Small note:
- In the book of Ether, the number 42 appears three times, used to describe a time period of bondage and/or power.
- In Revelations it commonly refers to "time, and times, and half a time" (1+2+0.5 = 3.5). 3.5 is a recurring number in the book.
- Revelations also talks about a period of forty and two months of bondage (chapters 11 & 13)
- 42 months = 3.5 years
THE DESTRUCTION OF SLC AND THE WASATCH FRONT.rtf
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Shoemaker
- captain of 100
- Posts: 410
79 Scholar, gadsooks, I do believe you've hit on something worth looking close at. You know we're encouraged to notice typologies (types, shadows and similes) that parallel our day with those times anciently concerning events, situations and what not. It's been in the corner of my mind for some time to compare times but your piece of information gives me new impetus to check this out; thanks for that! Imagine a typology of times. Wow, what an incredible idea. Ezra Taft Benson said as we read the Book of Mormon don't think that there is any superfluous information therein, the Lord put what's recorded in there for a reason and when we read we should ask ourselves "why did the Lord include that in the record". Thanks again!
BTW I was telling my wife and son about your fat cat next to a bottle of beer--they loved it. Then my 14 year old son said: "Where did he get the beer from?" I said he probably found it in his yard like the way we find beer bottles in our yard thrown from passing cars. He said: "Oh".
BTW I was telling my wife and son about your fat cat next to a bottle of beer--they loved it. Then my 14 year old son said: "Where did he get the beer from?" I said he probably found it in his yard like the way we find beer bottles in our yard thrown from passing cars. He said: "Oh".
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79scholar
- captain of 100
- Posts: 296
It gets even more interesting ... as Gayle's testimony (the woman from Lehi at the bottom of this artice) ... original link found here:
http://www.prophecykeepers.com/koyle.html
... covers EXACTLY the same events as Sarah LeNelle Menet who had an outer-body experience and foresaw the last days.
http://www.thereisnodeath.com/
(about Sarah - she's a non-member who describes the afterlife in terms such as spirit world, spirit prison, much like Alma's description. Her book is a MUST read)
In my honest opinion: while I know the priesthood will never be taken from the earth or the Church, from the writings of Isaiah 28 and D&C 112, I am led to believe that at some future time, the Church will cave into pressure from FEMA and surrender the Saints' food-supplies. One mistake doesn't equal apostacy, however it will bring the Saints into 3.5 years of bondage like Mosiah 24. If Isaiah 28 is true, then it verifies that the Church is true (just like in Isaiah's days), but that the Church leaders make a major error.
All these things follow the timeline parallel of 3 Nephi 6-9. According to my analysis, we're still around Helaman 6. The BoM is much more than a spiritual guide, but also a political guide as well. (This merits an entire lesson in itself, lol)
Sometime I plan on developing lesson plans for a curriculum I call: "Be ye wise as serpents," covering ... just about every subject on this site.
http://www.prophecykeepers.com/koyle.html
... covers EXACTLY the same events as Sarah LeNelle Menet who had an outer-body experience and foresaw the last days.
http://www.thereisnodeath.com/
(about Sarah - she's a non-member who describes the afterlife in terms such as spirit world, spirit prison, much like Alma's description. Her book is a MUST read)
In my honest opinion: while I know the priesthood will never be taken from the earth or the Church, from the writings of Isaiah 28 and D&C 112, I am led to believe that at some future time, the Church will cave into pressure from FEMA and surrender the Saints' food-supplies. One mistake doesn't equal apostacy, however it will bring the Saints into 3.5 years of bondage like Mosiah 24. If Isaiah 28 is true, then it verifies that the Church is true (just like in Isaiah's days), but that the Church leaders make a major error.
All these things follow the timeline parallel of 3 Nephi 6-9. According to my analysis, we're still around Helaman 6. The BoM is much more than a spiritual guide, but also a political guide as well. (This merits an entire lesson in itself, lol)
Sometime I plan on developing lesson plans for a curriculum I call: "Be ye wise as serpents," covering ... just about every subject on this site.
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Shoemaker
- captain of 100
- Posts: 410
In connection with Orson Pratts words mentioned earlier in Journal of Discourses Vol. 17:289-306 concerning our future bondage and the redemption of Zion, I found another quote about the members of the church returning to Jackson county to redeem Zion that sheds a new angle of light on it from Joseph F. Smith in Journal of Discourses 24: 156-57.
“When God leads the people back to Jackson County, how will he do it? Let me picture to you how some of us may be gathered and led to Jackson County. I think I see two or three hundred thousand people wending their way across the great plain enduring the nameless hardships of the journey, herding and guarding their cattle by day and by night, and defending themselves and little ones form foes on the right hand and on the left, as when they came here. They will find the journey back to Jackson County will be as real as when they came out here. Now, mark it. And though you may be led by the power of God ‘with a stretched out arm,’ it will not be more manifest than the leading the people out here to those that participate in it. They will think there are a great many hardships to endure in this manifestation of the power of God, and it will be left, perhaps to their children to see the glory of their deliverance, just as it is left for us to see the glory of our former deliverance, form the hands of those that sought to destroy us. This is one way to look at it. It is certainly a practical view. Some might ask, what will become of the railroads? I fear that the sifting process would be insufficient were we to travel by railroads. We are apt to overlook the manifestations of the power of God to us because we are participants in them, and regard them as commonplace events. But when it is written in history—as it will be written—it will be shown forth to future generations as one of the most marvelous, unexampled and unprecedented accomplishments that has ever been known to history”.
“When God leads the people back to Jackson County, how will he do it? Let me picture to you how some of us may be gathered and led to Jackson County. I think I see two or three hundred thousand people wending their way across the great plain enduring the nameless hardships of the journey, herding and guarding their cattle by day and by night, and defending themselves and little ones form foes on the right hand and on the left, as when they came here. They will find the journey back to Jackson County will be as real as when they came out here. Now, mark it. And though you may be led by the power of God ‘with a stretched out arm,’ it will not be more manifest than the leading the people out here to those that participate in it. They will think there are a great many hardships to endure in this manifestation of the power of God, and it will be left, perhaps to their children to see the glory of their deliverance, just as it is left for us to see the glory of our former deliverance, form the hands of those that sought to destroy us. This is one way to look at it. It is certainly a practical view. Some might ask, what will become of the railroads? I fear that the sifting process would be insufficient were we to travel by railroads. We are apt to overlook the manifestations of the power of God to us because we are participants in them, and regard them as commonplace events. But when it is written in history—as it will be written—it will be shown forth to future generations as one of the most marvelous, unexampled and unprecedented accomplishments that has ever been known to history”.
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Yosemite
- Hi, I'm new.
- Posts: 2
I agree that they don't necessarily need to tell us, but I don't agree that just knowing how to prepare is all we really need to know.lundbaek wrote:One of you wrote: "The Lord has prophets and apostles to receive revelation for the Church. If we have a need to know, they will let us know about such cataclismic events." I beg to differ. "They" did not warn in advance of WW1, WW2, not of any other cataclysmic event since the American war between the states. "They" have told us what to do to prepare for expected cataclysmic events, which I think is all we really need to know.
Brigham Young repeatedly quoted the scripture "would that all of God's people were prophets". When the events come, if we're in the habit of daily receiving, recognizing, and following personal revelation, we will know from experience that it's easiest to prepare when we know exactly what's going to happen.
"Knock, and it shall be opened unto you." --Bar-Ahman
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lundbaek
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11123
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
Need to know
I agree, in fact, with Yosemite that it is extremely helpful and advantageous to know what is "coming down" on us, or as I usually say, to know what the "coming attractions" are. And I time and resource into trying to figure out what is "coming down". About 12+ years ago I tried to put a time line on certain events prophecied in scriptures, and I'm still waiting for those events that I expected a couple of years before Y2K. And I've made other similar mistakes involving preparations for the wrong events at teh wrong time. But yes, and I forget now where in the D&C it admonishes/advises/commands us to acquaint ourselves with things going on in the world. Then, even if we knew nore details, each of us woud probably have to prepare in different ways to meet our individual circumstances.
Also, consider the reaction of many people, members and non-members, to any detailed discussion of "coming attractions" by the Church General Authorities.
There is a lot of discussion on various websites and in various newsletters about various aspects of our "awful situation". There are concerns and predictions about overseas and internal wars, economic chaos, epidemics, breakdown of society, a socialist dictatorship controlling our nations, etc. I'm watching the New World Order, that's what I'm most concerned about.
Also, consider the reaction of many people, members and non-members, to any detailed discussion of "coming attractions" by the Church General Authorities.
There is a lot of discussion on various websites and in various newsletters about various aspects of our "awful situation". There are concerns and predictions about overseas and internal wars, economic chaos, epidemics, breakdown of society, a socialist dictatorship controlling our nations, etc. I'm watching the New World Order, that's what I'm most concerned about.
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John Adams
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1084
- Location: Northern Idaho
The Brethren & The Spirit
This is my first post to this forum. The past 3 months have been almost overwhelming for me. I've always considered myself a "good" LDS person, but I feel like I've really missed the boat on many of the things that are discussed in this forum and finally my eyes have been opened (I've read more in the last three months on everything that's going on around us than I've read in the last 5-10 years - and I love to read). Because of this late "awakening" experience I want to have lots of patience for others (God sure has been patient with me) and am definitely grateful that things finally seem to be clicking for me in relation to last days, new world order, economic collapse, natural disasters, secret combinations, etc.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I really enjoy having the chance to communicate with others and learn from their thoughts, experiences, etc. But in the end I definitely agree with the recent posts about needing to have personal revelation (we can share our own thoughts and experiences, but they are still unique thoughts and experiences and we need personal revelation for our own situation). This is why I think sometimes the general membership of the church (me often included) misses out on the prophecies that the brethren are telling us - we need personal revelation to understand how the prophecies apply to us.
In reading this thread there's been some great information shared, but I would like to hear more about some of the references that the LDS church may end up assisting in the New World Order, confiscating food storage, turning over people to UN, etc. I guess I can see certain members participating in that, but I still have a firm testimony that the prophet and the Quorum of 12 will not lead us astray. I still believe that God won't let them lead us astray, and if someone thinks differently I would appreciate learning about why they think that way (references, scriptural backing, etc.)
I soak up anything the prophet and the Quorum says and then spend a lot of time trying to understand how it applies to my family and my circumstances.
To end for now, I'm glad to be able to learn together with all of you and can't wait to hear more of your responses.
"There is a lesson here: when faced with a collapsing economy, one should stop thinking of wealth in terms of money. Access to actual physical resources and assets, as well as intangibles such as connections and relationships, quickly becomes much more valuable than mere cash."
Dmitry Orlov - Post-Soviet Lessons for a Post-American Century.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I really enjoy having the chance to communicate with others and learn from their thoughts, experiences, etc. But in the end I definitely agree with the recent posts about needing to have personal revelation (we can share our own thoughts and experiences, but they are still unique thoughts and experiences and we need personal revelation for our own situation). This is why I think sometimes the general membership of the church (me often included) misses out on the prophecies that the brethren are telling us - we need personal revelation to understand how the prophecies apply to us.
In reading this thread there's been some great information shared, but I would like to hear more about some of the references that the LDS church may end up assisting in the New World Order, confiscating food storage, turning over people to UN, etc. I guess I can see certain members participating in that, but I still have a firm testimony that the prophet and the Quorum of 12 will not lead us astray. I still believe that God won't let them lead us astray, and if someone thinks differently I would appreciate learning about why they think that way (references, scriptural backing, etc.)
I soak up anything the prophet and the Quorum says and then spend a lot of time trying to understand how it applies to my family and my circumstances.
To end for now, I'm glad to be able to learn together with all of you and can't wait to hear more of your responses.
"There is a lesson here: when faced with a collapsing economy, one should stop thinking of wealth in terms of money. Access to actual physical resources and assets, as well as intangibles such as connections and relationships, quickly becomes much more valuable than mere cash."
Dmitry Orlov - Post-Soviet Lessons for a Post-American Century.
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lundbaek
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11123
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
Reply to JD
Thanks for your post. I find it stimulating. I'm sure all of us here are delighted that things finally seem to be clicking for you in relation to last days, new world order, economic collapse, natural disasters, secret combinations, etc. I'm a late bloomer myself on these subjects, along with many others.
I don't consider any LDS a spiritual midget for not being on the same page with me or the rest of us. It seems to me that some of us are driven to study these things and try to warn others of our "awful situation", while other very talented, spiritual and pro-active people are driven in other directions. I'm thinking of our bishop and stake president, and others of their caliber. So I'm not bothered if they ignore me. I just keep looking for opportunities to enlighten them as others in church try to enlighten me on their favourite topics, like family history, temple attendance, BSA, etc.
I'm not surprised to note your concern about suggestions that the LDS church may end up 1.) assisting in the New World Order, 2.)confiscating food storage, 3.)turning over people to UN, etc. I'd be interested in your reasons for that concern. I have some of my own.
1.) I cannot imagine the Prophet supporting any organization or actions that would promote loss of U.S. sovereignty. But we should realize that the mission of the Church is to bring as many people to the Gospel of Jesus Christ as possible. And if that means saying a few kind (flattering?) words of praise for one of America's greatest enemies, Kofi Annan, Secretary General of the United Nations, as he did during the 2002 Winter Olympic Games in Utah, I guesss I just have to live with it.
2.) I can envision circumstances in which civil authorities might confiscate food storage and other items from LDSs and any others who have substantial quantities of food, etc. I can also imagine local Church leaders instructing LDSs to voluntarily give up their food storage, etc. either to civil authorities or to ward or stake leadership.
3.) As for the Church turning people over to the U.N., I have to ask where did that idea come from. The closest to anything like that I've heard is from a source I usually consider reliable who told me some element of the Church is keeping watch on strong LDS activists and groups who might or do bring attention of certain elements in government to the Church by their strong and open criticism of our government (well deserved as it may be). Sorry I cannot elaborate or name names, but you understand. As bad and evil as the Gadiantons running our country are, I think the Church has to keep a low profile in that area, and stay in their favour and avoid incurring their wrath, lest they disrupt our missionary and building programs, which they are quite capable of doing. That may come soon enough.
I don't consider any LDS a spiritual midget for not being on the same page with me or the rest of us. It seems to me that some of us are driven to study these things and try to warn others of our "awful situation", while other very talented, spiritual and pro-active people are driven in other directions. I'm thinking of our bishop and stake president, and others of their caliber. So I'm not bothered if they ignore me. I just keep looking for opportunities to enlighten them as others in church try to enlighten me on their favourite topics, like family history, temple attendance, BSA, etc.
I'm not surprised to note your concern about suggestions that the LDS church may end up 1.) assisting in the New World Order, 2.)confiscating food storage, 3.)turning over people to UN, etc. I'd be interested in your reasons for that concern. I have some of my own.
1.) I cannot imagine the Prophet supporting any organization or actions that would promote loss of U.S. sovereignty. But we should realize that the mission of the Church is to bring as many people to the Gospel of Jesus Christ as possible. And if that means saying a few kind (flattering?) words of praise for one of America's greatest enemies, Kofi Annan, Secretary General of the United Nations, as he did during the 2002 Winter Olympic Games in Utah, I guesss I just have to live with it.
2.) I can envision circumstances in which civil authorities might confiscate food storage and other items from LDSs and any others who have substantial quantities of food, etc. I can also imagine local Church leaders instructing LDSs to voluntarily give up their food storage, etc. either to civil authorities or to ward or stake leadership.
3.) As for the Church turning people over to the U.N., I have to ask where did that idea come from. The closest to anything like that I've heard is from a source I usually consider reliable who told me some element of the Church is keeping watch on strong LDS activists and groups who might or do bring attention of certain elements in government to the Church by their strong and open criticism of our government (well deserved as it may be). Sorry I cannot elaborate or name names, but you understand. As bad and evil as the Gadiantons running our country are, I think the Church has to keep a low profile in that area, and stay in their favour and avoid incurring their wrath, lest they disrupt our missionary and building programs, which they are quite capable of doing. That may come soon enough.
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79scholar
- captain of 100
- Posts: 296
reply to jdadams:
WELCOME! 
I think I understand completely where you're coming from, as I also struggled upon ... well ... Isaiah 28 (along with D&C 112 and 1 Peter 4 on the same subject). Up until very recently I believed the 1890 manifesto (where God would not let any of the Brethren lead us astray).
First off, I know this is the Lord's church, and the Priesthood will not be taken from it. It will always be God's church.
However just like ancient Israel, NO church ... even God's church ... is immune to error. Many of the writings of Isaiah indicate this very well, where Isaiah consistently compares LDS to Israel (God's church), aka Zion, Ephraim, etc..
All throughout history of the different dispensations, the Lord's church was consistently on the brink of apostacy because of pride ... in Moses' days, Elijah's days, Isaiah's days, Jeremiah / Lehi's days, Peter's days, and even Joseph Smith's days. It's also interesting to note that most of the Old Testament and Book of Mormon prophets were NOT part of the Church leadership, and were ignored and persecuted because of it. Thus why Laman and Lemuel had a hard time believing their father ... but Nephi understood only because he prayed and asked the Lord.
If an apostle makes a (critical) error, he's still called of God to lead the Church ... even Judas was called of God.
I've compiled some scriptures that conflict with that 1890 manifesto clause:
- Amos 8: 8-13 ... seems to coincide with last days much more
- (Isaiah 1)
*- Isaiah 28
- Isaiah 29: 9-10
- Matthew 24
*- 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-3
*- 1 Peter 4: 17-18
- (Revelations 2: 2-5) ... what dispensation is it referring to??
- 2 Nephi 28 (certain verses apply to LDS church only)
- 2 Nephi 32 (Nephi is forbidden to say something but gives hints)
(note: every Isaiah chapter that Nephi writes about is either regarding apostacy of Israel, or about gathering Zion ... and Nephi knew we would have the words of Isaiah, and that THESE words of Isaiah are important for the last days.)
- Mormon 8: 27-41 (emphasis on 36, 38, 40)
- D&C section 1, particularly vs 18-19
*- D&C 3: 4-11
*- D&C 20: 30-34
- D&C 38: 26-31
- D&C 43: 1-11 (in conjunction with Acts 2: 17-19)
*- D&C 64: 37-43
- D&C 70: 14
- D&C 82: 3-5
*- D&C 84: 50-57
*- D&C 112: 23-26
- D&C 121: 34-40
- Joseph Smith's Ohio Farm Vision
The scriptures say it better than I do ... the point being -- trust in the Spirit, not the Church. Nephi followed the Spirit, Laman and Lemuel followed the elders of the Lord's church. No man can endure on borrowed light, otherwise it's like a virgin without oil in their lamps.
The major errors may not have happened yet ... but I'm inclined to believe that because of the Church's pride and alliance with Babylon (UN), 2 Thessalonians 2:3 will come to pass.
I think I understand completely where you're coming from, as I also struggled upon ... well ... Isaiah 28 (along with D&C 112 and 1 Peter 4 on the same subject). Up until very recently I believed the 1890 manifesto (where God would not let any of the Brethren lead us astray).
First off, I know this is the Lord's church, and the Priesthood will not be taken from it. It will always be God's church.
However just like ancient Israel, NO church ... even God's church ... is immune to error. Many of the writings of Isaiah indicate this very well, where Isaiah consistently compares LDS to Israel (God's church), aka Zion, Ephraim, etc..
All throughout history of the different dispensations, the Lord's church was consistently on the brink of apostacy because of pride ... in Moses' days, Elijah's days, Isaiah's days, Jeremiah / Lehi's days, Peter's days, and even Joseph Smith's days. It's also interesting to note that most of the Old Testament and Book of Mormon prophets were NOT part of the Church leadership, and were ignored and persecuted because of it. Thus why Laman and Lemuel had a hard time believing their father ... but Nephi understood only because he prayed and asked the Lord.
If an apostle makes a (critical) error, he's still called of God to lead the Church ... even Judas was called of God.
I've compiled some scriptures that conflict with that 1890 manifesto clause:
- Amos 8: 8-13 ... seems to coincide with last days much more
- (Isaiah 1)
*- Isaiah 28
- Isaiah 29: 9-10
- Matthew 24
*- 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-3
*- 1 Peter 4: 17-18
- (Revelations 2: 2-5) ... what dispensation is it referring to??
- 2 Nephi 28 (certain verses apply to LDS church only)
- 2 Nephi 32 (Nephi is forbidden to say something but gives hints)
(note: every Isaiah chapter that Nephi writes about is either regarding apostacy of Israel, or about gathering Zion ... and Nephi knew we would have the words of Isaiah, and that THESE words of Isaiah are important for the last days.)
- Mormon 8: 27-41 (emphasis on 36, 38, 40)
- D&C section 1, particularly vs 18-19
*- D&C 3: 4-11
*- D&C 20: 30-34
- D&C 38: 26-31
- D&C 43: 1-11 (in conjunction with Acts 2: 17-19)
*- D&C 64: 37-43
- D&C 70: 14
- D&C 82: 3-5
*- D&C 84: 50-57
*- D&C 112: 23-26
- D&C 121: 34-40
- Joseph Smith's Ohio Farm Vision
The scriptures say it better than I do ... the point being -- trust in the Spirit, not the Church. Nephi followed the Spirit, Laman and Lemuel followed the elders of the Lord's church. No man can endure on borrowed light, otherwise it's like a virgin without oil in their lamps.
The major errors may not have happened yet ... but I'm inclined to believe that because of the Church's pride and alliance with Babylon (UN), 2 Thessalonians 2:3 will come to pass.
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John Adams
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1084
- Location: Northern Idaho
Thanks for the input
79scholar & lundbaek,
Thanks for the quick responses. You've given me some good homework for this evening. The clarification regarding my concerns is extremely helpful.
I do enjoy learning from others, etc., but I guess I get nervous sometimes when people share their dreams with the world (referring to some of the previous posts) when they seem to hint to things that could be applicable personally, but not necessarily generally (again back to stewardship over our own personal revelation).
At any rate, thanks again for the thoughts. I'm going to do some more reading and thinking and then I should be back again.
I too really believe in personal revelation (versus blindly following the "church"), but at the same time still take comfort in the fact that we have a living prophet. I kind of like the way 79scholar put it (This is the Lord's church, and the Priesthood will not be taken from it.)
Thanks for the quick responses. You've given me some good homework for this evening. The clarification regarding my concerns is extremely helpful.
I do enjoy learning from others, etc., but I guess I get nervous sometimes when people share their dreams with the world (referring to some of the previous posts) when they seem to hint to things that could be applicable personally, but not necessarily generally (again back to stewardship over our own personal revelation).
At any rate, thanks again for the thoughts. I'm going to do some more reading and thinking and then I should be back again.
I too really believe in personal revelation (versus blindly following the "church"), but at the same time still take comfort in the fact that we have a living prophet. I kind of like the way 79scholar put it (This is the Lord's church, and the Priesthood will not be taken from it.)
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creator
- (of the Forum)
- Posts: 8296
- Location: The Matrix
- Contact:
follow the prophet.
I believe it's important to follow the prophet. I also believe that THE Prophet will never lead us astray...I still have a firm testimony that the prophet and the Quorum of 12 will not lead us astray.
and I agree that doesn't mean that we shouldn't listen to the promptings of the spirit...
The prophet gives us general commandments that are a general guideline to all member and non-member alike...
As President Benson stated in conference, we shouldn't have to be commanded in all things...
We should also rely on the spirit and personal revelation to know what we should do, personally. and we should learn true principles, and use the book of mormon as a guide in our lives.
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lundbaek
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11123
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
The following was sent me by a friend who does not post himself, but commented to me about the above few postings.
I don't know who 79scholar is, but he is a brother to my soul, and I agree with him heartily. Otherwise, why would Moroni say: ". . .why have ye polluted the holy church of God?" (Mormon 8:38) What about this one: "AND YOUR CHURCHES, YEA, EVEN EVERY ONE, HAVE BECOME POLLUTED. . . ." (vs. 36) We're losing doctrine because the Lord said in Isaiah 28:9 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk (Sunday School class), and drawn from the breasts (teaching the letter-of-the-law: "For everyone that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe (baby). But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by REASON of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Heb 5:12-13)."
Is 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line [boring speeches and lessons]; here A LITTLE, and there A LITTLE . . . YET THEY WOULD NOT HEAR [the real meaning of those teachings]. But the word of the Lord was unto them [instead], . . . here a LITTLE, and there a LITTLE [like that's all we need to do to be righteous, so bug off]; that they might go, and FALL BACKWARD, and be BROKEN, and SNARED, and taken [prisoner by the Devil].
As one man pointed out in his writings recently, we love the Church more than we love Christ. The Church we can see, Christ we can't.
I don't know who 79scholar is, but he is a brother to my soul, and I agree with him heartily. Otherwise, why would Moroni say: ". . .why have ye polluted the holy church of God?" (Mormon 8:38) What about this one: "AND YOUR CHURCHES, YEA, EVEN EVERY ONE, HAVE BECOME POLLUTED. . . ." (vs. 36) We're losing doctrine because the Lord said in Isaiah 28:9 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk (Sunday School class), and drawn from the breasts (teaching the letter-of-the-law: "For everyone that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe (baby). But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by REASON of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Heb 5:12-13)."
Is 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line [boring speeches and lessons]; here A LITTLE, and there A LITTLE . . . YET THEY WOULD NOT HEAR [the real meaning of those teachings]. But the word of the Lord was unto them [instead], . . . here a LITTLE, and there a LITTLE [like that's all we need to do to be righteous, so bug off]; that they might go, and FALL BACKWARD, and be BROKEN, and SNARED, and taken [prisoner by the Devil].
As one man pointed out in his writings recently, we love the Church more than we love Christ. The Church we can see, Christ we can't.
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John Adams
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1084
- Location: Northern Idaho
Patience
Like I said before, I've been reading like crazy lately (not only from the scriptures, but especially things from President Benson and Skousen). What I think is difficult after finally being able to understand a lot of this, is still being patient with myself and others. Skousen and Benson (and many others) warned us about a lot of this stuff in the 60s, 70s, 80s and beyond, but even though life has definitely got worse, life still does go on. In reading some of Skousen's works that he wrote in the early 80s, he talked about how bad things were and that things couldn't get much worse before the calamaties started happening. Well things have gotten much worse, but how much more worse will they get before things finally do collapse? I still do have to worry about a job, about a calling, about my family, etc. along with the extra hurriedness of preparation. Again, like we've been talking about - even more of a reason to be doing everything possible to have personal revelation.
Anyway, I don't know if the rest of you feel like this or not, but the more I learn about all that's going on around us, the more I wish things would go even faster. Patience is definitely a virtue, but it sure is a difficult virtue to obtain.
Anyway, I don't know if the rest of you feel like this or not, but the more I learn about all that's going on around us, the more I wish things would go even faster. Patience is definitely a virtue, but it sure is a difficult virtue to obtain.
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lundbaek
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We're not there yet
I think the following events described by John have not come upon us yet.
Revelation 13:
1, Joseph Smith Translation) And I saw another sign, in the likeness of the kingdoms of the earth; a beast rise up out of the sea, and he stood upon the sand of the sea, having seven heads...
2) ...and the dragon gave him power, and his seat, and great authority.
3) ...all the world wondered after the beast.
4) And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?
5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tounges, and nations.
8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world.
9) If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10) He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity; he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke like a dragon.
12) And he exercisith all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13) And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
14) And he deceivith them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast, saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.
17) And that no man might buy and sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Revelation 13:
1, Joseph Smith Translation) And I saw another sign, in the likeness of the kingdoms of the earth; a beast rise up out of the sea, and he stood upon the sand of the sea, having seven heads...
2) ...and the dragon gave him power, and his seat, and great authority.
3) ...all the world wondered after the beast.
4) And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?
5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tounges, and nations.
8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world.
9) If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10) He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity; he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke like a dragon.
12) And he exercisith all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13) And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
14) And he deceivith them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast, saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.
17) And that no man might buy and sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
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WYp8riot
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Re: Patience
jdadams22 wrote:Like I said before, I've been reading like crazy lately (not only from the scriptures, but especially things from President Benson and Skousen). What I think is difficult after finally being able to understand a lot of this, is still being patient with myself and others. Skousen and Benson (and many others) warned us about a lot of this stuff in the 60s, 70s, 80s and beyond, but even though life has definitely got worse, life still does go on. In reading some of Skousen's works that he wrote in the early 80s, he talked about how bad things were and that things couldn't get much worse before the calamaties started happening. Well things have gotten much worse, but how much more worse will they get before things finally do collapse? I still do have to worry about a job, about a calling, about my family, etc. along with the extra hurriedness of preparation. Again, like we've been talking about - even more of a reason to be doing everything possible to have personal revelation.
Anyway, I don't know if the rest of you feel like this or not, but the more I learn about all that's going on around us, the more I wish things would go even faster. Patience is definitely a virtue, but it sure is a difficult virtue to obtain.
Welcome, I am not a consistent visitor here, but enjoy it when I get the chance. I am happy to see a new LDS truth seeker! There are many forums and sites but above all this one I think fits the needs and importances that need addressed and I hope others will discover these truths as you have. It certainly brings new meaning to "Bitter-sweet"
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79scholar
- captain of 100
- Posts: 296
Re: Patience
I definitely know how you feel, yet this is my personal take ...jdadams22 wrote:Anyway, I don't know if the rest of you feel like this or not, but the more I learn about all that's going on around us, the more I wish things would go even faster. Patience is definitely a virtue, but it sure is a difficult virtue to obtain.
The Lord did not lead me to this knowledge without a purpose for doing so. This knowledge is given to me for the following purposes:
1- First and foremost, for me to become a better me -- better (future) husband, father, person, neighbor, priesthood holder, home-teacher, etc..
2- To prepare myself and my family for the Second Coming (and Armageddon) both temporally and spiritually
3- To prepare others, both LDS and non-LDS, for the Second Coming both temporally and spiritually ... via education and example.
Because of #2 and #3, I personally hope Armageddon is delayed so that I can better prepare others for it ... for Zion. Yet I suspect (by calculation) it will all be within 15 years from now. Probably 10.
Search your patriarchal blessing and consider what purpose or calling the Lord would have for you in preparation to the Second Coming. Do not feel burdened, just do your best.
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79scholar
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Thanks!lundbaek wrote:The following was sent me by a friend who does not post himself, but commented to me about the above few postings.
I don't know who 79scholar is, but he is a brother to my soul, and I agree with him heartily. Otherwise, why would Moroni say: ". . .why have ye polluted the holy church of God?" (Mormon 8:38) What about this one: "AND YOUR CHURCHES, YEA, EVEN EVERY ONE, HAVE BECOME POLLUTED. . . ." (vs. 36) We're losing doctrine because the Lord said in Isaiah 28:9 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk (Sunday School class), and drawn from the breasts (teaching the letter-of-the-law: "For everyone that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe (baby). But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by REASON of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Heb 5:12-13)."
Is 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line [boring speeches and lessons]; here A LITTLE, and there A LITTLE . . . YET THEY WOULD NOT HEAR [the real meaning of those teachings]. But the word of the Lord was unto them [instead], . . . here a LITTLE, and there a LITTLE [like that's all we need to do to be righteous, so bug off]; that they might go, and FALL BACKWARD, and be BROKEN, and SNARED, and taken [prisoner by the Devil].
As one man pointed out in his writings recently, we love the Church more than we love Christ. The Church we can see, Christ we can't.
I think I love youIt should also be noted that Israel's main folly came from fearing Babylon (the world) more than the Lord. When Joseph feared man more than God, he lost his translating privilege.
There seems to be a lack of boldness among our Prophets, Seers, and Revelators to *anything* regarding politics ... as if we as a Church are afraid of political forces whether for financial or political purposes. It can be argued (and is very valid) that we as church members are not ready for such, as we have come under condemnation like D&C 84 ... since the 80s. Nevertheless, this luke-warmness with the *utter lack* of political and conspiracy discussion among Church leadership is an indicator that the Church fears the world more than the Lord. Why is Ezra Taft Benson the only one to mention these things??
All this makes me suspect that Isaiah 29 is for OUR generation, and is strongly related to Isaiah 28. This is the Lord's Church, and none love it more than those who wish it's repentance and improvement ... and I am led to believe that the Lord will compell it to be humble via the great trials of Armageddon, followed by a re-gathering of these to Zion.
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creator
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Prophets have and are warning us!
where have you been? are you asleep? Ezra Taft Benson is not the only one to mention these things. Proof of that is on http://www.LatterdayConservative.com - we may have more quotes from him than others but don't be so quick to judge why that is.There seems to be a lack of boldness among our Prophets, Seers, and Revelators to *anything* regarding politics .... Why is Ezra Taft Benson the only one to mention these things??
I don't think you understand the way the Lord works. The prophets are not the problem! They are doing exactly what the Lord wants them to do. Even when President Benson and other prophets have warned us about the secret combinations and loss of our freedoms the majority of church members didn't listen.
Sometimes the prophets don't come out and speak plainly, just as jesus did in his days... He spoke in a way that only those who were paying attention would understand... President Hinckley has done his fair share of warning us too. Just August last year (see: "A Testimony Vibrant and True") he counselled us to read the Book of Mormon in 6 months.. and in the same talk he told us that the Book of Mormon is more current than today's newspaper, and that it tells of two civilizations "Each began as a small nation, its people walking in the fear of the Lord. But with prosperity came growing evils. The people succumbed to the wiles of ambitious and scheming leaders who oppressed them with burdensome taxes, who lulled them with hollow promises, who countenanced and even encouraged loose and lascivious living. These evil schemers led the people into terrible wars that resulted in the death of millions and the final and total extinction of two great civilizations in two different eras."
Does this not sound like a description of today? Is W Bush not an ambitious and scheming leader? leading us into "terrible wars"? I think President Hinckley is doing a fine job of warning us....
...and here is an excellent talk - President Hinckley speaking on Freedom:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK5w5uzxoCY
http://www.awakeandarise.org/article/Hinckley.htm
I am starting a new thread for this one:
http://latterdayconservative.com/forum/ ... .php?t=133
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lundbaek
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Warnings more subtle now
As one who remembers the more blunt, bold warnings of especially the '60's, but also to a lesser extent during subsequent decades, I note the difference in the tone of the warnings. In recent years I've been listening real hard for the warnings, and still find, by perusing carefully this site, there were many I missed. The increase in subtlety I have explained on another thread or two, and I'm disappointed that it is necessary.
I've been watching for a few days now the "Secret combinations" thread on the Nauvoo Forum, waiting for at least one of their numbers to challenge the suggestion that street gangs constitute the secret combinations we have read and heard about. I'm not about to try to clue them in, since I've had 4 or 5 posts deleted for being no different than how I write and what I write about here. If I had to bet, I'd say most American LDSs think the secret combinations are street gangs or the Mafia / Cosa Nostra and the like, but the idea of a conspiracy to form a socialist dictatorship to rule the world seems to be inconceiveable to the large majority of them.
I've been watching for a few days now the "Secret combinations" thread on the Nauvoo Forum, waiting for at least one of their numbers to challenge the suggestion that street gangs constitute the secret combinations we have read and heard about. I'm not about to try to clue them in, since I've had 4 or 5 posts deleted for being no different than how I write and what I write about here. If I had to bet, I'd say most American LDSs think the secret combinations are street gangs or the Mafia / Cosa Nostra and the like, but the idea of a conspiracy to form a socialist dictatorship to rule the world seems to be inconceiveable to the large majority of them.
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Swmorgan77
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Re: Warnings more subtle now
Yes, or they think that Al Quaeda is the modern Gadiantons. If you believe that Al Qaeda really is what the US govt claims they are, there is nothing 'secret' about them. They are simply open, religously motivated suicidal terrorsts who want to kill us all. That idea of Al Qaeda bears no resemblance to the Gadiantons, and also ignores the obvious fact in the Book of Mormon that the Gadiantions sought and were able to obtain control of the Nephite government.lundbaek wrote:As one who remembers the more blunt, bold warnings of especially the '60's, but also to a lesser extent during subsequent decades, I note the difference in the tone of the warnings. In recent years I've been listening real hard for the warnings, and still find, by perusing carefully this site, there were many I missed. The increase in subtlety I have explained on another thread or two, and I'm disappointed that it is necessary.
I've been watching for a few days now the "Secret combinations" thread on the Nauvoo Forum, waiting for at least one of their numbers to challenge the suggestion that street gangs constitute the secret combinations we have read and heard about. I'm not about to try to clue them in, since I've had 4 or 5 posts deleted for being no different than how I write and what I write about here. If I had to bet, I'd say most American LDSs think the secret combinations are street gangs or the Mafia / Cosa Nostra and the like, but the idea of a conspiracy to form a socialist dictatorship to rule the world seems to be inconceiveable to the large majority of them.
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John Adams
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The Prophets are Speaking - We're just Missing the Message
I definitely agree that it's not our prophet, it's us. I find it amazing that for so long I missed so much of their messages (especially President Benson and President Hinckley). It's only now that I'm making a greater personal effort that I can see how loudly they have been telling us all along. "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."
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lundbaek
- Level 34 Illuminated
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- Location: Mesa, Arizona
Gadiantons behind terrorists
I for one believe Al Quaeda was, if not actually created by the Gadiantons for the role they are playing, certainly fostered, directed, and supported by the Gadiantons.
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79scholar
- captain of 100
- Posts: 296
Re: Prophets have and are warning us!
I stand corrected. Forgive me for my lack of researching ... I somehow just missed it.brian wrote:where have you been? are you asleep? Ezra Taft Benson is not the only one to mention these things. Proof of that is on http://www.LatterdayConservative.com - we may have more quotes from him than others but don't be so quick to judge why that is.
Also about Al Qaeda, there is no doubt that Bush admin have no real interest to pursue Osama, since when they do find him ... they'll have to find a new "bad-guy" to sustain the war ... and that takes effort, propaganda, and perhaps even a new invasion.
Osama has never ceased to be America's ally and recruited agent. This is VERY similar to the 1999 Seattle WTO protest, where the WTO hired anarchists to trash the neighborhood and go completely untouched, while they then declared martial law and tear-gassed / beat / imprisoned all the peaceful protesters.
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creator
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Secret Combinations today? Conspiracy theory or fact?
I just had to! I responded....I've been watching for a few days now the "Secret combinations" thread on the Nauvoo Forum, waiting for at least one of their numbers to challenge the suggestion that street gangs constitute the secret combinations
http://www.nauvoo.com/ubb/cgi/ultimateb ... 323#000003
back me up if they attack me or my message
