'grapple' with Brigham's wives who were well beyond child-bearing years? Why do you think he would marry such women?

He didn't want them to generate children, BA ...

Uh,oh.
The ONLY exception the Lord granted was when He saw fit to raise up seed. He certainly never called it a New and Everlasting Covenant, the Fullness of the Priesthood, or the only means to exaltation in the scriptures!
Screenshot_20230312-153835.png So marrying barren women and old widows might sound noble on the surface, but is clearly NOT permitted by the Lord.

And possibly it was NEVER commanded as per this view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03RgMz403Wc

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

It refers to Pratt's conversion to the church (12 years) and the two sides were essentially JS vs Bennett. Both accused the other of the improper proposal. The evidence against Bennett is significantly greater than that against Smith. There's a ton of information out there to wade through if you have the time and interest.

Was Bennett the pastor from Maine who joined the church through Brigham Young's mission? Is it fair to say, in your view, the Bennett was the brain child of Brigham Young (and others') advocacy for polygamy?

[Luke]

I'm still new to this forum and I noticed that these talks on polygamy gain traction very quick.

So I'll cash in my 2 cents. I don't understand ones justification of polygamy. What your one wife ain't doing it for you? You need to bring another to satisfy an undisciplined sex drive? Sounds like objectification to me.

Undoubtedly that happened, but it wasn't what plural marriage was about.
However, is what we have now any better? The church is riddled with serial monogamy.

What's wrong with monogamy? As long as you choose the right person.

You realize there are also a lot of people who do prefer to be single and celibate?

He said “serial monogamy”. I.e. getting married and divorced numerous times.

[blitzinstripes]

It refers to Pratt's conversion to the church (12 years) and the two sides were essentially JS vs Bennett. Both accused the other of the improper proposal. The evidence against Bennett is significantly greater than that against Smith. There's a ton of information out there to wade through if you have the time and interest.

Was Bennett the pastor from Maine who joined the church through Brigham Young's mission? Is it fair to say, in your view, the Bennett was the brain child of Brigham Young (and others') advocacy for polygamy?

Yes. I believe that Bennett, Young, Kimball and others brought a false Cochranite doctrine of polyandry with them, and it ultimately corrupted the church and resulted in the death of Joseph and Hyrum who were innocent and actively working to root it out and expel the offenders.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Haha… sure, justify that however you like. I love how Briggy played the “proxy” husband for all of those women. Even taking some women away from MARRIED, living, men.

“Well fellas, I’m gonna take one for the team.”

Levity is not a winning characteristic.

Going back to the graph, how do you 'grapple' with Brigham's wives who were well beyond child-bearing years? Why do you think he would marry such women?

He didn't want them to generate children, BA ...

Uh,oh.
The ONLY exception the Lord granted was when He saw fit to raise up seed. He certainly never called it a New and Everlasting Covenant, the Fullness of the Priesthood, or the only means to exaltation in the scriptures!
Screenshot_20230312-153835.png So marrying barren women and old widows might sound noble on the surface, but is clearly NOT permitted by the Lord.

Or tearing away married wives from their husbands and telling them that they cannot be saved if they don’t enter polygamy. (Parley Pratt and Sister Hill)

[Reluctant Watchman]

Secrets:

25 I will bring forth out of darkness unto light all their secret works and their abominations; and except they repent I will destroy them from off the face of the earth; and I will bring to light all their secrets and abominations, unto every nation that shall hereafter possess the land.

26 And now, my son, we see that they did not repent; therefore they have been destroyed, and thus far the word of God has been fulfilled; yea, their secret abominations have been brought out of darkness and made known unto us.

27 And now, my son, I command you that ye retain all their oaths, and their covenants, and their agreements in their secret abominations; yea, and all their signs and their wonders ye shall keep from this people, that they know them not, lest peradventure they should fall into darkness also and be destroyed.

[Reluctant Watchman]

More secrets:

18 And it came to pass that they formed a secret combination, even as they of old; which combination is most abominable and wicked above all, in the sight of God;

19 For the Lord worketh not in secret combinations, neither doth he will that man should shed blood, but in all things hath forbidden it, from the beginning of man.

[Baurak Ale]

Haha… sure, justify that however you like. I love how Briggy played the “proxy” husband for all of those women. Even taking some women away from MARRIED, living, men.

“Well fellas, I’m gonna take one for the team.”

Levity is not a winning characteristic.

Going back to the graph, how do you 'grapple' with Brigham's wives who were well beyond child-bearing years? Why do you think he would marry such women?

He didn't want them to generate children, BA ...

Uh,oh.
The ONLY exception the Lord granted was when He saw fit to raise up seed. He certainly never called it a New and Everlasting Covenant, the Fullness of the Priesthood, or the only means to exaltation in the scriptures!
Screenshot_20230312-153835.png So marrying barren women and old widows might sound noble on the surface, but is clearly NOT permitted by the Lord.

The promises of Abraham and increase of seed go beyond this world. Joseph Smith marrying older women (or Brigham doing the same) provides seed unto the Lord in the eternities. To God, he views covenants and promises without regard for the wasting away of physical bodies.

[blitzinstripes]

Levity is not a winning characteristic.

Going back to the graph, how do you 'grapple' with Brigham's wives who were well beyond child-bearing years? Why do you think he would marry such women?

He didn't want them to generate children, BA ...

Uh,oh.
The ONLY exception the Lord granted was when He saw fit to raise up seed. He certainly never called it a New and Everlasting Covenant, the Fullness of the Priesthood, or the only means to exaltation in the scriptures!
Screenshot_20230312-153835.png So marrying barren women and old widows might sound noble on the surface, but is clearly NOT permitted by the Lord.

The promises of Abraham and increase of seed go beyond this world. Joseph Smith marrying older women (or Brigham doing the same) provides seed unto the Lord in the eternities. To God, he views covenants and promises without regard for the wasting away of physical bodies.

Perhaps plural marriage MAY exist in heaven, but the scriptures make a very clear case that for us mortals, it is strictly forbidden by the Lord with RARE EXCEPTION (similar to how killing works), definitely not a grand principle and doctrine to be embraced by the church.

Consecration is a higher law, but look what happens when men attempt to practice their own version of it in a telestial sphere.

Train wreck.

In the end, their abominations and whoredoms cost the saints their true prophets, (taken) and brought condemnation upon the church which is still in effect today.