The Church Playing shell games with your tithing

[Lizzy60]

You keep saying that phrase but we aren’t dealing with conjecture or opinions here. My agency isn’t in question here.

These are legitimate facts that the Church agreed to as part of the settlement.

And? legitimate "facts" leading to what kind of behavior and attitudes amongst the people? The kind that you advocate? The only thing that matters is how people decide to behave and think about this, whether they decide to remain covenant keepers or not. It seems many here advocate for jumping ship. I'm a voice that is an advocate of a different kind of behavior. That isn't conjecture or opinion. That is a fact that people have to decide HOW they will decide to be.

I haven’t made any covenants with the church, and none of the covenants I have made with God have any bearing on whether I am a member of any church. Yes, I am still LDS, but if that changes I will still do my best to stay true to the covenants between God and myself.

[Atrasado]

Know your history. The Pharisees were a dissenting sect from the Roman Empire. Along with the Saducees. They did not recognise roman jurisdiction at all.

But as soon as the Roman Empire were judging Christ, they were soon enamorated by the Roman Rule. And those that do not know their past will repeat past mistakes.

Guys, I know I am sometimes a pain in the arse of Church dissenters. You don't even get how I grudge on communists. But, things apart, your doubts are legitimate if you think of it at a small, limited, impaired human perspective. That, unfortunately, is the fate on men: to be so short that they cannot even see how big is God's creations.

I understand the Church has to enrichen itself now and secure agricultural land. I fear the time when the Church will have to assert that right and use it to feed it's membership and all the just non-members (aka gentiles) which will flock to Zion. I know that time is close, and I fear that it is due on our lifetime. Not even Sodoma and Gomorah had so many crimes on their heads as the present world, particularly the West, has on it. I am sorry to say this to the once the Land of Freedom and Liberty, but the U. S. is screwed, having sown the seeds of their destruction. I am sorry for having to say it, because America was the greatest implementer of the European notions of freedom and rule of law, and then exported that implementation to the whole World.

The World has a lot to thank the U. S. But now, what comes from your shores is pure trash -- wokism, about to be legalised paedophilia and ubiquitous narcissism. At this point, either the U.S. changes and repents, or they will continue to be a scourge to the World. Unless Spencer W. Kimball was right, the gentiles will not repent. An that is where a Church full of properties to explore and trade comes (yes, some land in Zion will be traded for bigger land elsewhere by their owners).

The Lord seems to be a bit taller than most of us. Physically, about 1,90 m. Intelectually, higher than me but obviously lower than most people at LDS Freedom Forum, who purport to know Him so well that they know exactly how He works.

I understand the LDS Church has to buy time and, yes, get rich. 10% is still 10%, and the Church is not asking 11% from anyone. You can't be mad that the Lord, enriching lives with the Gospel, also blesses families financially -- which in turn generates more 10% values. Not 11% nor 25%; nor 45% + 15%, which is my tax bracket in Portugal (I have been blessed enough, thank you, and will change my tax country for a less burdensome one next quarter).

As to the obvious misery and stagnation of your financial lives, educate yourselves, go back to Church and pay tithing. Change trade, if need be. I have. For good. And my raises have always been well above inflation since I changed career (this year they were 25%, and we're only at the beginning of the year).

The irony of you post? The Pharisees "led" the church and are as enamored by the government which ruled over them as our current church leaders are with the government which rules over them.

That and liars are "thrust" down to hell ... and that's what the leadership of the church was just convicted of, yet anyone who points that out will be going to hell and not the other way around.

Help me understand ...

Perhaps you're forgetting D&C 121 where it talks about covering our sins, and our pride and vain ambition. What happens to us when we do those things? Well, of course, we lose our priesthood and authority. They are still pridefully hiding their sins in regards to their Ensign Peak criminal conspiracy to hide the wealth of the Church from the members. There are no caveats to that scripture for high ranking leaders. In fact, it probably applies to them even more than the average member.

Maybe you haven't read Deuteronomy 18:20-22. The Lord through Moses gave us a method to know if a prophet is speaking for Him. We simply look to see if what they said comes to pass. What the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve said about the Covid-19 vaccines certainly did not come to pass. The Covid-19 vaccines aren't safe and they certainly aren't effective. Thus, the Lord will destroy them for speaking presumptuously and the Lord also commands us to not fear them (treat them as his prophets).

You think we are cutting the thread that binds us to the prophet and will sink to hell. But that's not the case. The President of the Church and the other apostles are the ones that cut the thread that binds them to Christ. Because of that, we are commanded by the Lord to not follow them.

I don't see how you can argue against these things. The word of the Lord is clear and it is against those men. If you follow them you are violating the Savior's commandments and thus not following Him.

Does that mean that we leave the church? No, it isn't their church. The Lord Himself will address these issues. But, that doesn't mean we should be silent. Once we have been warned, we are commanded to warn others.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Does that mean that we leave the church? No, it isn't their church. The Lord Himself will address these issues. But, that doesn't mean we should be silent. Once we have been warned, we are commanded to warn others.

Ummmm..... Maybe. This life isn't about religion. It's about truth and connecting with God. I believe we have a lot of flexibility in these latter days.

[francisco.colaco]

I am sure they said great things about Moses when Moses took them from Egypt, where they were cosily eating bread in their slavery.

The vaccine episode: I am NOT VACCINATED. I repeat, NOT VACCINATED. But unless one shows me that the vaccine impairs conscience and alters human behaviour, like narcotics or alcohol, for the OPINION of a quorum of the Church (or event the three quora) --- even when wrong --- I give no rodents pubic hair of attention.

Joseph Smith started a bank that failed. Does that make him less of a prophet?

It's easy to start criticising the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They do make mistakes enough, have imbecile opinions sometimes, get a bit cocky about their position, and sometimes they should keep their mouth shout. Just like you and me. We're humans. But, as I get to say in Portuguese, 'é para o lado que durmo melhor' (for all Americans who normally do no other language than English, and have a mediocre proficiency at the latter, it is something like 'Je m'en fiche!' or 'Es ist mir völlig egal!'). I do not care about the faults of others, being myself full of faults. You think Mr. President of the Church is a bit vain? You should have had the kind of people I had as church leaders, some outright stealing form the Church and committing adultery more or less openly!

I concede that, once you start criticising, a sort of wind will keep you going. Of course, that 'wind' --- let's call it that --- will have you boosted with an inflated sense of perception. Then you know better than anyone, and all others are imbeciles. There is a reward in itself, the brain becomes full of dopamine. What a satisfaction! The wind will have you think that you think for yourself, when you are really think what you think you think it came from your thoughts, and yet it was never yours to think. Those thoughts revisit over and over every fowl stench of human jealousy and self-aggrandisement that loses people, first with linen strings, later with the sturdiest ropes.

One thing I know: be thankful to the Lord that you people were not born during the time of Christ. Most of you would shout 'Barrabas' with full lungs.

Maybe you haven't read Deuteronomy 18:20-22. The Lord through Moses gave us a method to know if a prophet is speaking for Him. We simply look to see if what they said comes to pass. What the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve said about the Covid-19 vaccines certainly did not come to pass. The Covid-19 vaccines aren't safe and they certainly aren't effective. Thus, the Lord will destroy them for speaking presumptuously and the Lord also commands us to not fear them (treat them as his prophets).

[francisco.colaco]

Is Joseph Smith a prophet for you?

Does that mean that we leave the church? No, it isn't their church. The Lord Himself will address these issues. But, that doesn't mean we should be silent. Once we have been warned, we are commanded to warn others.

Ummmm..... Maybe. This life isn't about religion. It's about truth and connecting with God. I believe we have a lot of flexibility in these latter days.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Is Joseph Smith a prophet for you?

Does that mean that we leave the church? No, it isn't their church. The Lord Himself will address these issues. But, that doesn't mean we should be silent. Once we have been warned, we are commanded to warn others.

Ummmm..... Maybe. This life isn't about religion. It's about truth and connecting with God. I believe we have a lot of flexibility in these latter days.

Yes, he had gifts of seership, prophecy, and revelation. But I believe these men who followed him were corrupt, and they corrupted the doctrine. To believe that since we have one prophet, that all other aspects to the religion continue unimpeded is a narrow view of what God intended for His children on this earth. For a people to believe they could never fall into apostasy just because somebody interprets a certain verse in the BoM or the D&C as suggesting the idea, is the height of pride IMO.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I am sure they said great things about Moses when Moses took them from Egypt, where they were cosily eating bread in their slavery.

The vaccine episode: I am NOT VACCINATED. I repeat, NOT VACCINATED. But unless one shows me that the vaccine impairs conscience and alters human behaviour, like narcotics or alcohol, for the OPINION of a quorum of the Church (or event the three quora) --- even when wrong --- I give no rodents pubic hair of attention.

Joseph Smith started a bank that failed. Does that make him less of a prophet?

It's easy to start criticising the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They do make mistakes enough, have imbecile opinions sometimes, get a bit cocky about their position, and sometimes they should keep their mouth shout. Just like you and me. We're humans. But, as I get to say in Portuguese, 'é para o lado que durmo melhor' (for all Americans who normally do no other language than English, and have a mediocre proficiency at the latter, it is something like 'Je m'en fiche!' or 'Es ist mir völlig egal!'). I do not care about the faults of others, being myself full of faults. You think Mr. President of the Church is a bit vain? You should have had the kind of people I had as church leaders, some outright stealing form the Church and committing adultery more or less openly!

I concede that, once you start criticising, a sort of wind will keep you going. Of course, that 'wind' --- let's call it that --- will have you boosted with an inflated sense of perception. Then you know better than anyone, and all others are imbeciles. There is a reward in itself, the brain becomes full of dopamine. What a satisfaction! The wind will have you think that you think for yourself, when you are really think what you think you think it came from your thoughts, and yet it was never yours to think. Those thoughts revisit over and over every fowl stench of human jealousy and self-aggrandisement that loses people, first with linen strings, later with the sturdiest ropes.

One thing I know: be thankful to the Lord that you people were not born during the time of Christ. Most of you would shout 'Barrabas' with full lungs.

Maybe you haven't read Deuteronomy 18:20-22. The Lord through Moses gave us a method to know if a prophet is speaking for Him. We simply look to see if what they said comes to pass. What the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve said about the Covid-19 vaccines certainly did not come to pass. The Covid-19 vaccines aren't safe and they certainly aren't effective. Thus, the Lord will destroy them for speaking presumptuously and the Lord also commands us to not fear them (treat them as his prophets).

The jab is killing people, sorry that isn’t enough evidence for you. Spend 6-8 reading all of these stories and watching these videos and then we can talk. There are 10s of thousands more btw: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/vaccine-reactions

[francisco.colaco]

Than read D&C 1, especially the verse 31, and stop tergiversing.

Is Joseph Smith a prophet for you?

Does that mean that we leave the church? No, it isn't their church. The Lord Himself will address these issues. But, that doesn't mean we should be silent. Once we have been warned, we are commanded to warn others.

Ummmm..... Maybe. This life isn't about religion. It's about truth and connecting with God. I believe we have a lot of flexibility in these latter days.

Yes, he had gifts of seership, prophecy, and revelation. But I believe these men who followed him were corrupt, and they corrupted the doctrine. To believe that since we have one prophet, that all other aspects to the religion continue unimpeded is a narrow view of what God intended for His children on this earth. For a people to believe they could never fall into apostasy just because somebody interprets a certain verse in the BoM or the D&C as suggesting the idea, is the height of pride IMO.

[francisco.colaco]

Evidence of what? Of a crime?

So, they gave their opinion, which was wrong. Did they damn anyone to hell by it?

When Brigham Young ordered the Saints to go to the untamed West, about 8% of them died on the journey or had sequels for life from the famine and effort. Does that make him less of a prophet? Sorry, but your arguments just mean you expect perfection from imperfect people.

The jab is killing people, sorry that isn’t enough evidence for you. Spend 6-8 reading all of these stories and watching these videos and then we can talk. There are 10s of thousands more btw: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/vaccine-reactions

[Reluctant Watchman]

Than read D&C 1, especially the verse 31, and stop tergiversing.

Is Joseph Smith a prophet for you?

Ummmm..... Maybe. This life isn't about religion. It's about truth and connecting with God. I believe we have a lot of flexibility in these latter days.

Yes, he had gifts of seership, prophecy, and revelation. But I believe these men who followed him were corrupt, and they corrupted the doctrine. To believe that since we have one prophet, that all other aspects to the religion continue unimpeded is a narrow view of what God intended for His children on this earth. For a people to believe they could never fall into apostasy just because somebody interprets a certain verse in the BoM or the D&C as suggesting the idea, is the height of pride IMO.

One of the greatest fallacies of religion is to fixate on one verse of scripture and extrapolate an entire theology out of it. You, and many church leaders, have done just that. I’m surprised you didn’t included verse 38.

Interpret that verse as you must, just know that there’s a plethora of canon that speaks otherwise. The Lord prophesied that when this gentile church broke the covenants he made with them, that he’d take the fullness of His gospel from among them. And He has done just that. We have corrupted the doctrine.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Evidence of what? Of a crime?

So, they gave their opinion, which was wrong. Did they damn anyone to hell by it?

When Brigham Young ordered the Saints to go to the untamed West, about 8% of them died on the journey or had sequels for life from the famine and effort. Does that make him less of a prophet? Sorry, but your arguments just mean you expect perfection from imperfect people.

The jab is killing people, sorry that isn’t enough evidence for you. Spend 6-8 reading all of these stories and watching these videos and then we can talk. There are 10s of thousands more btw: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/vaccine-reactions

Wow, you must be a speed reader to have gone through those stories and videos so quickly. The dead are speaking from the grave. Your justification is pathetic IMO.

BTW, I don’t expect perfection from anyone, especially a church leader. Yet it is they who say they are perfect, that they "cannot lead us astray" and that we can "trust them completely." They are spreading these lies and false dogmas. Not me.

[edgoble123]

You’re shifting blame to the people. The blame lies right with Ensign Peak and the top leadership of the Church.

What matters here is how the leadership, who agreed to the settlement are going to decide how to behave. Are you seriously advocating that they have a different standard than the rest of us?

What happened to “do what is right, let the consequences follow”? A consequence is the huge erosion of trust with the membership and public.

The matter is NOT closed.

Is that so? When something is out of someone's personal control, why does that matter to that person's personal choices and behavior, when they have been directed on how to behave, if they choose that direction? If they don't choose that direction, and choose not to care about what they have been directed to do, well, sure, go right ahead and obsess about other people's behavior.

[edgoble123]

I haven’t made any covenants with the church, and none of the covenants I have made with God have any bearing on whether I am a member of any church. Yes, I am still LDS, but if that changes I will still do my best to stay true to the covenants between God and myself.

If that's how you choose to interpret it, and you don't care how those with keys have directed for people to behave, and you think that is not binding on you, and you think its not binding on the way your covenants are meant to function, well, again, by all means, choose ye this day.

[cyclOps]

[Reluctant Watchman]

You’re shifting blame to the people. The blame lies right with Ensign Peak and the top leadership of the Church.

What matters here is how the leadership, who agreed to the settlement are going to decide how to behave. Are you seriously advocating that they have a different standard than the rest of us?

What happened to “do what is right, let the consequences follow”? A consequence is the huge erosion of trust with the membership and public.

The matter is NOT closed.

Is that so? When something is out of someone's personal control, why does that matter to that person's personal choices and behavior, when they have been directed on how to behave, if they choose that direction? If they don't choose that direction, and choose not to care about what they have been directed to do, well, sure, go right ahead and obsess about other people's behavior.

Queue the video detailing how the son’s of Mosiah had great desires to change the behavior of their brethren the Lamanites and bring them to Jesus.

[TwochurchesOnly]

I haven’t made any covenants with the church, and none of the covenants I have made with God have any bearing on whether I am a member of any church. Yes, I am still LDS, but if that changes I will still do my best to stay true to the covenants between God and myself.

If that's how you choose to interpret it, and you don't care how those with keys have directed for people to behave, and you think that is not binding on you, and you think its not binding on the way your covenants are meant to function, well, again, by all means, choose ye this day.

••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
LOL
"... how those with keys have directed for people to behave"

Well then, let's follow their lead on how to behave !
they like pretending to be in charge of keys of morality -while behaving
quite contrary to their pontifications

[Reluctant Watchman]

LOL
"... how those with keys have directed for people to behave"

they like pretending to be in charge of keys of morality -while behaving
quite contrary to their pontifications

Maybe these same keys allow them to abscond $32B and lie about it. These keys probably give them access to the backdoor lock that gives them secret access to 13 shell companies.

[edgoble123]

LOL
"... how those with keys have directed for people to behave"

Well then, let's follow their lead on how to behave !
they like pretending to be in charge of keys of morality -while behaving
quite contrary to their pontifications

If you care about keeping your own behavior and attitude within proper bounds, then its only for you to care about yourself, to not obsess about them, or justify your own behavior based on how you think what your finding of fault is manifesting in them.

Obviously some of you could care less about proper bounds for your own selves. All you care about is the mote in their eye, not your own huge beam in yours.

[edgoble123]

Queue the video detailing how the son’s of Mosiah had great desires to change the behavior of their brethren the Lamanites and bring them to Jesus.

Sounds like you need to go to salt lake and call them to repentance right away then. You had better get on the phone and set up an appointment with Russel M. Nelson in his office right away, without delay and make your accusations instead of bellyaching on an internet forum.

Or, you could just worry about your own life, your own behavior, your own faults and things you can rationally change for yourself.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Or, you could just worry about your own life, your own behavior, your own faults and things you can rationally change for yourself.

You're right. We should never even look at another person in case we may make a judgment about their actions.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Queue the video detailing how the son’s of Mosiah had great desires to change the behavior of their brethren the Lamanites and bring them to Jesus.

Sounds like you need to go to salt lake and call them to repentance right away then. You had better get on the phone and set up an appointment with Russel M. Nelson in his office right away, without delay and make your accusations instead of bellyaching on an internet forum.

Or, you could just worry about your own life, your own behavior, your own faults and things you can rationally change for yourself.

I care about my loved one's too much to be silent and allow them to be abused by the LDS corp. I also don't feel a need to speak with Rusty. I've spoken with my local leaders. They invited me to leave.

[AstonishingGrunt]

Queue the video detailing how the son’s of Mosiah had great desires to change the behavior of their brethren the Lamanites and bring them to Jesus.

Sounds like you need to go to salt lake and call them to repentance right away then. You had better get on the phone and set up an appointment with Russel M. Nelson in his office right away, without delay and make your accusations instead of bellyaching on an internet forum.

Or, you could just worry about your own life, your own behavior, your own faults and things you can rationally change for yourself.

You are implicitly advocating for blind loyalty to men simply on the basis of their station within the Church. That kind of blind loyalty is what gets people defrauded. The SEC has laid out a compelling case of intentional efforts to obfuscate and deceive, all of which was done with the knowledge and approval of the First Presidency and the Presiding Bishopric. You may be willing to look past all of that, but you don't get to tell people how they should feel about that kind of deception.

[Atrasado]

I am sure they said great things about Moses when Moses took them from Egypt, where they were cosily eating bread in their slavery.

The vaccine episode: I am NOT VACCINATED. I repeat, NOT VACCINATED. But unless one shows me that the vaccine impairs conscience and alters human behaviour, like narcotics or alcohol, for the OPINION of a quorum of the Church (or event the three quora) --- even when wrong --- I give no rodents pubic hair of attention.

Joseph Smith started a bank that failed. Does that make him less of a prophet?

It's easy to start criticising the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They do make mistakes enough, have imbecile opinions sometimes, get a bit cocky about their position, and sometimes they should keep their mouth shout. Just like you and me. We're humans. But, as I get to say in Portuguese, 'é para o lado que durmo melhor' (for all Americans who normally do no other language than English, and have a mediocre proficiency at the latter, it is something like 'Je m'en fiche!' or 'Es ist mir völlig egal!'). I do not care about the faults of others, being myself full of faults. You think Mr. President of the Church is a bit vain? You should have had the kind of people I had as church leaders, some outright stealing form the Church and committing adultery more or less openly!

I concede that, once you start criticising, a sort of wind will keep you going. Of course, that 'wind' --- let's call it that --- will have you boosted with an inflated sense of perception. Then you know better than anyone, and all others are imbeciles. There is a reward in itself, the brain becomes full of dopamine. What a satisfaction! The wind will have you think that you think for yourself, when you are really think what you think you think it came from your thoughts, and yet it was never yours to think. Those thoughts revisit over and over every fowl stench of human jealousy and self-aggrandisement that loses people, first with linen strings, later with the sturdiest ropes.

One thing I know: be thankful to the Lord that you people were not born during the time of Christ. Most of you would shout 'Barrabas' with full lungs.

Maybe you haven't read Deuteronomy 18:20-22. The Lord through Moses gave us a method to know if a prophet is speaking for Him. We simply look to see if what they said comes to pass. What the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve said about the Covid-19 vaccines certainly did not come to pass. The Covid-19 vaccines aren't safe and they certainly aren't effective. Thus, the Lord will destroy them for speaking presumptuously and the Lord also commands us to not fear them (treat them as his prophets).

You claim to be intelligent, yet you cannot see what is right in front of your eyes. Your eyes pass over the Lord's words and you don't ponder them and you don't open your heart to understand because of your pride in your "righteousness." You claim to care, but you antagonize the people you claim to care about.

Joseph Smith told the Kirkland saints what they had to do to have a successful bank, and they didn't do it. That's not Joseph Smith speaking presumptuously in the name of the Lord.

You claim we would be calling for our Lord and Savior to be crucified. Besides the deep and obvious offense you intend, we aren't the ones despising the Lord's words and holding fast to a geriatric, corrupt cabal who have obviously lost every last shred of priesthood authority. You are. Think about that, bicho.

[francisco.colaco]

Were I intelligent, I'd be the President of the Church. I'm just not fool enough to think I think for myself the thoughts of countless other fools.

[francisco.colaco]

Deceive, who? The members? Not so.

To pay less taxes for the Federal Wickedness of the United States? Then go! Do it!

My brother (an accountant) is always telling me I am paying too much taxes, and told me to open a shell company for my own autonomous work. Illegal? No. The Portuguese Government has a bunch of old school and woke marxists with at the least one scandal of nepotism or embezzlement a week, and a well-funded woke agenda. Should I be paying more than the due for that?

You are implicitly advocating for blind loyalty to men simply on the basis of their station within the Church. That kind of blind loyalty is what gets people defrauded. The SEC has laid out a compelling case of intentional efforts to obfuscate and deceive, all of which was done with the knowledge and approval of the First Presidency and the Presiding Bishopric. You may be willing to look past all of that, but you don't get to tell people how they should feel about that kind of deception.