Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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DesertWonderer2
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... m?lang=eng

“In a January 1841 revelation regarding the failed attempt to build a temple-centered Zion in Jackson County, the Lord explained, “It behooveth me to require that work no more … but to accept of their offering.” The same revelation commanded the Saints to build a temple in Nauvoo, Illinois, and establish that city as a new place of gathering.
In Nauvoo, Joseph Smith taught that Zion “consisted of all North and South America,” adding that, in one sense, “any place where the Saints gather is Zion.” He also emphasized the importance of the temple for Zion and the gathering, declaring that “where we can get a [temple] built first, there is the place.” Joseph anticipated that a temple city such as Nauvoo would serve as the center of gathering, and that stakes of Zion would be established in many places, each serving as a refuge for the faithful.”

simpleton
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by simpleton »

DesertWonderer2 wrote: March 28th, 2023, 11:03 am https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... m?lang=eng

“In a January 1841 revelation regarding the failed attempt to build a temple-centered Zion in Jackson County, the Lord explained, “It behooveth me to require that work no more … but to accept of their offering.” The same revelation commanded the Saints to build a temple in Nauvoo, Illinois, and establish that city as a new place of gathering.
In Nauvoo, Joseph Smith taught that Zion “consisted of all North and South America,” adding that, in one sense, “any place where the Saints gather is Zion.” He also emphasized the importance of the temple for Zion and the gathering, declaring that “where we can get a [temple] built first, there is the place.” Joseph anticipated that a temple city such as Nauvoo would serve as the center of gathering, and that stakes of Zion would be established in many places, each serving as a refuge for the faithful.”
But still the New Jerusalem gets built at the center place, Independence, MO.
Nauvoo was a temporary 7 year place according to JS.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Shawn Henry »

DesertWonderer2 wrote: March 28th, 2023, 10:25 am 84:4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
Everyone has interpreted this to mean Jackson County, but "this place" is the place where the revelation was given, Kirtland, the only place to have built a temple "in this generation". The gathering of the Saints will begin at Kirtland according to how this is worded.

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Being There
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Being There »

Shawn Henry wrote: March 28th, 2023, 12:14 pm
DesertWonderer2 wrote: March 28th, 2023, 10:25 am 84:4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
Everyone has interpreted this to mean Jackson County, but "this place" is the place where the revelation was given, Kirtland, the only place to have built a temple "in this generation". The gathering of the Saints will begin at Kirtland according to how this is worded.
simply because - it IS Jackson County - it's really the only way you can interpret it .
and we know that from these other scriptures.
(look for word links - place - temple - New Jerusalem - gathering of the saints )

D&C 101
17 Zion shall not be moved out of her place, notwithstanding her children are scattered.
18 They that remain, and are pure in heart, shall return, and come to their inheritances, they and their children, with songs of everlasting joy, to build up the waste places of Zion—

Doctrine and Covenants 57
1 Hearken, O ye elders of my church, saith the Lord your God, who have assembled yourselves together,
according to my commandments,
in this land, which is the land of Missouri, which is the land which I have appointed and consecrated
for the gathering of the saints.

2 Wherefore, this is the land of promise, and the place for the city of Zion.
3 And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom. Behold,
the place which is now called Independence is the center place;
and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse.

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Being There
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Being There »

Being There wrote: March 28th, 2023, 8:32 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: March 28th, 2023, 12:14 pm
DesertWonderer2 wrote: March 28th, 2023, 10:25 am 84:4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
Everyone has interpreted this to mean Jackson County, but "this place" is the place where the revelation was given, Kirtland, the only place to have built a temple "in this generation". The gathering of the Saints will begin at Kirtland according to how this is worded.
simply because - it IS Jackson County - it's really the only way you can interpret it .
and we know that from these other scriptures.
(look for word links - place - temple - New Jerusalem - gathering of the saints )

D&C 101
17 Zion shall not be moved out of her place, notwithstanding her children are scattered.
18 They that remain, and are pure in heart, shall return, and come to their inheritances, they and their children, with songs of everlasting joy, to build up the waste places of Zion—

Doctrine and Covenants 57
1 Hearken, O ye elders of my church, saith the Lord your God, who have assembled yourselves together,
according to my commandments,
in this land, which is the land of Missouri, which is the land which I have appointed and consecrated
for the gathering of the saints.

2 Wherefore, this is the land of promise, and the place for the city of Zion.
3 And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom. Behold,
the place which is now called Independence is the center place;
and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse.
when reading a scripture - a verse,
you can't just read the verse you are trying to understand.
You need to read the verses before and after to really understand what it's referring to and talking about.

Read Sections 84 verses 1 - 5 - (it's really self explanatory)
and you will see that it's referring to where Zion - "the city of New Jerusalem"
" for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
" Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord,
in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri "




1 A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.
2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

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Being There
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Being There »

tmac wrote: March 27th, 2023, 8:52 pm Key phrase:

If the Gentiles will repent and return unto me . . . .?
True.
key phrase - yes,
but key word is - "IF",
and the Lord gave us the chance - but knew we wouldn't . - repent and return unto Him -
*** "they will deny me"

32 Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts!
For notwithstanding I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day, *** they will deny me;
nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will repent and come unto me;
for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long, saith the Lord God of Hosts.
2 Nephi 28


and that's why this scripture says - not "if" but "when".

The following is Jesus Christ speaking to the Latter-day Gentiles…
And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you:
At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father,
I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
3 Nephi 16:10

Notice that the Lord says not IF but WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel.
Additionally, He says that He will bring the fullness of His gospel from among them.




quoted

"These Gentiles have no charity for their fellow beings. They don't thank the Jews nor Lehi's descendants for the scriptures they have received from them. Instead, they curse and hate them and will not recover them.
The Lord lengthens out his arm to the Gentiles all the day long. But they mar the Lord's servant who brings forth His words.
Their rejecting the Lord's servant and their rejecting the gospel doubly testifies of their apostasy; Nephi, therefore, offers no hope for the Gentiles unless they reconcile themselves to Christ.
Although the Gentiles know God's decrees on this land, many allow secret combinations to get above them. Drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations, they suffer woes- God's covenant curse.
******** When they reject his words, the Lord cuts them off from his people.
He removes the fullness of his gospel from among the wicked, giving it to those who will receive it.
With the wicked Gentiles' apostasy and its aftermath, the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Lord turns the iniquities of the Gentiles upon their own heads. He comes out in justice against them. The wicked Gentiles bring down the fullness of God's wrath, just as the Jaredites and Nephites did. The Lord visits the Gentiles "with thunder and with earthquake, and with a great noise, and with storm, and with tempest, and with the flame of devouring fire". The sword of justices falls on the wicked Gentiles. He destroys the Gentiles; cities and chariots and executes vengeance and fury upon them.
He covers their land with a desolating sickness. A scourge consumes the wicked.
The unrepentant Gentiles cannot stand before God's power. Lehi's descendants, whom God empowers, marshal themselves and vex the wicked Gentiles.
They go among the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts, treading down and tearing to pieces. Lehi's descendants, who are of the house of Israel, inherit the Gentiles' lands and cities. The Lord reestablishes Lehi's descendants in this land, even as the wicked Gentiles perish.

--------------------------------------------------

"A Bible!, A Bible! We have got a Bible" is referring to the Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision
(the sealed portion) that the end-time servant brings to us - the church - to all the Gentiles - they will reject him and Christ's words.
*** (please see below)

The Book of Mormon comes forth to try the Gentiles' faith:
it contains but the "lesser part" of Jesus' words to the Nephites.(3 Nephi 26:8).
If the Gentiles will believe that portion - the Book of Mormon -
the Lord will manifest to them the greater things also.(3 Nephi 26:9).
The Book of Mormon, the record of a fallen people, contains warnings to the Gentiles: Moroni adds to the Book of Mormon a brief history of the Jaredites, addressing his abridgment specifically to the Gentiles.(Eth. 2:11).
He interrupts his account four times to speak directly to the them. (Eth. 2:9-12; 4:6-5; 8:23-26; 12:6-41).
Moroni has seen the Gentiles in a vision.(Morm 8:35). He tells them, therefore, things they should know.
The nation that does not serve God will be swept off the land. (Eth 2:9-10).
The Gentiles should repent and become clean before the Lord. (Eth. 4:6).
They should not allow secret combinations to get above them. (Eth 8:23-25).
They must exercise faith as did the ancients. (Eth. 12:6-31).
They must have hope and charity. (Eth.12:36-37).

Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate
. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent. (Eth. 2:11; 8:23).
The Lord bids the Gentiles to come unto him.(Eth. 4:13).

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Shawn Henry »

Being There wrote: March 28th, 2023, 8:32 pm simply because - it IS Jackson County - it's really the only way you can interpret it
Three points.

1. There is only one temple built in that generation and it's Kirtland. This is a no-brainer.

2. History shows that is exactly how it happened. The saints began gathering to Kirtland.

3. "This place" can just as easily refer to a place you have previously referenced or to the place you are at. This is the parable aspect of the statement. An initial reading yields the easy answer, a deeper reading yields the hidden meaning.

Section 124:83 even foretells of Kirtland's future significance: "nevertheless, I, the Lord, will build up Kirtland, but I, the Lord, have a scourge prepared for the inhabitants thereof."

Zion will first be built up by a future gathering to Kirtland. Why? Because just like under Joseph, the word went forth from Kirtland, aka Jerusalem, and then the Law was supposed to go forth from New Jerusalem, but that work was interrupted.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Shawn Henry »

Being There wrote: March 28th, 2023, 9:32 pm when reading a scripture - a verse,
you can't just read the verse you are trying to understand.
You need to read the verses before and after to really understand what it's referring to and talking about.
I have and the context matches. He is talking about both. Just because Jackson County is mentioned first, that doesn't mean he can't add more to the conversation. He more often than not speaks in layers my friend.

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tmac
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by tmac »

To me, this discussion highlights at least three good reasons NOT to gather in Jackson County MO NOW:

1. There does not seem to be any consensus among the debating “scholars” here as to where God intends for the gathering to occur.

2. The place is not yet prepared, and may require some major prep work, and it is entirely possible that you wouldn’t want to be there when that is happening.

3. There is not currently prepared a people capable of gathering and building Zion. In theory it sounds easy enough to just cut to the chase and do it, but even this discussion demonstrates why that won’t happen: too much ego, pride, and lack of Divine leadership and direction. In other words, there’s probably no good way around the refiners fire. Either you go through it, or you hang-out on the sidelines — somewhere. It is probably fair to say that only those who emerge from the fire will be part of the remnant.

It does not appear that there is any shortcut to Zion.
Last edited by tmac on March 30th, 2023, 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Being There
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Being There »

Shawn Henry wrote: March 29th, 2023, 2:08 pm
Being There wrote: March 28th, 2023, 8:32 pm simply because - it IS Jackson County - it's really the only way you can interpret it
Three points.

1. There is only one temple built in that generation and it's Kirtland. This is a no-brainer.

2. History shows that is exactly how it happened. The saints began gathering to Kirtland.

3. "This place" can just as easily refer to a place you have previously referenced or to the place you are at. This is the parable aspect of the statement. An initial reading yields the easy answer, a deeper reading yields the hidden meaning.

Section 124:83 even foretells of Kirtland's future significance: "nevertheless, I, the Lord, will build up Kirtland, but I, the Lord, have a scourge prepared for the inhabitants thereof."

Zion will first be built up by a future gathering to Kirtland. Why? Because just like under Joseph, the word went forth from Kirtland, aka Jerusalem, and then the Law was supposed to go forth from New Jerusalem, but that work was interrupted.
I don't want to be disagreeable,
but for some reason you always seem to be bent on reading the scriptures
THE WAY YOU WANT TO SEE THEM, and NOT what they're really saying.

I don't know if this applies here, but sometimes I've felt that the way you read scriptures,
is because of the way you see Joseph Smith -
by the comments you've made in the past - how you look at JS, and who you think he is
and always wanting to defend him and prove him right.

Do you want to be right ? or do you want to find the truth.
I myself do not care if I'm wrong.
IF I'M WRONG, I'LL FOR SURE NOT JUST DEBATE AND ARGUE THE FACT, JUST TO PROVE I'M RIGHT.
I'LL ACCEPT THE TRUTH - IF YOU CAN SHOW IT TO ME,
BUT IF NOT, PLEASE ACCEPT MINE, OR REALLY, JUST WHAT THE SCRIPTURES
ARE ACTUALLY SAYING.


lets take this step by step.

Here are the scriptures.
We are talking about Section 84 verse 4.
But lets look at verses 2-5 one by one,
with my commentary in blue below each one.

But first,
What would be the theme of these verses ? *
What do they all have in common or are talking about ?
What is the Lord really talking about or trying to say ?
* Actually, I won't say anything
I'll let the scriptures say it. (copy and paste)

2. "for the gathering of his saints
to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem."

3. "Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"

4. "that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints,
beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation."

5."an house shall be built unto the Lord,
and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord,
which shall fill the house."


So the Lord is really talking about 2 things -
"the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem",
and WHERE the "CITY" (The New Jerusalem) will be built -
"3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri,"


So lets take a closer look at these verses

2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration
of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets,
and for the gathering of his saints
to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.


So right here, it can easily be seen, what He is talking about - what I've put in red

3 Which CITY shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri,

and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

"Which CITY", is of course, what the Lord is referring to just 4 words before - in verse 2
"the city of New Jerusalem"
"beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"
So it's obvious, that "the temple lot", is where the "city" New Jerusalem will be built,
and has nothing to do with the Kirtland temple -
because He says -
"in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"


4 Verily this is the word of the Lord,
that the city New Jerusalem shall be built
by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple,

which temple shall be reared in this generation.

So AGAIN, "the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints"
"beginning at this place, even the place of the temple" -
which can only mean one thing - where the Lord said in verse 3 -
" Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"
So "beginning at this place, even the place of the temple"
must be referring to - the place of The New Jerusalem temple -
and "in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri",
and NOT the Kirtland temple in Ohio.

And to end verse 4 - "which temple shall be reared in this generation.",
and continuing through verse 5 -


5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord,
and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord,

which shall fill the house.

this is obviously describing the New Jerusalem,
and the Lord said this because He thought Zion would be established,
but JS and the saints transgressed and failed at doing it.


EVERY VERSE 2, 3, 4, and 5, is talking about "the city New Jerusalem",
and the word "temple" is nowhere referring to - and as you falsely assumed -
to be the temple in Kirtland. and - as you say - "This is a no-brainer",
by this part of verse 4 -

"that the city New Jerusalem shall be built
by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple,"
-
the New Jerusalem Temple.
Not the Kirtland temple.


I rest my case.

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Shawn Henry
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Posts: 4507

Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Shawn Henry »

Being There wrote: March 30th, 2023, 12:28 pm I don't want to be disagreeable,
but for some reason you always seem to be bent on reading the scriptures
THE WAY YOU WANT TO SEE THEM, and NOT what they're really saying.

I don't know if this applies here, but sometimes I've felt that the way you read scriptures,
is because of the way you see Joseph Smith -
by the comments you've made in the past - how you look at JS, and who you think he is
and always wanting to defend him and prove him right.

Do you want to be right ? or do you want to find the truth.
I myself do not care if I'm wrong.
IF I'M WRONG, I'LL FOR SURE NOT JUST DEBATE AND ARGUE THE FACT, JUST TO PROVE I'M RIGHT.
I'LL ACCEPT THE TRUTH - IF YOU CAN SHOW IT TO ME,
BUT IF NOT, PLEASE ACCEPT MINE, OR REALLY, JUST WHAT THE SCRIPTURES
ARE ACTUALLY SAYING.


lets take this step by step.

Here are the scriptures.
We are talking about Section 84 verse 4.
But lets look at verses 2-5 one by one,
with my commentary in blue below each one.

But first,
What would be the theme of these verses ? *
What do they all have in common or are talking about ?
What is the Lord really talking about or trying to say ?
* Actually, I won't say anything
I'll let the scriptures say it. (copy and paste)

2. "for the gathering of his saints
to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem."

3. "Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"

4. "that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints,
beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation."

5."an house shall be built unto the Lord,
and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord,
which shall fill the house."


So the Lord is really talking about 2 things -
"the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem",
and WHERE the "CITY" (The New Jerusalem) will be built -
"3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri,"


So lets take a closer look at these verses

2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration
of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets,
and for the gathering of his saints
to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.


So right here, it can easily be seen, what He is talking about - what I've put in red

3 Which CITY shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri,

and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

"Which CITY", is of course, what the Lord is referring to just 4 words before - in verse 2
"the city of New Jerusalem"
"beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"
So it's obvious, that "the temple lot", is where the "city" New Jerusalem will be built,
and has nothing to do with the Kirtland temple -
because He says -
"in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"


4 Verily this is the word of the Lord,
that the city New Jerusalem shall be built
by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple,

which temple shall be reared in this generation.

So AGAIN, "the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints"
"beginning at this place, even the place of the temple" -
which can only mean one thing - where the Lord said in verse 3 -
" Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"
So "beginning at this place, even the place of the temple"
must be referring to - the place of The New Jerusalem temple -
and "in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri",
and NOT the Kirtland temple in Ohio.

And to end verse 4 - "which temple shall be reared in this generation.",
and continuing through verse 5 -


5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord,
and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord,

which shall fill the house.

this is obviously describing the New Jerusalem,
and the Lord said this because He thought Zion would be established,
but JS and the saints transgressed and failed at doing it.


EVERY VERSE 2, 3, 4, and 5, is talking about "the city New Jerusalem",
and the word "temple" is nowhere referring to - and as you falsely assumed -
to be the temple in Kirtland. and - as you say - "This is a no-brainer",
by this part of verse 4 -

"that the city New Jerusalem shall be built
by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple,"
-
the New Jerusalem Temple.
Not the Kirtland temple.


I rest my case.
BeingThere, thanks for taking the time to make your points. I think we can disagree without really being disagreeable with each other. A back and forth dialogue can at times be helpful in understanding.

I think we both agree that we can only use the brains God gave us and as long as we humbly try to understand we will both eventually learn true doctrine. If this happens to be like the picture that has two images crafted into it and we each only see the one, then so be it, as long as we care about hearing out the other person.

You are correct that the previous verses are talking about New Jerusalem and verse 4 is still talking about the gathering to New Jerusalem, it is simply telling us that the gathering to New Jerusalem will have a preparatory gathering in Kirtland. The "this generation" in verse 4 is not a future generation, it is the generation to whom he is speaking.

In verse 5, it starts out, "For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord". That statement doesn't make sense in a future sense. The Lord knows the future and he is telling the saints that they will be successful in building up at least one temple in that generation. This next time, in the future, of course, we will be successful. We will be successful in building all the temples we build.

It is important to note that Zion has two heads; the New Jerusalem where the Law goes forth and Jerusalem (the spiritual capitol) where the word goes forth.

Look at how it happened the first time. The saints had to leave New York to go to Kirtland to receive all the major revelations concerning Zion. Kirtland is where the word of the Lord went forth from. How would you know how to build up Jackson County without first receiving the word.

The same thing will happen in the future. The word of revelation has to have a place from which to go forth prior to the gathering. The city of "Jerusalem", the spiritual center of Zion, has to precede the building up of New Jerusalem.

The saints will first gather to where the word goes forth. The word going forth will then convert many and bring them to New Jerusalem. The spiritual headquarters comes before the governmental headquarters and despite what we have learned from our youth, they are both here in America.

This is why so many revelations, arguably all the important ones, were given in Kirtland. Kirtland is where the word goes forth.

Here's one more good point, BeingThere. How does the servant in the parable gather the strength of the Lord's House to redeem Jackson County without a preparatory gathering. The strength of the Lord's House has to first gather somewhere before they set out to redeem Jackson County. There has to be a preparatory gathering place to assemble the army, just like an actual army leaving its home base before going to war.

The whole reason we will gather is because the word will have gone forth from Jerusalem, from Kirtland. The light that breaks forth among the gentiles for the second time is the revelations that will be received by the Seer of the Lord. It is more scripture that will convert this gathering and it will finally be "unto the confounding of false doctrines".

Don't be fooled by the counterfeit Ashkenazi Jews who are usurpers and pretenders and are likely from the tribe of Esau. They can't be the Jews of scripture because the BoM is clear that they gather after they begin to believe, and these alleged Jews have gathered prior to believing in Christ.

This is why the Lord told us in section 124 that Kirtland will be built up again. Kirtland is the launching point for the redemption of Jackson County.

By the way, these ideas don't originate with me. They were put forth by the blogger Watcher, who has a lot of people here in this forum who agree with him.

User avatar
Being There
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2868

Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Being There »

Shawn Henry wrote: March 30th, 2023, 2:02 pm
Being There wrote: March 30th, 2023, 12:28 pm I don't want to be disagreeable,
but for some reason you always seem to be bent on reading the scriptures
THE WAY YOU WANT TO SEE THEM, and NOT what they're really saying.

I don't know if this applies here, but sometimes I've felt that the way you read scriptures,
is because of the way you see Joseph Smith -
by the comments you've made in the past - how you look at JS, and who you think he is
and always wanting to defend him and prove him right.

Do you want to be right ? or do you want to find the truth.
I myself do not care if I'm wrong.
IF I'M WRONG, I'LL FOR SURE NOT JUST DEBATE AND ARGUE THE FACT, JUST TO PROVE I'M RIGHT.
I'LL ACCEPT THE TRUTH - IF YOU CAN SHOW IT TO ME,
BUT IF NOT, PLEASE ACCEPT MINE, OR REALLY, JUST WHAT THE SCRIPTURES
ARE ACTUALLY SAYING.


lets take this step by step.

Here are the scriptures.
We are talking about Section 84 verse 4.
But lets look at verses 2-5 one by one,
with my commentary in blue below each one.

But first,
What would be the theme of these verses ? *
What do they all have in common or are talking about ?
What is the Lord really talking about or trying to say ?
* Actually, I won't say anything
I'll let the scriptures say it. (copy and paste)

2. "for the gathering of his saints
to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem."

3. "Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"

4. "that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints,
beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation."

5."an house shall be built unto the Lord,
and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord,
which shall fill the house."


So the Lord is really talking about 2 things -
"the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem",
and WHERE the "CITY" (The New Jerusalem) will be built -
"3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri,"


So lets take a closer look at these verses

2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration
of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets,
and for the gathering of his saints
to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.


So right here, it can easily be seen, what He is talking about - what I've put in red

3 Which CITY shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri,

and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

"Which CITY", is of course, what the Lord is referring to just 4 words before - in verse 2
"the city of New Jerusalem"
"beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"
So it's obvious, that "the temple lot", is where the "city" New Jerusalem will be built,
and has nothing to do with the Kirtland temple -
because He says -
"in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"


4 Verily this is the word of the Lord,
that the city New Jerusalem shall be built
by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple,

which temple shall be reared in this generation.

So AGAIN, "the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints"
"beginning at this place, even the place of the temple" -
which can only mean one thing - where the Lord said in verse 3 -
" Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"
So "beginning at this place, even the place of the temple"
must be referring to - the place of The New Jerusalem temple -
and "in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri",
and NOT the Kirtland temple in Ohio.

And to end verse 4 - "which temple shall be reared in this generation.",
and continuing through verse 5 -


5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord,
and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord,

which shall fill the house.

this is obviously describing the New Jerusalem,
and the Lord said this because He thought Zion would be established,
but JS and the saints transgressed and failed at doing it.


EVERY VERSE 2, 3, 4, and 5, is talking about "the city New Jerusalem",
and the word "temple" is nowhere referring to - and as you falsely assumed -
to be the temple in Kirtland. and - as you say - "This is a no-brainer",
by this part of verse 4 -

"that the city New Jerusalem shall be built
by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple,"
-
the New Jerusalem Temple.
Not the Kirtland temple.


I rest my case.
BeingThere, thanks for taking the time to make your points. I think we can disagree without really being disagreeable with each other. A back and forth dialogue can at times be helpful in understanding.

I think we both agree that we can only use the brains God gave us and as long as we humbly try to understand we will both eventually learn true doctrine. If this happens to be like the picture that has two images crafted into it and we each only see the one, then so be it, as long as we care about hearing out the other person.

You are correct that the previous verses are talking about New Jerusalem and verse 4 is still talking about the gathering to New Jerusalem, it is simply telling us that the gathering to New Jerusalem will have a preparatory gathering in Kirtland. The "this generation" in verse 4 is not a future generation, it is the generation to whom he is speaking.

In verse 5, it starts out, "For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord". That statement doesn't make sense in a future sense. The Lord knows the future and he is telling the saints that they will be successful in building up at least one temple in that generation. This next time, in the future, of course, we will be successful. We will be successful in building all the temples we build.

It is important to note that Zion has two heads; the New Jerusalem where the Law goes forth and Jerusalem (the spiritual capitol) where the word goes forth.

Look at how it happened the first time. The saints had to leave New York to go to Kirtland to receive all the major revelations concerning Zion. Kirtland is where the word of the Lord went forth from. How would you know how to build up Jackson County without first receiving the word.

The same thing will happen in the future. The word of revelation has to have a place from which to go forth prior to the gathering. The city of "Jerusalem", the spiritual center of Zion, has to precede the building up of New Jerusalem.

The saints will first gather to where the word goes forth. The word going forth will then convert many and bring them to New Jerusalem. The spiritual headquarters comes before the governmental headquarters and despite what we have learned from our youth, they are both here in America.

This is why so many revelations, arguably all the important ones, were given in Kirtland. Kirtland is where the word goes forth.

Here's one more good point, BeingThere. How does the servant in the parable gather the strength of the Lord's House to redeem Jackson County without a preparatory gathering. The strength of the Lord's House has to first gather somewhere before they set out to redeem Jackson County. There has to be a preparatory gathering place to assemble the army, just like an actual army leaving its home base before going to war.

The whole reason we will gather is because the word will have gone forth from Jerusalem, from Kirtland. The light that breaks forth among the gentiles for the second time is the revelations that will be received by the Seer of the Lord. It is more scripture that will convert this gathering and it will finally be "unto the confounding of false doctrines".

Don't be fooled by the counterfeit Ashkenazi Jews who are usurpers and pretenders and are likely from the tribe of Esau. They can't be the Jews of scripture because the BoM is clear that they gather after they begin to believe, and these alleged Jews have gathered prior to believing in Christ.

This is why the Lord told us in section 124 that Kirtland will be built up again. Kirtland is the launching point for the redemption of Jackson County.

By the way, these ideas don't originate with me. They were put forth by the blogger Watcher, who has a lot of people here in this forum who agree with him.
blogger Watcher huh,
which is probably why - I disagree.

Anyway.
About verse 4.
As I've already pointed out.

How can you say that the previous verses are talking about the New Jerusalem,
but then use the word "temple" in verse 4 and think it means Kirtland - (is beyond me)
saying "it is simply telling us that the gathering to New Jerusalem
will have a preparatory gathering in Kirtland";
when in verse 3, it's already told us,
and the word "temple lot" is used - and is referring to the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which CITY (The New Jerusalem) shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri.


So how can "temple" in verse 3 - meaning the temple lot where the City of the New Jerusalem
will be built, "in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri",
but "temple" in the exact next verse, verse 4 mean the Kirtland temple ?
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord,
that the city New Jerusalem shall be built
by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple,

I'M SORRY, BUT IT CAN'T.

So it just doesn't add up my friend.
Like always, you are seeing what you want to see, and reading it that way -
so you can fit all the things you believe in Joseph Smith
and fit it - the pieces into the puzzle you've made.

Sorry but I really don't have time for this,
nor am I that interested.
So I am not going to take the time to comment on some of the other things you said,
because I've already said what I believe the scriptures mean,
and I don't see things the way you do;
like I do not believe the JS is returning and is the end-time servant.
Or believe the same as you about the servant in the parable
and WHO is "the strength of the Lord's House"

User avatar
TheChristian
captain of 100
Posts: 708

Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by TheChristian »

I look to the ingathering of the scattered tribes of Israel back to their forefathers land, in 1948 the state of Israel was born, in 1967 they retook their beloved Jerusalem.
Such wonderous signs within living memory and dramatic fullfillment of Biblical prophecy.........
The Land were our great God and Saviour manifested Himself in the flesh, paid the price of sin apon the cross, shed His precious blood apon the land, arose from the dead and sent the faithfull of Israel out to proclaim His Gospel to the utter ends of the earth.
The Israelites are being gathered back to their forefathers land in these last of days in preparation of the return of Jesus of Nazerath, the true God and King of Israel, He will once again set His feet in Jerusalem.
The best written guide apon this subject is the Bible.

User avatar
Being There
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2868

Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Being There »

Being There wrote: March 30th, 2023, 11:30 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: March 30th, 2023, 2:02 pm
Being There wrote: March 30th, 2023, 12:28 pm I don't want to be disagreeable,
but for some reason you always seem to be bent on reading the scriptures
THE WAY YOU WANT TO SEE THEM, and NOT what they're really saying.

I don't know if this applies here, but sometimes I've felt that the way you read scriptures,
is because of the way you see Joseph Smith -
by the comments you've made in the past - how you look at JS, and who you think he is
and always wanting to defend him and prove him right.

Do you want to be right ? or do you want to find the truth.
I myself do not care if I'm wrong.
IF I'M WRONG, I'LL FOR SURE NOT JUST DEBATE AND ARGUE THE FACT, JUST TO PROVE I'M RIGHT.
I'LL ACCEPT THE TRUTH - IF YOU CAN SHOW IT TO ME,
BUT IF NOT, PLEASE ACCEPT MINE, OR REALLY, JUST WHAT THE SCRIPTURES
ARE ACTUALLY SAYING.


lets take this step by step.

Here are the scriptures.
We are talking about Section 84 verse 4.
But lets look at verses 2-5 one by one,
with my commentary in blue below each one.

But first,
What would be the theme of these verses ? *
What do they all have in common or are talking about ?
What is the Lord really talking about or trying to say ?
* Actually, I won't say anything
I'll let the scriptures say it. (copy and paste)

2. "for the gathering of his saints
to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem."

3. "Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"

4. "that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints,
beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation."

5."an house shall be built unto the Lord,
and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord,
which shall fill the house."


So the Lord is really talking about 2 things -
"the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem",
and WHERE the "CITY" (The New Jerusalem) will be built -
"3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri,"


So lets take a closer look at these verses

2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration
of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets,
and for the gathering of his saints
to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.


So right here, it can easily be seen, what He is talking about - what I've put in red

3 Which CITY shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri,

and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

"Which CITY", is of course, what the Lord is referring to just 4 words before - in verse 2
"the city of New Jerusalem"
"beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"
So it's obvious, that "the temple lot", is where the "city" New Jerusalem will be built,
and has nothing to do with the Kirtland temple -
because He says -
"in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"


4 Verily this is the word of the Lord,
that the city New Jerusalem shall be built
by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple,

which temple shall be reared in this generation.

So AGAIN, "the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints"
"beginning at this place, even the place of the temple" -
which can only mean one thing - where the Lord said in verse 3 -
" Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"
So "beginning at this place, even the place of the temple"
must be referring to - the place of The New Jerusalem temple -
and "in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri",
and NOT the Kirtland temple in Ohio.

And to end verse 4 - "which temple shall be reared in this generation.",
and continuing through verse 5 -


5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord,
and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord,

which shall fill the house.

this is obviously describing the New Jerusalem,
and the Lord said this because He thought Zion would be established,
but JS and the saints transgressed and failed at doing it.


EVERY VERSE 2, 3, 4, and 5, is talking about "the city New Jerusalem",
and the word "temple" is nowhere referring to - and as you falsely assumed -
to be the temple in Kirtland. and - as you say - "This is a no-brainer",
by this part of verse 4 -

"that the city New Jerusalem shall be built
by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple,"
-
the New Jerusalem Temple.
Not the Kirtland temple.


I rest my case.
BeingThere, thanks for taking the time to make your points. I think we can disagree without really being disagreeable with each other. A back and forth dialogue can at times be helpful in understanding.

I think we both agree that we can only use the brains God gave us and as long as we humbly try to understand we will both eventually learn true doctrine. If this happens to be like the picture that has two images crafted into it and we each only see the one, then so be it, as long as we care about hearing out the other person.

You are correct that the previous verses are talking about New Jerusalem and verse 4 is still talking about the gathering to New Jerusalem, it is simply telling us that the gathering to New Jerusalem will have a preparatory gathering in Kirtland. The "this generation" in verse 4 is not a future generation, it is the generation to whom he is speaking.

In verse 5, it starts out, "For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord". That statement doesn't make sense in a future sense. The Lord knows the future and he is telling the saints that they will be successful in building up at least one temple in that generation. This next time, in the future, of course, we will be successful. We will be successful in building all the temples we build.

It is important to note that Zion has two heads; the New Jerusalem where the Law goes forth and Jerusalem (the spiritual capitol) where the word goes forth.

Look at how it happened the first time. The saints had to leave New York to go to Kirtland to receive all the major revelations concerning Zion. Kirtland is where the word of the Lord went forth from. How would you know how to build up Jackson County without first receiving the word.

The same thing will happen in the future. The word of revelation has to have a place from which to go forth prior to the gathering. The city of "Jerusalem", the spiritual center of Zion, has to precede the building up of New Jerusalem.

The saints will first gather to where the word goes forth. The word going forth will then convert many and bring them to New Jerusalem. The spiritual headquarters comes before the governmental headquarters and despite what we have learned from our youth, they are both here in America.

This is why so many revelations, arguably all the important ones, were given in Kirtland. Kirtland is where the word goes forth.

Here's one more good point, BeingThere. How does the servant in the parable gather the strength of the Lord's House to redeem Jackson County without a preparatory gathering. The strength of the Lord's House has to first gather somewhere before they set out to redeem Jackson County. There has to be a preparatory gathering place to assemble the army, just like an actual army leaving its home base before going to war.

The whole reason we will gather is because the word will have gone forth from Jerusalem, from Kirtland. The light that breaks forth among the gentiles for the second time is the revelations that will be received by the Seer of the Lord. It is more scripture that will convert this gathering and it will finally be "unto the confounding of false doctrines".

Don't be fooled by the counterfeit Ashkenazi Jews who are usurpers and pretenders and are likely from the tribe of Esau. They can't be the Jews of scripture because the BoM is clear that they gather after they begin to believe, and these alleged Jews have gathered prior to believing in Christ.

This is why the Lord told us in section 124 that Kirtland will be built up again. Kirtland is the launching point for the redemption of Jackson County.

By the way, these ideas don't originate with me. They were put forth by the blogger Watcher, who has a lot of people here in this forum who agree with him.
blogger Watcher huh,
which is probably why - I disagree.

Anyway.
About verse 4.
As I've already pointed out.

How can you say that the previous verses are talking about the New Jerusalem,
but then use the word "temple" in verse 4 and think it means Kirtland - (is beyond me)
saying "it is simply telling us that the gathering to New Jerusalem
will have a preparatory gathering in Kirtland";
when in verse 3, it's already told us,
and the word "temple lot" is used - and is referring to the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which CITY (The New Jerusalem) shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri.


So how can "temple" in verse 3 - meaning the temple lot where the City of the New Jerusalem
will be built, "in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri",
but "temple" in the exact next verse, verse 4 mean the Kirtland temple ?
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord,
that the city New Jerusalem shall be built
by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple,

I'M SORRY, BUT IT CAN'T.

So it just doesn't add up my friend.
Like always, you are seeing what you want to see, and reading it that way -
so you can fit all the things you believe in Joseph Smith
and fit it - the pieces into the puzzle you've made.

Sorry but I really don't have time for this,
nor am I that interested.
So I am not going to take the time to comment on some of the other things you said,
because I've already said what I believe the scriptures mean,
and I don't see things the way you do;
like I do not believe the JS is returning and is the end-time servant.
Or believe the same as you about the servant in the parable
and WHO is "the strength of the Lord's House"
to make my point.
The interesting thing about these scriptures,
is that there is absolutely NOTHING that even slightly mentions
or hints in any way about Kirtland at all.
It's just someones imagination, based on what they want to believe.

Whereas it does mention Zion, the city of New Jerusalem, (twice)
and gathering of his saints (twice)
and in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri.

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4507

Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Shawn Henry »

Being There wrote: March 30th, 2023, 11:30 pm So how can "temple" in verse 3 - meaning the temple lot where the City of the New Jerusalem
will be built, "in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri",
but "temple" in the exact next verse, verse 4 mean the Kirtland temple ?
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord,
that the city New Jerusalem shall be built
by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple,

I'M SORRY, BUT IT CAN'T.
The Lord commanded the building of the Kirtland Temple in December of 1832, so there were always going to be two temples. The Lord foresaw that the NJ Temple would only have a cornerstone, that's why he said temple lot and not temple.

If he was not referring to the Kirtland temple, then he misspoke by saying "shall be reared in this generation".

I must confess, I don't see why you wouldn't consider that the Lord is referring to gathering in two places when we already know they will gather in both Jerusalem and NJ. The BoM teaches of the House of Israel being gathered to one land not two.

I know you are tired of this topic, so don't feel obligated to respond. I am just happy that we are both determined to feast upon the words.

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4507

Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Shawn Henry »

TheChristian wrote: March 31st, 2023, 7:41 am in 1948 the state of Israel was born
A state of Israel being born is completely meaningless. Just because a country calls itself Israel doesn't mean it is the House of Israel. Just because Khazarian nomads from the lineage of Esau convert to Judaism doesn't mean their Jews. The satanic Rothchild family is responsible for the "State of Israel" and it was always meant to be a counterfeit.

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie

You claim to lean on the Bible, so here is a chance to show it. Show me any other people who "say they are Jews".

User avatar
Being There
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2868

Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Being There »

Shawn Henry wrote: March 31st, 2023, 12:38 pm
Being There wrote: March 30th, 2023, 11:30 pm So how can "temple" in verse 3 - meaning the temple lot where the City of the New Jerusalem
will be built, "in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri",
but "temple" in the exact next verse, verse 4 mean the Kirtland temple ?
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord,
that the city New Jerusalem shall be built
by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple,

I'M SORRY, BUT IT CAN'T.
The Lord commanded the building of the Kirtland Temple in December of 1832, so there were always going to be two temples. The Lord foresaw that the NJ Temple would only have a cornerstone, that's why he said temple lot and not temple.

If he was not referring to the Kirtland temple, then he misspoke by saying "shall be reared in this generation".

I must confess, I don't see why you wouldn't consider that the Lord is referring to gathering in two places when we already know they will gather in both Jerusalem and NJ. The BoM teaches of the House of Israel being gathered to one land not two.

I know you are tired of this topic, so don't feel obligated to respond. I am just happy that we are both determined to feast upon the words.
I really don't understand you brother.
I must confess, that I really do not understand why you continue to try to prove something
that''s just not there and that's not true.
You can say all you want to about other things,
but you don't ever want to comment directly on the scriptures that we have been talking about -
or can prove that I'm wrong at all by the things I've said about them.

I don't care about anything you say, because most of what you say - you're not using and talking
about the scriptures that we are debating about.

You just continue to try to prove what you want to believe,
coming up with - all sorts of - YOUR OPINION - to try be right.
(you're not going to find the truth that way - maybe that's not what you're looking for)

I'm not going rehash everything I've already said - what's the point if you do not want to see the truth

The ONLY THING - that you could even possibly use IN THESE SCRIPTURES
to think why this could be referring to ANYTHING ELSE - but The New Jerusalem temple,
in the State of Missouri, IS -
1. the word "temple"
2. "shall be reared in this generation"
THAT"S IT !
There is absolutely NOTHING ELSE - that even you - with your imagination -
can up with, to try to prove what you want to.

You are not reading the scriptures brother -
READ THE SCRIPTURES.

Let's talk about the only 2 things that I listed, that you can use.
They are really the only things that anyone could possibly mistakenly take the wrong way.
Everything else is really straight forward and can not be misinterpreted.

Let's talk about the first thing - the word temple.
Here is one thing you already missed ( in red ) from not reading more carefully
and what I've already stated.

2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration
of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets,
and for the gathering of his saints
to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

3 Which CITY shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri,
and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

So OBVIOUSLY, because the Lord has said in verse 2 -
where He says which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.,
He continues in verse 3 saying the same thing -
3 Which CITY (of course meaning The New Jerusalem) shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri.

That's a no brain right there.

The word "temple lot", is of course referring to The New Jerusalem temple
and where it will be built - "beginning at the temple lot"
"in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri."
So it's obvious, that "the temple lot", is where the "city" New Jerusalem will be built,
and has nothing to do with the Kirtland temple -
because also He says -
"in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri".

Then the Lord continues from verse 3 into verse 4 talking about the city New Jerusalem temple -
"BEGINNING AT THIS PLACE, EVEN THE PLACE OF THE TEMPLE"
referring to what He already said in verse 3.

4 Verily this is the word of the Lord,
that the city New Jerusalem shall be built
by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple,
which temple shall be reared in this generation.

So AGAIN, "the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints"
"beginning at this place, even the place of the temple" -
which can only mean one thing - where the Lord said in verse 3 -
" Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot,
which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri"
So "beginning at this place, even the place of the temple"
must be referring to - the place of The New Jerusalem temple -
and "in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri",
and NOT the Kirtland temple in Ohio.

-----------------------------------------------------------
That's the first thing.
Now let's talk about the only other thing - where you could possibly misinterpret what the Lord is saying.

these parts - where like you said - "which temple shall be reared in this generation"
and like I already said -
the Lord said this because He thought Zion would be established,
but JS and the saints transgressed and failed at doing it.

Just like all these other scriptures are saying -
where the Lord is talking about the New Jerusalem ZION
Did He also misspoke (because it never happened) by saying -

D&C 45
65 And with one heart and with one mind, gather up your riches that ye may purchase an inheritance which shall hereafter be appointed unto you.
66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God;
67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.
68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor
must needs flee unto Zion for safety.
69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.

D&C 42

35 And for the purpose of purchasing lands for the public benefit of the church, and building houses of worship,
and building up of the New Jerusalem which is hereafter to be revealed—

36 That my covenant people may be gathered in one in that day
when I shall come to my temple.
And this I do for the salvation of my people.

62 Thou shalt ask, and it shall be revealed unto you in mine own due time where the New Jerusalem shall be built.

67 And ye shall hereafter receive church covenants, such as shall be sufficient to establish you,
both here and in the New Jerusalem.


Doctrine and Covenants 57
1 Hearken, O ye elders of my church, saith the Lord your God, who have assembled yourselves together,
according to my commandments, in this land, which is the land of Missouri,
which is the land which I have appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints.

2 Wherefore, this is the land of promise, and the place for the city of Zion.
3 And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom.
Behold, the place which is now called Independence is the center place;
and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse.


Doctrine and Covenants 101

18 They that remain, and are pure in heart, shall return, and come to their inheritances, they and their children, with songs of everlasting joy, to build up the waste places of Zion—

19 And all these things that the prophets might be fulfilled.

20 And, behold, there is none other place appointed than that which I have appointed; neither shall there be any other place appointed than that which I have appointed, for the work of the gathering of my saints—

21 Until the day cometh when there is found no more room for them; and then I have other places which I will appoint unto them, and they shall be called stakes, for the curtains or the strength of Zion.

71 All the land which can be purchased in Jackson county, and the counties round about, and leave the residue in mine hand.

Doctrine and Covenants 105:28
28 And to have sent wise men, to fulfil that which I have commanded concerning the purchasing of all the lands in Jackson county that can be purchased, and in the adjoining counties round about.

Doctrine and Covenants 124
39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments,
for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.

51 Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings
of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name,
in Jackson county, Missouri,
and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God.

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TheDuke
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by TheDuke »

There are not mountains in Jackson County to stand upon. and the name Missouri is French. The English translation is obviously "Misery". I've been there, I can attest to that fact. However, in reality, any real thought that like many other scriptures the statements are "figurative" and not literal? I mean you would never get double digit millions of people in any one city and meet what god says about cities anyway, not in ancient times when the original prophesies were written. Just a thought. I don't really care. I'm not going unless Jesus (or a close friend) comes and tells me to go there. I see it as figurative gathering and I don't really see any New Jerusalem there, at least in this generation.

Lynn
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Posts: 897

Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Lynn »

refer to my post on p.2 of "Zion & Rules"
<viewtopic.php?t=70379&start=25>

ZOMAS [Zion] is a state of mind first before it can be actuated. There will never be the designated "Temple" in the land of Israel (in the Middle East), as it was destroyed. For the bloody ruler named Vladimer will call for the destruction of Israel (Josep Terelya, Ukrainian Russian prophecy). And according to the future, in 'The Legends of the Jews' Vol. 4, pp.233-235 (which is extracted from ancient Jewish texts), Palestine (where Israel is located), Elijah will stand and lament over the devastation of the Holy Land. His wail will be heard around the globe. This is a also noted as ... the great wail or cry of the "Phoenix" in Mary Summer Rain's 'Phoenix Rising: No-Eyes' Vision of the Changes to Come' pp.108-113,158 in the 1993 PB ed. & should be approx. pp. 98-103,148 (10 pages less) in the 1987 PB Ed. & also ... in "Ancient Prophecies" 3 (of 4, an NBC TV special that aired & can be found on DVD) in the section of NATIVE AMERICAN VISIONS & PROPHECIES: 45) Jake Swamp- member of Mohawk tribe who speaks of the great noise wil shake the world because it will be so loud. NOTE, #45 is of all the presentations given in AP3.

"ZOM" being the portion which Joseph Smith marked on the sapling on one side in 1831 standing for ZOMAS & "T" for Temple on the other side. Interestingly MOZ means "joy" in Enochian. Had ZOM not been in "caps" (capital letters) I might not have realized it. And Joseph referred to two angels that I realized were Enochian as well- Nal-Gah (NAL-GAH) which means "personal spirir" & Pah-Li-Pah (PAH-LI-PAH, of which I have not deciphered yet).

ZOMAS is first a state of being or consciousness, before it can be implemented simply means ZOM (self-knowledge) & AS (it shall be) to become something akin to "Thou shalt know thyself". ZOM being the 3rd highest level in the state of being, in which one meets their HGA (their higher angelic self) & is given the key to their destiny, to "paint" the world as they are led by the Spirit to do.

As it was written ... "... I have called you (Joseph Smith) also to preside over Zion in mine own due time ..." in D&C (RLDS-CoC 87:8a/ LDS 90:32-33).

And "... they shall have power after many days to accomplish all things pertaining to Zion." D&C (RLDS-CoC 102:10c-d/ LDS 105:35-37).

And there will be no such things as politics in Zion, as this promotes divisions, which shall not stand in Zion.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Shawn Henry »

Being There wrote: April 3rd, 2023, 10:35 am Let's talk about the only 2 things that I listed, that you can use.
Here's my summary of thoughts about your two listed items.

I've already said I agree with you that the first 3 verses are talking about New Jerusalem. Verse 4 is also talking about New Jerusalem, but here is where the Lord inserts that the beginning of the New Jerusalem gathering will be in the place that actually builds a temple in that generation, which is Kirtland, which is exactly where they did begin to gather. The Lord was ambiguous on purpose. Just because "this place" could refer to either doesn't prove either of us right, but there was no NJ temple in that generation. I reject your premise that "the Lord thought" there would be one. That's a ridiculous thought when we know the Lord knows the beginning from the end. He knew they would fail to build Zion.

The Lord doesn't misspeak. All those scriptures you included in the end of your post are future fulfillments. The Lord always knew they would be fulfilled when we establish Zion the second time. Nor did he misspeak when he said in this generation.

You fail to include in your thinking that there was to be a temple in each of those cities.

History is an exact match to my interpretation. The saints did begin to gather in Kirtland and Kirtland had a temple in that generation. NJ is 0 for 2 in that regard. The saints did not begin to gather in NJ and they did not build a temple in that generation.

Love you brother, sorry I frustrate you. Soon the scripture will be fulfilled that says we shall see eye to eye.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Shawn Henry »

TheDuke wrote: April 3rd, 2023, 11:20 am I see it as figurative gathering and I don't really see any New Jerusalem there, at least in this generation.
So you see it just like the article of faith says: We believe in the figurative gathering of Israel....

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TheDuke
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Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by TheDuke »

Shawn Henry wrote: April 4th, 2023, 11:15 am
TheDuke wrote: April 3rd, 2023, 11:20 am I see it as figurative gathering and I don't really see any New Jerusalem there, at least in this generation.
So you see it just like the article of faith says: We believe in the figurative gathering of Israel....
No, not at all. I see a literal gathering, just a figurative city. Or a city as a center or something. I mean they talk of gathering in old Jerusalem, but that cannot hold many people, it is a terrible place for a large settlement. So, they seemed to gather once or twice a year in the city and use the entire nation as the figurative "Jerusalem".

But as far as the New Jerusalem as a place. I frankly don't know what I think. I love JS and his revelations. However, I see them evolve over time and get replaced at times as well. He never deleted an old one, though he edited some (like the do nothing but translate changed to do nothing but translate until....) So, it seems god gave him tasks (as he understood them at the time) and later changed them. The new Jerusalem seems like that to me. It seems a moving target. I don't claim to know the mind of the Lord on this one. But I despise Mo, a personal fetish the Lord could overcome if needed. But it does taint my perspective. I admire people that live there, like those that live in the Aleutian Islands or Dubai, they can have it. Also, so far I have been commanded/guided to gather my family elsewhere................ far from Missouri, but still gathering, some undefined time in the (near??) future.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Shawn Henry »

Being There wrote: April 3rd, 2023, 10:35 am :D
A couple more points my friend.

In section 110, the Lord speaks of the Kirtland Temple in a future sense by saying: "And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen."

How will the fame of the Kirtland Temple spread to foreign lands? Because just as it says in 109:21 "And when thy people transgress, any of them, they may speedily repent and return unto thee, and find favor in thy sight, and be restored to the blessings which thou hast ordained to be poured out upon those who shall reverence thee in thy house", we will repent and return and have blessings poured out upon us in that house.

The endowment of power that will give the first Elders the power to go forth will be received in the Kirtland Temple and that is how the fame will spread.

The dedicatory prayer in section 109 is a future fulfillment. In verse 22 it says "that thy servants may go forth from this house armed with thy power' and in verse 23 that "from this place they may bear exceedingly great and glorious tidings, in truth, unto the ends of the earth".

Joseph said the day after the dedication of the temple, "For the sound shall go forth from this place into all the world".

This helps explain why Joseph had his dream about his barn in Ohio.

"I was back in Kirtland, Ohio, and thought I would take a walk out by myself, and view my old farm, which I found grown up with weeds and brambles, and altogether bearing evidence of neglect and want of culture.

I went into the barn (Kirtland Temple), which I found without floor or doors, with the weather-boarding off, and was altogether in keeping with the farm.

"While I viewed the desolation around me, and was contemplating how it might be recovered from the curse upon it..."

The Kirtland Temple will recover from the curse upon it and it "shall" bear the name of the Lord and its fame will spread to foreign lands.

In D&C 110:10 you can word link "beginning" of the blessing to D&C 84:4 "beginning" at this place. Kirtland is where it began and Kirtland is where it will again begin.

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Peace Will Be Taken
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Peace Will Be Taken »

Mind if I try a different spin?
I think the JacksonCounty thing in the church is not so different from the Rapture thing among Evangelicals

They say, no need to prep, were getting airlifted outa here, beam me up scotty, and all that.
We say, ok I'll prep, but I am just waitin for the phone call to head outa here to Jackson County.

Zion (the new jersulaem center point) will be built by modern day translated and/or resurrected beings, who will command mountains to move, and cement and wood and pebbles and other stuff. Get translated and be part of it.

Otherwise, the "Build Zion in your home town" or stake, places the responsibility where it belongs, on us individually, Right Now.
Question is, how to do it. I see "Visions of Glory" as a construction manual for builders of zions (in your town).

(please have a look at "Ezra's Eagle 2023, Whats Next" feedback appreciated
viewtopic.php?p=1376935#p1376935 )
Subcomandante wrote: March 4th, 2023, 5:14 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: March 4th, 2023, 5:12 pm
simpleton wrote: March 4th, 2023, 2:04 pm
HereWeGo wrote: March 4th, 2023, 3:36 pm
Christianlee wrote: March 4th, 2023, 2:16 pm

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

bertmc wrote: April 13th, 2023, 12:53 am Mind if I try a different spin?
I think the JacksonCounty thing in the church is not so different from the Rapture thing among Evangelicals

They say, no need to prep, were getting airlifted outa here, beam me up scotty, and all that.
We say, ok I'll prep, but I am just waitin for the phone call to head outa here to Jackson County.

Zion (the new jersulaem center point) will be built by modern day translated and/or resurrected beings, who will command mountains to move, and cement and wood and pebbles and other stuff. Get translated and be part of it.

Otherwise, the "Build Zion in your home town" or stake, places the responsibility where it belongs, on us individually, Right Now.
Question is, how to do it. I see "Visions of Glory" as a construction manual for builders of zions (in your town).

(please have a look at "Ezra's Eagle 2023, Whats Next" feedback appreciated
viewtopic.php?p=1376935#p1376935 )
Subcomandante wrote: March 4th, 2023, 5:14 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: March 4th, 2023, 5:12 pm
simpleton wrote: March 4th, 2023, 2:04 pm
HereWeGo wrote: March 4th, 2023, 3:36 pm
Christianlee wrote: March 4th, 2023, 2:16 pm

Then how do you account for the 10th article of faith? Were they wrong? Does being scattered not matter anymore?

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