Ongoing Investigation Into Church Finances by IRS? $20 Billion in Taxes Dodged?

[endlessQuestions]

Thanks for the link to the document. I'm reading the document with much interest as I am an internal auditor at a major bank since 14 years. I can already see that this may contain more meat than the usual attempts to harm the institution by a disaffected once member of the church. It was difficult to judge the merits of the accusations solely based on the summary. I'm only on page 13 thus far but there seems to be meat if what is written is true.

Thanks for sharing your informed opinion. I kind of figure that if he worked there until 2019, and if there are penalties for falsely attesting, there’s probably something “there”, but I’m not qualified to say anything more than that.

Time will tell, and then, of course, we always have to factor in the “secret handshake” factor, since our leaders belong to the same secret societies these government goons do.

I never understood why avoiding the appearance of evil was so important.

Now I do. Everything is colored by suspicion once you stop avoiding even the appearance of evil.

[BigT]

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/02 ... tax-fraud/

Same whistleblower that started the SEC action, I believe.

Yes, David is the one who worked for EP while his twin brother Lars made the YouTube video in 2019. I think Lars runs the Widows Mite site, but I’m not positive.

[endlessQuestions]

Just a quick update.

If people are waiting for me to go through this document like I have the others.

It will be a long wait.

The Lord has told me it's time to move on and focus on

the abuse problem

and learning about how we can build Zion

So, if people want to drink this water

They're going to have to go to the well and draw it out themselves.

Feels good, man.

[BigT]

There's no doubt in my mind that this guy is trying to cash in any way he can and he's been trying for several years now.

NO doubt, huh? Do you know the Neilsons?

Well, I do. I watched them and their numerous siblings grow up. Lars left the church while in college, due to conflicts he saw between church doctrine and what he was being taught (a sad thing, if you ask me). If you watch his 2019 YouTube video you can tell he’s not fond of the church.

David backed down after the feces hit the fan. I’m not sure but I believe he began to get the expected pressure to back down from the church, because that’s what they do. After they excommunicated Justin Green of “Who Killed Joseph Smith” fame they contacted people in their kids’ play group and told them they shouldn’t let their kids play with kids of apostates. This was a multi-stake effort. Heavy pressure to back off also came from his in-laws, who are some kind of “big” Mormon family in Utah. I don’t know the details of how he left the church but I can guess why. He wouldn’t back down and his wife left (I’m guessing).

Both brothers are well educated and very smart. I seriously doubt they need the money. Lars may be doing it out of spite for the church but not David. He first told Lars about it because the behavior disgusted him. I’ll bet that’s why he is sticking with the charges; out of righteous indignation and to see the wrong righted.

If they do end up getting some money, good for them. Maybe the church will stop lying and cheating (though I’m not holding my breath).

Best not to say you’ve no doubt about something you’re not sure of, especially when you’re attacking someone’s integrity.

[endlessQuestions]

There's no doubt in my mind that this guy is trying to cash in any way he can and he's been trying for several years now.

NO doubt, huh? Do you know the Neilsons?

Well, I do. I watched them and their numerous siblings grow up. Lars left the church while in college, due to conflicts he saw between church doctrine and what he was being taught (a sad thing, if you ask me). If you watch his 2019 YouTube video you can tell he’s not fond of the church.

David backed down after the feces hit the fan. I’m not sure but I believe he began to get the expected pressure to back down from the church, because that’s what they do. After they excommunicated Justin Green of “Who Killed Joseph Smith” fame they contacted people in their kids’ play group and told them they shouldn’t let their kids play with kids of apostates. This was a multi-stake effort. Heavy pressure to back off also came from his in-laws, who are some kind of “big” Mormon family in Utah. I don’t know the details of how he left the church but I can guess why. He wouldn’t back down and his wife left (I’m guessing).

Both brothers are well educated and very smart. I seriously doubt they need the money. Lars may be doing it out of spite for the church but not David. He first told Lars about it because the behavior disgusted him. I’ll bet that’s why he is sticking with the charges; out of righteous indignation and to see the wrong righted.

If they do end up getting some money, good for them. Maybe the church will stop lying and cheating (though I’m not holding my breath).

Best not to say you’ve no doubt about something you’re not sure of, especially when you’re attacking someone’s integrity.

You are a wealth of information, BigT. Thanks for your contributions - they've been critical in pointing me in the right direction several times over the course of this journey.

[BigT]

You are a wealth of information, BigT. Thanks for your contributions - they've been critical in pointing me in the right direction several times over the course of this journey.

You’re welcome. Glad to help.

[Dusty Wanderer]

If they do end up getting some money, good for them. Maybe the church will stop lying and cheating (though I’m not holding my breath).

In some cases, the only way to get to a man's heart, is to go through his treasure.

[The Red Pill]

If they do end up getting some money, good for them. Maybe the church will stop lying and cheating (though I’m not holding my breath).

In some cases, the only way to get to a man's heart, is to go through his treasure.

This might be just the beginning of the church's woes...

While I disagree with much of what Radio Free Mormon says...he does offer some nuggets of truth from time to time.

Well...he has rightfully pointed out that the church has just opened itself up for potentially MASSIVE class action lawsuits from folks who WOULDN'T have paid tithing had they known the church had billions in the stock market...

....and want it back!!!!!!

Now RFM was a prosecutor and still an active lawyer, so I think he would know the law on this.

In less than 2 minutes...he explains why the church is in deep doo doo.


https://podcastaddict.com/episode/153666403

[HereWeGo]

If they do end up getting some money, good for them. Maybe the church will stop lying and cheating (though I’m not holding my breath).

In some cases, the only way to get to a man's heart, is to go through his treasure.

This might be just the beginning of the church's woes...

While I disagree with much of what Radio Free Mormon says...he does offer some nuggets of truth from time to time.

Well...he has rightfully pointed out that the church has just opened itself up for potentially MASSIVE class action lawsuits from folks who WOULDN'T have paid tithing had they known the church had billions in the stock market...

....and want it back!!!!!!

Now RFM was a prosecutor and still an active lawyer, so I think he would know the law on this.

In less than 2 minutes...he explains why the church is in deep doo doo.


https://podcastaddict.com/episode/153666403

WOW. Good find.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

If they do end up getting some money, good for them. Maybe the church will stop lying and cheating (though I’m not holding my breath).

In some cases, the only way to get to a man's heart, is to go through his treasure.

This might be just the beginning of the church's woes...

While I disagree with much of what Radio Free Mormon says...he does offer some nuggets of truth from time to time.

Well...he has rightfully pointed out that the church has just opened itself up for potentially MASSIVE class action lawsuits from folks who WOULDN'T have paid tithing had they known the church had billions in the stock market...

....and want it back!!!!!!

Now RFM was a prosecutor and still an active lawyer, so I think he would know the law on this.

In less than 2 minutes...he explains why the church is in deep doo doo.


https://podcastaddict.com/episode/153666403

Wow, serious doo doo

[Tall.Traveler]

I don't know about the substance of Nielsen's allegations, but it's important to point out that whistleblowers can receive from 15% to 30% of any amounts that the government collects. There's no doubt in my mind that this guy is trying to cash in any way he can and he's been trying for several years now.

Well, he's 1-0 on the SEC allegations.

Innocent until proven guilty, of course.

But your point is well taken.

Are you suggesting we should ignore the document?

I think the tax allegations are very much a stretch and reflective of a desperate attempt to try to make money, but the latest news does not help EP's credibility.

I know this might be surprising, but I sure hope you're right about the first part.

And I *know* you're right about the second part.

This guy worked there until 2019 - do you know what the PENALTIES are for lying, if he is indeed caught trying to make a quick buck?

And out of curiosity, are you qualified to make your assertion regarding it being a "desparate attempt"? Just curious, because this stuff is all Greek to me.

I'm basing my conclusions on just my own attempt to logically look at the situation. I haven't read the memo. All I know is what I've read in the news, but it seems that his primary arguments of substance are that EP is investing lots of money in for-profit businesses and that EP is not spending any of its money on charitable purposes.

With that in mind, every non-profit that manages reserve funds will invest those funds in for-profit businesses. It could be anything from a shopping mall to Apple stock. That's the very definition of investing. If you want a return on your investment, it needs to be in something that can generate a profit. So the fact that the Church in investing in for-profit businesses and projects does not seem to violate the rules of non-profits.

In addition, the allegation that EP does not use any of its money for charitable purposes seems untrue. I don't know how EP and the Church have their accounts set up, or if that even matters, but EP manages the money of the Church from what I understand, and clearly the Church spends lots of money on its religious (charitable) purposes. From building churches and temples, to humanitarian aid, to supporting missionary work, the argument that EP/the Church is not spending any money on charitable purposes seems like a loser to me.

As far as using the word "desperate", I don't know Mr. Nielsen or have any idea what he is thinking, but when I still see large memos and lawyers involved after a lot of time has passed, engaging in a public relations battle, trying to still convince someone (the IRS?, the U.S. Senate?, the public?, members of the Church?) of arguments that seem like losers to me (granted from a distance), it just seems a little desperate. People, including lawyers, want to get paid.

I could be wrong, but this is just my 2 cents.

[endlessQuestions]

Well, he's 1-0 on the SEC allegations.

Innocent until proven guilty, of course.

But your point is well taken.

Are you suggesting we should ignore the document?

I think the tax allegations are very much a stretch and reflective of a desperate attempt to try to make money, but the latest news does not help EP's credibility.

I know this might be surprising, but I sure hope you're right about the first part.

And I *know* you're right about the second part.

This guy worked there until 2019 - do you know what the PENALTIES are for lying, if he is indeed caught trying to make a quick buck?

And out of curiosity, are you qualified to make your assertion regarding it being a "desparate attempt"? Just curious, because this stuff is all Greek to me.

I'm basing my conclusions on just my own attempt to logically look at the situation. I haven't read the memo. All I know is what I've read in the news, but it seems that his primary arguments of substance are that EP is investing lots of money in for-profit businesses and that EP is not spending any of its money on charitable purposes.

With that in mind, every non-profit that manages reserve funds will invest those funds in for-profit businesses. It could be anything from a shopping mall to Apple stock. That's the very definition of investing. If you want a return on your investment, it needs to be in something that can generate a profit. So the fact that the Church in investing in for-profit businesses and projects does not seem to violate the rules of non-profits.

In addition, the allegation that EP does not use any of its money for charitable purposes seems untrue. I don't know how EP and the Church have their accounts set up, or if that even matters, but EP manages the money of the Church from what I understand, and clearly the Church spends lots of money on its religious (charitable) purposes. From building churches and temples, to humanitarian aid, to supporting missionary work, the argument that EP/the Church is not spending any money on charitable purposes seems like a loser to me.

As far as using the word "desperate", I don't know Mr. Nielsen or have any idea what he is thinking, but when I still see large memos and lawyers involved after a lot of time has passed, engaging in a public relations battle, trying to still convince someone (the IRS?, the U.S. Senate?, the public?, members of the Church?) of arguments that seem like losers to me (granted from a distance), it just seems a little desperate. People, including lawyers, want to get paid.

I could be wrong, but this is just my 2 cents.

Thank for explaining your thought process bit.

May I ask a question?

Is it really "logical" to build an argument without reading the primary source documents?

You don't have to answer that if you don't want to, but I'm genuinely curious about your thought process.

[Ebenezer]

It seems that 99% of the people out there saying some variation of "the church did nothing wrong" have not read the memo.

Cwic media (Greg Matsen) spent 45 minutes taking about the fines and never mentioned or analyzed the actual SEC finding.

This bugs me. There's so much spin that has little to do with the undeniable fact about this case: The first presidency lied to the SEC as a matter of policy.

Why? So you and me wouldn't know they were spending tithing dollars (also listed in the document) in the stock market.

The SEC document also states that people at EPA raised concerns about what they were being told to do and the direction given them was to clone 12 more fake LLCs. In other words, the FP and PB decided to make even more subordinates lie for them. 2 of those patsies resigned over the issue and the FP just found two other yes-men at EPA to sign off on the scam.

Presidents Hinckley, Monson, and Nelson, along with each of their counselors, and each member of the presiding bishoprics since 1998 are proven liars.

The SEC document, which the church endorsed, is that proof.

No wonder the "all is well" crowd won't read it.

[SunriseBoy]

The figure of 46Billion was kicked around; if people dug just a fraction deeper, there's another 70Billion or so squirrelled away.
And...LOL, all of this while the GA's urge the people in the favelas in Rio and Sao Paulo, and the folks on, or near Smokey Mountain, outside of Manilla, to pay their tithing.
The self righteous conceit of this crew is insufferable. Hence, I had my name removed from the records of the church (after 50 years) records.
I have a firm testimony of the Lord Jesus, and his atoning sacrifice. And that Joseph Smith was a brilliant prophet in the face of the corruption inside, and outside of the the church. The gospel died on the same day Joseph Smith did.
The church ought to have been called the Church of Brigham Young!

[Fred]

If they do end up getting some money, good for them. Maybe the church will stop lying and cheating (though I’m not holding my breath).

In some cases, the only way to get to a man's heart, is to go through his treasure.

This might be just the beginning of the church's woes...

While I disagree with much of what Radio Free Mormon says...he does offer some nuggets of truth from time to time.

Well...he has rightfully pointed out that the church has just opened itself up for potentially MASSIVE class action lawsuits from folks who WOULDN'T have paid tithing had they known the church had billions in the stock market...

....and want it back!!!!!!

Now RFM was a prosecutor and still an active lawyer, so I think he would know the law on this.

In less than 2 minutes...he explains why the church is in deep doo doo.


https://podcastaddict.com/episode/153666403

Wow, serious doo doo

And all they had to do to avoid it was be honest. It probably never occurred to them. Had they helped homeless women with children, they would have been legitimate and the expenses were tax deductible. Now, if they get fined or lose their tax exempt status, they still did not help the homeless women with children.

[blitzinstripes]

I don't know about the substance of Nielsen's allegations, but it's important to point out that whistleblowers can receive from 15% to 30% of any amounts that the government collects. There's no doubt in my mind that this guy is trying to cash in any way he can and he's been trying for several years now.

I couldn't care less about the guy's motives. Truth is truth.

[Hogmeister]

Well, he's 1-0 on the SEC allegations.

Innocent until proven guilty, of course.

But your point is well taken.

Are you suggesting we should ignore the document?

I think the tax allegations are very much a stretch and reflective of a desperate attempt to try to make money, but the latest news does not help EP's credibility.

I know this might be surprising, but I sure hope you're right about the first part.

And I *know* you're right about the second part.

This guy worked there until 2019 - do you know what the PENALTIES are for lying, if he is indeed caught trying to make a quick buck?

And out of curiosity, are you qualified to make your assertion regarding it being a "desparate attempt"? Just curious, because this stuff is all Greek to me.

I'm basing my conclusions on just my own attempt to logically look at the situation. I haven't read the memo. All I know is what I've read in the news, but it seems that his primary arguments of substance are that EP is investing lots of money in for-profit businesses and that EP is not spending any of its money on charitable purposes.

With that in mind, every non-profit that manages reserve funds will invest those funds in for-profit businesses. It could be anything from a shopping mall to Apple stock. That's the very definition of investing. If you want a return on your investment, it needs to be in something that can generate a profit. So the fact that the Church in investing in for-profit businesses and projects does not seem to violate the rules of non-profits.

In addition, the allegation that EP does not use any of its money for charitable purposes seems untrue. I don't know how EP and the Church have their accounts set up, or if that even matters, but EP manages the money of the Church from what I understand, and clearly the Church spends lots of money on its religious (charitable) purposes. From building churches and temples, to humanitarian aid, to supporting missionary work, the argument that EP/the Church is not spending any money on charitable purposes seems like a loser to me.

As far as using the word "desperate", I don't know Mr. Nielsen or have any idea what he is thinking, but when I still see large memos and lawyers involved after a lot of time has passed, engaging in a public relations battle, trying to still convince someone (the IRS?, the U.S. Senate?, the public?, members of the Church?) of arguments that seem like losers to me (granted from a distance), it just seems a little desperate. People, including lawyers, want to get paid.

I could be wrong, but this is just my 2 cents.

If you read the memo it should clear things up. Your arguments are the same reflex arguments that I had from reading just the summary. But if you read in more detail we can see that there is more to it.

The church owns many for-profit companies and pays income tax from these businesses even though the church itself is tax exempt as a non-profit org. There is apparently very little if anything that makes the business of EPA unique in that it should fall under the church's tax exempt status while other church owned businesses do not. You could argue that EPA should be viewed like a big bank account that the church did not need to draw money from since 1997 when it was setup. However it is not setup as a passive interest earning bank account. EPA is a business that is setup to make profits from professional business decisions and has made a lot of untaxed profits since 1997. In making profits it actually competes with other for-profit business in the same industry. But has due to not paying tax actually enjoyed a competitive advantage (liquidity management) over its competition in securing attractive investment deals. I am sure the church lawyers will try to make the connection between EPA and the church org much tighter than that between the church and it's other for-profit businesses. We will see if that will be successful.

In addition, If the memo is correct EPA has been very poorly run with regards to independent control functions, especially considering its size, as a financial business with very little internal and external control over its activities.

[Tall.Traveler]

I think the tax allegations are very much a stretch and reflective of a desperate attempt to try to make money, but the latest news does not help EP's credibility.

I know this might be surprising, but I sure hope you're right about the first part.

And I *know* you're right about the second part.

This guy worked there until 2019 - do you know what the PENALTIES are for lying, if he is indeed caught trying to make a quick buck?

And out of curiosity, are you qualified to make your assertion regarding it being a "desparate attempt"? Just curious, because this stuff is all Greek to me.

I'm basing my conclusions on just my own attempt to logically look at the situation. I haven't read the memo. All I know is what I've read in the news, but it seems that his primary arguments of substance are that EP is investing lots of money in for-profit businesses and that EP is not spending any of its money on charitable purposes.

With that in mind, every non-profit that manages reserve funds will invest those funds in for-profit businesses. It could be anything from a shopping mall to Apple stock. That's the very definition of investing. If you want a return on your investment, it needs to be in something that can generate a profit. So the fact that the Church in investing in for-profit businesses and projects does not seem to violate the rules of non-profits.

In addition, the allegation that EP does not use any of its money for charitable purposes seems untrue. I don't know how EP and the Church have their accounts set up, or if that even matters, but EP manages the money of the Church from what I understand, and clearly the Church spends lots of money on its religious (charitable) purposes. From building churches and temples, to humanitarian aid, to supporting missionary work, the argument that EP/the Church is not spending any money on charitable purposes seems like a loser to me.

As far as using the word "desperate", I don't know Mr. Nielsen or have any idea what he is thinking, but when I still see large memos and lawyers involved after a lot of time has passed, engaging in a public relations battle, trying to still convince someone (the IRS?, the U.S. Senate?, the public?, members of the Church?) of arguments that seem like losers to me (granted from a distance), it just seems a little desperate. People, including lawyers, want to get paid.

I could be wrong, but this is just my 2 cents.

If you read the memo it should clear things up. Your arguments are the same reflex arguments that I had from reading just the summary. But if you read in more detail we can see that there is more to it.

The church owns many for-profit companies and pays income tax from these businesses even though the church itself is tax exempt as a non-profit org. There is apparently very little if anything that makes the business of EPA unique in that it should fall under the church's tax exempt status while other church owned businesses do not. You could argue that EPA should be viewed like a big bank account that the church did not need to draw money from since 1997 when it was setup. However it is not setup as a passive interest earning bank account. EPA is a business that is setup to make profits from professional business decisions and has made a lot of untaxed profits since 1997. In making profits it actually competes with other for-profit business in the same industry. But has due to not paying tax actually enjoyed a competitive advantage (liquidity management) over its competition in securing attractive investment deals. I am sure the church lawyers will try to make the connection between EPA and the church org much tighter than that between the church and it's other for-profit businesses. We will see if that will be successful.

In addition, If the memo is correct EPA has been very poorly run with regards to independent control functions, especially considering its size, as a financial business with very little internal and external control over its activities.

How is this different from Harvard University's endowment?

[BringerOfJoy]

I've mentioned this before here, but if there is one thing (and there aren't many these days) that I would defend the church and Ensign Peak on, it is the bail-out of Beneficial Life Insurance. It would have been far more dishonest to NOT do it. I would imagine that they made the same point I am going to make in their SEC hearing.

The church was between a rock and a hard place with Beneficial. It was one of those businesses that carried over from pioneer days when the church was the only game in town, and so businesses like insurance, a mercantile (ZCMI) and a bank (Zion's) made sense. Later on it didn't make sense so they sold off some of those early businesses. BUT the church had always stood behind Beneficial (I think they may have bailed them out during the depression also?). There was no good place in time to sell it because they would not have been able to force any buyer to honor the same obligations they had been made to the policy purchaser at the time that they had purchased with Beneficial. Because policy holders bought with the expectation that the church was there to back it up if times got hard again. How do you tell widows, widowers, and kids that, "Sorry--we no longer have the funds to pay out for the loss of your father or mother or spouse even though THEY faithfully paid into their policies--in some cases for many years." Why would anyone argue that they shouldn't under the circumstances, especially the money was just sitting there unused in Ensign Peak. And to not do so would also have been a public relations nightmare. Especially since--during Beneficial's expansionist years in the 80's--they hired some non-LDS salesmen who (of course) sold policies to non-LDS purchasers. It was probably a smart thing to reign in the expansion when they did, given how things turned out.

The mall was a whole different matter, and the pressuring of tithe-paying from folks in third world countries that couldn't afford to properly feed their families while these amounts of funds were compounding in SLC accounts is pretty unconscionable.

[HereWeGo]

I've mentioned this before here, but if there is one thing (and there aren't many these days) that I would defend the church and Ensign Peak on, it is the bail-out of Beneficial Life Insurance. It would have been far more dishonest to NOT do it. I would imagine that they made the same point I am going to make in their SEC hearing.

The church was between a rock and a hard place with Beneficial. It was one of those businesses that carried over from pioneer days when the church was the only game in town, and so businesses like insurance, a mercantile (ZCMI) and a bank (Zion's) made sense. Later on it didn't make sense so they sold off some of those early businesses. BUT the church had always stood behind Beneficial (I think they may have bailed them out during the depression also?). There was no good place in time to sell it because they would not have been able to force any buyer to honor the same obligations they had been made to the policy purchaser at the time that they had purchased with Beneficial. Because policy holders bought with the expectation that the church was there to back it up if times got hard again. How do you tell widows, widowers, and kids that, "Sorry--we no longer have the funds to pay out for the loss of your father or mother or spouse even though THEY faithfully paid into their policies--in some cases for many years." Why would anyone argue that they shouldn't under the circumstances, especially the money was just sitting there unused in Ensign Peak. And to not do so would also have been a public relations nightmare. Especially since--during Beneficial's expansionist years in the 80's--they hired some non-LDS salesmen who (of course) sold policies to non-LDS purchasers. It was probably a smart thing to reign in the expansion when they did, given how things turned out.

The mall was a whole different matter, and the pressuring of tithe-paying from folks in third world countries that couldn't afford to properly feed their families while these amounts of funds were compounding in SLC accounts is pretty unconscionable.

I agree. It was good to bail out their failing insurance company. But it should have been done without using sacred funds. They should have sold off some property, be above board about it and pay the proper taxes.

[Christianlee]

I am completely against taxing businesses like LDS Inc. There are problems with a Fair Tax, but it may be the only system which can salvage our freedom from government overreach.

[InfoWarrior82]

If they do end up getting some money, good for them. Maybe the church will stop lying and cheating (though I’m not holding my breath).

In some cases, the only way to get to a man's heart, is to go through his treasure.

This might be just the beginning of the church's woes...

While I disagree with much of what Radio Free Mormon says...he does offer some nuggets of truth from time to time.

Well...he has rightfully pointed out that the church has just opened itself up for potentially MASSIVE class action lawsuits from folks who WOULDN'T have paid tithing had they known the church had billions in the stock market...

....and want it back!!!!!!

Now RFM was a prosecutor and still an active lawyer, so I think he would know the law on this.

In less than 2 minutes...he explains why the church is in deep doo doo.


https://podcastaddict.com/episode/153666403

What do you think will happen? Do you expect to see a class action lawsuit from members demanding their tithing money back?

[Hogmeister]

Why only 5 MUSD in fines?

15 U.S.C. § 78ff
(a) Willful violations; false and misleading statements
Any person who willfully violates any provision of this chapter (other than section 78dd-1 of this title), or any tule or regulation thereunder the violation of which is made unlawful or the observance of which is required under the terms of this chapter, or any person who willfully and knowingly makes, or causes to be made, any statement in any application, report, or document required to be filed under this chapter or any rule or regulation thereunder or any undertaking contained in a registration statement as provided in subsection (d) of section 780 of this title, or by any self-regulatory organization in connection with an application for membership or participation therein or to become associated with a member thereof which statement was false or misleading with respect to any material fact, shall upon conviction be fined not more than $5,000,000, or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, except that when such person is a person other than a natural person, a fine not exceeding $25,000,000 may be imposed; but no person shall be subject to imprisonment under this section for the violation of any rule or regulation if he proves that he had no knowledge of such rule or regulation. (Emphasis supplied)

[HVDC]

If they do end up getting some money, good for them. Maybe the church will stop lying and cheating (though I’m not holding my breath).

In some cases, the only way to get to a man's heart, is to go through his treasure.

This might be just the beginning of the church's woes...

While I disagree with much of what Radio Free Mormon says...he does offer some nuggets of truth from time to time.

Well...he has rightfully pointed out that the church has just opened itself up for potentially MASSIVE class action lawsuits from folks who WOULDN'T have paid tithing had they known the church had billions in the stock market...

....and want it back!!!!!!

Now RFM was a prosecutor and still an active lawyer, so I think he would know the law on this.

In less than 2 minutes...he explains why the church is in deep doo doo.


https://podcastaddict.com/episode/153666403

What do you think will happen? Do you expect to see a class action lawsuit from members demanding their tithing money back?

I would join in such a lawsuit.

When it comes to money.

I follow the profits.

Sir H

[InfoWarrior82]

Why only 5 MUSD in fines?

15 U.S.C. § 78ff
(a) Willful violations; false and misleading statements
Any person who willfully violates any provision of this chapter (other than section 78dd-1 of this title), or any tule or regulation thereunder the violation of which is made unlawful or the observance of which is required under the terms of this chapter, or any person who willfully and knowingly makes, or causes to be made, any statement in any application, report, or document required to be filed under this chapter or any rule or regulation thereunder or any undertaking contained in a registration statement as provided in subsection (d) of section 780 of this title, or by any self-regulatory organization in connection with an application for membership or participation therein or to become associated with a member thereof which statement was false or misleading with respect to any material fact, shall upon conviction be fined not more than $5,000,000, or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, except that when such person is a person other than a natural person, a fine not exceeding $25,000,000 may be imposed; but no person shall be subject to imprisonment under this section for the violation of any rule or regulation if he proves that he had no knowledge of such rule or regulation. (Emphasis supplied)

So they're leaving the door open for arrests?