Anyone Seen this Plan Play Out Before..??

[JK4Woods]

Umm… for those wondering about other slightly disturbing trends in the church…

“Why so many new Mormon temples when LDS growth is flat?
If yesterday’s temple was a prize bestowed on area members when they had achieved certain milestones related to growth, today’s temple is a jumper cable, a tool to re-energize the sputtering engine of the LDS Church”.

https://religionnews.com/2021/05/20/why ... h-is-flat/


We’ve seen this before when the Catholics had such great tax revenue in the Middle Ages, and went into a building program of giant ornate cathedrals everywhere, and extensive missionary efforts everywhere with attendant rise in income.



I’m just saying, once a church gets into this groove, it’s really hard to get out of it.

While it’s said the Catholics sold forgiveness for money, the LDS effectively sells eternal blessings for full tithing.

[Fred]

Real estate is a pretty good investment. They aren't making any more of it.

Buy 100 acres near a city. Spend less than $5 million on a temple. Sub-divide 80 acres into third acre plots. Allow a builder (high LDS tithe payer) to build homes on half of the lots. Sell the remaining half for 50 times the price paid. Church owned finance company holds the paper.

Rinse - Repeat.

It's not about membership. It's about money.

Herriman, Jordan River and Magna are prime examples of turning cow pasture into money.

[Robin Hood]

We've been here before.
Between 1959 and 1962 Pres. Moyle of the FP started a building programme which nearly bankrupted the church. He committed to building chapels all over the place, especially in the UK, which weren't justified based on the membership numbers. His attitude was that he would build the chapels and the missionaries would fill them.
It was a stroke of genius. The chapels were built and the missionaries filled them.
Perhaps the church leadership is now pursuing a similar programme with regard to temples.

[Niemand]

Umm… for those wondering about other slightly disturbing trends in the church…

“Why so many new Mormon temples when LDS growth is flat?
If yesterday’s temple was a prize bestowed on area members when they had achieved certain milestones related to growth, today’s temple is a jumper cable, a tool to re-energize the sputtering engine of the LDS Church”.

https://religionnews.com/2021/05/20/why ... h-is-flat/

We’ve seen this before when the Catholics had such great tax revenue in the Middle Ages, and went into a building program of giant ornate cathedrals everywhere, and extensive missionary efforts everywhere with attendant rise in income.

I’m just saying, once a church gets into this groove, it’s really hard to get out of it.

While it’s said the Catholics sold forgiveness for money, the LDS effectively sells eternal blessings for full tithing.

It is worth pointing out that RC cathedral building took place over a long period and still does. Some RC cathedrals took centuries to build. Some of them were started or built long before the true Reformation kicked off (although groups such as the Lollards were around long before.)

Yes, there are parallels.

[Niemand]

We've been here before.
Between 1959 and 1962 Pres. Moyle of the FP started a building programme which nearly bankrupted the church. He committed to building chapels all over the place, especially in the UK, which weren't justified based on the membership numbers. His attitude was that he would build the chapels and the missionaries would fill them.
It was a stroke of genius. The chapels were built and the missionaries filled them.
Perhaps the church leadership is now pursuing a similar programme with regard to temples.

As far as I can tell, this was one of the biggest periods of growth in the UK in the post-migration period. I often wonder what would have happened if the LDS hadn't migrated in the early days. I think they would be much more entrenched.

[JK4Woods]

We've been here before.
Between 1959 and 1962 Pres. Moyle of the FP started a building programme which nearly bankrupted the church. He committed to building chapels all over the place, especially in the UK, which weren't justified based on the membership numbers. His attitude was that he would build the chapels and the missionaries would fill them.
It was a stroke of genius. The chapels were built and the missionaries filled them.
Perhaps the church leadership is now pursuing a similar programme with regard to temples.

Yes, it did seem to work in East Germany.
Maybe that temple announced for mainland China will open the doors of China…

[gkearney]

We've been here before.
Between 1959 and 1962 Pres. Moyle of the FP started a building programme which nearly bankrupted the church. He committed to building chapels all over the place, especially in the UK, which weren't justified based on the membership numbers. His attitude was that he would build the chapels and the missionaries would fill them.
It was a stroke of genius. The chapels were built and the missionaries filled them.
Perhaps the church leadership is now pursuing a similar programme with regard to temples.

Yes, it did seem to work in East Germany.
Maybe that temple announced for mainland China will open the doors of China…

The Freiburg DDR Temple is somewhat of an outlier.

The Church had existed in East Germany before the war and continued to function following the war under the Communist government. In fact, the temple was built in Feiburg at the invitation of the government as it would mean that the Communist government would not have to be issuing travel visas to Switzerland for members to attend the temple there, something they never much cared to do. This despite the fact that no East German member ever defected to the west while on a visa to go to the temple.

One interesting note is that once permission to build the temple in the DDR was granted the work progressed without any difficulties from the wider community something that can't be said for the construction of the Frankfurt temple in West Germany.

[JohnnyL]

We've been here before.
Between 1959 and 1962 Pres. Moyle of the FP started a building programme which nearly bankrupted the church. He committed to building chapels all over the place, especially in the UK, which weren't justified based on the membership numbers. His attitude was that he would build the chapels and the missionaries would fill them.
It was a stroke of genius. The chapels were built and the missionaries filled them.
Perhaps the church leadership is now pursuing a similar programme with regard to temples.

Which put the Church in dbt, making it necessary for correlation, and bringing the RS into part of the Church. Perhaps President McKay had a reason through the Spirit for letting President Moyle continue.

[Church_of_the_Lamb]

Real estate is a pretty good investment. They aren't making any more of it.

Buy 100 acres near a city. Spend less than $5 million on a temple. Sub-divide 80 acres into third acre plots. Allow a builder (high LDS tithe payer) to build homes on half of the lots. Sell the remaining half for 50 times the price paid. Church owned finance company holds the paper.

Rinse - Repeat.

It's not about membership. It's about money.

Herriman, Jordan River and Magna are prime examples of turning cow pasture into money.

I was seated at a dinner, one table over from the local billionaire, and overheard when he discussed this exact scenario with some investors.

[Light Seeker]

Real estate is a pretty good investment. They aren't making any more of it.

Buy 100 acres near a city. Spend less than $5 million on a temple. Sub-divide 80 acres into third acre plots. Allow a builder (high LDS tithe payer) to build homes on half of the lots. Sell the remaining half for 50 times the price paid. Church owned finance company holds the paper.

Rinse - Repeat.

It's not about membership. It's about money.

Herriman, Jordan River and Magna are prime examples of turning cow pasture into money.

And Smithfield

[Niemand]

To be fair, while some of the temples are dull looking, some of them are very pretty and I can think of worse things to see out of your window.

[Light Seeker]

To be fair, while some of the temples are dull looking, some of them are very pretty and I can think of worse things to see out of your window.

Definitely true . Property values near temples not only hold their value but increase greatly it seems ..

[Light Seeker]

It would be interesting to me to track who knows where the future temples are going to be placed , when they knew it and what individuals or groups benefit financially. Lots of white collar leaders who have ties to realty development; whether professionally or dabbling in it ….


Hmmmm……

[Niemand]

It would be interesting to me to track who knows where the future temples are going to be placed , when they knew it and what individuals or groups benefit financially. Lots of white collar leaders who have ties to realty development; whether professionally or dabbling in it ….

Hmmmm……

Scotland was promised a temple decades ago. It has never happened. We have a larger active church population than some European nations which have temples and also islands and remote areas.

Instead there is now a temple half way between the two current ones in the UK, located near Solihull where the church holds land.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

To be fair, while some of the temples are dull looking, some of them are very pretty and I can think of worse things to see out of your window.

Definitely true . Property values near temples not only hold their value but increase greatly it seems ..

An exception would likely be the Johannesburg temple. The area of the city where its located has taken a dive into poverty, crime, etc. The temple is surrounded by high barbed wire fencing and security guards man the entrances. Walking at night is impossible. Walking outside near the temple is dangerous. The office building and hostel accommodations for the area authorities and church lawyer are located on the grounds behind multiple security fences and guards. The property values have plummeted in that area. Bad investment?

[Light Seeker]

It would be interesting to me to track who knows where the future temples are going to be placed , when they knew it and what individuals or groups benefit financially. Lots of white collar leaders who have ties to realty development; whether professionally or dabbling in it ….

Hmmmm……

Scotland was promised a temple decades ago. It has never happened. We have a larger active church population than some European nations which have temples and also islands and remote areas.

Instead there is now a temple half way between the two current ones in the UK, located near Solihull where the church holds land.

Possibly not politically expedient enough currently.

There definitely seems to be a pattern …

[Silver Pie]

We've been here before.
Between 1959 and 1962 Pres. Moyle of the FP started a building programme which nearly bankrupted the church. He committed to building chapels all over the place, especially in the UK, which weren't justified based on the membership numbers. His attitude was that he would build the chapels and the missionaries would fill them.
It was a stroke of genius. The chapels were built and the missionaries filled them.
Perhaps the church leadership is now pursuing a similar programme with regard to temples.

This was also done on the Hopi reservation, at least. Maybe other reservations. When I was in Polacca decades and decades ago, there were a tiny number of people actively going to church (even the bishop didn't go. One of the Sundays I was there, he attended and tearfully told the congregation that he was going to do better in regards to his attendance and calling). The only reason they had a building was because it had been part of that building project, iirc.

[Silver Pie]

It would be interesting to me to track who knows where the future temples are going to be placed , when they knew it and what individuals or groups benefit financially. Lots of white collar leaders who have ties to realty development; whether professionally or dabbling in it ….


Hmmmm……

I would like to know, out of all of the temples that have been announced over the last 30 years, how many have been built, and how many unbuilt ones have land already purchased. And the number of years since the announcements of temples that have no purchased land/remain unbuilt.

I suspect the one in China would be on the list, since the announcement in conference was a surprise to the Chinese gov't. No one had asked them if one could be built in their country.

[zionssuburb]

Real estate is a pretty good investment. They aren't making any more of it.

Buy 100 acres near a city. Spend less than $5 million on a temple. Sub-divide 80 acres into third acre plots. Allow a builder (high LDS tithe payer) to build homes on half of the lots. Sell the remaining half for 50 times the price paid. Church owned finance company holds the paper.

Rinse - Repeat.

It's not about membership. It's about money.

Herriman, Jordan River and Magna are prime examples of turning cow pasture into money.

It isn't always successful, the Kansas City Temple housing development was empty for several years until they reduce the prices of homes to normal, regular people prices.

[zionssuburb]

Temples were, 2 decades ago, rewarded when growth happened, It's why those of us that lived outside Utah, saw so much growth of wards, you never saw WARD SPLITS outside of Utah because nobody was waiting around for DOUBLE the numbers before creating a new ward (we made 3 out of 2) Stakes were, instead of growing to 10-15 units, were limited to the regular 8 or so, creating more and more stakes, because if you could create more stakes you could qualify for Temples. In addition there was a while there were 'historical' temples were being 'donated' by wealthy members (Nauvoo / Winter Quarters) to name 2 of them. The idea of growth=temple is OVER, it hasn't been that way for a while. Now, what is going on, is a desire for members to be no more than 2 hours drive from a temple for a majority of members. If you listen in Conference, this is the measurement (might be 3 hours)

[Great8]

Real estate is a pretty good investment. They aren't making any more of it.

Buy 100 acres near a city. Spend less than $5 million on a temple. Sub-divide 80 acres into third acre plots. Allow a builder (high LDS tithe payer) to build homes on half of the lots. Sell the remaining half for 50 times the price paid. Church owned finance company holds the paper.

Rinse - Repeat.

It's not about membership. It's about money.

Herriman, Jordan River and Magna are prime examples of turning cow pasture into money.

I was seated at a dinner, one table over from the local billionaire, and overheard when he discussed this exact scenario with some investors.

Don't forget the 10% kickback to the church from the contractor.