The Church Playing shell games with your tithing

[Reluctant Watchman]

The church is the Great and Spacious building with no foundation. They ruined the foundation brought forth by Joseph. They literally build a great and spacious building upon the backs of the poor with ill-gotten gain. Many of us are striving to follow the iron rod, which is the purity of the word as witnessed by the Spirit. You think these men speak for God when they are speaking blasphemes from their Rameuptoms. I think you can find them scattered all throughout the G&S building.

If those are your perceptions, then putting myself in your place for a moment, if I may, I can comprehend why, and I can put myself in your shoes in terms of imagination, with the exception of actually experiencing what you have experienced first hand. I don't know why I would, because my heart doesn't go there. I don't feel the need or the desire, or the fire in my bones to fight the fight that you fight. You see, Kerry Shirts, who presents a lot on Mormonism Live, is a friend of mine, and Paul Osborne used to be a friend of mine. I presented at Sunstone with Kerry in the same presentation notwithstanding he is now in some ways (understandably) a bitter ex-Member of the Church. For a number of years, I swam in the depths of the Dr. Shades DiscussMormonism/MormonDiscussions message board. I know some of these people. Some of these people are my friends, even though some of those friendships have ended, like with my former associate in Book of Abraham studies, Paul Osborne. It isn't hard to see how they think, because I fully comprehend how they think. I think I fully comprehend the reasons for their leaving. Nothing separates me from them in terms of knowledge and experience about where they "hang out" on the Internet, with the exception of making the choice to go over to their side. So, I have been around the block. I comprehend to its core Internet Mormonism and many of its factions, to include those movements that are against it. So, when I say that I understand you, and somewhat empathize without sympathizing, better than almost 99% of other TBMs because of the crowd I have been around for so many years. Nevertheless, when I say I can empathize without sympathizing, I mean what I say. Not only do I not find sympathy. I have no patience for the attitude in the sense that, although it has a certain rationality, I do not find it rational, and I think all of you know better in the core of your gut. In fact, I know you do, because I know that if I chose as you, I know I would have no excuse, because I would be making the choice with full knowledge of what is clearly and plainly outlined for me in plain language in terms of what is expected of me. I would have full knowledge of that, and I know you all have full knowledge of that. So, I say, you are all making the choice with full knowledge of what is already expected of you. So it is no mystery to you what I am saying. You know full well what you have turned against, those of you that have. You know full well of what you have chosen. Therefore, in a sense, it is willful, open rebellion against what you know, and I have no patience for it. I can empathize in the sense that all of you are real people, who are going through real suffering. I have no patience, in the sense that I find no excuse for the behavior, when your choices are so clear. I mean, I get it that you have used your agency to choose it. But when people make themselves out to be a "victim" of circumstance, yes it is true that some have suffered abuse. But all have had a choice to make. And some have made one choice, while others have made another. Nobody is "better" than anybody in terms of that if any of us do not repent, we all end up in a not so great place. We are all reliant on the same Savior. I just hope a few heed my words. I know some have in the past, and I'm grateful to them that they took my voice seriously. If I can be an agent in just one of you turning away from what you are doing, then maybe it will have been worth it. But I can only take so much sometimes, so I have left this place in the past.

I’m not the kind of person who would make such a bold claim that I know how someone else feels to to know what they are thinking. Can I discern? Yes. Can I see patterns of deception? yes.

BTW, I’m not a victim, that’s why I left the church. To stay would be continuing the abuse.

What we need to discuss here is what tithing actually should be, how it’s collected and how it’s spent. That’s the corruption I see in the church.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

I am sure they said great things about Moses when Moses took them from Egypt, where they were cosily eating bread in their slavery.

The vaccine episode: I am NOT VACCINATED. I repeat, NOT VACCINATED. But unless one shows me that the vaccine impairs conscience and alters human behaviour, like narcotics or alcohol, for the OPINION of a quorum of the Church (or event the three quora) --- even when wrong --- I give no rodents pubic hair of attention.

Joseph Smith started a bank that failed. Does that make him less of a prophet?

It's easy to start criticising the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They do make mistakes enough, have imbecile opinions sometimes, get a bit cocky about their position, and sometimes they should keep their mouth shout. Just like you and me. We're humans. But, as I get to say in Portuguese, 'é para o lado que durmo melhor' (for all Americans who normally do no other language than English, and have a mediocre proficiency at the latter, it is something like 'Je m'en fiche!' or 'Es ist mir völlig egal!'). I do not care about the faults of others, being myself full of faults. You think Mr. President of the Church is a bit vain? You should have had the kind of people I had as church leaders, some outright stealing form the Church and committing adultery more or less openly!

I concede that, once you start criticising, a sort of wind will keep you going. Of course, that 'wind' --- let's call it that --- will have you boosted with an inflated sense of perception. Then you know better than anyone, and all others are imbeciles. There is a reward in itself, the brain becomes full of dopamine. What a satisfaction! The wind will have you think that you think for yourself, when you are really think what you think you think it came from your thoughts, and yet it was never yours to think. Those thoughts revisit over and over every fowl stench of human jealousy and self-aggrandisement that loses people, first with linen strings, later with the sturdiest ropes.

One thing I know: be thankful to the Lord that you people were not born during the time of Christ. Most of you would shout 'Barrabas' with full lungs.

Maybe you haven't read Deuteronomy 18:20-22. The Lord through Moses gave us a method to know if a prophet is speaking for Him. We simply look to see if what they said comes to pass. What the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve said about the Covid-19 vaccines certainly did not come to pass. The Covid-19 vaccines aren't safe and they certainly aren't effective. Thus, the Lord will destroy them for speaking presumptuously and the Lord also commands us to not fear them (treat them as his prophets).

You're right about this: "will have you boosted with an inflated sense of perception. Then you know better than anyone, and all others are imbeciles." Everyone (all of us) everywhere should be humble enough to admit that they could be wrong. That they could have fallen for some sort of deception. Deception is nothing more than believing something to be true when it is, in fact, false. I think we can all remember a time when we fell into that category. Stay humble. Remember that you could be deceived and representing something to be true when it is, in fact, false. Hubris is not the friend of truth.

[edgoble123]

I’m not the kind of person who would make such a bold claim that I know how someone else feels to to know what they are thinking. Can I discern? Yes. Can I see patterns of deception? yes.

BTW, I’m not a victim, that’s why I left the church. To stay would be continuing the abuse.

What we need to discuss here is what tithing actually should be, how it’s collected and how it’s spent. That’s the corruption I see in the church.

Well, time will tell in the next life if you made a wise choice by leaving. We shall see.

Maybe you could create a new thread about tithing. And an item that could be talked about is the fact that you are not speaking in terms of simple obedience to tithing. You are speaking about how your rationalize avoidance of obedience by making an excuse to say that those with the keys do not have the right to impose how they see to require the Church to pay tithing. You are making the excuse to say, well, this was the way that others once upon a time chose to require those in the Church to pay, based on their understanding of the scriptures at the time. In other words, you might be right about a historic way tithing was paid, according to a certain historic interpretation of the way other leaders of the church once interpreted it and laid it out in policy at the time. You will never be excused from or be able to get around from the fact that simple obedience is required to the way it is done now, by those in authority now.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I’m not the kind of person who would make such a bold claim that I know how someone else feels to to know what they are thinking. Can I discern? Yes. Can I see patterns of deception? yes.

BTW, I’m not a victim, that’s why I left the church. To stay would be continuing the abuse.

What we need to discuss here is what tithing actually should be, how it’s collected and how it’s spent. That’s the corruption I see in the church.

Well, time will tell in the next life if you made a wise choice by leaving. We shall see.

Maybe you could create a new thread about tithing. And an item that could be talked about is the fact that you are not speaking in terms of simple obedience to tithing. You are speaking about how your rationalize avoidance of obedience by making an excuse to say that those with the keys do not have the right to impose how they see to require the Church to pay tithing. You are making the excuse to say, well, this was the way that others once upon a time chose to require those in the Church to pay, based on their understanding of the scriptures at the time. In other words, you might be right about a historic way tithing was paid, according to a certain historic interpretation of the way other leaders of the church once interpreted it and laid it out in policy at the time. You will never be excused from or be able to get around from the fact that simple obedience is required to the way it is done now, by those in authority now.

We’ve had lots of tithing threads on the forum. Lots. Here’s one I started: viewtopic.php?t=63856

I’m not making any excuses. What I’ve shared I believe to be true. And your last statement… I strongly disagree with. Like I’ve repeatedly said, he church will die on the hill (ok, the great and spacious building) of keys and authority. They’ll damn themselves in their own festering pool of pride. (Mmmmm, that sounds yummy)

[edgoble123]

We’ve had lots of tithing threads on the forum. Lots. Here’s one I started: viewtopic.php?t=63856

I’m not making any excuses. What I’ve shared I believe to be true. And your last statement… I strongly disagree with. Like I’ve repeatedly said, he church will die on the hill (ok, the great and spacious building) of keys and authority. They’ll damn themselves in their own festering pool of pride. (Mmmmm, that sounds yummy)

One definition of pride is that those in the Great and Spacious were in the air, identified as the pride of the world.
Only those of that side were the ones is pointing fingers at the other and having a number of fingers on the hand pointing back. The only side of that description is those finding fault with the church, while the church says nothing, like those who "heeded them not."

[spiritMan]

I’m not the kind of person who would make such a bold claim that I know how someone else feels to to know what they are thinking. Can I discern? Yes. Can I see patterns of deception? yes.

BTW, I’m not a victim, that’s why I left the church. To stay would be continuing the abuse.

What we need to discuss here is what tithing actually should be, how it’s collected and how it’s spent. That’s the corruption I see in the church.

Well, time will tell in the next life if you made a wise choice by leaving. We shall see.

Maybe you could create a new thread about tithing. And an item that could be talked about is the fact that you are not speaking in terms of simple obedience to tithing. You are speaking about how your rationalize avoidance of obedience by making an excuse to say that those with the keys do not have the right to impose how they see to require the Church to pay tithing. You are making the excuse to say, well, this was the way that others once upon a time chose to require those in the Church to pay, based on their understanding of the scriptures at the time. In other words, you might be right about a historic way tithing was paid, according to a certain historic interpretation of the way other leaders of the church once interpreted it and laid it out in policy at the time. You will never be excused from or be able to get around from the fact that simple obedience is required to the way it is done now, by those in authority now.

" You will never be excused from or be able to get around from the fact that simple obedience is required to the way it is done now, by those in authority now."

And there-in lies the problem. The only thing that matters is OBEY, OBEY, OBEY. It's extreme authoritarianism not authoritative.
It's a completely distorted view of authority and hierarchy; it's abusive. There is no recognition that the Head has an OBLIGATION to pay attention to and give boons to the Members.

It's really simple to understand this.
A Drill Sergeant is tasked with whipping recruits into shape. That's fine, the recruits know it and the DS knows it. So the DS tells the recruits to run 10 miles a day up a hill. Okay the recruits will do it . . .even if they complain b/c they know the DS has their best interest at heart. Now a corrupt, wicked DS tells the recruits to run 50 miles a day, every day up a hill.
The recruits tell him to go to @#$. Then the DS tells the recruits, you must obey me if you don't obey me, you are damned to hell. The DS simply becomes a wicked tyrant.

There is a push/pull between Head and Members. At some point OBEY, OBEY, OBEY regardless of anything becomes spiritual abuse and spiritual tyranny. The fact that you don't recognize this means you in your heart are either extremely spiritually immature or a tyrant.

[Reluctant Watchman]

We’ve had lots of tithing threads on the forum. Lots. Here’s one I started: viewtopic.php?t=63856

I’m not making any excuses. What I’ve shared I believe to be true. And your last statement… I strongly disagree with. Like I’ve repeatedly said, he church will die on the hill (ok, the great and spacious building) of keys and authority. They’ll damn themselves in their own festering pool of pride. (Mmmmm, that sounds yummy)

One definition of pride is that those in the Great and Spacious were in the air, identified as the pride of the world.
Only those of that side were the ones is pointing fingers at the other and having a number of fingers on the hand pointing back. The only side of that description is those finding fault with the church, while the church says nothing, like those who "heeded them not."

It wasn’t finding fault with the church. Lehi wasn’t the church. Lehi was about truth and the word of God. There’s a big difference.

Moroni had a few words to say about the prideful LDS church, particularly about us today, now.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

[francisco.colaco]

Then again... maybe not!

You'd have to deny Brigham Young was a prophet to say the Church has fallen. Or to say Brigham Young was not speaking as a prophet when he said what he said about the Church not falling. On the pulpit. Several times.

But then you'd have to concede that Russel M. Nelson does not have the gift of omniscience. He is just a good doctor that was, who had an opinion that proved to be wrong, not unlike the opinion of many that dedicate themselves to the physical sciences.

Right this week, I read that dark matter and dark energy, until now object of consensus in cosmology, are being pot into question. Man, I loved dark matter. So fit for the formulae....

Like I’ve repeatedly said, he church will die on the hill (ok, the great and spacious building) of keys and authority. They’ll damn themselves in their own festering pool of pride. (Mmmmm, that sounds yummy)

[Reluctant Watchman]

Then again... maybe not!

You'd have to deny Brigham Young was a prophet to say the Church has fallen. Or to say Brigham Young was not speaking as a prophet when he said what he said about the Church not falling. On the pulpit. Several times.

But then you'd have to concede that Russel M. Nelson does not have the gift of omniscience. He is just a good doctor that was, who had an opinion that proved to be wrong, not unlike the opinion of many that dedicate themselves to the physical sciences.

Right this week, I read that dark matter and dark energy, until now object of consensus in cosmology, are being pot into question. Man, I loved dark matter. So fit for the formulae....

Like I’ve repeatedly said, he church will die on the hill (ok, the great and spacious building) of keys and authority. They’ll damn themselves in their own festering pool of pride. (Mmmmm, that sounds yummy)

I think Brigham and Nelson are murderers… so yeah, I don’t put much stock into what they’ve said.

BTW, to even suggest that Nelson is omniscient is placing attributes of Deity upon man. You have made yourself your very own false god. You have broken the first commandment. Please repent. Seriously, I mean that with all my heart.

[Lizzy60]

Do you really believe Russell M Nelson has the gift of omniscience? I have never heard anyone, including President Nelson himself, make that claim.

Then again... maybe not!

You'd have to deny Brigham Young was a prophet to say the Church has fallen. Or to say Brigham Young was not speaking as a prophet when he said what he said about the Church not falling. On the pulpit. Several times.

But then you'd have to concede that Russel M. Nelson does not have the gift of omniscience. He is just a good doctor that was, who had an opinion that proved to be wrong, not unlike the opinion of many that dedicate themselves to the physical sciences.

Right this week, I read that dark matter and dark energy, until now object of consensus in cosmology, are being pot into question. Man, I loved dark matter. So fit for the formulae....

Like I’ve repeatedly said, he church will die on the hill (ok, the great and spacious building) of keys and authority. They’ll damn themselves in their own festering pool of pride. (Mmmmm, that sounds yummy)

[francisco.colaco]

Come on, read again what I wrote. ...

I'm rooting for you.

I think Brigham and Nelson are murderers… so yeah, I don’t put much stock into what they’ve said.

BTW, to even suggest that Nelson is omniscient is placing attributes of Deity upon man. You have made yourself your very own false god. You have broken the first commandment. Please repent. Seriously, I mean that with all my heart.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Come on, read again what I wrote. You do not seem to be a complete moron, so I know you can get the meaning on a second reading.

I'm rooting for you.

I think Brigham and Nelson are murderers… so yeah, I don’t put much stock into what they’ve said.

BTW, to even suggest that Nelson is omniscient is placing attributes of Deity upon man. You have made yourself your very own false god. You have broken the first commandment. Please repent. Seriously, I mean that with all my heart.

Ah, I missed that one little word. I think he's far more than just a man who hasn't practiced medicine for 40 years, he has aligned himself and the church with the whore of Babylon.

[francisco.colaco]

Did I say that, or is the school in Utah not teaching proper reasoning for a few decades?

You guys sure need more classical studies.

Do you really believe Russell M Nelson has the gift of omniscience? I have never heard anyone, including President Nelson himself, make that claim.

[edgoble123]

There is a push/pull between Head and Members. At some point OBEY, OBEY, OBEY regardless of anything becomes spiritual abuse and spiritual tyranny. The fact that you don't recognize this means you in your heart are either extremely spiritually immature or a tyrant.

Let's just say that bringing what you think is in my heart and personally judging me in this manner to suggest that I am spiritually immature ought to get you dinged, and get your hand slapped, so I have reported the message. I would dare say you certainly do not have the slightest comprehension of what is and is not spiritually immature.

Lets see how our beloved creator (of the forum) or a moderator chooses to deal with that one.

[spiritMan]

There is a push/pull between Head and Members. At some point OBEY, OBEY, OBEY regardless of anything becomes spiritual abuse and spiritual tyranny. The fact that you don't recognize this means you in your heart are either extremely spiritually immature or a tyrant.

Let's just say that bringing what you think is in my heart and personally judging me in this manner to suggest that I am spiritually immature ought to get you dinged, and get your hand slapped, so I have reported the message. I would dare say you certainly do not have the slightest comprehension of what is and is not spiritually immature.

Lets see how our beloved creator (of the forum) or a moderator chooses to deal with that one.

touchy, touchy . . .

[edgoble123]

And there-in lies the problem. The only thing that matters is OBEY, OBEY, OBEY. It's extreme authoritarianism not authoritative.
It's a completely distorted view of authority and hierarchy; it's abusive. There is no recognition that the Head has an OBLIGATION to pay attention to and give boons to the Members.

Let's just say also, I should mention, that in a perfect world, yes, there ought to be responsiveness and attentiveness from the hierarchy to what the members have to say. The members ought to have an attitude of not fault finding when they have concerns.

You forget that they do all kinds of surveys, etc. trying to hear from the membership.. And of course, those result in never-ending amounts of criticism as well, because nobody in the hierarchy can ever get a break, even when they do look for feedback from the membership.

And you are also welcome to make your voice heard to your SP and by sending letters, etc.

And I also conceded in previous posts that having a better feedback mechanism, in my view, is one way that the Church could improve.

None of this, I think is an excuse for people to go out of bounds of what is expected of them.
People always have agency, and in the end can do whatever, but have to ultimately be willing to accept the ultimate consequence for those choices, whether those consequences are what they expect they will be or not.

[Reluctant Watchman]

You forget that they do all kinds of surveys, etc. trying to hear from the membership.

And a very apparent lack of actual revelation. Stop capitulating to the members and to the government, listen to God and let the chips fall where they may. Heck, just teach the doctrine in the BoM and we'd be miles ahead of where we are.

[edgoble123]

You forget that they do all kinds of surveys, etc. trying to hear from the membership.

And a very apparent lack of actual revelation.

So, you would have them NOT reach out to the membership to then get revelation sometimes based on the responses?

[edgoble123]

Stop capitulating to the members and to the government, listen to God and let the chips fall where they may.

Of course. Taking an action where they do what the members want and what the government wants can never be revelation. What the Lord wants can never be the same as what members and the government hope for. I mean, because surely you know the mind of the Lord and they don't.

[edgoble123]

It wasn’t finding fault with the church. Lehi wasn’t the church. Lehi was about truth and the word of God. There’s a big difference.

Moroni had a few words to say about the prideful LDS church, particularly about us today, now.

Ah of course.. Nothing that you were saying up to this point has been fault finding of the Church or of the brethren.

And of course, certainly, what Moroni was saying is certainly, conveniently for your argument, the hierarchy of the Church, not the pride and living beyond means and speculation and extravagance among the general membership (as prophesied by Heber C. Kimball, incidentally), and certainly it has to be ONLY the LDS, not the pride among all Christianity in general. Certainly not among denominations that are now in bed with the LGBT to where they are having LGBT in their clerical orders. Na, nothing like that.

I mean, just HAS to be those darn evil LDS hierarchy guys at all costs. It can't be nothing else, because surely, these guys could never be actually trying to do the Lord's will with all their might and strength, according to they way they perceive it, and according to the way they genuinely believe scripture ought to be interpreted for our day.

[Reluctant Watchman]

You forget that they do all kinds of surveys, etc. trying to hear from the membership.

And a very apparent lack of actual revelation.

So, you would have them NOT reach out to the membership to then get revelation sometimes based on the responses?

Where should revelation come from?

Can we learn from counseling together? Yes, but that's not what's happening in the church today. I don't even believe these men have keys or authority, so I don't look to them for light, knowledge, or understanding. But a true prophet would inquire of the Lord and then petition their friends to verify all things through the Spirit, knowing that even prophets get things wrong. Preach 2 Nephi 28:30-31 and I think I'd be good.

[Reluctant Watchman]

It wasn’t finding fault with the church. Lehi wasn’t the church. Lehi was about truth and the word of God. There’s a big difference.

Moroni had a few words to say about the prideful LDS church, particularly about us today, now.

Ah of course.. Nothing that you were saying up to this point has been fault finding of the Church or of the brethren.

And of course, certainly, what Moroni was saying is certainly, conveniently for your argument, the hierarchy of the Church, not the pride and living beyond means and speculation and extravagance among the general membership (as prophesied by Heber C. Kimball, incidentally), and certainly it has to be ONLY the LDS, not the pride among all Christianity in general. Certainly not among denominations that are now in bed with the LGBT to where they are having LGBT in their clerical orders. Na, nothing like that.

I mean, just HAS to be those darn evil LDS hierarchy guys at all costs. It can't be nothing else, because surely, these guys could never be actually trying to do the Lord's will with all their might and strength, according to they way they perceive it, and according to the way they genuinely believe scripture ought to be interpreted for our day.

Read carefully who Moroni is calling out for their pride. Sure, the members are included, but there's a heck of a lot that sits squarely upon the leadership of the corporation.

[edgoble123]

Where should revelation come from?

Can we learn from counseling together? Yes, but that's not what's happening in the church today. I don't even believe these men have keys or authority, so I don't look to them for light, knowledge, or understanding. But a true prophet would inquire of the Lord and then petition their friends to verify all things through the Spirit, knowing that even prophets get things wrong. Preach 2 Nephi 28:30-31 and I think I'd be good.

Where should it come from? It should come from the councils of the Church where the stewardship for thus and such thingamagigger is in question, and should be reviewed by those who have the keys, and then bing bada boom, it is implemented. As is the current practice.

Oh, of course, a true prophet would petition friends, surely not with the councils consisting of those who are called, whose stewardship it is, to deal with such things. I mean, certainly unanimity in those counsels, and with those who have the keys could never be the right way. I mean, because SURELY, if it were, it would agree with my pet theories of what kind of revelation those guys OUGHT to be getting.

[edgoble123]

Read carefully who Moroni is calling out for their pride. Sure, the members are included, but there's a heck of a lot that sits squarely upon the leadership of the corporation.

Ah, of course, because we all know how evil those guys in that corporation are, because their revelation is not according to my pet theory and my politics, I mean, because remember, only I, a guy with the grievance and who bellyaches, knows the mind of the Lord, surely not those whose stewardship it is.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Where should revelation come from?

Can we learn from counseling together? Yes, but that's not what's happening in the church today. I don't even believe these men have keys or authority, so I don't look to them for light, knowledge, or understanding. But a true prophet would inquire of the Lord and then petition their friends to verify all things through the Spirit, knowing that even prophets get things wrong. Preach 2 Nephi 28:30-31 and I think I'd be good.

Where should it come from? It should come from the councils of the Church where the stewardship for thus and such thingamagigger is in question, and should be reviewed by those who have the keys, and then bing bada boom, it is implemented. As is the current practice.

Oh, of course, a true prophet would petition friends, surely not with the councils consisting of those who are called, whose stewardship it is, to deal with such things. I mean, certainly unanimity in those counsels, and with those who have the keys could never be the right way. I mean, because SURELY, if it were, it would agree with my pet theories of what kind of revelation those guys OUGHT to be getting.

The end-all-be-all is the HG, without question. Done, end of story. That's the purity of Christ's doctrine that we are sorely missing in the church.