LDS Freedom Forum

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:11 pm Ya the cops thought I had a gun too when the entire swat team came in my home guns at my face for no damn reason - I had done nothing wrong, they violated our rights, and I STILL didn't have a gun. I sure unintentionally scared the entire Santa Clara/Ivins UT police force just bc someone said "gun". Glad they didn't shoot me in front of my kid that day! But what they DID do with their psycho nazi controlling power BS changed mine and my son's existence forever in a very bad way. Cops forget their oath AND WHO THEY SERVE, every damn day.

Except in this case, he did have a gun, and he reached for it. Your experience sounds terrible, and I'm in no way justifying what was done to you. But that has absolutely nothing to do with this incident.

Fred wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:08 pm There is NO legitimate reason to license any vehicle. Anyone saying otherwise is a lying bastard and evil prick.

I remember as a kid when the worthless POS government wanted farmers to register tractors. The farmers ask why? Give us one good reason. The liars in government said so if stolen it could be recovered. All farmers immediately wanted to puke at such a lie. The farmers said "Shove it up your arse. We would rather a tractor be stolen than registered." The farmers won. My cousin was one of the thousands that went to the white house to educate the democrat President Kennedy about private property.

But moron citizens have let government remove one right after another without a single whimper.

All true.

But...

Sir H

h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:20 pm

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:11 pm Ya the cops thought I had a gun too when the entire swat team came in my home guns at my face for no damn reason - I had done nothing wrong, they violated our rights, and I STILL didn't have a gun. I sure unintentionally scared the entire Santa Clara/Ivins UT police force just bc someone said "gun". Glad they didn't shoot me in front of my kid that day! But what they DID do with their psycho nazi controlling power BS changed mine and my son's existence forever in a very bad way. Cops forget their oath AND WHO THEY SERVE, every damn day.

Except in this case, he did have a gun, and he reached for it. Your experience sounds terrible, and I'm in no way justifying what was done to you. But that has absolutely nothing to do with this incident.

In every experience I've had, ops use a lot more force than they need to. They do not make a habit of following their oaths in ANY of my experiences. They are paranoid. If they hear about or see a gun, it doesn't mean they have to shoot.

And the video did not show ME anything that warranted murder.

Are cops not taught de-escalation tactics? I have no idea why they didn't try that first. I'm sure the guy was scared.

h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:19 pm

HVDC wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 6:49 pm In general I would agree with you.

But after looking at both videos.

I am not sure this was a necessary shooting.

You go to arrest someone who has just maybe 10 seconds ago said "I'm not required to get out, and if you try to force me out, we're going to have issues", then reaches for, and apparently draws, a gun when you try to force him out. I don't think it takes a committee of mathematicians to deduce that what he meant by "issues" is your imminent death.

Yeah, I guess they should have just stood there and hoped all the rounds he fired at them would impact their kevlar, and then he'd give up and check himself into the police station. Or they could just stop enforcing the law altogether, since apparently everybody has the right to make up their own laws.

Seriously, what planet are you people living on? Did I accidentally log into an Antifa website? Maybe all the Utah cop-haters should declare an autonomous zone like those commies in Portland did. That'll work out great!

Well, there is no law that says a vehicle must be registered. Rules, regulations, ordinances, and statutes, have all been ruled by the Supreme Court as NOT laws. So really, it was the worthless POS cop that was breaking the law. The law that says people need no papers to travel. So really, the guy would have been correct in shooting the cop. Maybe dead right. But right.

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:11 pm

h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 5:33 pm Nobody would have gotten hurt if he hadn't pulled a gun--ie, tried to kill the officers, FoxMamma.

tmac, they were arresting him for having a fraudulent passport. And yes, that's reasonable justification for exercising force to seize him. The force they initiated was non-deadly, and well within their authority as law enforcement officers. Chase went straight to deadly force. Thus, he's the bad guy, and now he's dead. Good riddance. One less murderer in the world.

You people might not like it, but that's the law, and unless somebody can provide evidence where I'm wrong, you're all just sounding like people who think cops have to just let people kill them just because they're cops.

Ya the cops thought I had a gun too when the entire swat team came in my home guns at my face for no damn reason - I had done nothing wrong, they violated our rights, and I STILL didn't have a gun. I sure unintentionally scared the entire Santa Clara/Ivins UT police force just bc someone said "gun". Glad they didn't shoot me in front of my kid that day! But what they DID do with their psycho nazi controlling power BS changed mine and my son's existence forever in a very bad way. Cops forget their oath AND WHO THEY SERVE, every damn day.

I once represented the family of a young Native American man in WVC who they swiftly executed in his home because another cop chimed in on the radio traffic that he was known to own a .22 rifle. So they completely hit the panic button, and marched in the house and shot him. But there was no gun in the house.

And I also represented the family of another Native American man who was a passenger in a vehicle driven by a white guy DUI on the reservation. When the car stopped, the completely unarmed passenger got out and fled on foot, so a hero cop tried to tackle and apprehend him by himself, but when he figured out that maybe he had bitten off a little more than he could chew, he just pulled his gun and shot and killed him.

In both cases, I’m sure there were plenty of High-5s all around. Afterall, the only good Indian is a dead Indian.

tmac wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:15 pm Because you can only see that side of the equation, that side of the story. Most cops are very single dimensional. They think that everybody but cops are criminals. They love to pick in people, and especially people like this — anyone who doesn’t go around licking their boots. They have a license to kill, and many of them love to exercise it. That’s why many of them are cops in the first place — so they can have that license. And Sir H is right, they love to take out guys like this, and are often just looking for an excuse and the slightest provocation. High fives all around. Off camera of course.

You're making some pretty wild generalizations about me.

And no, I'm not a cop. And just because I think the cops were justified IN THIS SINGLE INSTANCE does not mean I'm some brainless big-government tyrant-loving bootlicker. Give me a break.

I've seen plenty of videos of cops behaving like thugs and murderers, and I've condemned them for it even harder than I'm condemning Chase Allan here. I'm not anti-cop. I'm anti bad cop. And I'm anti-murderous thug. I follow the law, and expect everybody else to do so, too.

We can debate whether cars should have license plates, and what cops should be allowed to pull people over for. But none of that is relevant here. The topic of this thread makes the claim that Chase was murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt. I'm giving what I see is counter-evidence to that claim. All you've been able to do is accuse me of things that are entirely untrue.

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:25 pm

h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:20 pm

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:11 pm Ya the cops thought I had a gun too when the entire swat team came in my home guns at my face for no damn reason - I had done nothing wrong, they violated our rights, and I STILL didn't have a gun. I sure unintentionally scared the entire Santa Clara/Ivins UT police force just bc someone said "gun". Glad they didn't shoot me in front of my kid that day! But what they DID do with their psycho nazi controlling power BS changed mine and my son's existence forever in a very bad way. Cops forget their oath AND WHO THEY SERVE, every damn day.

Except in this case, he did have a gun, and he reached for it. Your experience sounds terrible, and I'm in no way justifying what was done to you. But that has absolutely nothing to do with this incident.

In every experience I've had, ops use a lot more force than they need to. They do not make a habit of following their oaths in ANY of my experiences. They are paranoid. If they hear about or see a gun, it doesn't mean they have to shoot.

And the video did not show ME anything that warranted murder.

Are cops not taught de-escalation tactics? I have no idea why they didn't try that first. I'm sure the guy was scared.

Generally yes.

They are trained.

One cop.

Might try de-escalation.

But in front of his buddies.

Nope.

Group psychology.

Enhanced by testosterone.

Female cops do it too.

They escalate even faster.

Just less likely to get physical.

(Unless they are taking testosterone, most do nowadays, you can tell)

More likely to escalate verbally.

Then stand back and let the men show off.

Truth.

Not animals?

Sure.

Jungle out there.

Just looks like a Zoo.

Sir H

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:25 pm In every experience I've had, ops use a lot more force than they need to. They do not make a habit of following their oaths in ANY of my experiences. They are paranoid. If they hear about or see a gun, it doesn't mean they have to shoot.

And the video did not show ME anything that warranted murder.

Are cops not taught de-escalation tactics? I have no idea why they didn't try that first. I'm sure the guy was scared.

They did de-escalate. They shot him when he started reaching for his gun. That's really the only kind of de-escalation that would work in that situation.

I've been pulled over 3 times now while I was armed. None of those situations ended with either them or me pulling a gun. Crazy, I know, but it happens sometimes.

And again, none of this is relevant to what Chase did.

h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:32 pm

tmac wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:15 pm Because you can only see that side of the equation, that side of the story. Most cops are very single dimensional. They think that everybody but cops are criminals. They love to pick in people, and especially people like this — anyone who doesn’t go around licking their boots. They have a license to kill, and many of them love to exercise it. That’s why many of them are cops in the first place — so they can have that license. And Sir H is right, they love to take out guys like this, and are often just looking for an excuse and the slightest provocation. High fives all around. Off camera of course.

You're making some pretty wild generalizations about me.

And no, I'm not a cop. And just because I think the cops were justified IN THIS SINGLE INSTANCE does not mean I'm some brainless big-government tyrant-loving bootlicker. Give me a break.

I've seen plenty of videos of cops behaving like thugs and murderers, and I've condemned them for it even harder than I'm condemning Chase Allan here. I'm not anti-cop. I'm anti bad cop. And I'm anti-murderous thug. I follow the law, and expect everybody else to do so, too.

We can debate whether cars should have license plates, and what cops should be allowed to pull people over for. But none of that is relevant here. The topic of this thread makes the claim that Chase was murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt. I'm giving what I see is counter-evidence to that claim. All you've been able to do is accuse me of things that are entirely untrue.

We have millions of totally useless laws. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again — Malum in Se versus Malum Prohibitum — but do you even know what that means?

What inherent evil is there in driving a car without a license plate — and/or a million other completely useless laws, all designed for the primary purpose of enslaving people and taking their money?

tmac wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:28 pm

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:11 pm

h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 5:33 pm Nobody would have gotten hurt if he hadn't pulled a gun--ie, tried to kill the officers, FoxMamma.

tmac, they were arresting him for having a fraudulent passport. And yes, that's reasonable justification for exercising force to seize him. The force they initiated was non-deadly, and well within their authority as law enforcement officers. Chase went straight to deadly force. Thus, he's the bad guy, and now he's dead. Good riddance. One less murderer in the world.

You people might not like it, but that's the law, and unless somebody can provide evidence where I'm wrong, you're all just sounding like people who think cops have to just let people kill them just because they're cops.

Ya the cops thought I had a gun too when the entire swat team came in my home guns at my face for no damn reason - I had done nothing wrong, they violated our rights, and I STILL didn't have a gun. I sure unintentionally scared the entire Santa Clara/Ivins UT police force just bc someone said "gun". Glad they didn't shoot me in front of my kid that day! But what they DID do with their psycho nazi controlling power BS changed mine and my son's existence forever in a very bad way. Cops forget their oath AND WHO THEY SERVE, every damn day.

I once represented the family of a young Native American man in WVC who they swiftly executed in his home because another cop chimed in on the radio traffic that he was known to own a .22 rifle. So they completely hit the panic button, and marched in the house and shot him. But there was no gun in the house.

And I also represented the family of another Native American man who was a passenger in a vehicle driven by a white guy DUI on the reservation. When the car stopped, the completely unarmed passenger got out and fled on foot, so a hero cop tried to tackle and apprehend him by himself, but when he figured out that maybe he had bitten off a little more than he could chew, he just pulled his gun and shot and killed him.

In both cases, I’m sure there were plenty of High-5s all around. Afterall, the only good Indian is a dead Indian.

Blows my mind that crap still happens in modern society. If there's ever a people that deserve to be defended, it's the Natives.

Edit: okay I've taken this way off track. I'm out.

But the bottom line is, whether we like it or not, cops have a license to kill, and will exercise it at the drop of a hat, so it pays to acknowledge that and realize that if you play with fire there’s a real good chance you’re going to get burned.

h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:32 pm

tmac wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:15 pm Because you can only see that side of the equation, that side of the story. Most cops are very single dimensional. They think that everybody but cops are criminals. They love to pick in people, and especially people like this — anyone who doesn’t go around licking their boots. They have a license to kill, and many of them love to exercise it. That’s why many of them are cops in the first place — so they can have that license. And Sir H is right, they love to take out guys like this, and are often just looking for an excuse and the slightest provocation. High fives all around. Off camera of course.

We can debate whether cars should have license plates, and what cops should be allowed to pull people over for. But none of that is relevant here. The topic of this thread makes the claim that Chase was murdered for unbuckling his seatbelt. I'm giving what I see is counter-evidence to that claim. All you've been able to do is accuse me of things that are entirely untrue.

This is important because if he was within his rights to drive a car without a license plate then the cop was not justified in detaining him. So what did we witness in this video? Five armed thugs that blocked in his car and attempted to kidnap him.

tmac wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:41 pm But the bottom line is, whether we like it or not, cops have a license to kill, and will exercise it at the drop of a hat, so it pays to acknowledge that and realize that if you play with fire there’s a real good chance you’re going to get burned.

I hope his mom wins her appeal, and then I hope she's goes after this police department and sues them into oblivion, this is the only way anything changes, unfortunately.

It never changes. Between liability insurance and qualified immunity (which precludes personal liability), nothing ever changes. It just endlessly feeds the lawyers.

tmac wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:57 pm It never changes. Between liability insurance and qualified immunity (which precludes personal liability), nothing ever changes. It just endlessly feeds the lawyers.

Ultimately.

Americans need to understand a few things.

You do not live in a free country.

You are not a free and sovereign person.

The Constitution is not the law of the land.

Everything you think you know is probably wrong.

And.

If you believe otherwise.

And act on that belief.

You might end up being.

Chased.

As long as you flow with the current.

You won't notice it.

But you will go where it goes.

Hope that's where you want to go.

Sir H

tmac wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:38 pm We have millions of totally useless laws. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again — Malum in Se versus Malum Prohibitum — but do you even know what that means?

What inherent evil is there in driving a car without a license plate — and/or a million other completely useless laws, all designed for the primary purpose of enslaving people and take their money?

Would you even believe that I agree with you?

Here in Texas, for about 100+ years, we were not allowed to legally carry a handgun unless we were "traveling" and "traveling" had no legal definition, so every jurisdiction was free to make up their own rules. It was ridiculous and tyrannical. But some good people back in the 90's got that law changed to where we could get a license to carry. And then a couple years ago, a bunch of us managed to restore the right lost to us 150 years ago, and now we can carry without a license. None of that effort involved pointing guns at people.

It boils my blood that there are civil forfeiture laws on the books, where cops can just assume someone's property was illegally obtained, and take it from them. There are tons of other laws that are oppressive that need to disappear off the books. I'd like to see a lot fewer laws in this country. I'd like to see a lot less government. But I'm still hoping there are peaceful avenues to get to that point. I'd much rather spend all night testifying to the legislature to repeal a law than start shooting people.

h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 8:05 pm

tmac wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:38 pm We have millions of totally useless laws. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again — Malum in Se versus Malum Prohibitum — but do you even know what that means?

What inherent evil is there in driving a car without a license plate — and/or a million other completely useless laws, all designed for the primary purpose of enslaving people and take their money?

Would you even believe that I agree with you?

Here in Texas, for about 100+ years, we were not allowed to legally carry a handgun unless we were "traveling" and "traveling" had no legal definition, so every jurisdiction was free to make up their own rules. It was ridiculous and tyrannical. But some good people back in the 90's got that law changed to where we could get a license to carry. And then a couple years ago, a bunch of us managed to restore the right lost to us 150 years ago, and now we can carry without a license. None of that effort involved pointing guns at people.

It boils my blood that there are civil forfeiture laws on the books, where cops can just assume someone's property was illegally obtained, and take it from them. There are tons of other laws that are oppressive that need to disappear off the books. I'd like to see a lot fewer laws in this country. I'd like to see a lot less government. But I'm still hoping there are peaceful avenues to get to that point. I'd much rather spend all night testifying to the legislature to repeal a law than start shooting people.

I think the Founding Fathers did not want a war, either. But, we have lost leadership by and for the people. The only real edge we have is that we outnumber them, and are armed.

h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:19 pm

HVDC wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 6:49 pm In general I would agree with you.

But after looking at both videos.

I am not sure this was a necessary shooting.

You go to arrest someone who has just maybe 10 seconds ago said "I'm not required to get out, and if you try to force me out, we're going to have issues", then reaches for, and apparently draws, a gun when you try to force him out. I don't think it takes a committee of mathematicians to deduce that what he meant by "issues" is your imminent death.

Yeah, I guess they should have just stood there and hoped all the rounds he fired at them would impact their kevlar, and then he'd give up and check himself into the police station. Or they could just stop enforcing the law altogether, since apparently everybody has the right to make up their own laws.

Seriously, what planet are you people living on? Did I accidentally log into an Antifa website? Maybe all the Utah cop-haters should declare an autonomous zone like those commies in Portland did. That'll work out great!

It was in Seattle called chop...amd several people were murdered and no cops botherd to investigate as they were relegated to other precincts by the commies. Now if you travel in some parts of downtown Seattle and Portland you are risking your life and your property.....the cops were defunded and now quietly they are again being funded because it isn't a good situation for anyone who lives in these areas. However, the protect and serve portion of the cops job has been changed....and most people feel very cautious when they get pulled over. My husband and I have been pulled over for a traffic violation and ended up outside the vehicle with our hands on the front of the car while the cop waited for back up all because my husband has a concealed gun permit....the officer came to the door with gun drawn...for what....a 10 mile over the speed limit? We cooperated....waited for the other officer to arrive...they had guns drawn on us while my husband explained where his gun was. They took the gun from him and then they talked back in their car. After a few minutes they told us we could get back in our car, gave us back our weapon and let us go without even a warning....we still have no idea what that was all about. We were speeding as my husband has a lead foot......sooo write a speeding ticket and send us on our way....there is a problem with the police...a fundamental problem......i don't hate cops....i support them if they are there to serve and protect but that doesn't seem to be the mission these days...js

I know some very good police officers but I will never trust the police force as a whole.

farmerchick wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 8:34 pm It was in Seattle called chop...amd several people were murdered and no cops botherd to investigate as they were relegated to other precincts by the commies. Now if you travel in some parts of downtown Seattle and Portland you are risking your life and your property.....the cops were defunded and now quietly they are again being funded because it isn't a good situation for anyone who lives in these areas. However, the protect and serve portion of the cops job has been changed....and most people feel very cautious when they get pulled over. My husband and I have been pulled over for a traffic violation and ended up outside the vehicle with our hands on the front of the car while the cop waited for back up all because my husband has a concealed gun permit....the officer came to the door with gun drawn...for what....a 10 mile over the speed limit? We cooperated....waited for the other officer to arrive...they had guns drawn on us while my husband explained where his gun was. They took the gun from him and then they talked back in their car. After a few minutes they told us we could get back in our car, gave us back our weapon and let us go without even a warning....we still have no idea what that was all about. We were speeding as my husband has a lead foot......sooo write a speeding ticket and send us on our way....there is a problem with the police...a fundamental problem......i don't hate cops....i support them if they are there to serve and protect but that doesn't seem to be the mission these days...js

I delayed getting a permit for a long time because one of the first stories I heard was a permit-holder getting spread-eagled out on the ground for driving while armed. I get it. The first time I was pulled over while armed I was super nervous. I still am, and I make sure I keep my hands in plain view the whole time. Fortunately, I haven't had any bad experiences. They all just asked where the gun was and told me not to reach for it. Not saying everybody should expect the same, it's just my experience.

I've seen plenty of instances of cops acting like thugs. And I think they get the benefit of the doubt more than they should in a lot of cases. But I think this is all just more reason to be as fair and balanced as possible when judging them. Excise the bad, reward the good. It's a tightrope balancing act, and will never be perfect.

In this case, though, I don't see anything the cops did that was wrong. Maybe they could have argued for several hours with the guy hoping he'd give in. But I have yet to see a "sovereign citizen" change their mind when encountering a cop. Whatever, they were well within their authority to pull him from the car, and well within their human rights to defend themselves from someone trying to kill them.

Good job, officers. You rid the world of a dirtbag scum and came out unscathed. Your families are surely saying prayers of gratitude that you all were able to go home to them after your shift.

farmerchick wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 8:34 pm

h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:19 pm

HVDC wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 6:49 pm In general I would agree with you.

But after looking at both videos.

I am not sure this was a necessary shooting.

You go to arrest someone who has just maybe 10 seconds ago said "I'm not required to get out, and if you try to force me out, we're going to have issues", then reaches for, and apparently draws, a gun when you try to force him out. I don't think it takes a committee of mathematicians to deduce that what he meant by "issues" is your imminent death.

Yeah, I guess they should have just stood there and hoped all the rounds he fired at them would impact their kevlar, and then he'd give up and check himself into the police station. Or they could just stop enforcing the law altogether, since apparently everybody has the right to make up their own laws.

Seriously, what planet are you people living on? Did I accidentally log into an Antifa website? Maybe all the Utah cop-haters should declare an autonomous zone like those commies in Portland did. That'll work out great!

It was in Seattle called chop...amd several people were murdered and no cops botherd to investigate as they were relegated to other precincts by the commies. Now if you travel in some parts of downtown Seattle and Portland you are risking your life and your property.....the cops were defunded and now quietly they are again being funded because it isn't a good situation for anyone who lives in these areas. However, the protect and serve portion of the cops job has been changed....and most people feel very cautious when they get pulled over. My husband and I have been pulled over for a traffic violation and ended up outside the vehicle with our hands on the front of the car while the cop waited for back up all because my husband has a concealed gun permit....the officer came to the door with gun drawn...for what....a 10 mile over the speed limit? We cooperated....waited for the other officer to arrive...they had guns drawn on us while my husband explained where his gun was. They took the gun from him and then they talked back in their car. After a few minutes they told us we could get back in our car, gave us back our weapon and let us go without even a warning....we still have no idea what that was all about. We were speeding as my husband has a lead foot......sooo write a speeding ticket and send us on our way....there is a problem with the police...a fundamental problem......i don't hate cops....i support them if they are there to serve and protect but that doesn't seem to be the mission these days...js

No cop serves or protects anyone besides satan. I personally do not think it is likely for a cop to be a good cop. My ex brother in law is a deputy in Wyoming and no one that I have ever heard of is more wicked than him. I did get pulled over by a sheriff deputy in Utah and we had a nice chat. He did not give me a ticket. We discussed how only a sheriff is an authorized police force. He is probably as close to a good cop as exists. Not because he never gave me a ticket. He told me how he parks on a hill and waits for speeders. If they slow down when they see him, he lets them go as he has done his job. Only if they blast past him does he pull them over. He explained how he stops and helps people. Even changed a tire for a woman. But in a state police force, he would be terminated for not being satanic. Most police are revenue collectors. No amount of good that they could ever do could compensate for the evil they have already done.

The time is probably not far off when a badge will simply be a target. See them, kill them. Make the world a better place. Doing one's share by taking the garbage out. If a cop says he fights crime, he is a liar. He is the crime. The best way to end crime is to arm everyone. The criminals will soon be killed. The penalty for pulling a car over without a warrant or probable cause that a real crime has been committed should be the death penalty. That would allow a 98% reduction in police with no difference whatsoever on the crime rate. Revenue collectors do not prevent crime. They are the crime.

I know a lot of cops. Most are pretty cool dudes on the surface when they are not being cops. But most are terribly hypocritical. They brag about drug use drunk driving excessive speeding and a lot of actual dangerous and real criminal behavior that they engage in both off and on duty. Then they go bust people for the same things. They are very very dangerous. Even off duty they are very jumpy. Escalation is default in my experience.

That said we as a nation have likely passed the point where we can be governed by just laws, save it be to our destruction. If the cops are involved because they were summoned it means someone is having a really bad day maybe the worst of their life. If the cops show up on their own someone is definitely having a bad day. It’s thug enforcement or letting the real criminals run loose like seattle and Portland for example. There seems to be no in between.

On a happy note here, a state trooper had the stones to stand up to some long time serious corruption in the sheriffs office. It will likely end in a number of high level resignations. The inciting incident was the sheriffs son (a deputy) crashing head on in a drunken stupor, into a car, causing serious injuries. He then had other deputies whisk him away from the scene and take him home where he continued drinking. then they tried to pin it on the other drivers. This has been done many times with this guy but never as severe a wreck as this one. Fortunately the state dude stood up against it. there are state level investigations and the whole house of cards is crashing!

h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 8:54 pm

farmerchick wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 8:34 pm It was in Seattle called chop...amd several people were murdered and no cops botherd to investigate as they were relegated to other precincts by the commies. Now if you travel in some parts of downtown Seattle and Portland you are risking your life and your property.....the cops were defunded and now quietly they are again being funded because it isn't a good situation for anyone who lives in these areas. However, the protect and serve portion of the cops job has been changed....and most people feel very cautious when they get pulled over. My husband and I have been pulled over for a traffic violation and ended up outside the vehicle with our hands on the front of the car while the cop waited for back up all because my husband has a concealed gun permit....the officer came to the door with gun drawn...for what....a 10 mile over the speed limit? We cooperated....waited for the other officer to arrive...they had guns drawn on us while my husband explained where his gun was. They took the gun from him and then they talked back in their car. After a few minutes they told us we could get back in our car, gave us back our weapon and let us go without even a warning....we still have no idea what that was all about. We were speeding as my husband has a lead foot......sooo write a speeding ticket and send us on our way....there is a problem with the police...a fundamental problem......i don't hate cops....i support them if they are there to serve and protect but that doesn't seem to be the mission these days...js

I delayed getting a permit for a long time because one of the first stories I heard was a permit-holder getting spread-eagled out on the ground for driving while armed. I get it. The first time I was pulled over while armed I was super nervous. I still am, and I make sure I keep my hands in plain view the whole time. Fortunately, I haven't had any bad experiences. They all just asked where the gun was and told me not to reach for it. Not saying everybody should expect the same, it's just my experience.

I've seen plenty of instances of cops acting like thugs. And I think they get the benefit of the doubt more than they should in a lot of cases. But I think this is all just more reason to be as fair and balanced as possible when judging them. Excise the bad, reward the good. It's a tightrope balancing act, and will never be perfect.

In this case, though, I don't see anything the cops did that was wrong. Maybe they could have argued for several hours with the guy hoping he'd give in. But I have yet to see a "sovereign citizen" change their mind when encountering a cop. Whatever, they were well within their authority to pull him from the car, and well within their human rights to defend themselves from someone trying to kill them.

Good job, officers. You rid the world of a dirtbag scum and came out unscathed. Your families are surely saying prayers of gratitude that you all were able to go home to them after your shift.

We are law abiding tax paying citizens....my husband legally obtained his ccp. We do not have police records and are involved in our community. My husband is a speeder and gets a ticket once every few years....we used to just get pulled over and answer the wsp officers questions and wait to see if they would give him a ticket.....i never speed by the way...lol...i drive like a fast grandma...but I do not speed. Anyway, why should the wsp or any other officers of the law come up to your car with guns drawn for a speeding ticket driven by a known usually law abiding citizen like they do now? All registrations, licenses, insurance etc are known by the officer when they pull you over. They know who you are.....yet there are laws on the Books preventing cops to address theft under 2000.00 or property damage or drug usage or possession. Cops can't chase criminals anymore in Washington state. Prosecutors won't prosecute drug, property crime in most cases. People can riot and burn down the down towns of cities and nothing is done. racial groups are now exempt from some prosecutions.....socio economic reasons are a defense for criminal activity in court. Yes it's difficult for any cop to do their job...but Cops shouldn't be high fiving over any dead person whether it was a "good" kill or not. That mentality is a problem IMHO. Law enforcement can't even ticket a homeless person or make them move their unlicensed motor home from in front of your house where they have taken up domain and are dumping black and gray water into the street. Yet they can detain a young man cuz he doesn't have a license plate and shoot him when he resists.....ya have to wonder about the legality of it all. I guess some people just deserve to be treated differently than others...that must be it....

Fred wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 8:55 pm

farmerchick wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 8:34 pm

h_p wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 7:19 pm

HVDC wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 6:49 pm In general I would agree with you.

But after looking at both videos.

I am not sure this was a necessary shooting.

You go to arrest someone who has just maybe 10 seconds ago said "I'm not required to get out, and if you try to force me out, we're going to have issues", then reaches for, and apparently draws, a gun when you try to force him out. I don't think it takes a committee of mathematicians to deduce that what he meant by "issues" is your imminent death.

Yeah, I guess they should have just stood there and hoped all the rounds he fired at them would impact their kevlar, and then he'd give up and check himself into the police station. Or they could just stop enforcing the law altogether, since apparently everybody has the right to make up their own laws.

Seriously, what planet are you people living on? Did I accidentally log into an Antifa website? Maybe all the Utah cop-haters should declare an autonomous zone like those commies in Portland did. That'll work out great!

It was in Seattle called chop...amd several people were murdered and no cops botherd to investigate as they were relegated to other precincts by the commies. Now if you travel in some parts of downtown Seattle and Portland you are risking your life and your property.....the cops were defunded and now quietly they are again being funded because it isn't a good situation for anyone who lives in these areas. However, the protect and serve portion of the cops job has been changed....and most people feel very cautious when they get pulled over. My husband and I have been pulled over for a traffic violation and ended up outside the vehicle with our hands on the front of the car while the cop waited for back up all because my husband has a concealed gun permit....the officer came to the door with gun drawn...for what....a 10 mile over the speed limit? We cooperated....waited for the other officer to arrive...they had guns drawn on us while my husband explained where his gun was. They took the gun from him and then they talked back in their car. After a few minutes they told us we could get back in our car, gave us back our weapon and let us go without even a warning....we still have no idea what that was all about. We were speeding as my husband has a lead foot......sooo write a speeding ticket and send us on our way....there is a problem with the police...a fundamental problem......i don't hate cops....i support them if they are there to serve and protect but that doesn't seem to be the mission these days...js

No cop serves or protects anyone besides satan. I personally do not think it is likely for a cop to be a good cop. My ex brother in law is a deputy in Wyoming and no one that I have ever heard of is more wicked than him. I did get pulled over by a sheriff deputy in Utah and we had a nice chat. He did not give me a ticket. We discussed how only a sheriff is an authorized police force. He is probably as close to a good cop as exists. Not because he never gave me a ticket. He told me how he parks on a hill and waits for speeders. If they slow down when they see him, he lets them go as he has done his job. Only if they blast past him does he pull them over. He explained how he stops and helps people. Even changed a tire for a woman. But in a state police force, he would be terminated for not being satanic. Most police are revenue collectors. No amount of good that they could ever do could compensate for the evil they have already done.

The time is probably not far off when a badge will simply be a target. See them, kill them. Make the world a better place. Doing one's share by taking the garbage out. If a cop says he fights crime, he is a liar. He is the crime. The best way to end crime is to arm everyone. The criminals will soon be killed. The penalty for pulling a car over without a warrant or probable cause that a real crime has been committed should be the death penalty. That would allow a 98% reduction in police with no difference whatsoever on the crime rate. Revenue collectors do not prevent crime. They are the crime.

Fred your a little over the top for me..but seriously things would be a bit more just I think then the way things are now in your utopia.....although I don't think we should be targeting cops or cops targeting us....and yes I believe the cops have quotas.....i used to date a cop back in the day and he said they do have revenue requirements....and he was actually a great guy....just not my type...lol....

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly while thou art in the way with him, lest at any time he shall get thee, and thou shalt be cast into prison.[or you get yourself dead]

Even if he was right, was it worth getting himself killed just to prove a point?