This is a must read about the Last Days, destruction of Salt Lake City and more!!!
(Caution: This document is not all based on true doctrine. It's a mix of truth's and lies, you'll need to pray that the spirit will help you discern the truth from the lies)
link: http://www.brmecham.com/docs/SLC_destruction.rtf
THE DESTRUCTION OF SLC AND THE WASATCH FRONT.rtf
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sbenard
- captain of 100
- Posts: 228
- Location: Bountiful, UT USA
This reminds me of a guy that was a High Priest in Wyoming or Colorado, a miner, who set himelf of as the fulfilment of a Book of Mormon scripture (I don't recall where and aren't willing to waste my time looking for it) about a latter-day prophet-like figure who would be wounded or something.
He wrote a series of books published on the web foretelling the destruction of the United States beginning shortly after the last Presidential election, saying that the liberals would win, that the Saints would be severely persecuted and forced into concentration camps beginning in Mar '05, that the Western US would be a giant concentration camp where all LDS would be relocated, that the Prophet would make terrible errors in judgment, and that he would be in Washington DC at an event in '07 during which the US would suffer a terrible nuclear attack, etc., etc.
None of the events -- even the first ones -- came true.
Since when does the Lord reveal such things to someone outside his duly-called line of authority?
I know that the Lord does show momentous things to private individuals, but if they are to be revealed to the world, He'll do it through his appointed prophets and apostles. He will always tell those private individuals to keep their mouths shut about it, just as He told Nephi to do regarding the visions of the last days to be revealed by John. If we listen to such diverse voices as this, we are setting ourselves up to be deceived, IMHO.
He wrote a series of books published on the web foretelling the destruction of the United States beginning shortly after the last Presidential election, saying that the liberals would win, that the Saints would be severely persecuted and forced into concentration camps beginning in Mar '05, that the Western US would be a giant concentration camp where all LDS would be relocated, that the Prophet would make terrible errors in judgment, and that he would be in Washington DC at an event in '07 during which the US would suffer a terrible nuclear attack, etc., etc.
None of the events -- even the first ones -- came true.
Since when does the Lord reveal such things to someone outside his duly-called line of authority?
I know that the Lord does show momentous things to private individuals, but if they are to be revealed to the world, He'll do it through his appointed prophets and apostles. He will always tell those private individuals to keep their mouths shut about it, just as He told Nephi to do regarding the visions of the last days to be revealed by John. If we listen to such diverse voices as this, we are setting ourselves up to be deceived, IMHO.
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Wahoowa
- Hi, I'm new.
- Posts: 5
- Location: Jackson, MS
I agree. The Lord has prophets and apostles to receive revelation for the Church. If we have a need to know, they will let us know about such cataclismic events. We do have a right to receive revelation for our stewardships/responsibilities. It is also important to remember that the Adversary also appoints his own messengers.sbenard wrote: I know that the Lord does show momentous things to private individuals, but if they are to be revealed to the world, He'll do it through his appointed prophets and apostles. He will always tell those private individuals to keep their mouths shut about it, just as He told Nephi to do regarding the visions of the last days to be revealed by John. If we listen to such diverse voices as this, we are setting ourselves up to be deceived, IMHO.
At least we know that the Salt Lake Temple will not be destroyed no matter what happens--it will stand through the millenium.
Wahoowa
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Shoemaker
- captain of 100
- Posts: 410
Don’t be too complacent, not long ago I read a prophesy by Wilford Woodruff intimating that the saints would not be permitted to enter the Salt Lake Temple to worship. I think it was in connection with its dedication if I remember right. Personally I see from scripture and other writings that the saints will be incarcerated in the not too distant future. “There is a test, a test coming that will try the best of saints” “you will not be able to endure on borrowed light” “the saints will cry day and night for deliverance” “the Lord will lead his people out of bondage by his angle and His presence as was Israel in Moses day from Egyptian slave labor”. The interment camps are already being constructed—Hilaburton has recently received a 385 million contract for the building of these camps.This has echos of the camps in Nazi Germany.
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lundbaek
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11123
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
After a recent preparedness fireside, the following thoughts came to my mind.
Do not misunderstand my comparison of our "awful situation" in the United States of America with that of Germany in 1945. I have never been sympathetic toward the Nazi German government that collapsed at the end of WW2. I use it for comparison only because I spent so much time in Germany in the '60's and '70's, and visited and spoke with so many German survivors of WW2 that I think I have a pretty good idea of how many, if not most of them felt as they watched their country collapse under the onslaught of America, British, and especially Russian forces. I remember the descriptions of the hopelessness they felt as the destruction moved closer to them, and eventually over them. Their society and their lives were in shambles. They were at the mercy of the invaders, some consumed with vengance and hatred. And sometimes the price of whatever measure of mercy they received was high and painful. Some resisted and fought on longer than others. A photograph still most vivid in my mind is that of a German soldier lying dead in a large square somewhere in Berlin, his rifle lying a few feet away, as a Russian infantryman, his submachine gun at the ready, trots on past him. I've often wondered why that German soldier didn't give up instead of fighting to his death. Maybe he got the best he could hope for then. I listened to German men and women speak of the fears they had at that time of the fates that lie in store for them and their loved ones. Some spoke of hunger, even starvation. A good acquaintance of mine, at age 7, watched her mother starve to death, and buried her with little help from anyone else. I heard men who had been POWs of the Russians speak bitterly of the years, as many as 10 years they spent in Russian slave labout camps after the war. Especially bitter were those who, having surrendered to Americans and British, were turned over to the Russian and languished those long years in Russian captivity.
I sometimes wonder what fate awaits many Americans as the prophecies of 3 Nephi Chapters 16, 20 and 21, and of Revelation Chapter 13 are fulfilled. Without trying to quote or relate prophecies that I cannot personally verify, I can only ask how will we Americans fare as the remnant of Jacob goes thru us as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep? The bitterness expressed by some remnants of Jacob in recent days toward American Gentiles may give us some indication. How will we fare as the Beast of Revelation 13 makes war with the saints, and overcomes them with power over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. In view of the contempt expressed for America and Americans by other world leaders, this liklihood ought to cause us concern.
Four decades ago, Presiden McKay and Apostle Benson especially warned us about things that were happening in that day and how to deal with them. They told us what to do to save our nation. We didn't do it. I believe the chance was lost then to rally and save our nation as we knew it. Two decades ago President Benson pointed out that most of the things we had been warned about twenty years earlier had happened because we generally chose to ignore the prophetic priority back then. He then gave us a whole new list of things to do to turn the tide. Instead of following him, most LDSs chose again to ignore the warnings, and in the end, we failed as a people to save the nation and Constitution because of our inability to focus on what we were called to do in that day. It appears to be too late now to reverse course and paddle our rafts back upstream, or even make it to the shore. We're on our way over the waterfall, and preparations we are now being told to make are to help secure us for the safest possible splashdown. Let us hope and pray that our preparations will minimize the pain and suffering that the remnamt of Jacob and the beast of Revelation 13 will inflict on us.
Do not misunderstand my comparison of our "awful situation" in the United States of America with that of Germany in 1945. I have never been sympathetic toward the Nazi German government that collapsed at the end of WW2. I use it for comparison only because I spent so much time in Germany in the '60's and '70's, and visited and spoke with so many German survivors of WW2 that I think I have a pretty good idea of how many, if not most of them felt as they watched their country collapse under the onslaught of America, British, and especially Russian forces. I remember the descriptions of the hopelessness they felt as the destruction moved closer to them, and eventually over them. Their society and their lives were in shambles. They were at the mercy of the invaders, some consumed with vengance and hatred. And sometimes the price of whatever measure of mercy they received was high and painful. Some resisted and fought on longer than others. A photograph still most vivid in my mind is that of a German soldier lying dead in a large square somewhere in Berlin, his rifle lying a few feet away, as a Russian infantryman, his submachine gun at the ready, trots on past him. I've often wondered why that German soldier didn't give up instead of fighting to his death. Maybe he got the best he could hope for then. I listened to German men and women speak of the fears they had at that time of the fates that lie in store for them and their loved ones. Some spoke of hunger, even starvation. A good acquaintance of mine, at age 7, watched her mother starve to death, and buried her with little help from anyone else. I heard men who had been POWs of the Russians speak bitterly of the years, as many as 10 years they spent in Russian slave labout camps after the war. Especially bitter were those who, having surrendered to Americans and British, were turned over to the Russian and languished those long years in Russian captivity.
I sometimes wonder what fate awaits many Americans as the prophecies of 3 Nephi Chapters 16, 20 and 21, and of Revelation Chapter 13 are fulfilled. Without trying to quote or relate prophecies that I cannot personally verify, I can only ask how will we Americans fare as the remnant of Jacob goes thru us as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep? The bitterness expressed by some remnants of Jacob in recent days toward American Gentiles may give us some indication. How will we fare as the Beast of Revelation 13 makes war with the saints, and overcomes them with power over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. In view of the contempt expressed for America and Americans by other world leaders, this liklihood ought to cause us concern.
Four decades ago, Presiden McKay and Apostle Benson especially warned us about things that were happening in that day and how to deal with them. They told us what to do to save our nation. We didn't do it. I believe the chance was lost then to rally and save our nation as we knew it. Two decades ago President Benson pointed out that most of the things we had been warned about twenty years earlier had happened because we generally chose to ignore the prophetic priority back then. He then gave us a whole new list of things to do to turn the tide. Instead of following him, most LDSs chose again to ignore the warnings, and in the end, we failed as a people to save the nation and Constitution because of our inability to focus on what we were called to do in that day. It appears to be too late now to reverse course and paddle our rafts back upstream, or even make it to the shore. We're on our way over the waterfall, and preparations we are now being told to make are to help secure us for the safest possible splashdown. Let us hope and pray that our preparations will minimize the pain and suffering that the remnamt of Jacob and the beast of Revelation 13 will inflict on us.
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lundbaek
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11123
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
One of you wrote: "The Lord has prophets and apostles to receive revelation for the Church. If we have a need to know, they will let us know about such cataclismic events." I beg to differ. "They" did not warn in advance of WW1, WW2, not of any other cataclysmic event since the American war between the states. "They" have told us what to do to prepare for expected cataclysmic events, which I think is all we really need to know.
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lundbaek
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11123
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
Correction to the above
I wrote in my immediately above post ""They" have told us what to do to prepare for expected cataclysmic events, which I think is all we really need to know." I should have said "...which I think is all the Lord wants us to know." It may be that the Lord hasn't decided which cataclysmic events to allow to be unleashed on us, or how they will unfold. So much may depend on what we as LDSs, and we as Gentiles do to minimize the Lord's wrath between now and then, whenever "then" is. The passages in 3 Nephi that I referred to indicate to me that the severity will depend upon, among whatever else, the level of our repentence. And I'm sure there are other reasons why the Lord will not go into any more detail than He already has. There are lots of what I call "unofficial prophecies" out there that go into considerable detail about some mighty "cataclysmic events". I think I've read just about all of them, and I've concluded that the best thing our family can do is exactly what we have been told to do in the way of preparedness, including both what the Church has recommended and what we feel impressed by the Spirit to do in addition.
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lundbaek
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11123
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
I believe that much of the trouble America is in now is because as a Church in general we did not listen to our prophets and apostles when, for examples, some years ago they told us to study the Constituion and insist that our political leaders support and sustain it, when they told us to keep the sabbath holy by not shopping, fishing & hunting, watching and playing Sunday sports and watching of engaging in other forms of public entertainment on the sabbath, when they told us to not use food stamps and other government welfare programs, and when they told mothers to stay in the home when children are still in school.
The Church General Authorities are giving us direction now, much of it thru our immediate priesthood leaders. We were recently told by the Prophet to read the Book of Mormon completely before the end of last year. How many of those people who did read it noted and began to heed those instructions (commandments, if you like) in the Book of Mormon that apply to our time, but which are not currently getting prime time (general conference, stake conference) attention. Those "slothful servants" who will not do anything until they are "compelled in all things" are just as likely to be oblivious of Ether 8: 18-25 - especially verse 24 which is a direct command to us gentiles. (Gentiles being what LDS are considered to be according to the Book of Mormon, and according to Joseph Smith's dedicatory prayer at the Kirtland Temple.), or Pres. Hinckley's "make your voice heard" opening article in a last year's Ensign. Maybe the Lord will never set up a specific Church program to accomplish those things, but I don't think that absolves us from addressing them just because our leaders are not giving them prime time attention.
I'm grateful there are some, like many who post here, who recognize wrongs we need to address even without being specifically commanded by priesthood leaders, many of whom are overwhelmed with other serious issues.
The Church General Authorities are giving us direction now, much of it thru our immediate priesthood leaders. We were recently told by the Prophet to read the Book of Mormon completely before the end of last year. How many of those people who did read it noted and began to heed those instructions (commandments, if you like) in the Book of Mormon that apply to our time, but which are not currently getting prime time (general conference, stake conference) attention. Those "slothful servants" who will not do anything until they are "compelled in all things" are just as likely to be oblivious of Ether 8: 18-25 - especially verse 24 which is a direct command to us gentiles. (Gentiles being what LDS are considered to be according to the Book of Mormon, and according to Joseph Smith's dedicatory prayer at the Kirtland Temple.), or Pres. Hinckley's "make your voice heard" opening article in a last year's Ensign. Maybe the Lord will never set up a specific Church program to accomplish those things, but I don't think that absolves us from addressing them just because our leaders are not giving them prime time attention.
I'm grateful there are some, like many who post here, who recognize wrongs we need to address even without being specifically commanded by priesthood leaders, many of whom are overwhelmed with other serious issues.
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Shoemaker
- captain of 100
- Posts: 410
Oh, it is. Enlighten me!Wahoowa wrote:This is already happening!Shoemaker wrote:Oh, here's an interesting one: "And it was given unto him [the beast] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them..." Revelation 13:7
Shoemaker wrote:
The interment camps are already being constructed—Hilaburton has recently received a 385 million contract for the building of these camps.This has echos of the camps in Nazi Germany.
Where is this coming from?!?!?!
From Market Watch:KBR awarded Homeland Security contract worth up to $385M
By Katherine Hunt
Last Update: 12:19 PM ET Jan 24, 2006
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- KBR, the engineering and construction subsidiary of Halliburton Co. (HAL : Halliburton Company
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HAL79.64, -0.24, -0.3%) , said Tuesday it has been awarded a contingency contract from the Department of Homeland Security to supports its Immigration and Customs Enforcement facilities in the event of an emergency. The maximum total value of the contract is $385 million and consists of a 1-year base period with four 1-year options. KBR held the previous ICE contract from 2000 through 2005. The contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to expand existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs, KBR said. The contract may also provide migrant detention support to other government organizations in the event of an immigration emergency, as well as the development of a plan to react to a national emergency, such as a natural disaster, the company said.
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/read ... Num=137740
Bush's Mysterious 'New Programs'
http://www.rense.com/general69/bsmyst.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/ma ... ricans.htm
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/march2 ... _camps.htm
Flashback: Gulags For American Citizens In Final Planning Stages
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/march2 ... 6Hotel.htm
Detention Camp Jitters
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?sto ... 8133228613
Halliburton Detention Camps For Political Subversives
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/fe ... ncamps.htm
Forced Labor Camps in America
http://edit.store.yahoo.com/lib/reality ... ncamps.pdf
American Gulag...Coming Soon
http://www.rense.com/general66/gulag.htm
The prison industry in the United States:
big business or a new form of slavery?
http://www.patrickcrusade.org/prison_in ... n_USA.html
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Shoemaker
- captain of 100
- Posts: 410
On the subject of our future bondage Orson Pratt commented on it:
Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 17:289-306.
“Behold I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power, therefore I m will raise up unto my people a man who shall lead them like as Moses led the children O Israel, for ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, with an outstretched arm and as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.” (D&C. 103)
“It seems then that this people, at some future time in their sojourn here in this land, may possibly be in bondage greater then they are at the present time. I try to hope for the best, and to think that the bondage we are in and have been in for years, in consequence of the efforts of those who are striving to take away our rights as American citizens, and to trample us down in the dust; I say I have been in hopes that that would be all the bondage that was meant here in this prophecy, but I do not know but what there may be a greater signification to these words. I do not know what the purposes of the Lord are in relation to this particular thing. It may be that we shall have our rights completely taken from us; it may be, if we do not live sufficiently faithful before the Lord that he will yet bring us into still greater tribulation than that which we have hitherto had. It may be that we shall yet be in bondage like the Israelites in the land of Egypt; for the Lord has said that, when this man should be raised up, he would redeem his people by power out of bondage, and they should be led as their fathers were led at the first. Says the Lord—“I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers—‘mine angel shall go before you, but not my presence’—but I say unto you that mine angels shall go before you, and also my presence.”
“In these last days, in redeeming his people from bondage he has told us in plain words, that his angel should go before us and also his presence; and as, in the deliverance of Israel in ancient times the waters were divided and plagues sent forth upon the Egyptian nation, it would not surprise me at all if there should be a similar power manifested in the redemption of Zion. There may be a few individuals go to prepare the way, to purchase a little more land and get things in order; but when that is accomplished, this people as a body will return to that land, the Lord going with them.
“In ancient times, so long as the Lord did continue with Israel, he manifested his glory over their camp by a cloud by day; and whenever the cloud arose they followed it, and wherever it rested, there they pitched their tents and remained until the cloud moved again, when they again journeyed on. Now if Zion is to be redeemed after the same manner, you need not be surprised if the Lord God should let his glory, in the form of a cloud by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night, be over all the camp of Zion. This is what I look for and expect; and when the Lord says that his presence shall go with us, I expect he will be in the midst of this people as he was in the midst of ancient Israel until they rejected him from their midst.
“Did he converse with them in the wilderness before he left them? Yes, he talked with them out of a burning cloud in the burning mount, he spoke in their ears by the voice of a trump, and sounded in the ears of all the house of Israel the Ten Commandments, and they all, men, women and children, heard it. Do I look for similar manifestations of God’s power and presence when Zion is redeemed? I do. He may not come down upon any mountains, but he will converse with this people as audibly to men, women and children, as he did in ancient times. Zion must needs be redeemed by power, with an outstretched arm, the angel of the Lord going before the camp of this people, and they will return, and a remnant of the Lamanites with them to build up the city of Zion in Jackson County.
“Now I have told you about all I know, so far as it is revealed, concerning the redemption of Zion. There is one little thing, however, that I wish to name—that there will be quite a company of us before the redemption of Zion. Saith the Lord, in a certain revelation—“let mine army become very great, and let it become sanctified before me, that they may be as fair as the sun, as clear as the moon, that their banners may be terrible unto all the nations of the earth.” We learn from this declaration of the Lord, that before Zion is redeemed we are to be quite a numerous people; and this agrees with what is in the sixtieth chapter of Isaiah—“A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation.” That is our destiny. However much our enemies may howl, whatever may be our future tribulations, the Lord God has decreed that Zion shall become a strong nation, that the armies of Israel shall become very great, and not only very great, but they will be sanctified before him, and there will be such a power made manifest in their midst, that their banners will be terrible to all the nations of the earth. They will not be terrible because we outnumber the nations, but this terror of Zion which will be among the nations, will be because of the power of the great Jehovah that will be manifested in their midst’s, something that the nations will discern and understand; and when telegraphic dispatches are sent forth to the most distant parts of the earth, it will be said—“Who can stand before the armies of Zion? Behold, the Lord God is with them as a cloud by day, and as a pillar of fire by night.” Fear will seize upon the nations of the earth, and the banners of Zion will be terrible.
“I do not know that I have done justice to the subject of the redemption of Zion; if I have not it is because I do not sufficiently understand it. I do not know that I know anything in relation to the matter only what God has revealed. I have had no vision, no revelation in relation to that particular subject; yet I know, from what has been revealed to me, that these things are true, and that, in their times and seasons, every jot and every tittle thereof will be fulfilled. Amen.”
Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 17:289-306.
“Behold I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power, therefore I m will raise up unto my people a man who shall lead them like as Moses led the children O Israel, for ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, with an outstretched arm and as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.” (D&C. 103)
“It seems then that this people, at some future time in their sojourn here in this land, may possibly be in bondage greater then they are at the present time. I try to hope for the best, and to think that the bondage we are in and have been in for years, in consequence of the efforts of those who are striving to take away our rights as American citizens, and to trample us down in the dust; I say I have been in hopes that that would be all the bondage that was meant here in this prophecy, but I do not know but what there may be a greater signification to these words. I do not know what the purposes of the Lord are in relation to this particular thing. It may be that we shall have our rights completely taken from us; it may be, if we do not live sufficiently faithful before the Lord that he will yet bring us into still greater tribulation than that which we have hitherto had. It may be that we shall yet be in bondage like the Israelites in the land of Egypt; for the Lord has said that, when this man should be raised up, he would redeem his people by power out of bondage, and they should be led as their fathers were led at the first. Says the Lord—“I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers—‘mine angel shall go before you, but not my presence’—but I say unto you that mine angels shall go before you, and also my presence.”
“In these last days, in redeeming his people from bondage he has told us in plain words, that his angel should go before us and also his presence; and as, in the deliverance of Israel in ancient times the waters were divided and plagues sent forth upon the Egyptian nation, it would not surprise me at all if there should be a similar power manifested in the redemption of Zion. There may be a few individuals go to prepare the way, to purchase a little more land and get things in order; but when that is accomplished, this people as a body will return to that land, the Lord going with them.
“In ancient times, so long as the Lord did continue with Israel, he manifested his glory over their camp by a cloud by day; and whenever the cloud arose they followed it, and wherever it rested, there they pitched their tents and remained until the cloud moved again, when they again journeyed on. Now if Zion is to be redeemed after the same manner, you need not be surprised if the Lord God should let his glory, in the form of a cloud by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night, be over all the camp of Zion. This is what I look for and expect; and when the Lord says that his presence shall go with us, I expect he will be in the midst of this people as he was in the midst of ancient Israel until they rejected him from their midst.
“Did he converse with them in the wilderness before he left them? Yes, he talked with them out of a burning cloud in the burning mount, he spoke in their ears by the voice of a trump, and sounded in the ears of all the house of Israel the Ten Commandments, and they all, men, women and children, heard it. Do I look for similar manifestations of God’s power and presence when Zion is redeemed? I do. He may not come down upon any mountains, but he will converse with this people as audibly to men, women and children, as he did in ancient times. Zion must needs be redeemed by power, with an outstretched arm, the angel of the Lord going before the camp of this people, and they will return, and a remnant of the Lamanites with them to build up the city of Zion in Jackson County.
“Now I have told you about all I know, so far as it is revealed, concerning the redemption of Zion. There is one little thing, however, that I wish to name—that there will be quite a company of us before the redemption of Zion. Saith the Lord, in a certain revelation—“let mine army become very great, and let it become sanctified before me, that they may be as fair as the sun, as clear as the moon, that their banners may be terrible unto all the nations of the earth.” We learn from this declaration of the Lord, that before Zion is redeemed we are to be quite a numerous people; and this agrees with what is in the sixtieth chapter of Isaiah—“A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation.” That is our destiny. However much our enemies may howl, whatever may be our future tribulations, the Lord God has decreed that Zion shall become a strong nation, that the armies of Israel shall become very great, and not only very great, but they will be sanctified before him, and there will be such a power made manifest in their midst, that their banners will be terrible to all the nations of the earth. They will not be terrible because we outnumber the nations, but this terror of Zion which will be among the nations, will be because of the power of the great Jehovah that will be manifested in their midst’s, something that the nations will discern and understand; and when telegraphic dispatches are sent forth to the most distant parts of the earth, it will be said—“Who can stand before the armies of Zion? Behold, the Lord God is with them as a cloud by day, and as a pillar of fire by night.” Fear will seize upon the nations of the earth, and the banners of Zion will be terrible.
“I do not know that I have done justice to the subject of the redemption of Zion; if I have not it is because I do not sufficiently understand it. I do not know that I know anything in relation to the matter only what God has revealed. I have had no vision, no revelation in relation to that particular subject; yet I know, from what has been revealed to me, that these things are true, and that, in their times and seasons, every jot and every tittle thereof will be fulfilled. Amen.”
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EmmaLee
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10893
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Shoemaker
- captain of 100
- Posts: 410
Yes, I believe it will be unpleasant to say the least, wasn't it Moroni when he appeared to Joseph Smith several times repeating the same message over and over that he stressed that this dispensation is a time of judgment or something to that affect?
This idea of sending innocent people off to prison if they don’t go along with the party line isn’t new in the land of the free and the home of the brave. The following was in my daily newspaper just the other day:
Montana governor to pardon 78 convicted of sedition during WW1
“Helena, Mont.—It was a black mark on dozens of family histories that lingered for nearly nine decades—until a journalism professor and a group of law students examined what happened to citizens who spoke out against the government during World War 1. On Wednesday, nearly 80 people convicted of sedition amid the war’s anti-German hysteria were to receive the first posthumous pardons in Montana history, including one who was charged merely for calling the conflict a ‘rich man’s war’ and mocking food regulations during a time of rationing.
“Gov. Brian Schweitzer said the state was ‘about 80 years too late’ in pardoning the mostly working-class people of German descent who were convicted of breaking what was then one of the harshest sedition laws in the nation. ‘this should have been done a long time ago,’ Schweitzer said.
“Roughly 40 family members were expected at the ceremony, including descendants of farmers, butchers, carpenters and cooks.
“Their relatives were imprisoned for an average of 19 months, often based on casual comments made in saloons. At the time, profane language or insulting the virtue of women usually resulted in a longer sentence.
“Journalism professor Clem Work of the University of Montana said many were turned in by friends, acquaintances, bigots or in some cases by people jealous of their land holdings.
“‘Today’s a day of redemption and redress, helping the families put closure to the wounds and at the same time make an affirmative statement for free speech,’ said Work, who wrote a book on the case.
“Liquor salesman Ben Kahn spent 34 months in prison. ‘This is a rich man’s war, and we have no business in it’, he told a hotel owner. ‘The poor man has no show in this war. The soldiers are fighting the battles of the rich.’
“While some of the comments seem shockingly benign, others were less so. But even those who cussed the president and the flag should not be considered criminals, said Work, whose book, Darkest Before Dawn: Sedition and Free Speech in the American West, inspired law student s a the university tyo write petitions for the pardons and help find family members.
“These people merely expressed their opinions and made derogatory or critical remarks about the U.S., the war; the soldiers or the flag.’ He said. Family members were often shocked to learn a grandfather or uncle had been in prison.
“‘Whether they knew about it or not, it was a black spot in the family history,’ Work said. ‘Some families had hidden it away, trying to keep it from later generations.’ Under Montana’s sedition law, it was illegal to make “any disloyal, profane, violent, scurrilous, contemptuous, slurring or abusive” comment about the Constitution, the federal government, soldiers or sailors, the flag or the uniforms of the Army or Navy. Laws at the time even made it illegal to speak German. Schweitzer, whose German immigrant parents had recently arrived in Montana, said his grandmother was not allowed to speak the only language she knew while out in public.
After serving their sentences, many of those who were convicted moved out of the state and started new lives. Work warned that similar cases could happen again if the nation caves into fear and hysteria, pitting security against liberty. ‘It is not until decades later in these cases that we recognize we overstepped our bounds,’ Work said.
“Laws designed to enhance security after the 2001 terrorists attacks are encroaching on civil lierties, he said, adding that more attacks would increase pressure to restrict basic freedoms. The governor agreed. ‘In times when our country is pushing to our limits, those are the times when it is most important to remember individual rights,’ said Schweitzer, who has spoken out strongly against the USA Patriot Act.” (By Matt Gouras—Associated Press Writer, May 4, 2006.)
If imprisonment is our lot because we’re categorized by our new masters as dissenters and seditionist I don’t see too much difference in being unimprisoned in the New World Order where a world wide-government management system will control the affairs of society. One of its insiders, George Bernard Shaw, said way back in 1928: “I also made it quite clear that under Socialism you would not be allowed to be poor. You would be forcibly fed, clothed, lodged, taught, and employed whether you liked it or not. If it were discovered that you had not the character and industry enough to be worth all this trouble, you might possibly be executed in a kindly manner; but whilst you were permitted to live you would have to live well. (George B. Shaw, Intelligent Woman’s Guide to Socialism and Capitalism, P.470.) (Quoted in Prophets, Principles and National Survival by Jerreld L. Newquist, p.334.)
This idea of sending innocent people off to prison if they don’t go along with the party line isn’t new in the land of the free and the home of the brave. The following was in my daily newspaper just the other day:
Montana governor to pardon 78 convicted of sedition during WW1
“Helena, Mont.—It was a black mark on dozens of family histories that lingered for nearly nine decades—until a journalism professor and a group of law students examined what happened to citizens who spoke out against the government during World War 1. On Wednesday, nearly 80 people convicted of sedition amid the war’s anti-German hysteria were to receive the first posthumous pardons in Montana history, including one who was charged merely for calling the conflict a ‘rich man’s war’ and mocking food regulations during a time of rationing.
“Gov. Brian Schweitzer said the state was ‘about 80 years too late’ in pardoning the mostly working-class people of German descent who were convicted of breaking what was then one of the harshest sedition laws in the nation. ‘this should have been done a long time ago,’ Schweitzer said.
“Roughly 40 family members were expected at the ceremony, including descendants of farmers, butchers, carpenters and cooks.
“Their relatives were imprisoned for an average of 19 months, often based on casual comments made in saloons. At the time, profane language or insulting the virtue of women usually resulted in a longer sentence.
“Journalism professor Clem Work of the University of Montana said many were turned in by friends, acquaintances, bigots or in some cases by people jealous of their land holdings.
“‘Today’s a day of redemption and redress, helping the families put closure to the wounds and at the same time make an affirmative statement for free speech,’ said Work, who wrote a book on the case.
“Liquor salesman Ben Kahn spent 34 months in prison. ‘This is a rich man’s war, and we have no business in it’, he told a hotel owner. ‘The poor man has no show in this war. The soldiers are fighting the battles of the rich.’
“While some of the comments seem shockingly benign, others were less so. But even those who cussed the president and the flag should not be considered criminals, said Work, whose book, Darkest Before Dawn: Sedition and Free Speech in the American West, inspired law student s a the university tyo write petitions for the pardons and help find family members.
“These people merely expressed their opinions and made derogatory or critical remarks about the U.S., the war; the soldiers or the flag.’ He said. Family members were often shocked to learn a grandfather or uncle had been in prison.
“‘Whether they knew about it or not, it was a black spot in the family history,’ Work said. ‘Some families had hidden it away, trying to keep it from later generations.’ Under Montana’s sedition law, it was illegal to make “any disloyal, profane, violent, scurrilous, contemptuous, slurring or abusive” comment about the Constitution, the federal government, soldiers or sailors, the flag or the uniforms of the Army or Navy. Laws at the time even made it illegal to speak German. Schweitzer, whose German immigrant parents had recently arrived in Montana, said his grandmother was not allowed to speak the only language she knew while out in public.
After serving their sentences, many of those who were convicted moved out of the state and started new lives. Work warned that similar cases could happen again if the nation caves into fear and hysteria, pitting security against liberty. ‘It is not until decades later in these cases that we recognize we overstepped our bounds,’ Work said.
“Laws designed to enhance security after the 2001 terrorists attacks are encroaching on civil lierties, he said, adding that more attacks would increase pressure to restrict basic freedoms. The governor agreed. ‘In times when our country is pushing to our limits, those are the times when it is most important to remember individual rights,’ said Schweitzer, who has spoken out strongly against the USA Patriot Act.” (By Matt Gouras—Associated Press Writer, May 4, 2006.)
If imprisonment is our lot because we’re categorized by our new masters as dissenters and seditionist I don’t see too much difference in being unimprisoned in the New World Order where a world wide-government management system will control the affairs of society. One of its insiders, George Bernard Shaw, said way back in 1928: “I also made it quite clear that under Socialism you would not be allowed to be poor. You would be forcibly fed, clothed, lodged, taught, and employed whether you liked it or not. If it were discovered that you had not the character and industry enough to be worth all this trouble, you might possibly be executed in a kindly manner; but whilst you were permitted to live you would have to live well. (George B. Shaw, Intelligent Woman’s Guide to Socialism and Capitalism, P.470.) (Quoted in Prophets, Principles and National Survival by Jerreld L. Newquist, p.334.)
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EmmaLee
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10893
It also occurred to me while reading these posts that part of - and I repeat, only PART of - the bondage our scriptures and church leaders have talked about that would occur in the last days could very well be the financial bondage SO MANY LDS people are in right now. I'm referring to the debt Pres. Hinckley and others have talked so much about in the last 7 years. They repeatedly and constantly are telling us to get out of debt. Many well-educated men in our ward are out of work - some have been for over a year now. Two others have lost law suits and have huge legal fees that they're in debt for. Still others live for competing with their neighbors - especially their LDS neighbors. "They got a hot tub, so we have to get one. They went on a cruise, so we have to go on one. Her husband bought her a huge new wedding ring (this is a pandemic in our ward right now - and what an odd thing, methinks), so my husband has to buy me one." Several have filed bankruptcy - probably more that I'm just not aware of. Being in financial debt is obviously a huge problem for many church members and I can't help but think that this kind of bondage is at least a "foreshadowing" of a more literal and physical bondage yet to come. Yet, do we listen to the prophet? Do we follow his advice and get out of debt/financial bondage?
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Shoemaker
- captain of 100
- Posts: 410
Yes, your referring to Heber C. Kimball prophesy to Amanda H. Wilcox wherein he says:
"After a while the Gentiles will gather to this place by the thousands, and Salt Lake will be classified among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the result will be financial bondage.
"Persecution comes next, and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize, and others will stand still, not knowing what to do. 'Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people.'
"The Judgments of God will be poured out upon the wicked to the extent that our elders from far and near will be called home. Or in other words, the gospel will be taken from the Gentiles and later on will be carried to the Jews.
"The western boundaries of the state of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that, as President Young tells us, when we return to that place, 'There will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.'
"Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to a test that will try the integrity of the best of them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes.
"Then the Prophet Joseph and others will make their appearance and those who have remained faithful will be selected to return to Jackson county, Missouri, and take part in the upbuilding of that beautiful city, the New Jerusalem."
I believe you could be right, could finanical bondage also mean the obligation to pay back to the government any welfare checks we've been recipients of or Pell grants we've been beneficiaries of or any other government entitlement program we participate in? Could financial bondage be also intreperted as debtors prison. Maybe this is the reason Bush recently changed the bankruptcy laws and made it harder to declare bankruptcy for American citizens. Here is what Wikipedia's online encyclopedia says about debtors prison and debt bondage.
A debtor's prison is a prison for people unable to pay a debt to another. Prior to the mid 19th century debtor's prisons were a common way to deal with unpaid debt. In the United Kingdom it was totally abolished in 1861.
Debtor's prisons varied in the amount of freedom they allowed the debtor. With access to a little bit of money a debtor could pay for some reasonable freedoms. Some allowed conducting business and having visitors over various hours. The father of the English author Charles Dickens was sent to one of these prisons.
Debt bondage or bonded labor is a means of paying off loans with direct labor instead of currency or goods. It is either a kind of indenture or truck system, and is technically a form of unfree labor. Historically, in the USA, it is also sometimes called peonage. (Note, however, that the word peon has broader implications and usage in Latin America.) Where children have to work due to debt bondage, this is considered a worst form of child labor.
Historical background to bonded labor
Prior to the early modern age, feudal and serfdom systems were the predominant political and economic systems in Europe. These systems were based on the holding of all land in fief or fee, and the resulting relation of lord to vassal, and was characterized by homage, legal and military service of tenants, and forfeiture. Many historians have argued that this system was also established in some Latin American countries, following European settlement.
A modernization of the feudal system was "peonage", where debtors were bound in servitude to their creditors until their debts were paid. Although peons — from a technical point of view — are only obliged to a creditor monetarily, from a practical perspective, the resultant relationship of a peon to the creditor is destructive of basic personal autonomy within the society.
Historical peonage
Peonage is a system where laborers are bound in servitude until their debts are paid in full. Those bound by such a system are known, in the US, as peons.
Employers may force laborers to buy from employer-owned stores at inflated prices in order to keep them in debt. This method is an unjust variation of the truck system (or company store system), in which workers are exploited by being paid only in insufficient amounts of goods and/or services. In these circumstances, peonage is a form of unfree labor.
Such systems -- just and unjust -- have existed in many places at many times throughout history.
Historical examples
• In Colonial America, some settlers used indentured service to obtain passage or an initial settlement, then continued working independently after completing their bonded labor.
• The American South - Such a system was often used in the southern United States after the American Civil War where African-American and poor white farmers, known as sharecroppers, were often forced to purchase seed and supplies from the owner of the land they farmed and pay the owner in a share of the crop.
• In Peru a peonage system existed from the 1500s until land reform in the 1950s. One estate in Peru that existed from the late 1500s until the end of peonage had up to 1,700 peons employed and boasted its own jail. Peons were expected to work a minimum of three days a week for their landlord and more if necessary to complete assigned work. Workers were paid a symbolic 2 cents per year. Workers were unable to travel outside of their assigned lands without permission and were not allowed to organize any independent community activity.
Modern views
According to Anti-Slavery International, "A person enters debt bondage when their labor is demanded as a means of repayment of a loan, or of money given in advance. Usually, people are tricked or trapped into working for no pay or very little pay (in return for such a loan), in conditions which violate their human rights. Invariably, the value of the work done by a bonded laborer is greater that the original sum of money borrowed or advanced."
At international law
Debt bondage has been defined by the United Nations as a form of "modern day slavery" [1] and is prohibited by international law. It persists nonetheless especially in developing nations, which have few mechanisms for credit security or bankruptcy, and where fewer people hold formal title to land or possessions. According to some economists, for example Hernando de Soto, this is a major barrier to development in those countries - entrepreneurs do not dare take risks and cannot get credit because they hold no collateral and may burden families for generations to come.
Where children are forced to work because of debt bondage of the family, this is considered not only child labor, but a worst form of child labor in terms of the Worst Forms of Child Labour Convention, 1999 of the International Labour Organization.
Despite the UN prohibition, Anti-Slavery International estimates that "between 10 and 20 million people are being subjected to debt bondage today."
Modern example: prostitution
News media in western Europe regularly carry reports about one particular kind of debt bondage: women from Eastern Europe who are forced to work in prostitution as a way to pay off the "debt" they acquired when they were illegally brought over the border. This form of debt bondage also takes place in other parts of the world. See article on the trafficking in human beings.
Marxist analysis
According to Marxist economists, debt bondage is characteristic of feudal economies, where families are considered the responsible unit for financial relationships, and where heirs continue to owe parents' debts upon their deaths. Fully capitalist economies are characterized by the individual taking all responsibility, and such mechanisms as bankruptcy and death taxes reducing creditors' rights (while increasing the power of the state). Heirs are freed from the creditor, but at the cost of a drastically increased power accruing to the state itself.
Debt bondage is often a form of disguised slavery in which the subject is not legally owned, but is instead bound by a contract to perform labor to work off a debt, under terms that make it impossible to completely retire the debt and thereby escape from the contract.
See also
• Debtor's prison
• Indentured servant
• Karl Marx
• Slavery
• Trafficking in human beings
• Wage slavery
• Work Orphan
• Worst Forms of Child Labour Convention
• Bondage in Pakistan
"After a while the Gentiles will gather to this place by the thousands, and Salt Lake will be classified among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the result will be financial bondage.
"Persecution comes next, and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize, and others will stand still, not knowing what to do. 'Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people.'
"The Judgments of God will be poured out upon the wicked to the extent that our elders from far and near will be called home. Or in other words, the gospel will be taken from the Gentiles and later on will be carried to the Jews.
"The western boundaries of the state of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that, as President Young tells us, when we return to that place, 'There will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.'
"Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to a test that will try the integrity of the best of them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes.
"Then the Prophet Joseph and others will make their appearance and those who have remained faithful will be selected to return to Jackson county, Missouri, and take part in the upbuilding of that beautiful city, the New Jerusalem."
I believe you could be right, could finanical bondage also mean the obligation to pay back to the government any welfare checks we've been recipients of or Pell grants we've been beneficiaries of or any other government entitlement program we participate in? Could financial bondage be also intreperted as debtors prison. Maybe this is the reason Bush recently changed the bankruptcy laws and made it harder to declare bankruptcy for American citizens. Here is what Wikipedia's online encyclopedia says about debtors prison and debt bondage.
A debtor's prison is a prison for people unable to pay a debt to another. Prior to the mid 19th century debtor's prisons were a common way to deal with unpaid debt. In the United Kingdom it was totally abolished in 1861.
Debtor's prisons varied in the amount of freedom they allowed the debtor. With access to a little bit of money a debtor could pay for some reasonable freedoms. Some allowed conducting business and having visitors over various hours. The father of the English author Charles Dickens was sent to one of these prisons.
Debt bondage or bonded labor is a means of paying off loans with direct labor instead of currency or goods. It is either a kind of indenture or truck system, and is technically a form of unfree labor. Historically, in the USA, it is also sometimes called peonage. (Note, however, that the word peon has broader implications and usage in Latin America.) Where children have to work due to debt bondage, this is considered a worst form of child labor.
Historical background to bonded labor
Prior to the early modern age, feudal and serfdom systems were the predominant political and economic systems in Europe. These systems were based on the holding of all land in fief or fee, and the resulting relation of lord to vassal, and was characterized by homage, legal and military service of tenants, and forfeiture. Many historians have argued that this system was also established in some Latin American countries, following European settlement.
A modernization of the feudal system was "peonage", where debtors were bound in servitude to their creditors until their debts were paid. Although peons — from a technical point of view — are only obliged to a creditor monetarily, from a practical perspective, the resultant relationship of a peon to the creditor is destructive of basic personal autonomy within the society.
Historical peonage
Peonage is a system where laborers are bound in servitude until their debts are paid in full. Those bound by such a system are known, in the US, as peons.
Employers may force laborers to buy from employer-owned stores at inflated prices in order to keep them in debt. This method is an unjust variation of the truck system (or company store system), in which workers are exploited by being paid only in insufficient amounts of goods and/or services. In these circumstances, peonage is a form of unfree labor.
Such systems -- just and unjust -- have existed in many places at many times throughout history.
Historical examples
• In Colonial America, some settlers used indentured service to obtain passage or an initial settlement, then continued working independently after completing their bonded labor.
• The American South - Such a system was often used in the southern United States after the American Civil War where African-American and poor white farmers, known as sharecroppers, were often forced to purchase seed and supplies from the owner of the land they farmed and pay the owner in a share of the crop.
• In Peru a peonage system existed from the 1500s until land reform in the 1950s. One estate in Peru that existed from the late 1500s until the end of peonage had up to 1,700 peons employed and boasted its own jail. Peons were expected to work a minimum of three days a week for their landlord and more if necessary to complete assigned work. Workers were paid a symbolic 2 cents per year. Workers were unable to travel outside of their assigned lands without permission and were not allowed to organize any independent community activity.
Modern views
According to Anti-Slavery International, "A person enters debt bondage when their labor is demanded as a means of repayment of a loan, or of money given in advance. Usually, people are tricked or trapped into working for no pay or very little pay (in return for such a loan), in conditions which violate their human rights. Invariably, the value of the work done by a bonded laborer is greater that the original sum of money borrowed or advanced."
At international law
Debt bondage has been defined by the United Nations as a form of "modern day slavery" [1] and is prohibited by international law. It persists nonetheless especially in developing nations, which have few mechanisms for credit security or bankruptcy, and where fewer people hold formal title to land or possessions. According to some economists, for example Hernando de Soto, this is a major barrier to development in those countries - entrepreneurs do not dare take risks and cannot get credit because they hold no collateral and may burden families for generations to come.
Where children are forced to work because of debt bondage of the family, this is considered not only child labor, but a worst form of child labor in terms of the Worst Forms of Child Labour Convention, 1999 of the International Labour Organization.
Despite the UN prohibition, Anti-Slavery International estimates that "between 10 and 20 million people are being subjected to debt bondage today."
Modern example: prostitution
News media in western Europe regularly carry reports about one particular kind of debt bondage: women from Eastern Europe who are forced to work in prostitution as a way to pay off the "debt" they acquired when they were illegally brought over the border. This form of debt bondage also takes place in other parts of the world. See article on the trafficking in human beings.
Marxist analysis
According to Marxist economists, debt bondage is characteristic of feudal economies, where families are considered the responsible unit for financial relationships, and where heirs continue to owe parents' debts upon their deaths. Fully capitalist economies are characterized by the individual taking all responsibility, and such mechanisms as bankruptcy and death taxes reducing creditors' rights (while increasing the power of the state). Heirs are freed from the creditor, but at the cost of a drastically increased power accruing to the state itself.
Debt bondage is often a form of disguised slavery in which the subject is not legally owned, but is instead bound by a contract to perform labor to work off a debt, under terms that make it impossible to completely retire the debt and thereby escape from the contract.
See also
• Debtor's prison
• Indentured servant
• Karl Marx
• Slavery
• Trafficking in human beings
• Wage slavery
• Work Orphan
• Worst Forms of Child Labour Convention
• Bondage in Pakistan
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sbenard
- captain of 100
- Posts: 228
- Location: Bountiful, UT USA
a few additional thoughts
Shoemaker, that was my first exposure to the Orson Pratt talk that you quoted from the Journal of Discourses. I had two impressions from the talk.
In the first section, Orson did not appear to me to be prophesying. His talk was all conjecture. He kept saying, "this might happen," or "such-and-such might be possible". or "perhaps such and such," etc. This does not appear to be prophecy, since he appeared to be simply expressing what to his mind might be possibilities.
At the end, however, he was speaking more like this: "Such and such WILL happen", etc. That sounds like something he has seen in vision or in a dream which he is certain will happen.
I saw a distinction between the two thoughts that he expressed.
Re: debt
When the new bankruptcy laws were instituted last year, my first reaction was, "Good. People have been using bankruptcy too readily." Then, I read an article (sorry, I don't recall where, although I think it might have been on marketwatch.com) in which the author went through the new laws and explained why it had become a new form of legal indentured servitude. Then, last week, I was listening to Suze Orman, and she said bankruptcy was no longer possible. It has become almost impossible, as I understand it.
I then began to realize that perhaps these new laws might be part of the plans of secret combinations of central bankers to bring the American people into debt and then enslave them by making bankruptcy impossible. Would that not be a form of legal debtor's prison? It certainly appears to serve their purposes, no?
The Founders included bankruptcy in the Constitution because they wanted to have some sort of release valve for those who have taken some risk and lost so that they could eventually get back on their feet and become productive members of society rather than become slaves. Some of the first inhabitants of America from Europe were brought here involuntarily as debtors who were sent here to penal colonies. The Founders knew this and didn't want people to be placed in slavery for the rest of their lives due solely to debt.
I wonder now if perhaps we have overreacted and created new laws that will create a permanent class of indebted citizens who will be forced to work throughout their lives to repay debts without any hope for a future.
In the first section, Orson did not appear to me to be prophesying. His talk was all conjecture. He kept saying, "this might happen," or "such-and-such might be possible". or "perhaps such and such," etc. This does not appear to be prophecy, since he appeared to be simply expressing what to his mind might be possibilities.
At the end, however, he was speaking more like this: "Such and such WILL happen", etc. That sounds like something he has seen in vision or in a dream which he is certain will happen.
I saw a distinction between the two thoughts that he expressed.
Re: debt
When the new bankruptcy laws were instituted last year, my first reaction was, "Good. People have been using bankruptcy too readily." Then, I read an article (sorry, I don't recall where, although I think it might have been on marketwatch.com) in which the author went through the new laws and explained why it had become a new form of legal indentured servitude. Then, last week, I was listening to Suze Orman, and she said bankruptcy was no longer possible. It has become almost impossible, as I understand it.
I then began to realize that perhaps these new laws might be part of the plans of secret combinations of central bankers to bring the American people into debt and then enslave them by making bankruptcy impossible. Would that not be a form of legal debtor's prison? It certainly appears to serve their purposes, no?
The Founders included bankruptcy in the Constitution because they wanted to have some sort of release valve for those who have taken some risk and lost so that they could eventually get back on their feet and become productive members of society rather than become slaves. Some of the first inhabitants of America from Europe were brought here involuntarily as debtors who were sent here to penal colonies. The Founders knew this and didn't want people to be placed in slavery for the rest of their lives due solely to debt.
I wonder now if perhaps we have overreacted and created new laws that will create a permanent class of indebted citizens who will be forced to work throughout their lives to repay debts without any hope for a future.
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sbenard
- captain of 100
- Posts: 228
- Location: Bountiful, UT USA
Intensity of future persecution
I have heard similar sentiments to the ones you guys have mentioned here about future persecution being even more intense than in the past. I was familiar with the one by Heber C. Kimballl in which he said that the Saints would be praying day and night for deliverance. I was not familiar with Neal Maxwell's thoughts.
I do remember, however, just a few years ago, Elder Packer said something of a similar nature. He said that persecution will return to test the Saints, and that it would be greater in intensity that what the early Saints had suffered.
I do remember, however, just a few years ago, Elder Packer said something of a similar nature. He said that persecution will return to test the Saints, and that it would be greater in intensity that what the early Saints had suffered.
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lundbaek
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11123
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
Debt
Just a brief comment about debt, or indebtedness. I think a lot of the responsibility for debt in our society lies with the lenders. Money lending is a business, and like nearly all businesses, involves a certain amount of risk, which in my opinion should be shared between lender and borrower. Considering the aggressiveness of lending institutions in tempting prospective borrowers, I don't have any sympathy if they get stung, as long as the borrower is not just doing a rip off.
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Shoemaker
- captain of 100
- Posts: 410
Re: Intensity of future persecution
This brings to mind the statement by Bruce R. McConkie given (I don't remember the exact date) in General Conference some years back wherein he said: "The day of the martyr is not past".sbenard wrote:I have heard similar sentiments to the ones you guys have mentioned here about future persecution being even more intense than in the past. I was familiar with the one by Heber C. Kimballl in which he said that the Saints would be praying day and night for deliverance. I was not familiar with Neal Maxwell's thoughts.
I do remember, however, just a few years ago, Elder Packer said something of a similar nature. He said that persecution will return to test the Saints, and that it would be greater in intensity that what the early Saints had suffered.
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sbenard
- captain of 100
- Posts: 228
- Location: Bountiful, UT USA
Re: Intensity of future persecution
Along the same lines is this quote:
Too often we bask in our comfortable complacency and rationalize that the ravages of war, economic disaster, famine, and earthquake cannot happen here. Those who believe this are either not acquainted with the revelations of the Lord, or they do not believe them. Those who smugly think these calamities will not happen, that they somehow will be set aside because of the righteouness of the Saints, are deceived and will rue the day they harbored such a delusion.
Ezra Taft Benson, "Prepare for the Days of Tribulation", Ensign, Nov. 1980, pg. 32.
Too often we bask in our comfortable complacency and rationalize that the ravages of war, economic disaster, famine, and earthquake cannot happen here. Those who believe this are either not acquainted with the revelations of the Lord, or they do not believe them. Those who smugly think these calamities will not happen, that they somehow will be set aside because of the righteouness of the Saints, are deceived and will rue the day they harbored such a delusion.
Ezra Taft Benson, "Prepare for the Days of Tribulation", Ensign, Nov. 1980, pg. 32.
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sbenard
- captain of 100
- Posts: 228
- Location: Bountiful, UT USA
debt
I was strongly impressed to eliminate ALL my debts when Pres. Hinckley in approximately Oct 2000 or Oct 1999 mentioned Pharoah's dream of the five fat kine being eaten by the five lean kine. He then said that he felt strongly that it was time we got our houses in order, debt-wise.
Then, just six months later in the following April General Conference, he mentioned the SAME Pharoah's dream again, and said that he COULDN'T GET IT OUT OF HIS MIND! When the prophet speaks to the same subject, quoting the same scripture, and says he can't get it out of his mind in two successive General Conferences, WE HAD BETTER PAY ATTENTION! We have been sufficiently warned!
I paid off all my debts within a few months, and am debt-free (not even a mortgage) until today.
Then, just six months later in the following April General Conference, he mentioned the SAME Pharoah's dream again, and said that he COULDN'T GET IT OUT OF HIS MIND! When the prophet speaks to the same subject, quoting the same scripture, and says he can't get it out of his mind in two successive General Conferences, WE HAD BETTER PAY ATTENTION! We have been sufficiently warned!
I paid off all my debts within a few months, and am debt-free (not even a mortgage) until today.
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Shoemaker
- captain of 100
- Posts: 410
Good information, I'll look them up. I just wish my kids were out of debt.
I almost forgot D&C 112:23-25; I think that's right. It basically says that Gods judgments would start at his house (church) and proceed from this starting point to all nations. So no the members of the church cannot afford to get comfortable in their righteousness and believe “all is well in Zion”. I’m afraid that many of us will be taken by surprise ("taken unawares" some where in Luke) because ignorance is bliss and with the trust we have in our political leaders and main stream media, the Lords message (“don’t put your trust in the arm of flesh” and “prepare”) could get lost if we're not focused.
I read the book Inspired Prophetic Warnings about 6 months ago; I think the author was Lundwall. Any way I vaguely remember a theme that rang throughout the book. It was something to the affect that Zion will be first to get spanked and straightened out then the Lord will work on those of the world. I've just located it again I'll have to give it a second read and verify.
I almost forgot D&C 112:23-25; I think that's right. It basically says that Gods judgments would start at his house (church) and proceed from this starting point to all nations. So no the members of the church cannot afford to get comfortable in their righteousness and believe “all is well in Zion”. I’m afraid that many of us will be taken by surprise ("taken unawares" some where in Luke) because ignorance is bliss and with the trust we have in our political leaders and main stream media, the Lords message (“don’t put your trust in the arm of flesh” and “prepare”) could get lost if we're not focused.
I read the book Inspired Prophetic Warnings about 6 months ago; I think the author was Lundwall. Any way I vaguely remember a theme that rang throughout the book. It was something to the affect that Zion will be first to get spanked and straightened out then the Lord will work on those of the world. I've just located it again I'll have to give it a second read and verify.
