Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

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endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

I had a wonderful meeting with one of my local leaders yesterday while attending Stake Temple Day (my wife was attending the temple, and I was watching the kids and fellowshipping with many old and new friends from the stake in our Stake Center, which is right across the street from our temple).

Providentially, and opportunity arose to meet with one of my local leaders, and we were able to have what I consider to be a very productive meeting. I'm including here the message I sent him this morning, which I hope will help you understand what position the institutional Church has taken in regard to my requests, as well as my response. I've redacted the name and title of this local leader in an effort to protect their identity and respect their privacy.

###########BEGIN############

<redacted>,

Thank you for yesterday's impromptu conversation, and your humble response to <redacted>'s request to move away from the temple doors for a moment while she exited the building. I enjoyed the conversation very much, and feel like it was very productive on many levels. Plus, I ended up getting to minister to sister <redacted> there at the end, which was a blessing to both she and I - except it gave her an opportunity to remind me she wants me to sing on Easter. No good deed goes unpunished, I suppose. :)

To begin I'd like to tell you that I've prayed about what you counseled me to do and I will be "letting things settle". The date I've chosen to begin this exercise is April 7th.

As I mentioned, I'd like you to pray about what you and I can do during those six months to build a strong, solid relationship of trust since, as you mentioned and I confirmed, the relationship of trust between myself and the leadership of the Church is almost completely severed at this point in time. I'm grateful that even with these couple of interviews we've been able to do in the past couple of weeks, my overall trust in you is already growing. As I prayed about it, here's what I felt inspired to ask of you in regards to these next six months:

I would love to set up a recurring appointment with you at whatever interval your schedule allows where we can sit together for an hour or two and study the scriptures together. I appreciate your willingness to use the standard works to answer my questions, because one of my key concerns is that many leaders of the Church haven't "applied their hearts to understanding", and are instead wresting the scriptures in order to accomplish purposes that have less to do with God's will, and more to do with fulfilling their well-intentioned but prideful goals, covering their sins, pursuing their vain ambitions, etc.

Perhaps we could start our scripture study together with a deep dive into the story you shared with me today about Moses and Jethro. It's such a beautiful story, with so many divine principles contained therein, and I'd love to take a closer look at what it might be teaching us, in an environment where we can both contribute our thoughts, share our opinions openly, use the God given gifts of logic and reason that are so critical to our progression, and then pray with one another for God to open our eyes and pour out knowledge upon our heads. What do you think?

Although we didn't speak specifically about the requests I made in my last email to you, I felt like you were pretty clearly telling me that none of my requests are seriously being considered. I want to reaffirm to you that I haven't withdrawn any of those requests. I feel that counseling with the priesthood leaders of this Stake on the issues I have raised is a critical duty we as priesthood leaders in the Franklin Stake have. That being said, you are the presiding authority, and I will accept whatever decisions you make in this regard.

Finally, I simply want to address a couple things you said in an effort to calm your mind regarding my intentions and future behavior. I am extremely grateful that you were open and honest with me regarding your concerns for my welfare. It felt really good to hear you express your concern for me, share your beliefs about where this is all headed, and invite me to consider some things I could do to avert the outcome you believe is inevitable, based on your study and lived experiences.

I want you to know I have no intention of EVER forming another church. Indeed, I am willing to promise you here and now, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that that will NEVER happen. To help you understand why I can make that promise I am willing, in a spirit of sharing and trust, to tell you the following:

1) I KNOW I will never be forming another church because my standard works teach me that such an action isn't necessary. In addition to this, over the years I've watched so many well-intentioned but misled members follow this path, and seen the trail of heartache that follows for everyone involved. Finally, the Lord has explicitly told me that I am to remain a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, both in my patriarchal blessing, and through personal revelation. There are some more things I'd like to share with you in this regard from my patriarchal blessing, but would rather not do it through this medium of communication. Perhaps one of our "scripture studies" can be a review of my patriarchal blessing since we're taught that we are to regard those blessings as our own personal scripture....
2) Even if it were necessary, I do not possess the gifts, talents, or skills necessary to perform such a work. This reminds me of every five or six years when a new bishop is being called, and people come up to me to say things like, "oh, you'll DEFINITELY be the next Bishop..." to which I always respond "I am far closer to leaving the Church than I am to leading a ward, but thank you for your kind words and expression of confidence in my abilities!". To make it clear, I have no desire to lead ANYBODY, either in this church, or in any other capacity - except for my family, where I have been commanded by God to preside, provide, and protect, which requires me to step up as a leader despite my reticence to do so.

I also appreciate your honest assessment of the situation regarding your concerns about me potentially apostatizing. Since we are trying to build a relationship of trust I'd like to reciprocate by being completely honest with you: my personal feeling is that the leaders of this church have already apostatized in many regards on many important doctrinal points, and due to their influence, are either willingly or mistakenly causing many to commit grievous sin in the eyes of the Lord. So - I guess this means you and I have a legitimate dispute that needs to be addressed. On one hand you believe I have set my feet on the road to apostasy, and on the other, I am claiming that those who I have been trying to communicate with have set THEIR feet on the road to apostasy. The only way I know to resolve these types of disputes in the way our Master has commanded us to is to go between them and I and try to resolve them. However, it seems this door is closed to me, and so in a spirit of compromise, I am willing to work over the next six months with you in an attempt to establish the facts, work through the disputes through prayer and study, and seek to draw closer to a shared understanding regarding these critical matters - for, truthfully, it doesn't matter WHO is on the road to apostasy in the sense that whether you're "right" or I'm "right" there are disasters that can potentially be avoided, and souls to be saved, it sounds like. I'm so grateful to belong to a church that teaches that all souls are equally valuable, and that God is no respecter of persons. How comforting it is to know that we exist in a community that understands that we are to do everything in our power to aid each other in our journeys by following the Savior's example and doing everything in our power to resolve our disputes by modeling those behaviors outlined in Doctrine & Covenants 121:41-42 where we are taught:

No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile

I love you, <redacted>, and I love our General Authorities. Thank you for being willing to work through these serious issues with me. You are truly walking the walk and showing the Stake that we can, indeed, do hard things, just as you have taught us over the pulpit during your ministry as the leader of our little corner of the vineyard.

Have a blessed Sabbath, and we'll talk to you again soon!

Justin

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BeNotDeceived
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Post by BeNotDeceived »


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tmac
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Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by tmac »

Bless you EQ. There is no question that many Brethenites and TBMs will blame discussion groups and boards like LDSFF for spreading “the contagion,” which is something they would like to be able to control, as they sincerely admonish us to “doubt our doubts.” Hang in there.

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BuriedTartaria
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Posts: 1904

Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by BuriedTartaria »

You'll be missed! Thanks for your enthusiastic spirit and captivating detective work!

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BeNotDeceived
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Post by BeNotDeceived »

Valo wrote: February 26th, 2023, 6:50 am
:P :D ;)

...

Rubicon
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Posts: 1103

Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by Rubicon »

I hope you are able to sort things out, and I hope that that takes the form of stopping kicking against the pricks, but your posting record leads me to think that you will violate this hiatus in short order. You seem to be pretty manic and bi-polar when it comes to these pronouncements (e.g., your self-imposed 5 posts-a-day limit, which you jettisoned within like a day). Then, you manically get energized and go on long post binges. I will be very surprised if you are able to resist these posting binges and really do go radio silent for six months. I think you can't resist showing how "smart" you are in digging up obscure "smoking guns" and making "connections," a la strings connecting random magazine cut outs in "A Beautiful Mind."

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BeNotDeceived
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Post by BeNotDeceived »

Rubicon wrote: February 26th, 2023, 7:44 am I hope you are able to sort things out, and I hope that that takes the form of stopping kicking against the pricks, but your posting record leads me to think that you will violate this hiatus in short order. You seem to be pretty manic and bi-polar when it comes to these pronouncements (e.g., your self-imposed 5 posts-a-day limit, which you jettisoned within like a day). Then, you manically get energized and go on long post binges. I will be very surprised if you are able to resist these posting binges and really do go radio silent for six months. I think you can't resist showing how "smart" you are in digging up obscure "smoking guns" and making "connections," a la strings connecting random magazine cut outs in "A Beautiful Mind."
How exactly did that go in relation to the devastating earthquake on February 5th. :?:

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tmac
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Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by tmac »

Rubicon wrote: February 26th, 2023, 7:44 am I hope you are able to sort things out, and I hope that that takes the form of stopping kicking against the pricks, but your posting record leads me to think that you will violate this hiatus in short order. You seem to be pretty manic and bi-polar when it comes to these pronouncements (e.g., your self-imposed 5 posts-a-day limit, which you jettisoned within like a day). Then, you manically get energized and go on long post binges. I will be very surprised if you are able to resist these posting binges and really do go radio silent for six months. I think you can't resist showing how "smart" you are in digging up obscure "smoking guns" and making "connections," a la strings connecting random magazine cut outs in "A Beautiful Mind."
And, always remember, personal opinions are like assholes, everybody’s got one, and they all stink. But some can’t separate the two, and insist on being/becoming the stench, and delivering it via personal assault. Is it really necessary?

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The Red Pill
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Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by The Red Pill »

I genuinely wish you the best in your quest for truth.

My observation is that you are very conflicted. One minute you are rightfully calling the church leaders out for their behavior and apostasy. Correctly pointing out the harm they are doing and the people they are leading astray by their word and deed.

In another breath, you are saying you love the general authorities. You are willing to take a hiatus from LDSFF, but not the influence of your well intentioned...but not awake local leaders.

May I suggest an approach of balance. Keep your commitment to meet regularly with your local leader, but continue a scaled back presence on LDSFF.

Allow plenty of time for just thought and reflection.

I have been given so much by the people on this forum. So many nuggets of truth and perspective.

I am also in conflict. It is hard to see behind the curtain of an organization that has shaped your life for decades.

The Netflix series "Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey" about the fundamentalists really made me think. For me Polygamy was secondary to the blind obedience of the people, INSPITE of the obvious guilt of the leadership. I remember saying to myself numerous times...what is wrong with these people...why can't they see it?

Then It hit me hard...we are no different. In fact they broke off from US, to keep the Brighamite way going. They ARE the LDS Church as it was under Brigham.

It was easy to see in "another" organization...but not the one I belong to...I think we are all guilty of that.

I think you get where I am going. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...on EITHER side.

I honestly believe a solution will come into focus. God and Christ are aware of our dilemma. Our (speaking collectively of truth seekers) commitment to truth will be worth the effort. Outside of light and truth...what else is there??

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Chip
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Posts: 7909
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Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by Chip »

I think all stake leaders are strapped in and their job is to assure everyone that The Product is fine. Nobody at that level has any control over The Product. If someone doesn't like The Product, there's nothing anyone can do to change it. The Product is extruded at high pressure from a giant black box. The only prescribed solution to Product Hesitancy is for everyone to praise The Product and encourage ongoing consumption of The Product. All there is, at any moment, is The Product in its current formulation. Documentation regarding The Product may have no bearing on The Product, as it is wholly defined by the current extrusion emanating at high pressure from the black box. Our only real choice is whether we consume The Product, or not. Within the domain of The Company, there is only The Product.

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ransomme
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Posts: 4013

Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by ransomme »

endlessQuestions wrote: February 26th, 2023, 5:41 am I had a wonderful meeting with one of my local leaders yesterday while attending Stake Temple Day (my wife was attending the temple, and I was watching the kids and fellowshipping with many old and new friends from the stake in our Stake Center, which is right across the street from our temple).

Providentially, and opportunity arose to meet with one of my local leaders, and we were able to have what I consider to be a very productive meeting. I'm including here the message I sent him this morning, which I hope will help you understand what position the institutional Church has taken in regard to my requests, as well as my response. I've redacted the name and title of this local leader in an effort to protect their identity and respect their privacy.

###########BEGIN############

<redacted>,

Thank you for yesterday's impromptu conversation, and your humble response to <redacted>'s request to move away from the temple doors for a moment while she exited the building. I enjoyed the conversation very much, and feel like it was very productive on many levels. Plus, I ended up getting to minister to sister <redacted> there at the end, which was a blessing to both she and I - except it gave her an opportunity to remind me she wants me to sing on Easter. No good deed goes unpunished, I suppose. :)

To begin I'd like to tell you that I've prayed about what you counseled me to do and I will be "letting things settle". The date I've chosen to begin this exercise is April 7th.

As I mentioned, I'd like you to pray about what you and I can do during those six months to build a strong, solid relationship of trust since, as you mentioned and I confirmed, the relationship of trust between myself and the leadership of the Church is almost completely severed at this point in time. I'm grateful that even with these couple of interviews we've been able to do in the past couple of weeks, my overall trust in you is already growing. As I prayed about it, here's what I felt inspired to ask of you in regards to these next six months:

I would love to set up a recurring appointment with you at whatever interval your schedule allows where we can sit together for an hour or two and study the scriptures together. I appreciate your willingness to use the standard works to answer my questions, because one of my key concerns is that many leaders of the Church haven't "applied their hearts to understanding", and are instead wresting the scriptures in order to accomplish purposes that have less to do with God's will, and more to do with fulfilling their well-intentioned but prideful goals, covering their sins, pursuing their vain ambitions, etc.

Perhaps we could start our scripture study together with a deep dive into the story you shared with me today about Moses and Jethro. It's such a beautiful story, with so many divine principles contained therein, and I'd love to take a closer look at what it might be teaching us, in an environment where we can both contribute our thoughts, share our opinions openly, use the God given gifts of logic and reason that are so critical to our progression, and then pray with one another for God to open our eyes and pour out knowledge upon our heads. What do you think?

Although we didn't speak specifically about the requests I made in my last email to you, I felt like you were pretty clearly telling me that none of my requests are seriously being considered. I want to reaffirm to you that I haven't withdrawn any of those requests. I feel that counseling with the priesthood leaders of this Stake on the issues I have raised is a critical duty we as priesthood leaders in the Franklin Stake have. That being said, you are the presiding authority, and I will accept whatever decisions you make in this regard.

Finally, I simply want to address a couple things you said in an effort to calm your mind regarding my intentions and future behavior. I am extremely grateful that you were open and honest with me regarding your concerns for my welfare. It felt really good to hear you express your concern for me, share your beliefs about where this is all headed, and invite me to consider some things I could do to avert the outcome you believe is inevitable, based on your study and lived experiences.

I want you to know I have no intention of EVER forming another church. Indeed, I am willing to promise you here and now, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that that will NEVER happen. To help you understand why I can make that promise I am willing, in a spirit of sharing and trust, to tell you the following:

1) I KNOW I will never be forming another church because my standard works teach me that such an action isn't necessary. In addition to this, over the years I've watched so many well-intentioned but misled members follow this path, and seen the trail of heartache that follows for everyone involved. Finally, the Lord has explicitly told me that I am to remain a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, both in my patriarchal blessing, and through personal revelation. There are some more things I'd like to share with you in this regard from my patriarchal blessing, but would rather not do it through this medium of communication. Perhaps one of our "scripture studies" can be a review of my patriarchal blessing since we're taught that we are to regard those blessings as our own personal scripture....
2) Even if it were necessary, I do not possess the gifts, talents, or skills necessary to perform such a work. This reminds me of every five or six years when a new bishop is being called, and people come up to me to say things like, "oh, you'll DEFINITELY be the next Bishop..." to which I always respond "I am far closer to leaving the Church than I am to leading a ward, but thank you for your kind words and expression of confidence in my abilities!". To make it clear, I have no desire to lead ANYBODY, either in this church, or in any other capacity - except for my family, where I have been commanded by God to preside, provide, and protect, which requires me to step up as a leader despite my reticence to do so.

I also appreciate your honest assessment of the situation regarding your concerns about me potentially apostatizing. Since we are trying to build a relationship of trust I'd like to reciprocate by being completely honest with you: my personal feeling is that the leaders of this church have already apostatized in many regards on many important doctrinal points, and due to their influence, are either willingly or mistakenly causing many to commit grievous sin in the eyes of the Lord. So - I guess this means you and I have a legitimate dispute that needs to be addressed. On one hand you believe I have set my feet on the road to apostasy, and on the other, I am claiming that those who I have been trying to communicate with have set THEIR feet on the road to apostasy. The only way I know to resolve these types of disputes in the way our Master has commanded us to is to go between them and I and try to resolve them. However, it seems this door is closed to me, and so in a spirit of compromise, I am willing to work over the next six months with you in an attempt to establish the facts, work through the disputes through prayer and study, and seek to draw closer to a shared understanding regarding these critical matters - for, truthfully, it doesn't matter WHO is on the road to apostasy in the sense that whether you're "right" or I'm "right" there are disasters that can potentially be avoided, and souls to be saved, it sounds like. I'm so grateful to belong to a church that teaches that all souls are equally valuable, and that God is no respecter of persons. How comforting it is to know that we exist in a community that understands that we are to do everything in our power to aid each other in our journeys by following the Savior's example and doing everything in our power to resolve our disputes by modeling those behaviors outlined in Doctrine & Covenants 121:41-42 where we are taught:

No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile

I love you, <redacted>, and I love our General Authorities. Thank you for being willing to work through these serious issues with me. You are truly walking the walk and showing the Stake that we can, indeed, do hard things, just as you have taught us over the pulpit during your ministry as the leader of our little corner of the vineyard.

Have a blessed Sabbath, and we'll talk to you again soon!

Justin
Honestly, best of luck in your corner of the vineyard. I very much appreciate the fruits of the efforts that you have shared here. They have filled in many blanks, but over have been positive to me and my family.

When at Church I paint within their desired lines, but I stay rooted in my search for truth and have used the understanding that I have gained to help others. So many times after I tackle some subject, people will out of the blue mention their struggles with the exact thing to me! This gives me the opportunity to serve.

Again, Good Luck and see you when you get back.

Although don't leave before finishing that stuff on GBH!

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

All,

I appreciate EVERYONE's responses and will be back later to respond to each one individually.

In the meantime, I am performing, of all things, an audit on a ward today, so need to make sure I magnify my calling to the best of my ability.

While I am gone, please do your best to not allow contention to creep into this thread. There's no need for it. Everybody has the right to express their opinions as long as they stay within the rules of the forum.

If you find yourself regretting something you've said, just repent. I've seen it happen on this board a thousand times, and the people around here are amazingly good at apologizing, accepting apologies, and moving forward. It's one of the reasons I love this forum so much!

God bless y'all, and have a blessed Sabbath (for those of you who still believe the Sabbath is on Sunday).

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

Tender mercies are a thing:

After typing my last message, I looked up and saw a handmade sign posted on the wall of the clerk's office.

It says:

Be Yourself.
Everyone else is already taken.

God is good.

All is well.

Carry on.

simpleton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3074

Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by simpleton »

endlessQuestions wrote: February 26th, 2023, 5:41 am I had a wonderful meeting with one of my local leaders yesterday while attending Stake Temple Day (my wife was attending the temple, and I was watching the kids and fellowshipping with many old and new friends from the stake in our Stake Center, which is right across the street from our temple).

Providentially, and opportunity arose to meet with one of my local leaders, and we were able to have what I consider to be a very productive meeting. I'm including here the message I sent him this morning, which I hope will help you understand what position the institutional Church has taken in regard to my requests, as well as my response. I've redacted the name and title of this local leader in an effort to protect their identity and respect their privacy.

###########BEGIN############

<redacted>,

Thank you for yesterday's impromptu conversation, and your humble response to <redacted>'s request to move away from the temple doors for a moment while she exited the building. I enjoyed the conversation very much, and feel like it was very productive on many levels. Plus, I ended up getting to minister to sister <redacted> there at the end, which was a blessing to both she and I - except it gave her an opportunity to remind me she wants me to sing on Easter. No good deed goes unpunished, I suppose. :)

To begin I'd like to tell you that I've prayed about what you counseled me to do and I will be "letting things settle". The date I've chosen to begin this exercise is April 7th.

As I mentioned, I'd like you to pray about what you and I can do during those six months to build a strong, solid relationship of trust since, as you mentioned and I confirmed, the relationship of trust between myself and the leadership of the Church is almost completely severed at this point in time. I'm grateful that even with these couple of interviews we've been able to do in the past couple of weeks, my overall trust in you is already growing. As I prayed about it, here's what I felt inspired to ask of you in regards to these next six months:

I would love to set up a recurring appointment with you at whatever interval your schedule allows where we can sit together for an hour or two and study the scriptures together. I appreciate your willingness to use the standard works to answer my questions, because one of my key concerns is that many leaders of the Church haven't "applied their hearts to understanding", and are instead wresting the scriptures in order to accomplish purposes that have less to do with God's will, and more to do with fulfilling their well-intentioned but prideful goals, covering their sins, pursuing their vain ambitions, etc.

Perhaps we could start our scripture study together with a deep dive into the story you shared with me today about Moses and Jethro. It's such a beautiful story, with so many divine principles contained therein, and I'd love to take a closer look at what it might be teaching us, in an environment where we can both contribute our thoughts, share our opinions openly, use the God given gifts of logic and reason that are so critical to our progression, and then pray with one another for God to open our eyes and pour out knowledge upon our heads. What do you think?

Although we didn't speak specifically about the requests I made in my last email to you, I felt like you were pretty clearly telling me that none of my requests are seriously being considered. I want to reaffirm to you that I haven't withdrawn any of those requests. I feel that counseling with the priesthood leaders of this Stake on the issues I have raised is a critical duty we as priesthood leaders in the Franklin Stake have. That being said, you are the presiding authority, and I will accept whatever decisions you make in this regard.

Finally, I simply want to address a couple things you said in an effort to calm your mind regarding my intentions and future behavior. I am extremely grateful that you were open and honest with me regarding your concerns for my welfare. It felt really good to hear you express your concern for me, share your beliefs about where this is all headed, and invite me to consider some things I could do to avert the outcome you believe is inevitable, based on your study and lived experiences.

I want you to know I have no intention of EVER forming another church. Indeed, I am willing to promise you here and now, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that that will NEVER happen. To help you understand why I can make that promise I am willing, in a spirit of sharing and trust, to tell you the following:

1) I KNOW I will never be forming another church because my standard works teach me that such an action isn't necessary. In addition to this, over the years I've watched so many well-intentioned but misled members follow this path, and seen the trail of heartache that follows for everyone involved. Finally, the Lord has explicitly told me that I am to remain a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, both in my patriarchal blessing, and through personal revelation. There are some more things I'd like to share with you in this regard from my patriarchal blessing, but would rather not do it through this medium of communication. Perhaps one of our "scripture studies" can be a review of my patriarchal blessing since we're taught that we are to regard those blessings as our own personal scripture....
2) Even if it were necessary, I do not possess the gifts, talents, or skills necessary to perform such a work. This reminds me of every five or six years when a new bishop is being called, and people come up to me to say things like, "oh, you'll DEFINITELY be the next Bishop..." to which I always respond "I am far closer to leaving the Church than I am to leading a ward, but thank you for your kind words and expression of confidence in my abilities!". To make it clear, I have no desire to lead ANYBODY, either in this church, or in any other capacity - except for my family, where I have been commanded by God to preside, provide, and protect, which requires me to step up as a leader despite my reticence to do so.

I also appreciate your honest assessment of the situation regarding your concerns about me potentially apostatizing. Since we are trying to build a relationship of trust I'd like to reciprocate by being completely honest with you: my personal feeling is that the leaders of this church have already apostatized in many regards on many important doctrinal points, and due to their influence, are either willingly or mistakenly causing many to commit grievous sin in the eyes of the Lord. So - I guess this means you and I have a legitimate dispute that needs to be addressed. On one hand you believe I have set my feet on the road to apostasy, and on the other, I am claiming that those who I have been trying to communicate with have set THEIR feet on the road to apostasy. The only way I know to resolve these types of disputes in the way our Master has commanded us to is to go between them and I and try to resolve them. However, it seems this door is closed to me, and so in a spirit of compromise, I am willing to work over the next six months with you in an attempt to establish the facts, work through the disputes through prayer and study, and seek to draw closer to a shared understanding regarding these critical matters - for, truthfully, it doesn't matter WHO is on the road to apostasy in the sense that whether you're "right" or I'm "right" there are disasters that can potentially be avoided, and souls to be saved, it sounds like. I'm so grateful to belong to a church that teaches that all souls are equally valuable, and that God is no respecter of persons. How comforting it is to know that we exist in a community that understands that we are to do everything in our power to aid each other in our journeys by following the Savior's example and doing everything in our power to resolve our disputes by modeling those behaviors outlined in Doctrine & Covenants 121:41-42 where we are taught:

No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile

I love you, <redacted>, and I love our General Authorities. Thank you for being willing to work through these serious issues with me. You are truly walking the walk and showing the Stake that we can, indeed, do hard things, just as you have taught us over the pulpit during your ministry as the leader of our little corner of the vineyard.

Have a blessed Sabbath, and we'll talk to you again soon!

Justin
One of two things is going to happen, you maybe convincing him your right and he eventually gets the boot, or you get the boot, well, unless you repent.
But there is no way he comes around to your way of thinking and he keeps his position.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

See you next week. :)

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Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

The Red Pill wrote: February 26th, 2023, 8:47 am I genuinely wish you the best in your quest for truth.

My observation is that you are very conflicted. One minute you are rightfully calling the church leaders out for their behavior and apostasy. Correctly pointing out the harm they are doing and the people they are leading astray by their word and deed.

In another breath, you are saying you love the general authorities. You are willing to take a hiatus from LDSFF, but not the influence of your well intentioned...but not awake local leaders.

May I suggest an approach of balance. Keep your commitment to meet regularly with your local leader, but continue a scaled back presence on LDSFF.

Allow plenty of time for just thought and reflection.

I have been given so much by the people on this forum. So many nuggets of truth and perspective.

I am also in conflict. It is hard to see behind the curtain of an organization that has shaped your life for decades.

The Netflix series "Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey" about the fundamentalists really made me think. For me Polygamy was secondary to the blind obedience of the people, INSPITE of the obvious guilt of the leadership. I remember saying to myself numerous times...what is wrong with these people...why can't they see it?

Then It hit me hard...we are no different. In fact they broke off from US, to keep the Brighamite way going. They ARE the LDS Church as it was under Brigham.

It was easy to see in "another" organization...but not the one I belong to...I think we are all guilty of that.

I think you get where I am going. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...on EITHER side.

I honestly believe a solution will come into focus. God and Christ are aware of our dilemma. Our (speaking collectively of truth seekers) commitment to truth will be worth the effort. Outside of light and truth...what else is there??
I’m learning that balance is important. Sure, there are times to hit the metal when it’s hot, but this “in/out” “hot/cold” “damnation/praise” leads to some severe whiplash.

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Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Chip wrote: February 26th, 2023, 9:09 am I think all stake leaders are strapped in and their job is to assure everyone that The Product is fine. Nobody at that level has any control over The Product. If someone doesn't like The Product, there's nothing anyone can do to change it. The Product is extruded at high pressure from a giant black box. The only prescribed solution to Product Hesitancy is for everyone to praise The Product and encourage ongoing consumption of The Product. All there is, at any moment, is The Product in its current formulation. Documentation regarding The Product may have no bearing on The Product, as it is wholly defined by the current extrusion emanating at high pressure from the black box. Our only real choice is whether we consume The Product, or not. Within the domain of The Company, there is only The Product.
It’s beyond ironic that a huge emphasis in a church court is to “defend the good name of the church.” Because the church can never be wrong.

To the OP… now I want to go start my own church. :)

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Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by BeNotDeceived »

endlessQuestions wrote: February 26th, 2023, 9:34 am
Tender mercies are a thing:
Re: Weird dream about needing to dial the area code was one instance where almost immediately shocking stuff happened.
David A. Bednar wrote:... Often, the Lord’s timing of His tender mercies helps us to both discern and acknowledge them. ... and it is often the Lord’s timing that enables us to recognize and treasure these important blessings. ... and, frequently, the Lord’s timing helps us to recognize them. ...
There timing is mentioned three times …

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Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by ransomme »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 26th, 2023, 9:43 am
Chip wrote: February 26th, 2023, 9:09 am I think all stake leaders are strapped in and their job is to assure everyone that The Product is fine. Nobody at that level has any control over The Product. If someone doesn't like The Product, there's nothing anyone can do to change it. The Product is extruded at high pressure from a giant black box. The only prescribed solution to Product Hesitancy is for everyone to praise The Product and encourage ongoing consumption of The Product. All there is, at any moment, is The Product in its current formulation. Documentation regarding The Product may have no bearing on The Product, as it is wholly defined by the current extrusion emanating at high pressure from the black box. Our only real choice is whether we consume The Product, or not. Within the domain of The Company, there is only The Product.
It’s beyond ironic that a huge emphasis in a church court is to “defend the good name of the church.” Because the church can never be wrong.

To the OP… now I want to go start my own church. :)
I wouldn't start my own church, but my own community is something else.

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ransomme
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Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by ransomme »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 26th, 2023, 9:37 am See you next week. :)
Well he has until April 7th, so next week is assured :twisted:

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Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by HereWeGo »

The Red Pill wrote: February 26th, 2023, 8:47 am I genuinely wish you the best in your quest for truth.

My observation is that you are very conflicted. One minute you are rightfully calling the church leaders out for their behavior and apostasy. Correctly pointing out the harm they are doing and the people they are leading astray by their word and deed.

In another breath, you are saying you love the general authorities. You are willing to take a hiatus from LDSFF, but not the influence of your well intentioned...but not awake local leaders.

May I suggest an approach of balance. Keep your commitment to meet regularly with your local leader, but continue a scaled back presence on LDSFF.

Allow plenty of time for just thought and reflection.

I have been given so much by the people on this forum. So many nuggets of truth and perspective.

I am also in conflict. It is hard to see behind the curtain of an organization that has shaped your life for decades.

The Netflix series "Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey" about the fundamentalists really made me think. For me Polygamy was secondary to the blind obedience of the people, INSPITE of the obvious guilt of the leadership. I remember saying to myself numerous times...what is wrong with these people...why can't they see it?

Then It hit me hard...we are no different. In fact they broke off from US, to keep the Brighamite way going. They ARE the LDS Church as it was under Brigham.

It was easy to see in "another" organization...but not the one I belong to...I think we are all guilty of that.

I think you get where I am going. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...on EITHER side.

I honestly believe a solution will come into focus. God and Christ are aware of our dilemma. Our (speaking collectively of truth seekers) commitment to truth will be worth the effort. Outside of light and truth...what else is there??
Excellent advice.

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HereWeGo
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Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by HereWeGo »

Chip wrote: February 26th, 2023, 9:09 am I think all stake leaders are strapped in and their job is to assure everyone that The Product is fine. Nobody at that level has any control over The Product. If someone doesn't like The Product, there's nothing anyone can do to change it. The Product is extruded at high pressure from a giant black box. The only prescribed solution to Product Hesitancy is for everyone to praise The Product and encourage ongoing consumption of The Product. All there is, at any moment, is The Product in its current formulation. Documentation regarding The Product may have no bearing on The Product, as it is wholly defined by the current extrusion emanating at high pressure from the black box. Our only real choice is whether we consume The Product, or not. Within the domain of The Company, there is only The Product.
Great analogy.

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HereWeGo
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Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by HereWeGo »

EO, your letter didn't clarify if you were asked to avoid LDSFF or any online sites. Is this what happened?

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Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

ransomme wrote: February 26th, 2023, 9:53 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 26th, 2023, 9:43 am
Chip wrote: February 26th, 2023, 9:09 am I think all stake leaders are strapped in and their job is to assure everyone that The Product is fine. Nobody at that level has any control over The Product. If someone doesn't like The Product, there's nothing anyone can do to change it. The Product is extruded at high pressure from a giant black box. The only prescribed solution to Product Hesitancy is for everyone to praise The Product and encourage ongoing consumption of The Product. All there is, at any moment, is The Product in its current formulation. Documentation regarding The Product may have no bearing on The Product, as it is wholly defined by the current extrusion emanating at high pressure from the black box. Our only real choice is whether we consume The Product, or not. Within the domain of The Company, there is only The Product.
It’s beyond ironic that a huge emphasis in a church court is to “defend the good name of the church.” Because the church can never be wrong.

To the OP… now I want to go start my own church. :)
I wouldn't start my own church, but my own community is something else.
Community… church… both will need a base belief system.

All joking a side, I want to start my own sovereign nation. Skip the church. :)

Ok, maybe a little joking… kind of.

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Re: Why EndlessQuestions Needs to Take a Six Month Hiatus from LDSFF

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

ransomme wrote: February 26th, 2023, 9:55 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 26th, 2023, 9:37 am See you next week. :)
Well he has until April 7th, so next week is assured :twisted:
He’s gotta stay until BroJones prediction comes to fruition. So that puts him to April 31st. :)

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