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Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 3:04 pm
by gradles21
Tell me what you guys see, I see five officers murder a great young man for going for his seatbelt.
Obviously the video is disturbing, so you've been warned.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 3:54 pm
by h_p
There's no audio on that one, but I did find another video that has more context.
https://www.abc4.com/news/wasatch-front ... -for-work/
It looks like he was refusing to exit the vehicle, they tried to remove him, and then he pulled a gun on the cops. The cops then shot him, as they had every right to. The guy's gun can be seen on the floor of the car after the shooting.
I wouldn't call this murder. Don't draw a gun on the police, and your chances of getting ventilated go way down.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 4:10 pm
by tmac
And you believe the cops?
But it’s true, messing with them is dangerous business, because they have license to kill, and they have mastered CYA.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 4:18 pm
by gradles21
h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 3:54 pm
There's no audio on that one, but I did find another video that has more context.
https://www.abc4.com/news/wasatch-front ... -for-work/
It looks like he was refusing to exit the vehicle, they tried to remove him, and then he pulled a gun on the cops. The cops then shot him, as they had every right to. The guy's gun can be seen on the floor of the car after the shooting.
I wouldn't call this murder. Don't draw a gun on the police, and your chances of getting ventilated go way down.
There's no evidence whatsoever that he pulled the gun on the cops. He was unbuckling his seatbelt.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 4:45 pm
by The Red Pill
I saw a murder.
Utah is constitutional carry...he can have a gun that's not a crime.
He didn't pull a gun, he didn't point a gun and he didn't fire a gun...gun was on the floor (maybe)
They sure as heck didn't have to "Bonnie and Clyde" him like they did.
Ridiculous amount of force used on a routine traffic stop. The police SAW a gun, not a gun pointed at them...big difference...then ventilated the poor kid.
So what if the kid was not cooperating...arrest him if necessary. Young males have attitude...cops know this.
Then after murdering the kid, they act like they were all totally fine with the whole thing.
There was a much better way to handle it.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 4:55 pm
by h_p
tmac wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 4:10 pm
And you believe the cops?
But it’s true, messing with them is dangerous business, because they have license to kill, and they have mastered CYA.
I'm basing my opinion on what I saw in the video. I'm a blank slate on this. I have no loyalty to the police or this guy.
I'll say this: if you are refusing to get out of your car, and the cops start to pull you out, and you reach toward the area of your body where your gun is--I don't care if it's your seatbelt buckle or the gun--it is entirely and completely reasonable for the police to come to the conclusion that you are going for your gun, and you don't have to wait until a gun is pointed at you to react in self defense. You might not like that, but that's how it is. That is what a reasonable person would think. It's what I would think, and I would have done the exact same thing the cops did.
The fact that his gun was on the floorboard tells me he was not reaching for his seatbelt. The cop didn't pull it out. That part's pretty clear to me. So who did? Anybody claiming this was murder needs to show some evidence that he was NOT reaching for his gun, and that it was clear to the cops that it was not reasonable to conclude he was pulling his gun. The cops are not presumed guilty just because they're cops.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 4:59 pm
by h_p
gradles21 wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 4:18 pm
There's no evidence whatsoever that he pulled the gun on the cops. He was unbuckling his seatbelt.
There's actually plenty of evidence. The gun can clearly be seen on the floorboard after the shooting. He had an empty holster. He could be seen reaching toward his right side hip as the officer went to get him out of the car.
Are you saying you think he was driving around with an empty holster and a gun rolling around on the floorboard underneath his feet, and the cops see the gun on the floor, but him going for his seatbelt as if he had a sudden change of mind to comply with the police, but decide to just blow him away for no reason?
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 5:06 pm
by tmac
You’ve skipped way past a whole bunch of basic fundamentals to jump to conclusions. What was the supposed justification for exercising force to pull him out of his car? The cops exercised initial, preliminary force. Why? What was their justification? What was the justification (probable cause) for stopping him? For searching (opening the door)? And, for seizing (grabbing) him? What was the foundational justification for exercising any force in the first place?
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 5:11 pm
by h_p
In the video at the link I posted, around around 2:07, Chase tells the officer that if they try to remove him, "we're going to have an issue". The cop opens the car door. Chase can be seen turning his body, putting his legs out of the car, and leaning back while reaching toward his right side. That's not how someone normally removes a seatbelt. The seatbelt buckle would not have been near his hip at that point. But it would be how someone would attempt to draw a gun while still belted in. That's when the cop started yelling "gun gun gun".
After Chase is removed from the car, the gun can be seen upside down on the floorboard, with the grip of the gun pointing up. Clearly it was not holstered or positioned in any way, shape or form to be accessible to the driver, so it could not have been put there intentionally as if he kept it there while driving. It was dropped.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 5:13 pm
by Fred
h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 4:55 pm
tmac wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 4:10 pm
And you believe the cops?
But it’s true, messing with them is dangerous business, because they have license to kill, and they have mastered CYA.
I'm basing my opinion on what I saw in the video. I'm a blank slate on this. I have no loyalty to the police or this guy.
I'll say this: if you are refusing to get out of your car, and the cops start to pull you out, and you reach toward the area of your body where your gun is--I don't care if it's your seatbelt buckle or the gun--it is entirely and completely reasonable for the police to come to the conclusion that you are going for your gun, and you don't have to wait until a gun is pointed at you to react in self defense. You might not like that, but that's how it is. That is what a reasonable person would think. It's what I would think, and I would have done the exact same thing the cops did.
The fact that his gun was on the floorboard tells me he was not reaching for his seatbelt. The cop didn't pull it out. That part's pretty clear to me. So who did? Anybody claiming this was murder needs to show some evidence that he was NOT reaching for his gun, and that it was clear to the cops that it was not reasonable to conclude he was pulling his gun. The cops are not presumed guilty just because they're cops.
Course, if they simply awarded every cop that turned on his reds and blues when there was no emergency, the death penalty, we wouldn't have police pulling people over in the first place, without a signed warrant. Traffic violations are not a crime.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 5:15 pm
by h_p
tmac wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 5:06 pm
You’ve skipped way past a whole bunch of basic fundamentals to jump to conclusions. What was the supposed justification for exercising force to pull him out of his car? The cops exercised initial, preliminary force. Why? What was their justification? What was the justification (probable cause) for stopping him? For searching (opening the door)? And, for seizing (grabbing) him? What was the foundational justification for exercising any force in the first place?
How does any of that matter? He drew a gun on them. He's the one who initiated deadly force, not them. They pulled him over because he didn't have a license plate on his car. Fine, that can be debated. I don't know. But he admitted to the police that his passport was fraudulent. That's when the police told him to get out. They didn't draw their guns until he started drawing his.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 5:18 pm
by tmac
Why were they trying to arrest (seize) him?
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 5:20 pm
by tmac
Was there reasonable justification to exercise force to seize him?
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 5:24 pm
by FoxMammaWisdom
It's funny on TV they have the intelligent officer tell everybody to calm down for a minute and then he talks the guy out of the car and nobody gets hurt. I know it's just TV we don't do that in real life.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 5:33 pm
by h_p
Nobody would have gotten hurt if he hadn't pulled a gun--ie, tried to kill the officers, FoxMamma.
tmac, they were arresting him for having a fraudulent passport. And yes, that's reasonable justification for exercising force to seize him. The force they initiated was non-deadly, and well within their authority as law enforcement officers. Chase went straight to deadly force. Thus, he's the bad guy, and now he's dead. Good riddance. One less murderer in the world.
You people might not like it, but that's the law, and unless somebody can provide evidence where I'm wrong, you're all just sounding like people who think cops have to just let people kill them just because they're cops.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 6:00 pm
by tmac
Are you a cop? You sound like one.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 6:38 pm
by h_p
tmac wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 6:00 pm
Are you a cop? You sound like one.
What makes me sound like a cop?
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 6:49 pm
by HVDC
h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 4:59 pm
gradles21 wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 4:18 pm
There's no evidence whatsoever that he pulled the gun on the cops. He was unbuckling his seatbelt.
There's actually plenty of evidence. The gun can clearly be seen on the floorboard after the shooting. He had an empty holster. He could be seen reaching toward his right side hip as the officer went to get him out of the car.
Are you saying you think he was driving around with an empty holster and a gun rolling around on the floorboard underneath his feet, and the cops see the gun on the floor, but him going for his seatbelt as if he had a sudden change of mind to comply with the police, but decide to just blow him away for no reason?
In general I would agree with you.
But after looking at both videos.
I am not sure this was a necessary shooting.
It was however a good shooting.
It looks to me that it meets all of the criteria for shooting a White kid.
One who has been poorly advised to resist authority.
He was clearly unprepared to deal with reality.
And survive.
No sign of intoxication or drug use.
He may have simply removed the gun and dropped it on the floor.
It's what I would have done in a similar situation.
From his language and behaviour.
I don't believe he intended to shoot them.
But I don't know that.
And neither did they.
Best to convince them of that if you don't want to get killed.
By complying.
I think the police generally see what they are trained to see.
The best thing is to do is make them see that one is not a threat.
Good thing he wasn't Black.
That would have made it a bad shooting.
They might have handled it differently too.
Tragic.
Sir H
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 7:00 pm
by HVDC
tmac wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 5:06 pm
You’ve skipped way past a whole bunch of basic fundamentals to jump to conclusions. What was the supposed justification for exercising force to pull him out of his car? The cops exercised initial, preliminary force. Why? What was their justification? What was the justification (probable cause) for stopping him? For searching (opening the door)? And, for seizing (grabbing) him? What was the foundational justification for exercising any force in the first place?
I'm guessing the "Sovereign" license plate.
There have been incidents before with these groups.
Police are also trained to expect resistance up to and including violence when dealing with them.
So they are trained to act exactly how they did.
Notice the number of officers and how they all took the opportunity to shoot.
Exactly as trained.
I've know many cops.
They will have no remorse for a shooting like this.
High fives all around.
My advice.
Comply or die.
Sir H
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 7:08 pm
by Fred
There is NO legitimate reason to license any vehicle. Anyone saying otherwise is a lying bastard and evil prick.
I remember as a kid when the worthless POS government wanted farmers to register tractors. The farmers ask why? Give us one good reason. The liars in government said so if stolen it could be recovered. All farmers immediately wanted to puke at such a lie. The farmers said "Shove it up your arse. We would rather a tractor be stolen than registered." The farmers won. My cousin was one of the thousands that went to the white house to educate the democrat President Kennedy about private property.
But moron citizens have let government remove one right after another without a single whimper.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 7:11 pm
by FoxMammaWisdom
h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 5:33 pm
Nobody would have gotten hurt if he hadn't pulled a gun--ie, tried to kill the officers, FoxMamma.
tmac, they were arresting him for having a fraudulent passport. And yes, that's reasonable justification for exercising force to seize him. The force they initiated was non-deadly, and well within their authority as law enforcement officers. Chase went straight to deadly force. Thus, he's the bad guy, and now he's dead. Good riddance. One less murderer in the world.
You people might not like it, but that's the law, and unless somebody can provide evidence where I'm wrong, you're all just sounding like people who think cops have to just let people kill them just because they're cops.
Ya the cops thought I had a gun too when the entire swat team came in my home guns at my face for no damn reason - I had done nothing wrong, they violated our rights, and I STILL didn't have a gun. I sure unintentionally scared the entire Santa Clara/Ivins UT police force just bc someone said "gun". Glad they didn't shoot me in front of my kid that day! But what they DID do with their psycho nazi controlling power BS changed mine and my son's existence forever in a very bad way. Cops forget their oath AND WHO THEY SERVE, every damn day.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 7:12 pm
by gradles21
h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 4:59 pm
gradles21 wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 4:18 pm
There's no evidence whatsoever that he pulled the gun on the cops. He was unbuckling his seatbelt.
There's actually plenty of evidence. The gun can clearly be seen on the floorboard after the shooting. He had an empty holster. He could be seen reaching toward his right side hip as the officer went to get him out of the car.
Are you saying you think he was driving around with an empty holster and a gun rolling around on the floorboard underneath his feet, and the cops see the gun on the floor, but him going for his seatbelt as if he had a sudden change of mind to comply with the police, but decide to just blow him away for no reason?
It's possible the gun fell out of his holster when they dragged his corpse out of the car, leather holsters have bad retention, but i don't know and neither do you. Go grab a holster and a full size handgun and recreate this scene in your own vehicle. With the gun underneath the seatbelt and a coat your not going to be able to upholster that gun as fast as he would've had to. His phone was in his right hand until the second that cop reached in to grab him, he simply didn't have enough time to unholster his gun.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 7:15 pm
by tmac
h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 6:38 pm
tmac wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 6:00 pm
Are you a cop? You sound like one.
What makes me sound like a cop?
Because you can only see that side of the equation, and that side of the story. Most cops are very single dimensional. They think that everybody but cops are criminals. They love to pick on people, and especially people like this — anyone who doesn’t go around licking their boots. They have a license to kill, and many of them love to exercise it. That’s why many of them are cops in the first place — so they can have that license. And Sir H is right, they love to take out guys like this, and are often just looking for an excuse and the slightest provocation. High fives all around. Off camera of course.
Now it is true - maybe this guy was an aspiring cop-killer. Maybe his the one who was just looking for an excuse. I can’t rule out that possibility, but I’ve been around this block enough to know that that mentality is a lot more exceptional than cops who aren’t looking for a good excuse to exercise their license — especially against anyone who is slow to bow to their authority and lick their boots.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 7:16 pm
by gradles21
Fred wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:08 pm
There is NO legitimate reason to license any vehicle. Anyone saying otherwise is a lying bastard and evil prick.
I remember as a kid when the worthless POS government wanted farmers to register tractors. The farmers ask why? Give us one good reason. The liars in government said so if stolen it could be recovered. All farmers immediately wanted to puke at such a lie. The farmers said "Shove it up your arse. We would rather a tractor be stolen than registered." The farmers won. My cousin was one of the thousands that went to the white house to educate the democrat President Kennedy about private property.
But moron citizens have let government remove one right after another without a single whimper.
You are absolutely correct Fred, you don't need a license to exercise your right to travel.
Re: Chase Allan, murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt
Posted: March 8th, 2023, 7:19 pm
by h_p
HVDC wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 6:49 pm
In general I would agree with you.
But after looking at both videos.
I am not sure this was a necessary shooting.
You go to arrest someone who has just maybe 10 seconds ago said "I'm not required to get out, and if you try to force me out, we're going to have issues", then reaches for, and apparently draws, a gun when you try to force him out. I don't think it takes a committee of mathematicians to deduce that what he meant by "issues" is your imminent death.
Yeah, I guess they should have just stood there and hoped all the rounds he fired at them would impact their kevlar, and then he'd give up and check himself into the police station. Or they could just stop enforcing the law altogether, since apparently everybody has the right to make up their own laws.
Seriously, what planet are you people living on? Did I accidentally log into an Antifa website? Maybe all the Utah cop-haters should declare an autonomous zone like those commies in Portland did. That'll work out great!
