"The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

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kirtland r.m.
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"The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

Post by kirtland r.m. »

Kirtland Ohio, 1833

"Brethren, I have been very much edified and instructed in your testimonies here tonight, but I want to say to you before the Lord, that you know no more concerning the destinies of this Church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother's lap. You don't comprehend it." I was rather surprised. He said, "It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight, but this Church will fill North and South America - it will fill the world." Among other things, he said, "It will fill the Rocky Mountains. There will be tens of thousands of Latter-day Saints who will be gathered in the Rocky Mountains, and there they will open the door for the establishing of the Gospel among the Lamanites, who will receive the Gospel and their endowments and the blessings of God. This people will go into the Rocky Mountains; they will there build temples to the Most High. They will raise up a posterity there, and the Latter-day Saints who dwell in these mountains will stand in the flesh until the coming of the Son of Man. The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains." Joseph Smith
Quoted by Wilford Woodruff, GC April 1898, p 57.

And yes, some early endowment information was given at Kirtland. The Kirtland Temple endowment ceremonies were patterned after Old Testament sacerdotal practices. They consisted of preparatory washings, administered in private homes, in which men washed and purified their bodies with water and alcohol Kirtland Elders' Quorum Record 1836-1841, 25 January 1836 . I have more on this from the School of the Prophets and other sources, but this is probably enough.

Parting thought, remember, Wilford Woodruff was a prolific Journal writer and wrote down a good portion of experiences in early church history. Wilford Woodruff began writing a daily journal shortly after joining the Church in 1833 and continued writing until his death in 1898. The resulting 31 volumes constitute one of the most significant records of the history of the Church.

blitzinstripes
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

Post by blitzinstripes »

Those statements attributed to JS, pertaining to the Rocky Mts are dubious at best. If JS truly believed that their destiny was in the Rockies, it doesn't make much sense to expend such effort toiling in Missouri and Nauvoo. Its also suspect that such statements never seem to have been known and familiar to saints at the time, they seem to suddenly materialize after the saints had already made their exodus under BY.

endlessQuestions
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

Post by endlessQuestions »

blitzinstripes wrote: February 25th, 2023, 5:20 am Those statements attributed to JS, pertaining to the Rocky Mts are dubious at best. If JS truly believed that their destiny was in the Rockies, it doesn't make much sense to expend such effort toiling in Missouri and Nauvoo. Its also suspect that such statements never seem to have been known and familiar to saints at the time, they seem to suddenly materialize after the saints had already made their exodus under BY.
Why are they dubious? What evidence can you present, other than your assertions, to those of us who want to take your claim seriously?

blitzinstripes
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

Post by blitzinstripes »

I don't have time to post the links right now. If I get time later today I will go back and search out the sources again. You could prob do a search query on past posts. It's been discussed here before, at length.

Trucker
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

Post by Trucker »

Conveniently quoted in 1898

blitzinstripes
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

Post by blitzinstripes »

endlessQuestions wrote: February 25th, 2023, 6:57 am
blitzinstripes wrote: February 25th, 2023, 5:20 am Those statements attributed to JS, pertaining to the Rocky Mts are dubious at best. If JS truly believed that their destiny was in the Rockies, it doesn't make much sense to expend such effort toiling in Missouri and Nauvoo. Its also suspect that such statements never seem to have been known and familiar to saints at the time, they seem to suddenly materialize after the saints had already made their exodus under BY.
Why are they dubious? What evidence can you present, other than your assertions, to those of us who want to take your claim seriously?
This is a lengthy response and it's admittedly from an "anti Mormon" website called Mormonism Research Ministry, but it came up in my search and it does a decent job of laying out the issue and challenging the LDS narrative by dating the sources of the 'original' quotes and examining the available documents.

Examining Joseph Smith’s "Rocky Mountain Prophecy"
[Speaking in General Conference on Sunday, October 5, 2008, Mormon Apostle M. Russell Ballard stated that on August of 1842, Joseph Smith prophesied “that the Saints would continue to suffer much affliction and would be driven to the Rocky Mountains,” and that some would live to “build cities and see the Saints become a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains.” Is this statement based on fact, or is this Mormon Apostle promoting Mormon folklore?]

By Lane Thuet

“I prophesied that the Saints would continue to suffer much affliction and would be driven to the Rocky Mountains, many would apostatize, others would be put to death by our persecutors or lose their lives in consequence of exposure or disease, and some of you will live to go and assist in making settlements and build cities and see the Saints become a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains.”

If the above statement, recorded in the Documentary History of the Church (DHC) 5:85 and dated August 1842, can be verified, then it would be impressive that Smith could predict this, for these events are exactly what befell the early Mormons. Salt Lake City has become a major U. S. city, and few would argue that the Mormon settlers have become a “mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains.”

Any honest researcher, whether LDS or not, would demand proof that this prophecy was authentic before accepting it as fact. That means there must be undeniable and unquestionable evidence that Joseph Smith uttered, recorded and/or published the prophecy prior to the events it foretells having come to pass.

LDS writer Nephi Morris wrote a book in 1920 defending Joseph Smith’s fulfilled prophecies. He was most impressed with this one in particular. Yet he also wanted proof of its authenticity. While preparing his book, he visited the Church headquarters and requested to see the original manuscript. He writes, “We have not had access to the original record as kept by the Prophet, containing this remarkable prophecy. We have, however, irrefutable evidence which fixes the date of the prophecy some years before the Saints even started west” (Prophesies of Joseph Smith and their Fulfillment, p.139).

Why would the LDS Church leaders refuse to show Morris the evidence verifying such a remarkable prophecy, especially since Morris was trying to defend the Prophet? In their research, Jerald and Sandra Tanner discovered a likely reason why the request was denied. They write, “A photograph of the portion of the original handwritten manuscript containing this ‘prophecy’ has been located at the Visitor Center in Nauvoo, Illinois…. Now that we have a photograph of the page containing this ‘prophecy,’ we can see why it was suppressed for all these years.” The reason, they explain, is that “the part concerning the Mormons becoming ‘a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains’ has been crammed in at the bottom in a smaller handwriting. This would seem to indicate that it was added sometime after the page had originally been written” (Mormonism – Shadow or Reality, p.135).

On page 134 of Shadow, the Tanners provide a reprint of the actual manuscript page, and it is obvious that the information was added—squeezed between the lines amid the dates of Thursday 4 August, Friday 5 August, and Saturday 6 August. The entire portion given as “prophecy” by Joseph Smith is part of this added information.

The handwriting on the page, the Tanners believe, appears to be that of Thomas Bullock, the recorder of the original information on the page. But exactly when he added the extra material cannot be definitely determined. Bullock, as the Tanners point out, worked in the historian’s office in Salt Lake City while this portion of the History of the Church was being worked on in 1854.

The Tanners note that LDS historian Dean C. Jessee researched the History of the Church in detail and showed that the page containing this prophecy had not even been originally written until July of 1845 (“The Writings of Joseph Smith’s History,” BYU Studies, Summer 1971, pp. 456-458, 468-70). Smith died in June 1844. This means the entry itself in the History cannot be accepted as definite proof that Smith made the prediction.

But was the prophecy added to the manuscript before or after the Saints moved to Utah? We cannot know for sure. The possibility remains that the material could have been added to the page after the Church had already settled in the Great Salt Lake Valley. In order to prove the prophecy authentic, we must look to other datable sources.

Morris writes, “The earliest printed publication of this prophecy, known to the writer, is to be found in the Deseret News, in 1852” (Prophecies of Joseph Smith, p.139). Though Morris claims it was printed in 1852, the photograph of the prophecy from that paper which he includes in his book was from the 7 November 1855 issue—more than eight years after the Mormons had already settled in the Salt Lake Valley (see page 132 and footnote.) Morris’ date was in error. According to Jessee, the LDS history books had been packed up in Nauvoo, Illinois, on 4 February 1846 and were not unpacked in Salt Lake City until 7 June 1853. The work on compiling and finalizing the History did not begin in earnest until 10 April 1854 under the direction of the new church historian George A. Smith (The Writing of Joseph Smith History, pp 469-470). The prophecy was printed for the first time in the 7 November 1855 issue of the Deseret News (p.273).

Thomas B. H. Stenhouse, once a faithful Mormon, later wrote an expose called the Rocky Mountain Saints. On page 146 he wrote, “As early as 1842, he [Smith] prophesied that the Saints would remove to the Rocky Mountains, and in the spring of 1844, while troubles were increasing upon him, he selected a company of men to explore that unknown region, prophesying at the same time that within five years from that date, the Saints should be located there beyond the influence of mobs.” Stenhouse accepts one of Smith’s diary entries as proof in this case. Yet the entry cited does not mention the Rocky Mountains. Instead, it records that Smith sent out men to scout throughout “the localities, California and Oregon” to find a suitable settling place.

Mormon historian Davis Bitton sums this matter up well, stating, “There is no such prophecy in the handwriting of Joseph Smith, or published during the prophet’s lifetime, but it was referred to in general terms during the trek west. After the arrival in the Salt Lake Valley the prophecy became more specific as time went on” (Changing World of Mormonism, p.406, emphasis mine).” The only definite conclusion that can be reached is that this prophecy cannot be shown to be authentic.

Morris suggests that several people had early knowledge of this prophecy. He cites, among other things, an entry from the journal of Heber C. Kimball on 31 December 1845 concerning the move of the Saints to the west (Prophecies of Joseph Smith, p.137). Examination of that journal entry, however, shows that Kimball did not know where the Saints would settle. According to the journal entry, Brigham Young was “examining maps with reference to selecting a location for the Saints west of the Rocky Mountains….” This indicates no knowledge of Smith’s prediction.

The Tanners note that Brigham Young had written a letter just 13 days before this journal entry, which definitely indicated that he was planning to have the Saints migrate to Canada “on Vancouver’s Island” (Shadow or Reality, p.135). That is well outside the “midst of the Rocky Mountains.” J. H. Beadle informs us that “at a conference held before they left Nauvoo, to determine their destination, Lyman Wight had strongly urged Texas, John Taylor proposed Vancouver’s Island, many were in favor of Oregon and Brigham Young insisted upon California”(Polygamy, or the Mysteries and Crimes of Mormonism, p.118, emphasis mine). Beadle goes on to say that “they finally fixed indefinitely upon ‘some valley in the Rocky Mountains.'”

But in a circular letter to the Church printed in October of 1845, Brigham Young stated that the leadership intended to move the Church to a “far distant region of the west.” He closed the circular by stating, “There are said to be many good locations for settlements on the Pacific, especially at Vancouver’s Island, near the mouth of the Columbia” (available on-line at: http://library.byu.edu/). The aforementioned BYU web page also notes, “It is apparent that in the fall of 1845 their final destination was the Pacific coast not the Great Basin. It would not be until late January 1846 before the decision was made to settle ‘in the neighborhood of the Rocky Mountains.'” As we shall see, the date of January 1846 is also questionable.

The same day the Saints left Nauvoo for the west, 238 additional Church members departed from New York on the ship Brooklyn to sail around Cape Horn for the Pacific Coast of California. Led by Samuel Brannan, the plan was to meet Brigham Young near present-day San Francisco. Around this time several Mormon men were enlisted in the Mormon Battalion to fight for America in the Mexican War. This fits perfectly with plans held by Young at that time, since the Battalion was to be discharged in California. Mormon historians James B. Allen and Glen M. Leonard note that Brigham Young complied with the government’s request for 500 troops since their pay would “help transport their families west” and “help the Saints reach Upper California” (The Story of the Latter-day Saints, p.226).

In his book titled Brigham Young, M. R. Werner, writes on page 206, “Finally, in 1846 they began their trek to the West…. Just where in the West they were going, the Mormons did not know, but Oregon and California were in the mind of Brigham Young.”

Major Howard Egan was in the first company of Mormon pioneers to travel West with Brigham Young. In his diary it is noted that “the family moved with the general exodus of the Saints about the 1st of March, 1846… At that time there was no definite plan as to the future destination of the people. There had been vague ideas afloat of Oregon, Vancouver and Upper California as probable places of refuge.” The editor of Egan’s diary inserts that there were “undefined plans” from Joseph Smith of migrating to the midst of the Rocky Mountains, but this editorial comment was added when Pioneering the West: 1846 to 1878—Major Howard Egan’s Diary became a book in 1917, well after the Mormons were already settled in the Great Salt Lake Valley. The prophecy had been widely published by that point.

A hymn written by John Taylor also gives the impression that the Mormons were headed for the northern Pacific Coast. The Mormons sang it often on their journey across the plains and Rocky Mountains:

The Upper California, Oh that’s the land for me!

It lies between the mountains and the great Pacific Sea;

The Saints can be supported there,

And taste the sweets of liberty.

In the Upper California, that’s the land for me!

In an article titled “Correct Placing of the Monument, Pioneer View” (Improvement Era, 1921), Elder W.W. Riter, a man who had traveled with Brigham Young to the Salt Lake Valley, stated, “You will remember that when our people started from Nauvoo they only followed the setting sun. They did not know where they were going. There was an indefinite idea that they were going to California; for you may remember that in some of the old editions of our hymn book there is a hymn: ‘In Upper California—Oh, that’s the land for me!'” While it can be argued that “Upper California” at that time also included the area known today as Utah, it is difficult to prove that this particular area was in mind when Taylor penned the words to this hymn.

While many Mormons had already left Nauvoo on their way to the west, other leaders of the Church had been discharged to England. An idea of where the main body of the Church would be going was sent along with them. Oliver B. Huntington, one of the missionaries who went to England, recorded in his journal on 16 October 1846 that a council meeting was appointed and that “it was the intention of the Twelve, here, or the authorities of the Church in England to petition the [English] government, to cede to us as her subjects a part or the whole of the Island of Vancouver, on the western coast of America; and also ship us there. This was given as the intended course to be taken by the Church” (Journal of Oliver B. Huntington 1:34).

The evidence tells us that Young had no firm intentions of settling in the Great Salt Lake Valley until after the Mormons had left Nauvoo. He even said as much in a sermon he gave in 1857: “When I was written to in Nauvoo by the President of the United States, through another person, enquiring, ‘Where are you going, Mr. Young?’ I replied that I did not know where we should land. We had men in England trying to negotiate for Vancouver’s Island, and we sent a shipload of Saints round Cape Horn to California” (Journal of Discourses 5:230-231).

Given the fact that Young had a propensity to do all he could to validate Smith’s role as a prophet, his indecisiveness tends to prove that he was not privy to an alleged prophecy to settle in the middle of the Rocky Mountains. Had he known, he would have followed the revelation to the letter. All this tends to disprove the notion that Young had made up his mind in January of 1846.

As the Saints journeyed west, Young contracted Mountain fever, a sickness that is accompanied by fever, chills, and aching muscles. It was while he was in this condition that his wagon train reached the Great Salt Lake Valley. Upon seeing it, Young decided that this was where they would stop. In a speech commemorating their arrival to the valley, Wilford Woodruff made the following comment: “Forty-one years ago this day I passed through Immigration Canyon with President Brigham Young. He was taken sick on East Canyon Creek, and I made a bed for him in my carriage. When we came upon the bench, where we had a fair view of the valley before us, I turned the side of the vehicle to the west, so that he could obtain a fair view of the valley. President Young arose from his bed and took a survey of the country before him for several minutes. He then said to me, “Drive on down into the valley; this is our abiding place. I have seen it before in vision. In this valley will be built the City of the Saints and the Temple of our God.” (Collected Discourses 1:163-164).

It could very well have been his illness that decided the matter for him. It is quite possible that he would not have wanted to continue the difficult and uncomfortable journey in that condition. By his own account, Young was unable to even get out of the carriage and view the Great Salt Lake Valley when they arrived. When exactly Young made the decision to settle in Utah may never be known. One thing is certain: there is no concrete evidence to suggest that Joseph Smith predicted that the Saints would settle in what is known today as the Salt Lake Valley.

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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

In addition to being known for his journal writing, WW was also know to exaggerate greatly.

blitzinstripes
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

Post by blitzinstripes »

I'm not saying that JS couldn't have made such a prophecy. The issue is that we can't find written evidence of it first hand and in his handwriting. So just as with all other alleged historical revelations of that nature, we need to be careful that we don't throw too much confidence behind it. Claims such as this throw a lot of ammunition to the enemies of the church who will gladly and quite easily do the research and find the holes in it, and they will make sure that the public knows it as well. Unfortunately ad time goes on, we find more and more example of this, and some are of significantly greater importance. Such as the origins of D&C 132. There is a significant LACK of evidence that 132 was written by Joseph or even that it originated from him at all. That presents a serious problem for doctrinal basis to support the polygamous period of church history and invites additional questioning into people and motives. That's a far greater issue than whether or not JS prophesied that the church would end up in the Rockies. I believe we need to err on sticking to what we KNOW originated from JS and put a lot less weight in second, third, fourth hand accounts of things that really cannot be considered as trusted sources. Unfortunately, church history is full of this stuff. So and so claimed that Joseph taught them some strange doctrine about men on the moon, lost tribes on the North Star, the city of Enoch used to be in the Gulf of Mexico, even polygamy. Compare these claims against Joseph's known and verified statements on the matters.

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ransomme
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

Post by ransomme »

It's after the pattern done by different presidents, ahem... BY.

endlessQuestions
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

Post by endlessQuestions »

blitzinstripes wrote: February 25th, 2023, 10:12 am
endlessQuestions wrote: February 25th, 2023, 6:57 am
blitzinstripes wrote: February 25th, 2023, 5:20 am Those statements attributed to JS, pertaining to the Rocky Mts are dubious at best. If JS truly believed that their destiny was in the Rockies, it doesn't make much sense to expend such effort toiling in Missouri and Nauvoo. Its also suspect that such statements never seem to have been known and familiar to saints at the time, they seem to suddenly materialize after the saints had already made their exodus under BY.
Why are they dubious? What evidence can you present, other than your assertions, to those of us who want to take your claim seriously?
This is a lengthy response and it's admittedly from an "anti Mormon" website called Mormonism Research Ministry, but it came up in my search and it does a decent job of laying out the issue and challenging the LDS narrative by dating the sources of the 'original' quotes and examining the available documents.

Examining Joseph Smith’s "Rocky Mountain Prophecy"
[Speaking in General Conference on Sunday, October 5, 2008, Mormon Apostle M. Russell Ballard stated that on August of 1842, Joseph Smith prophesied “that the Saints would continue to suffer much affliction and would be driven to the Rocky Mountains,” and that some would live to “build cities and see the Saints become a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains.” Is this statement based on fact, or is this Mormon Apostle promoting Mormon folklore?]

By Lane Thuet

“I prophesied that the Saints would continue to suffer much affliction and would be driven to the Rocky Mountains, many would apostatize, others would be put to death by our persecutors or lose their lives in consequence of exposure or disease, and some of you will live to go and assist in making settlements and build cities and see the Saints become a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains.”

If the above statement, recorded in the Documentary History of the Church (DHC) 5:85 and dated August 1842, can be verified, then it would be impressive that Smith could predict this, for these events are exactly what befell the early Mormons. Salt Lake City has become a major U. S. city, and few would argue that the Mormon settlers have become a “mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains.”

Any honest researcher, whether LDS or not, would demand proof that this prophecy was authentic before accepting it as fact. That means there must be undeniable and unquestionable evidence that Joseph Smith uttered, recorded and/or published the prophecy prior to the events it foretells having come to pass.

LDS writer Nephi Morris wrote a book in 1920 defending Joseph Smith’s fulfilled prophecies. He was most impressed with this one in particular. Yet he also wanted proof of its authenticity. While preparing his book, he visited the Church headquarters and requested to see the original manuscript. He writes, “We have not had access to the original record as kept by the Prophet, containing this remarkable prophecy. We have, however, irrefutable evidence which fixes the date of the prophecy some years before the Saints even started west” (Prophesies of Joseph Smith and their Fulfillment, p.139).

Why would the LDS Church leaders refuse to show Morris the evidence verifying such a remarkable prophecy, especially since Morris was trying to defend the Prophet? In their research, Jerald and Sandra Tanner discovered a likely reason why the request was denied. They write, “A photograph of the portion of the original handwritten manuscript containing this ‘prophecy’ has been located at the Visitor Center in Nauvoo, Illinois…. Now that we have a photograph of the page containing this ‘prophecy,’ we can see why it was suppressed for all these years.” The reason, they explain, is that “the part concerning the Mormons becoming ‘a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains’ has been crammed in at the bottom in a smaller handwriting. This would seem to indicate that it was added sometime after the page had originally been written” (Mormonism – Shadow or Reality, p.135).

On page 134 of Shadow, the Tanners provide a reprint of the actual manuscript page, and it is obvious that the information was added—squeezed between the lines amid the dates of Thursday 4 August, Friday 5 August, and Saturday 6 August. The entire portion given as “prophecy” by Joseph Smith is part of this added information.

The handwriting on the page, the Tanners believe, appears to be that of Thomas Bullock, the recorder of the original information on the page. But exactly when he added the extra material cannot be definitely determined. Bullock, as the Tanners point out, worked in the historian’s office in Salt Lake City while this portion of the History of the Church was being worked on in 1854.

The Tanners note that LDS historian Dean C. Jessee researched the History of the Church in detail and showed that the page containing this prophecy had not even been originally written until July of 1845 (“The Writings of Joseph Smith’s History,” BYU Studies, Summer 1971, pp. 456-458, 468-70). Smith died in June 1844. This means the entry itself in the History cannot be accepted as definite proof that Smith made the prediction.

But was the prophecy added to the manuscript before or after the Saints moved to Utah? We cannot know for sure. The possibility remains that the material could have been added to the page after the Church had already settled in the Great Salt Lake Valley. In order to prove the prophecy authentic, we must look to other datable sources.

Morris writes, “The earliest printed publication of this prophecy, known to the writer, is to be found in the Deseret News, in 1852” (Prophecies of Joseph Smith, p.139). Though Morris claims it was printed in 1852, the photograph of the prophecy from that paper which he includes in his book was from the 7 November 1855 issue—more than eight years after the Mormons had already settled in the Salt Lake Valley (see page 132 and footnote.) Morris’ date was in error. According to Jessee, the LDS history books had been packed up in Nauvoo, Illinois, on 4 February 1846 and were not unpacked in Salt Lake City until 7 June 1853. The work on compiling and finalizing the History did not begin in earnest until 10 April 1854 under the direction of the new church historian George A. Smith (The Writing of Joseph Smith History, pp 469-470). The prophecy was printed for the first time in the 7 November 1855 issue of the Deseret News (p.273).

Thomas B. H. Stenhouse, once a faithful Mormon, later wrote an expose called the Rocky Mountain Saints. On page 146 he wrote, “As early as 1842, he [Smith] prophesied that the Saints would remove to the Rocky Mountains, and in the spring of 1844, while troubles were increasing upon him, he selected a company of men to explore that unknown region, prophesying at the same time that within five years from that date, the Saints should be located there beyond the influence of mobs.” Stenhouse accepts one of Smith’s diary entries as proof in this case. Yet the entry cited does not mention the Rocky Mountains. Instead, it records that Smith sent out men to scout throughout “the localities, California and Oregon” to find a suitable settling place.

Mormon historian Davis Bitton sums this matter up well, stating, “There is no such prophecy in the handwriting of Joseph Smith, or published during the prophet’s lifetime, but it was referred to in general terms during the trek west. After the arrival in the Salt Lake Valley the prophecy became more specific as time went on” (Changing World of Mormonism, p.406, emphasis mine).” The only definite conclusion that can be reached is that this prophecy cannot be shown to be authentic.

Morris suggests that several people had early knowledge of this prophecy. He cites, among other things, an entry from the journal of Heber C. Kimball on 31 December 1845 concerning the move of the Saints to the west (Prophecies of Joseph Smith, p.137). Examination of that journal entry, however, shows that Kimball did not know where the Saints would settle. According to the journal entry, Brigham Young was “examining maps with reference to selecting a location for the Saints west of the Rocky Mountains….” This indicates no knowledge of Smith’s prediction.

The Tanners note that Brigham Young had written a letter just 13 days before this journal entry, which definitely indicated that he was planning to have the Saints migrate to Canada “on Vancouver’s Island” (Shadow or Reality, p.135). That is well outside the “midst of the Rocky Mountains.” J. H. Beadle informs us that “at a conference held before they left Nauvoo, to determine their destination, Lyman Wight had strongly urged Texas, John Taylor proposed Vancouver’s Island, many were in favor of Oregon and Brigham Young insisted upon California”(Polygamy, or the Mysteries and Crimes of Mormonism, p.118, emphasis mine). Beadle goes on to say that “they finally fixed indefinitely upon ‘some valley in the Rocky Mountains.'”

But in a circular letter to the Church printed in October of 1845, Brigham Young stated that the leadership intended to move the Church to a “far distant region of the west.” He closed the circular by stating, “There are said to be many good locations for settlements on the Pacific, especially at Vancouver’s Island, near the mouth of the Columbia” (available on-line at: http://library.byu.edu/). The aforementioned BYU web page also notes, “It is apparent that in the fall of 1845 their final destination was the Pacific coast not the Great Basin. It would not be until late January 1846 before the decision was made to settle ‘in the neighborhood of the Rocky Mountains.'” As we shall see, the date of January 1846 is also questionable.

The same day the Saints left Nauvoo for the west, 238 additional Church members departed from New York on the ship Brooklyn to sail around Cape Horn for the Pacific Coast of California. Led by Samuel Brannan, the plan was to meet Brigham Young near present-day San Francisco. Around this time several Mormon men were enlisted in the Mormon Battalion to fight for America in the Mexican War. This fits perfectly with plans held by Young at that time, since the Battalion was to be discharged in California. Mormon historians James B. Allen and Glen M. Leonard note that Brigham Young complied with the government’s request for 500 troops since their pay would “help transport their families west” and “help the Saints reach Upper California” (The Story of the Latter-day Saints, p.226).

In his book titled Brigham Young, M. R. Werner, writes on page 206, “Finally, in 1846 they began their trek to the West…. Just where in the West they were going, the Mormons did not know, but Oregon and California were in the mind of Brigham Young.”

Major Howard Egan was in the first company of Mormon pioneers to travel West with Brigham Young. In his diary it is noted that “the family moved with the general exodus of the Saints about the 1st of March, 1846… At that time there was no definite plan as to the future destination of the people. There had been vague ideas afloat of Oregon, Vancouver and Upper California as probable places of refuge.” The editor of Egan’s diary inserts that there were “undefined plans” from Joseph Smith of migrating to the midst of the Rocky Mountains, but this editorial comment was added when Pioneering the West: 1846 to 1878—Major Howard Egan’s Diary became a book in 1917, well after the Mormons were already settled in the Great Salt Lake Valley. The prophecy had been widely published by that point.

A hymn written by John Taylor also gives the impression that the Mormons were headed for the northern Pacific Coast. The Mormons sang it often on their journey across the plains and Rocky Mountains:

The Upper California, Oh that’s the land for me!

It lies between the mountains and the great Pacific Sea;

The Saints can be supported there,

And taste the sweets of liberty.

In the Upper California, that’s the land for me!

In an article titled “Correct Placing of the Monument, Pioneer View” (Improvement Era, 1921), Elder W.W. Riter, a man who had traveled with Brigham Young to the Salt Lake Valley, stated, “You will remember that when our people started from Nauvoo they only followed the setting sun. They did not know where they were going. There was an indefinite idea that they were going to California; for you may remember that in some of the old editions of our hymn book there is a hymn: ‘In Upper California—Oh, that’s the land for me!'” While it can be argued that “Upper California” at that time also included the area known today as Utah, it is difficult to prove that this particular area was in mind when Taylor penned the words to this hymn.

While many Mormons had already left Nauvoo on their way to the west, other leaders of the Church had been discharged to England. An idea of where the main body of the Church would be going was sent along with them. Oliver B. Huntington, one of the missionaries who went to England, recorded in his journal on 16 October 1846 that a council meeting was appointed and that “it was the intention of the Twelve, here, or the authorities of the Church in England to petition the [English] government, to cede to us as her subjects a part or the whole of the Island of Vancouver, on the western coast of America; and also ship us there. This was given as the intended course to be taken by the Church” (Journal of Oliver B. Huntington 1:34).

The evidence tells us that Young had no firm intentions of settling in the Great Salt Lake Valley until after the Mormons had left Nauvoo. He even said as much in a sermon he gave in 1857: “When I was written to in Nauvoo by the President of the United States, through another person, enquiring, ‘Where are you going, Mr. Young?’ I replied that I did not know where we should land. We had men in England trying to negotiate for Vancouver’s Island, and we sent a shipload of Saints round Cape Horn to California” (Journal of Discourses 5:230-231).

Given the fact that Young had a propensity to do all he could to validate Smith’s role as a prophet, his indecisiveness tends to prove that he was not privy to an alleged prophecy to settle in the middle of the Rocky Mountains. Had he known, he would have followed the revelation to the letter. All this tends to disprove the notion that Young had made up his mind in January of 1846.

As the Saints journeyed west, Young contracted Mountain fever, a sickness that is accompanied by fever, chills, and aching muscles. It was while he was in this condition that his wagon train reached the Great Salt Lake Valley. Upon seeing it, Young decided that this was where they would stop. In a speech commemorating their arrival to the valley, Wilford Woodruff made the following comment: “Forty-one years ago this day I passed through Immigration Canyon with President Brigham Young. He was taken sick on East Canyon Creek, and I made a bed for him in my carriage. When we came upon the bench, where we had a fair view of the valley before us, I turned the side of the vehicle to the west, so that he could obtain a fair view of the valley. President Young arose from his bed and took a survey of the country before him for several minutes. He then said to me, “Drive on down into the valley; this is our abiding place. I have seen it before in vision. In this valley will be built the City of the Saints and the Temple of our God.” (Collected Discourses 1:163-164).

It could very well have been his illness that decided the matter for him. It is quite possible that he would not have wanted to continue the difficult and uncomfortable journey in that condition. By his own account, Young was unable to even get out of the carriage and view the Great Salt Lake Valley when they arrived. When exactly Young made the decision to settle in Utah may never be known. One thing is certain: there is no concrete evidence to suggest that Joseph Smith predicted that the Saints would settle in what is known today as the Salt Lake Valley.
Thank you so much.

blitzinstripes
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

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You're welcome. I hope it was helpful.

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tmac
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

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So, quite possibly, just yet another matter of Mormon Myth and folklore?

But that still doesn’t mean that God hasn’t had a guiding hand in the whole thing. My question, which I have repeatedly posed elsewhere, is whether there is or will be any reasonably discernible strategic advantage in the mountains?
Last edited by tmac on February 26th, 2023, 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 25th, 2023, 10:22 am In addition to being known for his journal writing, WW was also know to exaggerate greatly.
An example of that here with source document refs:
viewtopic.php?p=1345954#p1345954
viewtopic.php?p=1346249#p1346249

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

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blitzinstripes wrote: February 25th, 2023, 5:20 am Those statements attributed to JS, pertaining to the Rocky Mts are dubious at best. If JS truly believed that their destiny was in the Rockies, it doesn't make much sense to expend such effort toiling in Missouri and Nauvoo. Its also suspect that such statements never seem to have been known and familiar to saints at the time, they seem to suddenly materialize after the saints had already made their exodus under BY.
Many a time have I listened to the voice of our beloved Prophet, while in council, dwell on this subject [the removal of the Saints to the Rocky Mountains] with delight; his eyes sparkling with animation, and his soul fired with the inspiration of the Spirit of the living God. It was a theme that caused the bosoms of all who were privileged to listen, to thrill with delight; intimately connected with this, were themes upon which prophets, patriarchs, priests and kings dwelt with pleasure and delight: of them they prophesied, sung, wrote, spoke and desired to see, but died without the sight. My spirit glows with sacred fire while I reflect upon these scenes, and I say, O Lord, hasten the day!

—John Taylor, quoted in B.H. Roberts, The Life of John Taylor, 179–180

I have plenty more as well.

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

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Remember, the o,p, Wilford Woodruff information was likely written down within a week or two of hearing the Prophet Joseph speak even though he used it again at a General Conference many years later.. Here is more information, by other eye witnesses.

These things did not come upon us unexpectedly, at least to those who were watching the signs of the times--the Prophet Joseph had told us that many of us would live to go the "Rocky Mountains', and there become a mighty people, therefore we were looking forward to this time. Some of us was afraid we would not have time to finish the [Nauvoo] temple before these things came upon us, they were coming so fast. Autobiography of Wandle Mace, 188–189.

Samuel W. Richards remembered being assigned by Joseph to "explore the Rocky Mountains with 23 other men to find a place where the Church could be established." Samuel W. Richards, cited in Autobiography and Diary Excerpts of Anthony W. Ivins (8 October 1905); compare similar story recorded by Diary Excerpts of Thomas A. Clawson, 1904-1906 Bk, p. 350 (Aug 6, 1906).

In the days of Joseph we have sat many hours at a time conversing about this very country. Joseph has often said, "If I were only in the Rocky Mountains with a hundred faithful men, I would then be happy, and ask no odds of mobocrats." And neither do I. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 11:16.

Was it upon our own natural judgment [that we came to the valley]? No; we founded our expectation upon that which God had spoken in the modern revelations which He had given to us as a people. He told us, by revelation, before our prophet was martyred, that we would have to leave the United States: go beyond the Rocky Mountains, and seek our home in the wilderness, and that we would have a great people gather with us.Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses 21:274.

Joseph, the Prophet, said we would come to the Rocky Mountains, and he had a company of young men selected to hunt a location for a home for the Saints. Samuel Richards was one of that company. I heard of it when we were in Illinois, and I remember an old lady coming in and talking to mother about what Joseph, the Prophet, had said that we would be in the Rocky Mountains sometime. I said I would like the time to come soon, I would like to get away from our enemies. She gave me a right good scolding, saying it was terrible to think of going to the Rocky Mountains. Bathsheba W. Smith, Young Woman's Journal 16 (1905): 549-58

"It tried a great many people when the Prophet gave out the word that there was to be no more gathering at Nauvoo, as the people thought that was the place. He first told them to gather there, but later told them the Rocky Mountains would be the gathering place. It was his thought that they would come to the Rocky Mountains." Rachel Ridgeway Grant, Young Woman's Journal 16 (1905): 549-58

Patriarch Jas. H. Leathead bore an interesting testimony. Said that he was a resident of [p.613] Nauvoo in the early days of the church and filled the position of drummer boy in the Nauvoo band. Said that he was present and heard the Prophet Joseph Smith predict that the saints would move to the Rocky Mountains. Larson, Diaries of Rudger Clawson, 612–613.

When in the western country, many years ago, before we came to the Rocky Mountains, I had a dream. I dreamed of being in these mountains, and of seeing a large fine looking temple erected in one of these valleys which was built of cut granite stone, I saw that temple dedicated, and I attended the dedicatory services, and I saw a good many men that are living today in the midst of this people. Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses 21:299.

Over fifty years ago, while in Boston, he [Woodruff]...dreamed that the Saints migrated to the Rocky Mountains, built a Temple and dedicated it; that at the dedicatory services Elders were set apart to go among the Gentile nations to bind the law and seal the testimony. John Nuttall, L. John Nuttall Papers, Letter Press Book #4, 285.

On the 20th of February, 1844, the Prophet Joseph Smith instructed the Twelve Apostles to send a delegation and make explorations in Oregon and California, and seek a good location to which we can remove after the Temple is completed, and "where we can build a city in a day, and have a government of our own....Previous to this, the Prophet had remarked to me that he anticipated moving to the Rocky Mountains with all his family, where he could live in peace and worship God unmolested. But other scenes and prospects awaited us. Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, 76.

On August 6, 1842, Joseph Smith wrote: "I had a conversation with a number of brethren in the shade of the building on the subject of our persecutions in Missouri and the constant annoyance which has followed us since we were driven from that state. I prophesied that the Saints would continue to suffer much affliction and would be driven to the Rocky Mountains, many would apostatize, others would be put to death by our persecutors or lose their lives in consequence of exposure to disease, and some of you will live to go and assist in making settlements and build cities and see the Saints become a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains."

There are also recollections by other church members of Joseph mapping the path the pioneers would take to the Salt Lake Valley. For example, George H. Goddard, a Mormon Pioneer, testified that he was present in the Nauvoo Masonic Hall when Joseph Smith drew a map on the floor with a piece of chalk the Great Basin of western America, indicating the course they would follow across the plains and into the West.

Another church member, Hopkins C. Pendar, reported that "Joseph Smith just before he was killed, made a sketch of the future home of the Saints in the Rocky Mountains and their route or road to that country as he had seen [it] in vision; a map or drawing of it."

Mosiah Hancock wrote in his journal about Joseph Smith visiting his father, Levi's, home, just prior to his demise in Carthage. Mosiah writes, ". . . the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter shop and stood by the turning lathe I went and got my map for him. 'Now,' said he, 'I will show you the travels of this people.' He then showed our travels thru Iowa, and said, 'Here you will make a place for the winter; and here you will travel west until you come to the valley of the Great Salt Lake! You will build cities to the North and to the South, and to the East and to the West; and you will become a great and wealthy people in that land.'"

Wilford Woodruff, Conference Report, April 1898, p.57
Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith (Aug. 6, 1842.) (Millennial Star, Vol. xix., page 630)
"The Life Story of Mosiah Lyman Hancock"
E. Cecil McGavin, "Nauvoo the Beautiful" (Salt Lake City, 1946)
Hyrum L. Andrus, BYU Studies, Vol. 2, No. 2, p.14

Another interesting side note is that after the February, 1844 information, revelations given from praying in the Nauvoo Temple, through arriving in the Salt Lake Valley would put a much finer point on just where the saints would end up before branching out through out the west. Another important part the story. According to President George A. Smith, first counselor in the First Presidency, Brigham Young had a vision of Joseph Smith and Mount Ensign while in the Nauvoo Temple, prior to leaving the East.

"President Young had a vision of Joseph Smith, who showed him the mountain that we now call Ensign Peak, immediately north of Salt Lake City, and there was an ensign that fell upon that peak, and Joseph said, 'Build under that point where the colors fall and you will prosper and have peace."' (From an address given in the Tabernacle on June 20, 1869.)

President Joseph F. Smith provided a similar description 13 years later: "(Brigham Young) had before seen an ensign descend and light upon the mountain peak, which is now called from that circumstance — 'Ensign Peak' — which was an indication to him that this was the resting place God designed for his people." (From an address given in the Provo Tabernacle on Dec. 3, 1882.)

The Mormon pioneers arrived in Utah on Saturday, July 24, 1847. They spent all of the next day, Sunday, resting and worshiping God. However, on July 26, one of the first tasks attempted was to climb what is now known as Ensign Peak to get a better look at the valley and probably also to see firsthand the mountain in President Young's vision.https://www.deseret.com/2007/6/15/20023 ... un-to-hike

And this from fairlatterdaysaints.org.. Historian Dale Morgan, certainly not an LDS apologist or propagandist, wrote to a private correspondent who seemed to share the author's views of this account:

it is my understanding from reading controversial works involving the Reorganized Church that you have combatted the idea that Joseph Smith ever intended leading the Mormons out of the Mississippi Valley to the West, and that you tend to regard proofs advanced by the L.D.S. church as being revisions of original history to serve the propagandic purposes of this church. This is a matter to which I have given especial attention, and in the work on the Mormons that I have conceived, I believe I shall be able to demolish once and for all any argument that Joseph Smith did not entertain this purpose.

My materials have been drawn in some part, though by no means wholly, from the L.D.S. archives here, but I do not think historians of the Reorganized Church will seriously question my findings when I am enabled to publish them. I cannot speak so authoritatively about the authenticity of the Rocky Mountains prophecy, but I am by no means disposed to doubt it, in view of what I have learned about Smith's purposes in the winter of 1844. I cannot undertake to discuss the whole subject at length here, so for the present I must content myself with assuring you that the statements in the Utah Guide about the proposal to migrate to the Rocky Mountains have a firm factual foundation, and I will publish the proofs in due course. Dale Morgan to S.A. Burgess, "Dear Mr. Burgess"; citing in John Phillip Walker, editor, Dale Morgan on Early Mormonism: Correspondence and a New History (Salt Lake City, Utah: Signature Books, 1986), 38. (emphasis added)https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... n_prophecy

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HereWeGo
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

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And then there is this:

History of the Church, Vol VI, Ch XXIX wrote:
Saturday, June 11, 1844.--About 9 p. m. Hyrum came out of the Mansion and gave his hand to Reynolds Cahoon, at the same time saying, "A company of men are seeking to kill my brother Joseph, and the Lord has warned him to flee to the Rocky Mountains to save his life. Goodbye, Brother Cahoon, we shall see you again." In a few minutes afterwards Joseph came from his family. His tears were flowing fast. Be held a handkerchief to his face, and followed after Brother Hyrum without uttering a word.

Sunday, 23.--At daybreak arrived on the Iowa side of the river. Sent Orrin P. Rockwell back to Nauvoo with instructions to return the next night with horses for Joseph and Hyrum, pass them over the river in the night secretly, and be ready to start for the Great Basin in the Rocky Mountains.
* * *
At 1 p. m. Emma sent over Orrin P. Rockwell, requesting him to entreat of Joseph to come back Reynolds Cahoon accompanied him with a letter which Emma had written to the same effect, and she insisted that Cahoon should persuade Joseph to come back and give himself up. When they went over they found Joseph, Hyrum and Willard in a room by themselves, having flour and other provisions on he floor ready for packing.

Reynolds Cahoon informed Joseph what the troops intended to do, and urged upon him to give himself up inasmuch as the Governor had pledged his faith and the faith of the state to protect him while he underwent a legal and fair trial. Reynolds Cahoon, Lorenzo D. Wasson and Hiram Kimball accused Joseph of cowardice for wishing to leave the people, adding that their property would be destroyed, and they left without house or home. Like the fable, when the wolves came the shepherd ran from the flock, and left the sheep to be devoured. To which Joseph replied, "If my life is of no value to my friends it is of none to myself."

Joseph said to Rockwell, "What shall I do?" Rockwell replied, "You are the oldest and ought to know best; and as you make your bed, I will lie with you." Joseph then turned to Hyrum, who was talking with Cahoon, and said, "Brother Hyrum, you are the oldest, what shall we do?" Hyrum said, "Let us go back and give ourselves up, and see the thing out." After studying a few moments, Joseph said, "If you go back I will go with you, but we shall be butchered." Hyrum said, "No, no; let us go back and put our trust in God, and we shall not be harmed. The Lord is in it. If we live or have to die, we will be reconciled to our fate."

After a short pause, Joseph told Cahoon to request Captain Daniel C. Davis to have his boat ready at half-past five to cross them over the river.

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tmac
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

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Thanks for all the various evidence. It would have been one thing for JS to find refuge in the Great Basin of the Rock Mountains. It is another thing entirely for the future body of the saints to find ultimate refuge there. In the 19th century, the Great Basin offered all kinds of refuge from the World that it doesn’t offer now — especially once Babylon was invited into the midst. So, once again, what kind of strategic refuge do the mountains offer now?

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

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HereWeGo wrote: February 27th, 2023, 9:37 pm And then there is this:

History of the Church, Vol VI, Ch XXIX wrote:
Saturday, June 11, 1844.--About 9 p. m. Hyrum came out of the Mansion and gave his hand to Reynolds Cahoon, at the same time saying, "A company of men are seeking to kill my brother Joseph, and the Lord has warned him to flee to the Rocky Mountains to save his life. Goodbye, Brother Cahoon, we shall see you again." In a few minutes afterwards Joseph came from his family. His tears were flowing fast. Be held a handkerchief to his face, and followed after Brother Hyrum without uttering a word.

Sunday, 23.--At daybreak arrived on the Iowa side of the river. Sent Orrin P. Rockwell back to Nauvoo with instructions to return the next night with horses for Joseph and Hyrum, pass them over the river in the night secretly, and be ready to start for the Great Basin in the Rocky Mountains.
* * *
At 1 p. m. Emma sent over Orrin P. Rockwell, requesting him to entreat of Joseph to come back Reynolds Cahoon accompanied him with a letter which Emma had written to the same effect, and she insisted that Cahoon should persuade Joseph to come back and give himself up. When they went over they found Joseph, Hyrum and Willard in a room by themselves, having flour and other provisions on he floor ready for packing.

Reynolds Cahoon informed Joseph what the troops intended to do, and urged upon him to give himself up inasmuch as the Governor had pledged his faith and the faith of the state to protect him while he underwent a legal and fair trial. Reynolds Cahoon, Lorenzo D. Wasson and Hiram Kimball accused Joseph of cowardice for wishing to leave the people, adding that their property would be destroyed, and they left without house or home. Like the fable, when the wolves came the shepherd ran from the flock, and left the sheep to be devoured. To which Joseph replied, "If my life is of no value to my friends it is of none to myself."

Joseph said to Rockwell, "What shall I do?" Rockwell replied, "You are the oldest and ought to know best; and as you make your bed, I will lie with you." Joseph then turned to Hyrum, who was talking with Cahoon, and said, "Brother Hyrum, you are the oldest, what shall we do?" Hyrum said, "Let us go back and give ourselves up, and see the thing out." After studying a few moments, Joseph said, "If you go back I will go with you, but we shall be butchered." Hyrum said, "No, no; let us go back and put our trust in God, and we shall not be harmed. The Lord is in it. If we live or have to die, we will be reconciled to our fate."

After a short pause, Joseph told Cahoon to request Captain Daniel C. Davis to have his boat ready at half-past five to cross them over the river.
The Prophet had told the Saints that Nauvoo was not to be the final resting place of the Church and had talked to many leaders of the Church of the Rocky Mountains. He had even drawn a map to the Salt Lake Valley for Brigham Young. Illinois Governor Thomas Ford wrote to Joseph Smith, insisting that the city council members stand trial before a non-Mormon jury on a charge of causing a civil disturbance on account of the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor Press. He said that such a trial would satisfy the people He also promised all the men complete protection during the trial. Even though he thought Ford, at the time, had the best intentions, the Prophet did not believe he could fulfill this pledge. They decided it was now time to start the journey west. The Prophet told the Saints before he left that all the mobs wanted was his own blood, but if he left, he promised them “that not a hair of your head should be harmed.” Joseph, Hyrum, Willard Richards and Rockwell crossed the Mississippi in a boat owned by Aaron Johnson. The boat was leaky and while Rockwell rowed, the others bailed water with their boots and shoes to keep it from sinking. They crossed to the Iowa side of the river and the next day Rockwell went back to Nauvoo for horses, returning in the afternoon with Reynolds Cahoon, who had been guarding the Mansion House, Hiram Kimball and Lorenzo Wasson, Emma Smith's nephew. Reynolds Cahoon gave Joseph a letter from Emma and at the same time he reminded the Prophet that he had always said that if the Church would stick with him, he would stick with the Church. These three men chastised Joseph for running away. After accusations of cowardice, and much persuasion, Joseph decided to go back. He remarked, "If my life is of no value to my friends, it is of none to myself.” Porter Rockwell, when asked what he thought should be done, replied to the Prophet with a nineteenth-century phrase-"As you make your bed, I will lie with you." Said Joseph, "Hyrum, you are the oldest, what shall we do?" Hyrum answered, "Let us go back and give ourselves up." The Prophet responded, "If you go back I will go with you, but we shall be butchered." Rockwell again rowed them back, as the Prophet prepared to leave Nauvoo for the county seat of Carthage, about 20 miles away, he knew that he was seeing his family and friends for the last time. He prophesied, “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter, but I am calm as a summer’s morning.”

Although Porter and several others accompanied the Prophet on the way to Carthage, the Prophet stopped them about half way and ordered them to go home. During his stay at the Carthage jail, the Prophet wrote several letters home and to the Twelve Apostles. One of those letters was to instruct Porter not to come to Carthage for fear of his life.

On the 27th day of June, Porter went to an upper room in the Mansion House to get a hat he had left there. As he entered the room, he was surprised to find it occupied by Governor Ford of Illinois and a few of his militia officers, the man who had promised protection to the Saints, but who had done nothing to safe-guard them. The men were listening to the governor, who was standing behind a chair. Just as Port entered the room, the governor stated, “The deed is done by now.” All was suddenly quiet in the room when Porter walked in, and with apologies he hastily left. It appeared that Ford had deliberately absented himself from Carthage. Shortly after five o’clock in the afternoon, a mob of about 200 men with painted faces stormed the Carthage Jail, shot and killed Joseph and his brother Hyrum, and seriously wounded John Taylor. Only Willard Richards remained unharmed. Upon hearing shouts of “the Mormons are coming,” the mob fled, as did most of Carthage’s residents. Willard Richards cared for the wounded John Taylor, both of them mourning their slain leaders. Hyrum’s body was inside the jail, while Joseph, who had fallen from a window, lay beside the outside well. The mobbers then propped up his body against the well and shot him four more times

President James E Faust commented, “Some of the enemies of Joseph Smith exulted in their infamous deeds; and many proclaimed that the Church, which he had restored and for which he had given his life, would die with him. But, to the surprise of its enemies, the Church did not die nor did the work of Joseph Smith cease with his mortal death. What has transpired in a century and a half bears eloquent testimony to the eternal nature of the work of this singularly remarkable man, Joseph Smith."

The first actual record of Porter killing anyone is on this same day of murder and conspiracy. Carthage Gray, Frank Worrell was a Commander in the Grays and is still held as being most responsible for the attack on the jail. The full meaning of Ford's words in the Mansion House did not impress themselves upon Porter's mind until a short time later when he was talking it over with Gilbert Belnap. Belnap had rode into Nauvoo with news of an attack on Carthage, Rockwell with Belnap then rode full speed toward Carthage. Not far into the journey they saw a man in a buckboard racing wildly in their direction fleeing for his life and being pursued by a mob. Upon closer inspection it was Nauvoo Sherriff Jacob Backenstos, who shouted for help upon seeing Rockwell and Belnap, calling on them to save his life. Porter and his companion dismounted, drew their guns and Rockwell fired. This one shot hit Worrell center in the chest and flipped him from the back of his horse. The rest of the horsemen from Carthage decided to retreat upon their leader’s sudden death.


He was told by Smith never to cut his hair and he would be protected from bullet and blade. He kept his hair long until 1855, when he cut it to provide a wig for Agnes Smith, the widow of Smith's brother who had lost her hair from a bout with typhoid fever.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

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kirtland r.m. wrote: February 24th, 2023, 9:32 pm Kirtland Ohio, 1833

"Brethren, I have been very much edified and instructed in your testimonies here tonight, but I want to say to you before the Lord, that you know no more concerning the destinies of this Church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother's lap. You don't comprehend it." I was rather surprised. He said, "It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight, but this Church will fill North and South America - it will fill the world." Among other things, he said, "It will fill the Rocky Mountains. There will be tens of thousands of Latter-day Saints who will be gathered in the Rocky Mountains, and there they will open the door for the establishing of the Gospel among the Lamanites, who will receive the Gospel and their endowments and the blessings of God. This people will go into the Rocky Mountains; they will there build temples to the Most High. They will raise up a posterity there, and the Latter-day Saints who dwell in these mountains will stand in the flesh until the coming of the Son of Man. The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains." Joseph Smith
Quoted by Wilford Woodruff, GC April 1898, p 57.

And yes, some early endowment information was given at Kirtland. The Kirtland Temple endowment ceremonies were patterned after Old Testament sacerdotal practices. They consisted of preparatory washings, administered in private homes, in which men washed and purified their bodies with water and alcohol Kirtland Elders' Quorum Record 1836-1841, 25 January 1836 . I have more on this from the School of the Prophets and other sources, but this is probably enough.

Parting thought, remember, Wilford Woodruff was a prolific Journal writer and wrote down a good portion of experiences in early church history. Wilford Woodruff began writing a daily journal shortly after joining the Church in 1833 and continued writing until his death in 1898. The resulting 31 volumes constitute one of the most significant records of the history of the Church.
And what will He say to them?


43 And now, I will show unto you a parable, that you may know my will concerning the redemption of Zion. 44 A certain nobleman had a spot of land, very choice; and he said unto his servants: Go ye unto my vineyard, even upon this very choice piece of land, and plant twelve olive trees; 45 And set watchmen round about them, and build a tower, that one may overlook the land round about, to be a watchman upon the tower, that mine olive trees may not be broken down when the enemy shall come to spoil and take upon themselves the fruit of my vineyard. 46 Now, the servants of the nobleman went and did as their lord commanded them, and planted the olive trees, and built a hedge round about, and set watchmen, and began to build a tower. 47 And while they were yet laying the foundation thereof, they began to say among themselves: And what need hath my lord of this tower? 48 And consulted for a long time, saying among themselves: What need hath my lord of this tower, seeing this is a time of peace? 49 Might not this money be given to the exchangers? For there is no need of these things. 50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord. 51 And the enemy came by night, and broke down the hedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees. 52 Now, behold, the nobleman, the lord of the vineyard, called upon his servants, and said unto them, Why! what is the cause of this great evil? 53 Ought ye not to have done even as I commanded you, and—after ye had planted the vineyard, and built the hedge round about, and set watchmen upon the walls thereof—built the tower also, and set a watchman upon the tower, and watched for my vineyard, and not have fallen asleep, lest the enemy should come upon you? 54 And behold, the watchman upon the tower would have seen the enemy while he was yet afar off; and then ye could have made ready and kept the enemy from breaking down the hedge thereof, and saved my vineyard from the hands of the destroyer. 55 And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants, and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry; 56 And go ye straightway unto the land of my vineyard, and redeem my vineyard; for it is mine; I have bought it with money. 57 Therefore, get ye straightway unto my land; break down the walls of mine enemies; throw down their tower, and scatter their watchmen. 58 And inasmuch as they gather together against you, avenge me of mine enemies, that by and by I may come with the residue of mine house and possess the land. 59 And the servant said unto his lord: When shall these things be? 60 And he said unto his servant: When I will; go ye straightway, and do all things whatsoever I have commanded you; 61 And this shall be my seal and blessing upon you—a faithful and wise steward in the midst of mine house, a ruler in my kingdom. 62 And his servant went straightway, and did all things whatsoever his lord commanded him; and after many days all things were fulfilled.

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HereWeGo
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

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kirtland r.m. wrote: February 28th, 2023, 8:57 pm
HereWeGo wrote: February 27th, 2023, 9:37 pm And then there is this:

History of the Church, Vol VI, Ch XXIX wrote:
Saturday, June 11, 1844.--About 9 p. m. Hyrum came out of the Mansion and gave his hand to Reynolds Cahoon, at the same time saying, "A company of men are seeking to kill my brother Joseph, and the Lord has warned him to flee to the Rocky Mountains to save his life. Goodbye, Brother Cahoon, we shall see you again." In a few minutes afterwards Joseph came from his family. His tears were flowing fast. Be held a handkerchief to his face, and followed after Brother Hyrum without uttering a word.

Sunday, 23.--At daybreak arrived on the Iowa side of the river. Sent Orrin P. Rockwell back to Nauvoo with instructions to return the next night with horses for Joseph and Hyrum, pass them over the river in the night secretly, and be ready to start for the Great Basin in the Rocky Mountains.
* * *
At 1 p. m. Emma sent over Orrin P. Rockwell, requesting him to entreat of Joseph to come back Reynolds Cahoon accompanied him with a letter which Emma had written to the same effect, and she insisted that Cahoon should persuade Joseph to come back and give himself up. When they went over they found Joseph, Hyrum and Willard in a room by themselves, having flour and other provisions on he floor ready for packing.

Reynolds Cahoon informed Joseph what the troops intended to do, and urged upon him to give himself up inasmuch as the Governor had pledged his faith and the faith of the state to protect him while he underwent a legal and fair trial. Reynolds Cahoon, Lorenzo D. Wasson and Hiram Kimball accused Joseph of cowardice for wishing to leave the people, adding that their property would be destroyed, and they left without house or home. Like the fable, when the wolves came the shepherd ran from the flock, and left the sheep to be devoured. To which Joseph replied, "If my life is of no value to my friends it is of none to myself."

Joseph said to Rockwell, "What shall I do?" Rockwell replied, "You are the oldest and ought to know best; and as you make your bed, I will lie with you." Joseph then turned to Hyrum, who was talking with Cahoon, and said, "Brother Hyrum, you are the oldest, what shall we do?" Hyrum said, "Let us go back and give ourselves up, and see the thing out." After studying a few moments, Joseph said, "If you go back I will go with you, but we shall be butchered." Hyrum said, "No, no; let us go back and put our trust in God, and we shall not be harmed. The Lord is in it. If we live or have to die, we will be reconciled to our fate."

After a short pause, Joseph told Cahoon to request Captain Daniel C. Davis to have his boat ready at half-past five to cross them over the river.
The Prophet had told the Saints that Nauvoo was not to be the final resting place of the Church and had talked to many leaders of the Church of the Rocky Mountains. He had even drawn a map to the Salt Lake Valley for Brigham Young. Illinois Governor Thomas Ford wrote to Joseph Smith, insisting that the city council members stand trial before a non-Mormon jury on a charge of causing a civil disturbance on account of the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor Press. He said that such a trial would satisfy the people He also promised all the men complete protection during the trial. Even though he thought Ford, at the time, had the best intentions, the Prophet did not believe he could fulfill this pledge. They decided it was now time to start the journey west. The Prophet told the Saints before he left that all the mobs wanted was his own blood, but if he left, he promised them “that not a hair of your head should be harmed.” Joseph, Hyrum, Willard Richards and Rockwell crossed the Mississippi in a boat owned by Aaron Johnson. The boat was leaky and while Rockwell rowed, the others bailed water with their boots and shoes to keep it from sinking. They crossed to the Iowa side of the river and the next day Rockwell went back to Nauvoo for horses, returning in the afternoon with Reynolds Cahoon, who had been guarding the Mansion House, Hiram Kimball and Lorenzo Wasson, Emma Smith's nephew. Reynolds Cahoon gave Joseph a letter from Emma and at the same time he reminded the Prophet that he had always said that if the Church would stick with him, he would stick with the Church. These three men chastised Joseph for running away. After accusations of cowardice, and much persuasion, Joseph decided to go back. He remarked, "If my life is of no value to my friends, it is of none to myself.” Porter Rockwell, when asked what he thought should be done, replied to the Prophet with a nineteenth-century phrase-"As you make your bed, I will lie with you." Said Joseph, "Hyrum, you are the oldest, what shall we do?" Hyrum answered, "Let us go back and give ourselves up." The Prophet responded, "If you go back I will go with you, but we shall be butchered." Rockwell again rowed them back, as the Prophet prepared to leave Nauvoo for the county seat of Carthage, about 20 miles away, he knew that he was seeing his family and friends for the last time. He prophesied, “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter, but I am calm as a summer’s morning.”

Although Porter and several others accompanied the Prophet on the way to Carthage, the Prophet stopped them about half way and ordered them to go home. During his stay at the Carthage jail, the Prophet wrote several letters home and to the Twelve Apostles. One of those letters was to instruct Porter not to come to Carthage for fear of his life.

On the 27th day of June, Porter went to an upper room in the Mansion House to get a hat he had left there. As he entered the room, he was surprised to find it occupied by Governor Ford of Illinois and a few of his militia officers, the man who had promised protection to the Saints, but who had done nothing to safe-guard them. The men were listening to the governor, who was standing behind a chair. Just as Port entered the room, the governor stated, “The deed is done by now.” All was suddenly quiet in the room when Porter walked in, and with apologies he hastily left. It appeared that Ford had deliberately absented himself from Carthage. Shortly after five o’clock in the afternoon, a mob of about 200 men with painted faces stormed the Carthage Jail, shot and killed Joseph and his brother Hyrum, and seriously wounded John Taylor. Only Willard Richards remained unharmed. Upon hearing shouts of “the Mormons are coming,” the mob fled, as did most of Carthage’s residents. Willard Richards cared for the wounded John Taylor, both of them mourning their slain leaders. Hyrum’s body was inside the jail, while Joseph, who had fallen from a window, lay beside the outside well. The mobbers then propped up his body against the well and shot him four more times

President James E Faust commented, “Some of the enemies of Joseph Smith exulted in their infamous deeds; and many proclaimed that the Church, which he had restored and for which he had given his life, would die with him. But, to the surprise of its enemies, the Church did not die nor did the work of Joseph Smith cease with his mortal death. What has transpired in a century and a half bears eloquent testimony to the eternal nature of the work of this singularly remarkable man, Joseph Smith."

The first actual record of Porter killing anyone is on this same day of murder and conspiracy. Carthage Gray, Frank Worrell was a Commander in the Grays and is still held as being most responsible for the attack on the jail. The full meaning of Ford's words in the Mansion House did not impress themselves upon Porter's mind until a short time later when he was talking it over with Gilbert Belnap. Belnap had rode into Nauvoo with news of an attack on Carthage, Rockwell with Belnap then rode full speed toward Carthage. Not far into the journey they saw a man in a buckboard racing wildly in their direction fleeing for his life and being pursued by a mob. Upon closer inspection it was Nauvoo Sherriff Jacob Backenstos, who shouted for help upon seeing Rockwell and Belnap, calling on them to save his life. Porter and his companion dismounted, drew their guns and Rockwell fired. This one shot hit Worrell center in the chest and flipped him from the back of his horse. The rest of the horsemen from Carthage decided to retreat upon their leader’s sudden death.


He was told by Smith never to cut his hair and he would be protected from bullet and blade. He kept his hair long until 1855, when he cut it to provide a wig for Agnes Smith, the widow of Smith's brother who had lost her hair from a bout with typhoid fever.
I like your quotes. I save quotes like this in various word documents by subject. There are no citations, however, on your quotes. I have found that people don't accept my quotes without good citations so that others can verify the quotes.

Do you have citations to where these quotes can be found and verified?

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

kirtland r.m. wrote: February 28th, 2023, 8:57 pm On the 27th day of June, Porter went to an upper room in the Mansion House to get a hat he had left there. As he entered the room, he was surprised to find it occupied by Governor Ford of Illinois and a few of his militia officers, the man who had promised protection to the Saints, but who had done nothing to safe-guard them. The men were listening to the governor, who was standing behind a chair.
Do you know if Porter (or anyone else for that matter) ever identified the men who were in this room with the governor?

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

Post by kirtland r.m. »

HereWeGo wrote: March 1st, 2023, 1:46 pm
kirtland r.m. wrote: February 28th, 2023, 8:57 pm
HereWeGo wrote: February 27th, 2023, 9:37 pm And then there is this:

History of the Church, Vol VI, Ch XXIX wrote:
Saturday, June 11, 1844.--About 9 p. m. Hyrum came out of the Mansion and gave his hand to Reynolds Cahoon, at the same time saying, "A company of men are seeking to kill my brother Joseph, and the Lord has warned him to flee to the Rocky Mountains to save his life. Goodbye, Brother Cahoon, we shall see you again." In a few minutes afterwards Joseph came from his family. His tears were flowing fast. Be held a handkerchief to his face, and followed after Brother Hyrum without uttering a word.

Sunday, 23.--At daybreak arrived on the Iowa side of the river. Sent Orrin P. Rockwell back to Nauvoo with instructions to return the next night with horses for Joseph and Hyrum, pass them over the river in the night secretly, and be ready to start for the Great Basin in the Rocky Mountains.
* * *
At 1 p. m. Emma sent over Orrin P. Rockwell, requesting him to entreat of Joseph to come back Reynolds Cahoon accompanied him with a letter which Emma had written to the same effect, and she insisted that Cahoon should persuade Joseph to come back and give himself up. When they went over they found Joseph, Hyrum and Willard in a room by themselves, having flour and other provisions on he floor ready for packing.
Sure, the Frank Worrell quote is from
Reynolds Cahoon informed Joseph what the troops intended to do, and urged upon him to give himself up inasmuch as the Governor had pledged his faith and the faith of the state to protect him while he underwent a legal and fair trial. Reynolds Cahoon, Lorenzo D. Wasson and Hiram Kimball accused Joseph of cowardice for wishing to leave the people, adding that their property would be destroyed, and they left without house or home. Like the fable, when the wolves came the shepherd ran from the flock, and left the sheep to be devoured. To which Joseph replied, "If my life is of no value to my friends it is of none to myself."

Joseph said to Rockwell, "What shall I do?" Rockwell replied, "You are the oldest and ought to know best; and as you make your bed, I will lie with you." Joseph then turned to Hyrum, who was talking with Cahoon, and said, "Brother Hyrum, you are the oldest, what shall we do?" Hyrum said, "Let us go back and give ourselves up, and see the thing out." After studying a few moments, Joseph said, "If you go back I will go with you, but we shall be butchered." Hyrum said, "No, no; let us go back and put our trust in God, and we shall not be harmed. The Lord is in it. If we live or have to die, we will be reconciled to our fate."

After a short pause, Joseph told Cahoon to request Captain Daniel C. Davis to have his boat ready at half-past five to cross them over the river.
The Prophet had told the Saints that Nauvoo was not to be the final resting place of the Church and had talked to many leaders of the Church of the Rocky Mountains. He had even drawn a map to the Salt Lake Valley for Brigham Young. Illinois Governor Thomas Ford wrote to Joseph Smith, insisting that the city council members stand trial before a non-Mormon jury on a charge of causing a civil disturbance on account of the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor Press. He said that such a trial would satisfy the people He also promised all the men complete protection during the trial. Even though he thought Ford, at the time, had the best intentions, the Prophet did not believe he could fulfill this pledge. They decided it was now time to start the journey west. The Prophet told the Saints before he left that all the mobs wanted was his own blood, but if he left, he promised them “that not a hair of your head should be harmed.” Joseph, Hyrum, Willard Richards and Rockwell crossed the Mississippi in a boat owned by Aaron Johnson. The boat was leaky and while Rockwell rowed, the others bailed water with their boots and shoes to keep it from sinking. They crossed to the Iowa side of the river and the next day Rockwell went back to Nauvoo for horses, returning in the afternoon with Reynolds Cahoon, who had been guarding the Mansion House, Hiram Kimball and Lorenzo Wasson, Emma Smith's nephew. Reynolds Cahoon gave Joseph a letter from Emma and at the same time he reminded the Prophet that he had always said that if the Church would stick with him, he would stick with the Church. These three men chastised Joseph for running away. After accusations of cowardice, and much persuasion, Joseph decided to go back. He remarked, "If my life is of no value to my friends, it is of none to myself.” Porter Rockwell, when asked what he thought should be done, replied to the Prophet with a nineteenth-century phrase-"As you make your bed, I will lie with you." Said Joseph, "Hyrum, you are the oldest, what shall we do?" Hyrum answered, "Let us go back and give ourselves up." The Prophet responded, "If you go back I will go with you, but we shall be butchered." Rockwell again rowed them back, as the Prophet prepared to leave Nauvoo for the county seat of Carthage, about 20 miles away, he knew that he was seeing his family and friends for the last time. He prophesied, “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter, but I am calm as a summer’s morning.”

Although Porter and several others accompanied the Prophet on the way to Carthage, the Prophet stopped them about half way and ordered them to go home. During his stay at the Carthage jail, the Prophet wrote several letters home and to the Twelve Apostles. One of those letters was to instruct Porter not to come to Carthage for fear of his life.

On the 27th day of June, Porter went to an upper room in the Mansion House to get a hat he had left there. As he entered the room, he was surprised to find it occupied by Governor Ford of Illinois and a few of his militia officers, the man who had promised protection to the Saints, but who had done nothing to safe-guard them. The men were listening to the governor, who was standing behind a chair. Just as Port entered the room, the governor stated, “The deed is done by now.” All was suddenly quiet in the room when Porter walked in, and with apologies he hastily left. It appeared that Ford had deliberately absented himself from Carthage. Shortly after five o’clock in the afternoon, a mob of about 200 men with painted faces stormed the Carthage Jail, shot and killed Joseph and his brother Hyrum, and seriously wounded John Taylor. Only Willard Richards remained unharmed. Upon hearing shouts of “the Mormons are coming,” the mob fled, as did most of Carthage’s residents. Willard Richards cared for the wounded John Taylor, both of them mourning their slain leaders. Hyrum’s body was inside the jail, while Joseph, who had fallen from a window, lay beside the outside well. The mobbers then propped up his body against the well and shot him four more times

President James E Faust commented, “Some of the enemies of Joseph Smith exulted in their infamous deeds; and many proclaimed that the Church, which he had restored and for which he had given his life, would die with him. But, to the surprise of its enemies, the Church did not die nor did the work of Joseph Smith cease with his mortal death. What has transpired in a century and a half bears eloquent testimony to the eternal nature of the work of this singularly remarkable man, Joseph Smith."

The first actual record of Porter killing anyone is on this same day of murder and conspiracy. Carthage Gray, Frank Worrell was a Commander in the Grays and is still held as being most responsible for the attack on the jail. The full meaning of Ford's words in the Mansion House did not impress themselves upon Porter's mind until a short time later when he was talking it over with Gilbert Belnap. Belnap had rode into Nauvoo with news of an attack on Carthage, Rockwell with Belnap then rode full speed toward Carthage. Not far into the journey they saw a man in a buckboard racing wildly in their direction fleeing for his life and being pursued by a mob. Upon closer inspection it was Nauvoo Sherriff Jacob Backenstos, who shouted for help upon seeing Rockwell and Belnap, calling on them to save his life. Porter and his companion dismounted, drew their guns and Rockwell fired. This one shot hit Worrell center in the chest and flipped him from the back of his horse. The rest of the horsemen from Carthage decided to retreat upon their leader’s sudden death.


He was told by Smith never to cut his hair and he would be protected from bullet and blade. He kept his hair long until 1855, when he cut it to provide a wig for Agnes Smith, the widow of Smith's brother who had lost her hair from a bout with typhoid fever.
I like your quotes. I save quotes like this in various word documents by subject. There are no citations, however, on your quotes. I have found that people don't accept my quotes without good citations so that others can verify the quotes.

Do you have citations to where these quotes can be found and verified?
Sure, the Frank Worrell quote is from “The Martyrdom” — Church History in the Fulness of Times Student Manual (Church Educational System Manual, 2003), 273–85.

The other Porter quotes sources and more can be found on this forum, here.viewtopic.php?p=1159817&hilit=Backenstos#p1159817

If I missed anything else, just let me know. ;)
Last edited by kirtland r.m. on March 1st, 2023, 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

Post by kirtland r.m. »

Dusty Wanderer wrote: March 1st, 2023, 2:24 pm
kirtland r.m. wrote: February 28th, 2023, 8:57 pm On the 27th day of June, Porter went to an upper room in the Mansion House to get a hat he had left there. As he entered the room, he was surprised to find it occupied by Governor Ford of Illinois and a few of his militia officers, the man who had promised protection to the Saints, but who had done nothing to safe-guard them. The men were listening to the governor, who was standing behind a chair.
Do you know if Porter (or anyone else for that matter) ever identified the men who were in this room with the governor?
Thanks Dusty, I will see what else I can find.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Posts: 1411

Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

kirtland r.m. wrote: March 1st, 2023, 4:16 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: March 1st, 2023, 2:24 pm
kirtland r.m. wrote: February 28th, 2023, 8:57 pm On the 27th day of June, Porter went to an upper room in the Mansion House to get a hat he had left there. As he entered the room, he was surprised to find it occupied by Governor Ford of Illinois and a few of his militia officers, the man who had promised protection to the Saints, but who had done nothing to safe-guard them. The men were listening to the governor, who was standing behind a chair.
Do you know if Porter (or anyone else for that matter) ever identified the men who were in this room with the governor?
Thanks Dusty, I will see what else I can find.
Awesome, thanks, KRM!

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: "The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains". Joseph Smith

Post by kirtland r.m. »

𝑻𝑯𝑬 𝑷𝑹𝑶𝑷𝑯𝑬𝑻 𝑰𝑺𝑨𝑰𝑨𝑯, 𝑻𝑯𝑬 𝑷𝑹𝑶𝑷𝑯𝑬𝑻 𝑱𝑶𝑺𝑬𝑷𝑯 𝑺𝑴𝑰𝑻𝑯, 𝑨𝑵𝑫 𝑱𝑬𝑺𝑼𝑺 𝑪𝑯𝑹𝑰𝑺𝑻 𝑨𝑳𝑳 𝑨𝑻𝑻𝑬𝑵𝑫𝑬𝑫 𝑻𝑯𝑬 𝑺𝑨𝑳𝑻 𝑳𝑨𝑲𝑬 𝑻𝑬𝑴𝑷𝑳𝑬 𝑫𝑬𝑫𝑰𝑪𝑨𝑻𝑰𝑶𝑵.
The Doctrine of Christ Mob love to persecute members of the church and beat them over the head with all manner of false accusations about the Church and ordained leadership of Brigham Young. This is just one of many diabolical tactics they use to convince members to let go of the fruit of the tree of life ( or in other word’s to get them deny the sacred temple endowment).
The most oft-repeated accusation is:
“Brigham Young wasn’t a Prophet because he didn’t have any revelations.” Just like the Pharisees in Jesus Christ’s day, the DoC Mob demand signs. And, Like the PHarisees, the Doctrine of Christ MOB deny the fulfillment of prophecy as it is happening.
BRIGHAM YOUNG FULFILLED ANCIENT BIBLICAL PROPHECY!
Here are the facts:
On September 21, 1823, the angel Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith and instructed him on many passages of scripture chief among them was a prophecy derived from a vision shown to Isaiah. ( see Isaiah 2:2-3) This is the vision of the temple built in the Rocky Mountains in the last days.
Not only did Moroni quote this passage of scripture to Joseph Smith, but Joseph Smith even had visions related to this conversation and we are informed through the prophetic records that at one time the Prophet Isaiah himself appeared to Joseph Smith to personally explanan his biblical prophecies. Jospeh Smith was told by Isaiah that the Church would one day build a temple in the Rocky Mountains. This is why as early as 1830, the Prophet Joseph Smlth expressed his desire to gather the Saints to the Rocky Mountains.
It was also well known among the membership of the early Church that Joseph Smlth planned to establish a literal Zion in the tops of the Mountains, in fulfillment of Prophecy. God had promised Jospeh Smith that the Rocky Mountains would be a land of inheritance for the Saints.
After the death of Joseph Smith, The responsibility of leading the Church on their exodus West fell upon Brigham Young. Once, When President Young was fasting and praying about the upcoming exodus to the west, the veil of heaven was parted and the following manifestation took place:
President Young had a vision of Joseph Smlth, who showed him the mountain that we now call Ensign Peak and Joseph said, “Build under the point where the colors fall and you will prosper and have peace.”
Upon reaching the Salt Lake Valley on 24 July 1847, Brigham Young was shown another Vision by the gift of seership just as Joseph Smith has beheld it previously. During this confirmatory vision a “Spirit of Light” rested upon Brigham Young and upon this occasion he saw the future glory of Zion and of Israel.
On July 28, 1847, Brigham Young and seven others ascended what is now called Ensign Peak and hoisted a symbolic banner that represented the Ensign of the ancient Israelite prophecy.
Two days later, Brigham Young crossed The Valley and stood on what is now Temple Square. Upon reaching that spot, the Prophet was shown yet another vision. He later declared:
“I scarcely ever say much about revelations, or visions, but suffice it to say, five years ago last July I was here and saw in the Spirit the Temple not ten feet from where they laid the Chief Corner Stone. I have not inquired of what kind of Temple we should build. Why? Because it was represented before me in vision. I have never looked upon that ground, but the vision of it was there. I see it as plainly as if it were in reality before me.”
DIRECT REVELATION: Brigham Young was shown a vision of the Salt Lake Temple’s structure and he knew that it had a complex of towers that were symbolic of the worker of the Priesthood. In Brigham Young’s Heavenly vision he also saw some of the symbols that he incorporated into the building’s exterior.
The cornerstones of the Salt Lake Temple were laid on April 6, 1853.
Elder Parley P Pratt saw a vision during the cornerstone ceremony that the Prophet Joseph Smlth and many other angelic visitors were standing above the Temple’s Foundation and observing the rites.
Exactly 40 years following Elder Pratt’s vision, during the Salt Lake Temple Dedication, President WILFORD Woodruff revealed that during the services his eyes were allowed to see within the veil. He beheld that Joseph Smith had returned with many others from the Spirit world to witness the dedication of the temple. Among this Heavenly Host he saw the Savior and the Prophet Isaiah.
The Salt Lake Temple stands as literal, Physical reality of Brigham Young’s prophetic mantle and the prophecies he fulfilled.
To deny the ordained leadership of Brigham Young, is to deny the Sun at noon-day.
*Erastus Snow journal entry for April 12, 1893 confirms that the Son of God was with the Saints during the dedication.
Many other Saints also recorded angelic visitations during the Salt Lake Temple Dedication. For references see ”Temple Manifestations” Joseph Heinerman, 1974 pages 125-57.

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