Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

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blitzinstripes
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by blitzinstripes »

Baurak Ale wrote: March 12th, 2023, 3:47 pm
blitzinstripes wrote: March 12th, 2023, 1:42 pm
LDS Physician wrote: March 12th, 2023, 1:29 pm
Baurak Ale wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:58 am

Levity is not a winning characteristic.

Going back to the graph, how do you 'grapple' with Brigham's wives who were well beyond child-bearing years? Why do you think he would marry such women?
He didn't want them to generate children, BA ...
Uh,oh. 😁
The ONLY exception the Lord granted was when He saw fit to raise up seed. He certainly never called it a New and Everlasting Covenant, the Fullness of the Priesthood, or the only means to exaltation in the scriptures!
Screenshot_20230312-153835.png So marrying barren women and old widows might sound noble on the surface, but is clearly NOT permitted by the Lord.
The promises of Abraham and increase of seed go beyond this world. Joseph Smith marrying older women (or Brigham doing the same) provides seed unto the Lord in the eternities. To God, he views covenants and promises without regard for the wasting away of physical bodies.
Jacob chapter 2 is ALL about temporal laws and commandments and the devastating consequences that all forms of sexual sin including polygamy rent upon the Nephites civilization. The Lord is clearly not talking about raising seed in eternity when he makes the rare telestial exceptions to this law. Apples to oranges.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Baurak Ale wrote: March 12th, 2023, 3:47 pm
blitzinstripes wrote: March 12th, 2023, 1:42 pm
LDS Physician wrote: March 12th, 2023, 1:29 pm
Baurak Ale wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:58 am

Levity is not a winning characteristic.

Going back to the graph, how do you 'grapple' with Brigham's wives who were well beyond child-bearing years? Why do you think he would marry such women?
He didn't want them to generate children, BA ...
Uh,oh. 😁
The ONLY exception the Lord granted was when He saw fit to raise up seed. He certainly never called it a New and Everlasting Covenant, the Fullness of the Priesthood, or the only means to exaltation in the scriptures!
Screenshot_20230312-153835.png So marrying barren women and old widows might sound noble on the surface, but is clearly NOT permitted by the Lord.
The promises of Abraham and increase of seed go beyond this world. Joseph Smith marrying older women (or Brigham doing the same) provides seed unto the Lord in the eternities. To God, he views covenants and promises without regard for the wasting away of physical bodies.
The few exceptions in mortality is polygamy. The law of heaven is monogamy.

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ransomme
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by ransomme »

JLHPROF wrote: March 12th, 2023, 8:45 am
ransomme wrote: March 12th, 2023, 8:15 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 11th, 2023, 8:06 pm
Luke wrote: March 11th, 2023, 7:57 pm

Two things:

1. They didn’t murder him—you are just delusional.

2. They didn’t tell anyone anything until eight years later. They continued to do what Joseph did (i.e. lie to the public) about it until they were safe in Salt Lake. If they were what you said they are, why didn’t they just tell the world straight away? No-one seems to want to address this.
The explosion of abuse (sorry, marriages) after Joseph was murdered, should speak volumes.

Delusional indeed.
Bruh, it is just a coincidence that B.Young and HC Kimball only had like one plural wife before Joseph died, and then a dozen within months after Joseph & Hyrum's murders.
Well those dozens were Joseph's widows...
uh huh, that makes sense, Joseph had 30 but he only let those chumps have one extra. What were all of Joseph's wedding dates again? and the fruit/offspring? Why didn't Joseph keep better records since he was commanded to by the Lord, and was told if they weren't recorded on Earth then they wouldn't be recorded in Heaven?

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ransomme
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by ransomme »

Robin Hood wrote: March 12th, 2023, 9:15 am
ransomme wrote: March 12th, 2023, 8:09 am
Robin Hood wrote: March 11th, 2023, 2:38 pm
ransomme wrote: March 11th, 2023, 1:19 pm

This is an oversell on having "the army SENT after them", especially since the "Mormons" had a large militia, and Joseph was General Joseph. Don't be brainwashed by the Brighamites and Church Inc.'s version of history. Of course, there is a lot more to all this, but Brighamites won't listen anyway. They are as stubborn and more than TBM's.

Context, context, context.

But maybe if I can come up with a few quotes decades later I will have a shot with the Brighamites... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
I'm talking about when the army was sent to Utah. Nothing to do with the Nauvoo Legion or Gen. Joseph Smith.
And my point is, that there were a number of federal aggressions against the Saints in what became Utah, which would clearly have contributed significantly to the "us against the world" mentality amongst the Saints.
It's pretty obvious when you think about it.
Do you mean to say that it was unreasonable for the US government to send an army out (across a treacherous journey, across Indian lands) to check on newly acquired lands (from Mexico), that were settled by a people that were led by men that fled the law after they were indicted, which group fled US territory for Mexico when they left, which group had a militia, the Mormon Battalion, was growing in number, etc., and which people religiously swore by blood oaths to curse and take revenge on the US government? Really? Did it seem heavy-handed and particularly laden with persecution?
Yep.
And you usually seem reasonable, but not today sir, not today. Maybe EQ has you upset still :twisted:

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ransomme
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by ransomme »

Luke wrote: March 12th, 2023, 9:18 am
ransomme wrote: March 12th, 2023, 8:09 am
Robin Hood wrote: March 11th, 2023, 2:38 pm
ransomme wrote: March 11th, 2023, 1:19 pm

This is an oversell on having "the army SENT after them", especially since the "Mormons" had a large militia, and Joseph was General Joseph. Don't be brainwashed by the Brighamites and Church Inc.'s version of history. Of course, there is a lot more to all this, but Brighamites won't listen anyway. They are as stubborn and more than TBM's.

Context, context, context.

But maybe if I can come up with a few quotes decades later I will have a shot with the Brighamites... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
I'm talking about when the army was sent to Utah. Nothing to do with the Nauvoo Legion or Gen. Joseph Smith.
And my point is, that there were a number of federal aggressions against the Saints in what became Utah, which would clearly have contributed significantly to the "us against the world" mentality amongst the Saints.
It's pretty obvious when you think about it.
Do you mean to say that it was unreasonable for the US government to send an army out (across a treacherous journey, across Indian lands) to check on newly acquired lands (from Mexico), that were settled by a people that were led by men that fled the law after they were indicted, which group fled US territory for Mexico when they left, which group had a militia, the Mormon Battalion, was growing in number, etc., and which people religiously swore by blood oaths to curse and take revenge on the US government? Really? Did it seem heavy-handed and particularly laden with persecution?
Completely unreasonable. It’s the 1850s equivalent of launching an invasion on Iraq, Libya, or Syria. It wasn’t US territory. They had no business there whatsoever. Completely unnecessary and wrong.
What are you talking about? That is ridiculous hyperbole. Go reread your history again.

The Church started settling in Utah on July 24, 1847. The US acquired the land with the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo on Feb. 2, 1848. Utah was incorporated on Sept. 9, 1850. The Mormon rebellion/Utah War/Utah Expedition happened in 1857/58, some 7+ years after Utah was incorporated. It wasn't really a war and 80% of the 150 casualties were the Mormons killing 120 civilians in the infamous Mountain Meadows Massacre.

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ransomme
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by ransomme »

Baurak Ale wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:58 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:18 am
Luke wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:16 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:14 am

What do you call this? It’s like these men were just waiting to… umm…. *cough*
Yeah—because they were all Joseph’s wives and needed to be married off. Of course there’s going to be a load of marriages when a husband of 30+ dies. But it’s not what you’re describing it to be—as if polygamous marriages only begun in substance when JS died. These were wives he had acquired over a period of a few years.
Haha… sure, justify that however you like. I love how Briggy played the “proxy” husband for all of those women. Even taking some women away from MARRIED, living, men.

“Well fellas, I’m gonna take one for the team.”
Levity is not a winning characteristic.

Going back to the graph, how do you 'grapple' with Brigham's wives who were well beyond child-bearing years? Why do you think he would marry such women?
Actually, the survey says that a Sense of Humor is one of the leading traits people look for in selecting a partner. Just saying...

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Baurak Ale
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by Baurak Ale »

ransomme wrote: March 12th, 2023, 8:44 pm
Baurak Ale wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:58 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:18 am
Luke wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:16 am

Yeah—because they were all Joseph’s wives and needed to be married off. Of course there’s going to be a load of marriages when a husband of 30+ dies. But it’s not what you’re describing it to be—as if polygamous marriages only begun in substance when JS died. These were wives he had acquired over a period of a few years.
Haha… sure, justify that however you like. I love how Briggy played the “proxy” husband for all of those women. Even taking some women away from MARRIED, living, men.

“Well fellas, I’m gonna take one for the team.”
Levity is not a winning characteristic.

Going back to the graph, how do you 'grapple' with Brigham's wives who were well beyond child-bearing years? Why do you think he would marry such women?
Actually, the survey says that a Sense of Humor is one of the leading traits people look for in selecting a partner. Just saying...
I see a couple responses to me now about a sense of humor. Why?

Levity ≠ sense of humor
One is a sin, the other is a good quality.

My wife loves that I make her laugh every day.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

At least you can now have "loud laughter" since that has been removed from the temple ceremony.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by Cruiserdude »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 13th, 2023, 9:52 am At least you can now have "loud laughter" since that has been removed from the temple ceremony.
Whew..... I'm safe now ;D

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ransomme
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by ransomme »

Baurak Ale wrote: March 13th, 2023, 9:05 am
ransomme wrote: March 12th, 2023, 8:44 pm
Baurak Ale wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:58 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:18 am

Haha… sure, justify that however you like. I love how Briggy played the “proxy” husband for all of those women. Even taking some women away from MARRIED, living, men.

“Well fellas, I’m gonna take one for the team.”
Levity is not a winning characteristic.

Going back to the graph, how do you 'grapple' with Brigham's wives who were well beyond child-bearing years? Why do you think he would marry such women?
Actually, the survey says that a Sense of Humor is one of the leading traits people look for in selecting a partner. Just saying...
I see a couple responses to me now about a sense of humor. Why?

Levity ≠ sense of humor
One is a sin, the other is a good quality.

My wife loves that I make her laugh every day.
Interesting moral compass
Polygamy, or as the Lord called it, abomination and whoredom, is not a sin
&
Levity is a sin

Ok then...

Fun fact Jesus used sarcasm on several occasions in the Bible

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Alexander
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by Alexander »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 12th, 2023, 12:09 pm
JLHPROF wrote: March 12th, 2023, 12:03 pm
Baurak Ale wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:58 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:18 am

Haha… sure, justify that however you like. I love how Briggy played the “proxy” husband for all of those women. Even taking some women away from MARRIED, living, men.

“Well fellas, I’m gonna take one for the team.”
Levity is not a winning characteristic.

Going back to the graph, how do you 'grapple' with Brigham's wives who were well beyond child-bearing years? Why do you think he would marry such women?
He doesn't grapple with it.
The polygamy conspiracy crowd are completely incapable of seeing any nobility in polygamy. Throw in their misplaced hatred of Brigham Young and the smorgasbord approach to Joseph's historical records and they simply don't have to grapple with anything they don't like.
Just blame Brigham and walk away.
Nobility… really? You guys have turned an abomination into an idol.
Nobility like David, Solomon, King Noah, and Riplakish.

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JLHPROF
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by JLHPROF »

Alexander wrote: March 14th, 2023, 4:01 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 12th, 2023, 12:09 pm
JLHPROF wrote: March 12th, 2023, 12:03 pm
Baurak Ale wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:58 am

Levity is not a winning characteristic.

Going back to the graph, how do you 'grapple' with Brigham's wives who were well beyond child-bearing years? Why do you think he would marry such women?
He doesn't grapple with it.
The polygamy conspiracy crowd are completely incapable of seeing any nobility in polygamy. Throw in their misplaced hatred of Brigham Young and the smorgasbord approach to Joseph's historical records and they simply don't have to grapple with anything they don't like.
Just blame Brigham and walk away.
Nobility… really? You guys have turned an abomination into an idol.
Nobility like David, Solomon, King Noah, and Riplakish.
Nobility like Abraham, Israel, Moses, Gideon, the Brother of Jared, the Prophet Joseph, and the Savior.

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Alexander
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by Alexander »

JLHPROF wrote: March 14th, 2023, 5:35 pm
Alexander wrote: March 14th, 2023, 4:01 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 12th, 2023, 12:09 pm
JLHPROF wrote: March 12th, 2023, 12:03 pm

He doesn't grapple with it.
The polygamy conspiracy crowd are completely incapable of seeing any nobility in polygamy. Throw in their misplaced hatred of Brigham Young and the smorgasbord approach to Joseph's historical records and they simply don't have to grapple with anything they don't like.
Just blame Brigham and walk away.
Nobility… really? You guys have turned an abomination into an idol.
Nobility like David, Solomon, King Noah, and Riplakish.
Nobility like Abraham, Israel, Moses, Gideon, the Brother of Jared, the Prophet Joseph, and the Savior.
No no, you’ve got it wrong. Jesus was queer.

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JLHPROF
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by JLHPROF »

Alexander wrote: March 14th, 2023, 6:05 pm
JLHPROF wrote: March 14th, 2023, 5:35 pm
Alexander wrote: March 14th, 2023, 4:01 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 12th, 2023, 12:09 pm

Nobility… really? You guys have turned an abomination into an idol.
Nobility like David, Solomon, King Noah, and Riplakish.
Nobility like Abraham, Israel, Moses, Gideon, the Brother of Jared, the Prophet Joseph, and the Savior.
No no, you’ve got it wrong. Jesus was queer.
Yeah, you've said that before.
His wives beg to differ.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Wasn’t that Brigham’s son who was queer?

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

JLHPROF wrote: March 14th, 2023, 5:35 pm
Nobility like Abraham, Israel, Moses, Gideon, the Brother of Jared, the Prophet Joseph, and the Savior.
Correction: Abram and Jacob were.

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Alexander
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by Alexander »

JLHPROF wrote: March 14th, 2023, 10:15 pm
Alexander wrote: March 14th, 2023, 6:05 pm
JLHPROF wrote: March 14th, 2023, 5:35 pm
Nobility like Abraham, Israel, Moses, Gideon, the Brother of Jared, the Prophet Joseph, and the Savior.
No no, you’ve got it wrong. Jesus was queer.
Yeah, you've said that before.
His wives beg to differ.
They had giant faggy celestial orgies

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Luke
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by Luke »

Dusty Wanderer wrote: March 15th, 2023, 12:48 pm
JLHPROF wrote: March 14th, 2023, 5:35 pm
Nobility like Abraham, Israel, Moses, Gideon, the Brother of Jared, the Prophet Joseph, and the Savior.
Correction: Abram and Jacob were.
Did they get rid of their wives after being renamed?

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Luke wrote: March 18th, 2023, 7:36 am
Dusty Wanderer wrote: March 15th, 2023, 12:48 pm
JLHPROF wrote: March 14th, 2023, 5:35 pm
Nobility like Abraham, Israel, Moses, Gideon, the Brother of Jared, the Prophet Joseph, and the Savior.
Correction: Abram and Jacob were.
Did they get rid of their wives after being renamed?
They did not have any more children with them.

Why get rid of handmaids, who were only doing what their respective masters commanded them to do? How would that recompense them?

In Jacob's case, Leah did go away. Though, it's unclear if that was simply due to irreconcilable contentions in the household. Sad situation.

onefour1
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by onefour1 »

Here are few videos that do a good job of expressing doubt about Joseph Smith being a polygamist:

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Robin Hood
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by Robin Hood »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 13th, 2023, 9:52 am At least you can now have "loud laughter" since that has been removed from the temple ceremony.
HA HA HA HA HA....
doesn't feel the same now.

onefour1
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by onefour1 »

Here is additional evidence that Joseph did reveal section 132 back in 1843.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

onefour1 wrote: March 18th, 2023, 6:52 pm Here is additional evidence that Joseph did reveal section 132 back in 1843.
I'm glad we can now include "loud laughter." :)

It's funny he uses the word "facts" when discussing church history.

onefour1
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by onefour1 »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 18th, 2023, 7:03 pm
onefour1 wrote: March 18th, 2023, 6:52 pm Here is additional evidence that Joseph did reveal section 132 back in 1843.
I'm glad we can now include "loud laughter." :)

It's funny he uses the word "facts" when discussing church history.
So you don't believe they held a council or that they didn't discuss section 132 topics in that 1843 high council meeting?

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Polygamy Killed Honesty, Rob F.

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

onefour1 wrote: March 18th, 2023, 8:45 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 18th, 2023, 7:03 pm
onefour1 wrote: March 18th, 2023, 6:52 pm Here is additional evidence that Joseph did reveal section 132 back in 1843.
I'm glad we can now include "loud laughter." :)

It's funny he uses the word "facts" when discussing church history.
So you don't believe they held a council or that they didn't discuss section 132 topics in that 1843 high council meeting?
I’ve heard about that council meeting, whatever was discussed it wasn’t what Brigham rolled out later on. Subsequent discourses by the Smiths would suggest otherwise.

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