The Church Playing shell games with your tithing

[Reluctant Watchman]

Devceive, who? The members? Not so.

To pay less taxes for the Federal Wickedness of the United States? Then go! Do it!

My brother (an accountant) is always telling me I am paying too much taxes, and told me to open a shell company for my own autonomous work. Illegal? No. The Portuguese Government has a bunch of old school and woke marxists with at the least one scandal of nepotism or embezzlement a week, and a well-funded woke agenda. Should I be paying more than the due for that?

You are implicitly advocating for blind loyalty to men simply on the basis of their station within the Church. That kind of blind loyalty is what gets people defrauded. The SEC has laid out a compelling case of intentional efforts to obfuscate and deceive, all of which was done with the knowledge and approval of the First Presidency and the Presiding Bishopric. You may be willing to look past all of that, but you don't get to tell people how they should feel about that kind of deception.

The LDS church created shell companies to hide the money from the members, not the government. They didn't want members to stop paying tithing because of this massive cash cow that was sitting there.

[francisco.colaco]

Joseph Smith also told that the Earth was like a kettle, with people living on the inside.

He was not a geographer. I won't blame him for being a lil' foolish 999/1000 of his life, when he was not speaking for the Lord.

Now, if Nelson told the same, at the age of satellites and instruments, I'd think he was a bit more than a complete whack job.

You claim to be intelligent, yet you cannot see what is right in front of your eyes. Your eyes pass over the Lord's words and you don't ponder them and you don't open your heart to understand because of your pride in your "righteousness." You claim to care, but you antagonize the people you claim to care about.

Joseph Smith told the Kirkland saints what they had to do to have a successful bank, and they didn't do it. That's not Joseph Smith speaking presumptuously in the name of the Lord.

You claim we would be calling for our Lord and Savior to be crucified. Besides the deep and obvious offense you intend, we aren't the ones despising the Lord's words and holding fast to a geriatric, corrupt cabal who have obviously lost every last shred of priesthood authority. You are. Think about that, bicho.

[francisco.colaco]

Did the Church start asking for 11% instead of 10%? I did not get the memo.

Christ was quite wealthy when he started His ministry (don't ask me how I know, but I know, and the Bible account hints just that). I betch'a more than a few here would take that against him.

Do not take your own frustrations for not being able to maintain your standard of living on the LDS leaders. It's tough to a lot of people, not only you. I have been blessed enough with raises well above inflation, but most of the people I know are counting pennies. You aren't alone, not by any means. Direct instead your blaming to:

Joe Biden
Forecloser of the United States
1600 Pensylvania Avenue
Washington

The LDS church created shell companies to hide the money from the members, not the government. They didn't want members to stop paying tithing because of this massive cash cow that was sitting there.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Did the Church start asking for 11% instead of 10%? I did not get the memo.

Christ was quite wealthy when he started His ministry (don't ask me how I know, but I know, and the Bible account hints just that). I betch'a more than a few here would take that against him.

Do not take your own frustrations for not being able to maintain your standard of living on the LDS leaders. It's tough to a lot of people, not only you. I have been blessed enough with raises well above inflation, but most of the people I know are counting pennies. You aren't alone, not by any means. Direct instead your blaming to:

Joe Biden
Forecloser of the United States
1600 Pensylvania Avenue
Washington

The LDS church created shell companies to hide the money from the members, not the government. They didn't want members to stop paying tithing because of this massive cash cow that was sitting there.

They ask for an incorrect tithe to begin with, and then they hide it from the members. They are dishonest.

BTW, is that the best argument you have? "Well, they didn't abuse you more than they already did..." SMH

[spiritMan]

Did the Church start asking for 11% instead of 10%? I did not get the memo.

Christ was quite wealthy when he started His ministry (don't ask me how I know, but I know, and the Bible account hints just that). I betch'a more than a few here would take that against him.

Do not take your own frustrations for not being able to maintain your standard of living on the LDS leaders. It's tough to a lot of people, not only you. I have been blessed enough with raises well above inflation, but most of the people I know are counting pennies. You aren't alone, not by any means. Direct instead your blaming to:

Joe Biden
Forecloser of the United States
1600 Pensylvania Avenue
Washington

The LDS church created shell companies to hide the money from the members, not the government. They didn't want members to stop paying tithing because of this massive cash cow that was sitting there.

download.jpeg (7.27 KiB) Viewed 358 times

[spiritMan]

Did the Church start asking for 11% instead of 10%? I did not get the memo.

Christ was quite wealthy when he started His ministry (don't ask me how I know, but I know, and the Bible account hints just that). I betch'a more than a few here would take that against him.

Do not take your own frustrations for not being able to maintain your standard of living on the LDS leaders. It's tough to a lot of people, not only you. I have been blessed enough with raises well above inflation, but most of the people I know are counting pennies. You aren't alone, not by any means. Direct instead your blaming to:

Joe Biden
Forecloser of the United States
1600 Pensylvania Avenue
Washington

The LDS church created shell companies to hide the money from the members, not the government. They didn't want members to stop paying tithing because of this massive cash cow that was sitting there.

I'm really sure some schlop in Portugal who gets visited by missionaries who tells them that they have to pay 10% of their income to the Church and how by the way over 10% of what you give is going to a US corporation to buy US stocks!!!! is really going to say . . . yeah sign me up for that!!

I get it . . .the audacity of what they have done requires people to defend it b/c if they don't defend it their entire faith in God collapses.

[Ciams]

It's reasonable that the church doesn't want someone to say in their heart, why should I give $100 when there is $45 billion in that pile over there. That 45 billion won't last long if everyone feels that way.

It's estimated the church received 7 billion in tithing each year according to an NBC article a decade ago. Sounds high, but let's double that number for today.

14 billion a year. The church has 45 billion in Ensign Peak. Let's assume in cash and other securities, not including real estate the church has 100 billion for easy rounding.

So the church has savings of 7x it's annual contributions. Is that unreasonable? Do you want it to be 5x savings and tell everyone to subtract a percent of tithing and the church just lets EPA fund grow and tries to make expenses match donations and pay out rebates with what's left?

The savings is growing primarily based on strength of the market, not on the church funneling billions into it every year.

Would everyone be happier if the church didn't invest long term in the stock market and just parked it into a bank account generating no return? The church needs to save something, any reasonable person can agree. Do we really want that savings to be as low return as possible?

Let's assume the church hums along another 200 years. Assuming we don't end up with some woke caped crusaders at the helm, the value of that fund could be in the trillions. The church has the benefit of planning and saving across decades and potentially centuries. The kingdom of God on earth could become the most powerful non governmental institution in the world through the power of compound interest and stock growth.

We can all argue if that's what the savior intended or desires. But since we don't pilot the helm, we don't get a vote other than to stay on the ship or get off at the next port. If the savior has a thing to say about it, I trust he will.

All that wealth can collapse and evaporate in an instant. If it does, well have far more pressing things to worry about globally than the value of the church's savings.

I think tithing is one of those things that has worked amazingly well. The church leaves it for you to declare your status as a tithe payer. My suggestion, don't cheat the lord, but also don't be foolish and pay on gross in a world where we are increasingly enslaved through tax and spend programs. Everyone situation is different though so that advice will not apply equally. I just think some people havent thought through how many members are forced to prepay insurance or other goods through their wages and the value of their wages is inflated to cover that and you now never touch that money.

Some workers get pricey insurance provided as part of their employment. Others have to buy it after their wages. Be smart, generous and fair to the Lord and yourself as you pay and declare your tithing.

[spiritMan]

It's reasonable that the church doesn't want someone to say in their heart, why should I give $100 when there is $45 billion in that pile over there. That 45 billion won't last long if everyone feels that way.

It's estimated the church received 7 billion in tithing each year according to an NBC article a decade ago. Sounds high, but let's double that number for today.

14 billion a year. The church has 45 billion in Ensign Peak. Let's assume in cash and other securities, not including real estate the church has 100 billion for easy rounding.

So the church has savings of 7x it's annual contributions. Is that unreasonable? Do you want it to be 5x savings and tell everyone to subtract a percent of tithing and the church just lets EPA fund grow and tries to make expenses match donations and pay out rebates with what's left?

The savings is growing primarily based on strength of the market, not on the church funneling billions into it every year.

Would everyone be happier if the church didn't invest long term in the stock market and just parked it into a bank account generating no return? The church needs to save something, any reasonable person can agree. Do we really want that savings to be as low return as possible?

Let's assume the church hums along another 200 years. Assuming we don't end up with some woke caped crusaders at the helm, the value of that fund could be in the trillions. The church has the benefit of planning and saving across decades and potentially centuries. The kingdom of God on earth could become the most powerful non governmental institution in the world through the power of compound interest and stock growth.

We can all argue if that's what the savior intended or desires. But since we don't pilot the helm, we don't get a vote other than to stay on the ship or get off at the next port. If the savior has a thing to say about it, I trust he will.

All that wealth can collapse and evaporate in an instant. If it does, well have far more pressing things to worry about globally than the value of the church's savings.

I think tithing is one of those things that has worked amazingly well. The church leaves it for you to declare your status as a tithe payer. My suggestion, don't cheat the lord, but also don't be foolish and pay on gross in a world where we are increasingly enslaved through tax and spend programs. Everyone situation is different though so that advice will not apply equally. I just think some people havent thought through how many members are forced to prepay insurance or other goods through their wages and the value of their wages is inflated to cover that and you now never touch that money.

Some workers get pricey insurance provided as part of their employment. Others have to buy it after their wages. Be smart, generous and fair to the Lord and yourself as you pay and declare your tithing.

The Church receives about 8-9 billion a year in tithing; it hasn't increased that much in a decade.

[Reluctant Watchman]

It's reasonable that the church doesn't want someone to say in their heart, why should I give $100 when there is $45 billion in that pile over there. That 45 billion won't last long if everyone feels that way.

It's estimated the church received 7 billion in tithing each year according to an NBC article a decade ago. Sounds high, but let's double that number for today.

14 billion a year. The church has 45 billion in Ensign Peak. Let's assume in cash and other securities, not including real estate the church has 100 billion for easy rounding.

So the church has savings of 7x it's annual contributions. Is that unreasonable? Do you want it to be 5x savings and tell everyone to subtract a percent of tithing and the church just lets EPA fund grow and tries to make expenses match donations and pay out rebates with what's left?

The savings is growing primarily based on strength of the market, not on the church funneling billions into it every year.

Would everyone be happier if the church didn't invest long term in the stock market and just parked it into a bank account generating no return? The church needs to save something, any reasonable person can agree. Do we really want that savings to be as low return as possible?

Let's assume the church hums along another 200 years. Assuming we don't end up with some woke caped crusaders at the helm, the value of that fund could be in the trillions. The church has the benefit of planning and saving across decades and potentially centuries. The kingdom of God on earth could become the most powerful non governmental institution in the world through the power of compound interest and stock growth.

We can all argue if that's what the savior intended or desires. But since we don't pilot the helm, we don't get a vote other than to stay on the ship or get off at the next port. If the savior has a thing to say about it, I trust he will.

All that wealth can collapse and evaporate in an instant. If it does, well have far more pressing things to worry about globally than the value of the church's savings.

I think tithing is one of those things that has worked amazingly well. The church leaves it for you to declare your status as a tithe payer. My suggestion, don't cheat the lord, but also don't be foolish and pay on gross in a world where we are increasingly enslaved through tax and spend programs. Everyone situation is different though so that advice will not apply equally. I just think some people havent thought through how many members are forced to prepay insurance or other goods through their wages and the value of their wages is inflated to cover that and you now never touch that money.

Some workers get pricey insurance provided as part of their employment. Others have to buy it after their wages. Be smart, generous and fair to the Lord and yourself as you pay and declare your tithing.

They've built up fine sanctuaries on the backs of the poor. They've twisted the law of the tithe and of sacrifice. No need to justify corruption.

[edgoble123]

I care about my loved one's too much to be silent and allow them to be abused by the LDS corp. I also don't feel a need to speak with Rusty. I've spoken with my local leaders. They invited me to leave.

Then if you insist on being activist about it, you are welcome to join the other noble and great ones that have lent their voices to the effort, such as.... some from the September Six, John Dehlin, Kate Kelly, Sandra Tanner, Bill Reel, RFM, Paul Osborne, and good ol' Kerry Shirts.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I care about my loved one's too much to be silent and allow them to be abused by the LDS corp. I also don't feel a need to speak with Rusty. I've spoken with my local leaders. They invited me to leave.

Then if you insist on being activist about it, you are welcome to join the other noble and great ones that have lent their voices to the effort, such as.... some from the September Six, John Dehlin, Kate Kelly, Sandra Tanner, Bill Reel, RFM, Paul Osborne, and good ol' Kerry Shirts.

So you think the only recourse is to become like some of these people? John Dehlin is an aethist. I'm leaving the church because they've corrupted the gospel. If you want to put a label on me I'm far more of a religious purist, maybe an "extremist" because I believe much of what the scriptures teach. The church has changed or distorted even the most basic truths.

[spiritMan]

It's reasonable that the church doesn't want someone to say in their heart, why should I give $100 when there is $45 billion in that pile over there. That 45 billion won't last long if everyone feels that way.

When people are told to pay tithing first and the Church has 100B . . .yeah that's called grinding the faces of the poor.

14 billion a year. The church has 45 billion in Ensign Peak. Let's assume in cash and other securities, not including real estate the church has 100 billion for easy rounding.

More like 100B.

So the church has savings of 7x it's annual contributions. Is that unreasonable? Do you want it to be 5x savings and tell everyone to subtract a percent of tithing and the church just lets EPA fund grow and tries to make expenses match donations and pay out rebates with what's left?

Church has enough to pay for its expense from the EPA for the foreseeable future

Would everyone be happier if the church didn't invest long term in the stock market and just parked it into a bank account generating no return? The church needs to save something, any reasonable person can agree. Do we really want that savings to be as low return as possible?

For real??? Absolutely, I'd rather it be in US bonds, treasury, etc.
Not stocks. Why? Because it means the Church has a conflict of interest. When millions of dollars are put into a stock company like oh lets say PZIFER then who stands to gain when the Church says "take the shot" . . . i.e. their own pocket book. The Church can't call out Disney for it's immorality b/c to do so would hurt it's bottom line.

And when you have 100B in stocks vs. 7B in income you are absolutely going to protect the 100B over the 7B.

Let's assume the church hums along another 200 years. Assuming we don't end up with some woke caped crusaders at the helm, the value of that fund could be in the trillions. The church has the benefit of planning and saving across decades and potentially centuries. The kingdom of God on earth could become the most powerful non governmental institution in the world through the power of compound interest and stock growth.

bahahahahahah. I invite you to really, really read what you just wrote. It shows where your heart is and it ain't in God.

We can all argue if that's what the savior intended or desires. But since we don't pilot the helm, we don't get a vote other than to stay on the ship or get off at the next port. If the savior has a thing to say about it, I trust he will.

Victim shaming/blaming

All that wealth can collapse and evaporate in an instant. If it does, well have far more pressing things to worry about globally than the value of the church's savings.

Umm yes. Hmm . . . . the Church could learn a thing or two from Christ:
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

I think tithing is one of those things that has worked amazingly well. The church leaves it for you to declare your status as a tithe payer. My suggestion, don't cheat the lord, but also don't be foolish and pay on gross in a world where we are increasingly enslaved through tax and spend programs. Everyone situation is different though so that advice will not apply equally. I just think some people havent thought through how many members are forced to prepay insurance or other goods through their wages and the value of their wages is inflated to cover that and you now never touch that money.

Not really; if the Bishop doesn't like your answer he will press you on it and even if you give a yes answer and you are driving a new car and your tithing isn't what he thinks it should be . . .well he will believe you are a liar.

And have you ever looked around at what the local members actually get for it? Taken a look at the youth program (a total joke, but we can have slick multi-million dollar kick-off productions, FSY camps are dumps), chapels (clean your own place, beg for repairs to be made).

Some workers get pricey insurance provided as part of their employment. Others have to buy it after their wages. Be smart, generous and fair to the Lord and yourself as you pay and declare your tithing.

When they centralized tithing they doomed it.

[edgoble123]

Or, you could just worry about your own life, your own behavior, your own faults and things you can rationally change for yourself.

You're right. We should never even look at another person in case we may make a judgment about their actions.

Wow. I never heard that one in scripture.

But again I ask you, if the test of this life is to see how you react, and whether you will be obedient regardless of what you are presented in this life, I ask you, is it a proper reaction and a proper performance in this test environment to become activist in this manner, finding fault? Is it not possible that the circumstances are allowed to be this way, without the Lord's intervention to stop it, to see whether you will be obedient?

Is the reaction of activism and finding of fault what is expected to pass that kind of a test?

[edgoble123]

So you think the only recourse is to become like some of these people? John Dehlin is an aethist. I'm leaving the church because they've corrupted the gospel. If you want to put a label on me I'm far more of a religious purist, maybe an "extremist" because I believe much of what the scriptures teach. The church has changed or distorted even the most basic truths.

So you are saying that by leaving the church or being exed, when you are an activist like these people, you are not the same as these people, when you lend your voice to the same Great and Spacious that these people are a part of, yet you say somehow that your religious purity exempts you from being in that Great and Spacious. Are you building more real estate in the air next to their Great and Spacious and putting a different sign on it. Maybe "Great and Spacious of the Religious and Noble and Scripturally Pure and Theist ex-LDS". And then you can point the finger from a window in that building, and because its a different building, hey! You aint the same as those guys!

[AstonishingGrunt]

Deceive, who? The members? Not so.

To pay less taxes for the Federal Wickedness of the United States? Then go! Do it!

My brother (an accountant) is always telling me I am paying too much taxes, and told me to open a shell company for my own autonomous work. Illegal? No. The Portuguese Government has a bunch of old school and woke marxists with at the least one scandal of nepotism or embezzlement a week, and a well-funded woke agenda. Should I be paying more than the due for that?

You are implicitly advocating for blind loyalty to men simply on the basis of their station within the Church. That kind of blind loyalty is what gets people defrauded. The SEC has laid out a compelling case of intentional efforts to obfuscate and deceive, all of which was done with the knowledge and approval of the First Presidency and the Presiding Bishopric. You may be willing to look past all of that, but you don't get to tell people how they should feel about that kind of deception.

None of this entire episode had anything to do with paying taxes. The SEC Order (https://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf) plainly identifies the Church's rationalizations as being related to hiding the investments from members who might want to copy the Church's investment strategy. That strikes me as a nonsense claim, but the real impact was to hide the holdings from a regulator (the SEC) who is responsible for keeping an eye on funds that can potentially move the market unilaterally.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Or, you could just worry about your own life, your own behavior, your own faults and things you can rationally change for yourself.

You're right. We should never even look at another person in case we may make a judgment about their actions.

Wow. I never heard that one in scripture.

But again I ask you, if the test of this life is to see how you react, and whether you will be obedient regardless of what you are presented in this life, I ask you, is it a proper reaction and a proper performance in this test environment to become activist in this manner, finding fault? Is it not possible that the circumstances are allowed to be this way, without the Lord's intervention to stop it, to see whether you will be obedient?

Is the reaction of activism and finding of fault what is expected to pass that kind of a test?

I made a thread for you:

viewtopic.php?t=69969

[Reluctant Watchman]

So you think the only recourse is to become like some of these people? John Dehlin is an aethist. I'm leaving the church because they've corrupted the gospel. If you want to put a label on me I'm far more of a religious purist, maybe an "extremist" because I believe much of what the scriptures teach. The church has changed or distorted even the most basic truths.

So you are saying that by leaving the church or being exed, when you are an activist like these people, you are not the same as these people, when you lend your voice to the same Great and Spacious that these people are a part of, yet you say somehow that your religious purity exempts you from being in that Great and Spacious. Are you building more real estate in the air next to their Great and Spacious and putting a different sign on it. Maybe "Great and Spacious of the Religious and Noble and Scripturally Pure and Theist ex-LDS". And then you can point the finger from a window in that building, and because its a different building, hey! You aint the same as those guys!

The church is the Great and Spacious building with no foundation. They ruined the foundation brought forth by Joseph. They literally build a great and spacious building upon the backs of the poor with ill-gotten gain. Many of us are striving to follow the iron rod, which is the purity of the word as witnessed by the Spirit. You think these men speak for God when they are speaking blasphemes from their Rameuptoms. I think you can find them scattered all throughout the G&S building.

[edgoble123]

I made a thread for you:

viewtopic.php?t=69969

I have to say, that was a very decent gesture of you. thank you.

[francisco.colaco]

Sounds like Uncle Sam has no money, a pile of debt and is trying to start the extorsionary part of the end of empires. That is how the Roman Empire fell: one of the multiple reasons, and more a reaction than a cause, the legions went about taking half or more of the grain of peasants. When the barbarians came, nobody cared about the fall of the Empire: they were better treated by the new land owners.

So, uncle Sam is trying to find a way to get money from those pesky Mormons. Soon enough, fines and compensations will be devised. The Church is trying to buy time, flexing like a palm tree leave, and that comes about to it.

If you guys do not want to pay tithing, that is between you and the Lord. Don't hold a grudge on those that do, that were blessed with greater wealth. They are the smarter part, and will win the Pascal's Wager.

[None of this entire episode had anything to do with paying taxes. The SEC Order (https://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf) plainly identifies the Church's rationalizations as being related to hiding the investments from members who might want to copy the Church's investment strategy. That strikes me as a nonsense claim, but the real impact was to hide the holdings from a regulator (the SEC) who is responsible for keeping an eye on funds that can potentially move the market unilaterally.

[EmmaLee]

daft as hell.jpg (20.04 KiB) Viewed 163 times

[Reluctant Watchman]

If you guys do not want to pay tithing, that is between you and the Lord. Don't hold a grudge on those that do, that were blessed with greater wealth. They are the smarter part, and will win the Pascal's Wager.

Just soaking in the beautiful piece of rebuttal. Breathtaking really.

[Lizzy60]

Sounds like Uncle Sam has no money, a pile of debt and is trying to start the extorsionary part of the end of empires. That is how the Roman Empire fell: one of the multiple reasons, and more a reaction than a cause, the legions went about taking half or more of the grain of peasants. When the barbarians came, nobody cared about the fall of the Empire: they were better treated by the new land owners.

So, uncle Sam is trying to find a way to get money from those pesky Mormons. Soon enough, fines and compensations will be devised. The Church is trying to buy time, flexing like a palm tree leave, and that comes about to it.

If you guys do not want to pay tithing, that is between you and the Lord. Don't hold a grudge on those that do, that were blessed with greater wealth. They are the smarter part, and will win the Pascal's Wager.

[None of this entire episode had anything to do with paying taxes. The SEC Order (https://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf) plainly identifies the Church's rationalizations as being related to hiding the investments from members who might want to copy the Church's investment strategy. That strikes me as a nonsense claim, but the real impact was to hide the holdings from a regulator (the SEC) who is responsible for keeping an eye on funds that can potentially move the market unilaterally.

There is no one in this conversation who does not believe in God, so your Pascal’s Wager is not applicable.

If my relationship with God enables me to receive revelation that I should use my tithes to alleviate the suffering of the poor, and to bless the lives of others, why would I send it those who are using it to gamble in the markets?

[edgoble123]

The church is the Great and Spacious building with no foundation. They ruined the foundation brought forth by Joseph. They literally build a great and spacious building upon the backs of the poor with ill-gotten gain. Many of us are striving to follow the iron rod, which is the purity of the word as witnessed by the Spirit. You think these men speak for God when they are speaking blasphemes from their Rameuptoms. I think you can find them scattered all throughout the G&S building.

If those are your perceptions, then putting myself in your place for a moment, if I may, I can comprehend why, and I can put myself in your shoes in terms of imagination, with the exception of actually experiencing what you have experienced first hand. I don't know why I would, because my heart doesn't go there. I don't feel the need or the desire, or the fire in my bones to fight the fight that you fight. You see, Kerry Shirts, who presents a lot on Mormonism Live, is a friend of mine, and Paul Osborne used to be a friend of mine. I presented at Sunstone with Kerry in the same presentation notwithstanding he is now in some ways (understandably) a bitter ex-Member of the Church. For a number of years, I swam in the depths of the Dr. Shades DiscussMormonism/MormonDiscussions message board. I know some of these people. Some of these people are my friends, even though some of those friendships have ended, like with my former associate in Book of Abraham studies, Paul Osborne. It isn't hard to see how they think, because I fully comprehend how they think. I think I fully comprehend the reasons for their leaving. Nothing separates me from them in terms of knowledge and experience about where they "hang out" on the Internet, with the exception of making the choice to go over to their side. So, I have been around the block. I comprehend to its core Internet Mormonism and many of its factions, to include those movements that are against it. So, when I say that I understand you, and somewhat empathize without sympathizing, better than almost 99% of other TBMs because of the crowd I have been around for so many years. Nevertheless, when I say I can empathize without sympathizing, I mean what I say. Not only do I not find sympathy. I have no patience for the attitude in the sense that, although it has a certain rationality, I do not find it rational, and I think all of you know better in the core of your gut. In fact, I know you do, because I know that if I chose as you, I know I would have no excuse, because I would be making the choice with full knowledge of what is clearly and plainly outlined for me in plain language in terms of what is expected of me. I would have full knowledge of that, and I know you all have full knowledge of that. So, I say, you are all making the choice with full knowledge of what is already expected of you. So it is no mystery to you what I am saying. You know full well what you have turned against, those of you that have. You know full well of what you have chosen. Therefore, in a sense, it is willful, open rebellion against what you know, and I have no patience for it. I can empathize in the sense that all of you are real people, who are going through real suffering. I have no patience, in the sense that I find no excuse for the behavior, when your choices are so clear. I mean, I get it that you have used your agency to choose it. But when people make themselves out to be a "victim" of circumstance, yes it is true that some have suffered abuse. But all have had a choice to make. And some have made one choice, while others have made another. Nobody is "better" than anybody in terms of that if any of us do not repent, we all end up in a not so great place. We are all reliant on the same Savior. I just hope a few heed my words. I know some have in the past, and I'm grateful to them that they took my voice seriously. If I can be an agent in just one of you turning away from what you are doing, then maybe it will have been worth it. But I can only take so much sometimes, so I have left this place in the past.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Did the Church start asking for 11% instead of 10%? I did not get the memo.

Christ was quite wealthy when he started His ministry (don't ask me how I know, but I know, and the Bible account hints just that). I betch'a more than a few here would take that against him.

Do not take your own frustrations for not being able to maintain your standard of living on the LDS leaders. It's tough to a lot of people, not only you. I have been blessed enough with raises well above inflation, but most of the people I know are counting pennies. You aren't alone, not by any means. Direct instead your blaming to:

Joe Biden
Forecloser of the United States
1600 Pensylvania Avenue
Washington

The LDS church created shell companies to hide the money from the members, not the government. They didn't want members to stop paying tithing because of this massive cash cow that was sitting there.

I'm really sure some schlop in Portugal who gets visited by missionaries who tells them that they have to pay 10% of their income to the Church and how by the way over 10% of what you give is going to a US corporation to buy US stocks!!!! is really going to say . . . yeah sign me up for that!!

I get it . . .the audacity of what they have done requires people to defend it b/c if they don't defend it their entire faith in God collapses.

To be fair, the tithing collected in all other countries, including Canada, remains in that country as per the laws of those countries. No religious organization is allowed to "export" donations to other countries. The USA is the only exception I'm aware of. We can export tithing donations to other countries. The only quasi exception is that Canadiens can donate to educational institutions like universities etc. (BYU). Apart from that, all other countries are net drains on church tithing funds and all require supplementation. Canada is an exception to that as well, since they require little if any additional tithing from the USA.

[spiritMan]

The church is the Great and Spacious building with no foundation. They ruined the foundation brought forth by Joseph. They literally build a great and spacious building upon the backs of the poor with ill-gotten gain. Many of us are striving to follow the iron rod, which is the purity of the word as witnessed by the Spirit. You think these men speak for God when they are speaking blasphemes from their Rameuptoms. I think you can find them scattered all throughout the G&S building.

If those are your perceptions, then putting myself in your place for a moment, if I may, I can comprehend why, and I can put myself in your shoes in terms of imagination, with the exception of actually experiencing what you have experienced first hand. I don't know why I would, because my heart doesn't go there. I don't feel the need or the desire, or the fire in my bones to fight the fight that you fight. You see, Kerry Shirts, who presents a lot on Mormonism Live, is a friend of mine, and Paul Osborne used to be a friend of mine. I presented at Sunstone with Kerry in the same presentation notwithstanding he is now in some ways (understandably) a bitter ex-Member of the Church. For a number of years, I swam in the depths of the Dr. Shades DiscussMormonism/MormonDiscussions message board. I know some of these people. Some of these people are my friends, even though some of those friendships have ended, like with my former associate in Book of Abraham studies, Paul Osborne. It isn't hard to see how they think, because I fully comprehend how they think. I think I fully comprehend the reasons for their leaving. Nothing separates me from them in terms of knowledge and experience about where they "hang out" on the Internet, with the exception of making the choice to go over to their side. So, I have been around the block. I comprehend to its core Internet Mormonism and many of its factions, to include those movements that are against it. So, when I say that I understand you, and somewhat empathize without sympathizing, better than almost 99% of other TBMs because of the crowd I have been around for so many years. Nevertheless, when I say I can empathize without sympathizing, I mean what I say. Not only do I not find sympathy. I have no patience for the attitude in the sense that, although it has a certain rationality, I do not find it rational, and I think all of you know better in the core of your gut. In fact, I know you do, because I know that if I chose as you, I know I would have no excuse, because I would be making the choice with full knowledge of what is clearly and plainly outlined for me in plain language in terms of what is expected of me. I would have full knowledge of that, and I know you all have full knowledge of that. So, I say, you are all making the choice with full knowledge of what is already expected of you. So it is no mystery to you what I am saying. You know full well what you have turned against, those of you that have. You know full well of what you have chosen. Therefore, in a sense, it is willful, open rebellion against what you know, and I have no patience for it. I can empathize in the sense that all of you are real people, who are going through real suffering. I have no patience, in the sense that I find no excuse for the behavior, when your choices are so clear. I mean, I get it that you have used your agency to choose it. But when people make themselves out to be a "victim" of circumstance, yes it is true that some have suffered abuse. But all have had a choice to make. And some have made one choice, while others have made another. Nobody is "better" than anybody in terms of that if any of us do not repent, we all end up in a not so great place. We are all reliant on the same Savior. I just hope a few heed my words. I know some have in the past, and I'm grateful to them that they took my voice seriously. If I can be an agent in just one of you turning away from what you are doing, then maybe it will have been worth it. But I can only take so much sometimes, so I have left this place in the past.

" You know full well what you have turned against, those of you that have. You know full well of what you have chosen. Therefore, in a sense, it is willful, open rebellion against what you know, and I have no patience for it."

???? Well, well off the mark. Sure that type of line of reasoning might have worked with people who go full deep into wickedness. My faith, trust, believe in God and in His Son has only skyrocketed.