The Church Playing shell games with your tithing

[LDS Physician]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-new ... ed-filings

Gotta love being honest in all your doings … guess it’s ok to hide your holdings from the SEC with shell corporations and other subterfuge.

There goes another $5 million in tithing funds down the drain instead of in the mouths of the poor.

Apologists …. Go!

[Reluctant Watchman]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-new ... ed-filings

Gotta love being honest in all your doings … guess it’s ok to hide your holdings from the SEC with shell corporations and other subterfuge.

There goes another $5 million in tithing funds down the drain instead of in the mouths of the poor.

Apologists …. Go!

I'm sure that wasn't tithing, those funds were earmarked as "investment returns." Don't worry, your tithes are safe.

[Subcomandante]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-new ... ed-filings

Gotta love being honest in all your doings … guess it’s ok to hide your holdings from the SEC with shell corporations and other subterfuge.

There goes another $5 million in tithing funds down the drain instead of in the mouths of the poor.

Apologists …. Go!

Tithing money is not used in Ensign Peak Investments.

Edited to reflect later post I made after I found out the truth.

[Lizzy60]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-new ... ed-filings

Gotta love being honest in all your doings … guess it’s ok to hide your holdings from the SEC with shell corporations and other subterfuge.

There goes another $5 million in tithing funds down the drain instead of in the mouths of the poor.

Apologists …. Go!

I'm sure that wasn't tithing, those funds were earmarked as "investment returns." Don't worry, your tithes are safe.

I know you’re being sarcastic, but the Church has actually admitted that the Ensign Peak investment funds come from “excess tithes” and returns on those tithes invested.

Whatever wealth they have on that great and terrible day, they will be trying to hide under the rocks, because their wealth will indict them. Ponder the words of “A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief”. Does the Corporation, under the direction of the First Presidency and the Presiding Bishopric, do all they can in the world to clothe, feed, and succor the least of these? Because if they don’t, the One who is being cast aside is Christ.

[iWriteStuff]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-new ... ed-filings

Gotta love being honest in all your doings … guess it’s ok to hide your holdings from the SEC with shell corporations and other subterfuge.

There goes another $5 million in tithing funds down the drain instead of in the mouths of the poor.

Apologists …. Go!

Tithing money is not used in Ensign Peak Investments.

LOL!!!!

[Lizzy60]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-new ... ed-filings

Gotta love being honest in all your doings … guess it’s ok to hide your holdings from the SEC with shell corporations and other subterfuge.

There goes another $5 million in tithing funds down the drain instead of in the mouths of the poor.

Apologists …. Go!

Tithing money is not used in Ensign Peak Investments.

They have said they use “excess tithes” for Ensign Peak Investments. It’s in the SEC document published this week. EXCESS TITHES

[LDS Physician]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-new ... ed-filings

Gotta love being honest in all your doings … guess it’s ok to hide your holdings from the SEC with shell corporations and other subterfuge.

There goes another $5 million in tithing funds down the drain instead of in the mouths of the poor.

Apologists …. Go!

Tithing money is not used in Ensign Peak Investments.

Disagree. Tithing is the root source of all their $$ unless they’re printing it, but if it allows you to dismiss the dissonance, feel free to think otherwise.

Even if it weren’t tithing, Is it ok for the church to break the law in this dishonest manner while telling us to be honest in all our doings? It’s hypocrisy unless you’re too blind to see it.

[Lizzy60]

From Page 3 of the SEC Ensign Peak Settlement document:

The Church created Ensign Peak in 1997 as an integrated auxiliary of the Church to manage the Church’s investment securities. Ensign Peak has no shareholders or members. The securities portfolio managed by Ensign Peak consists of what the Church calls “reserve funds” or “reserves,” which include U.S. equity and debt securities purchased with excess tithing, income and returns generated by Ensign Peak, and the assets of other Church integrated auxiliaries. Ensign Peak does not charge the Church management fees.

[iWriteStuff]

FWIW my uncle spent his entire professional career working at Ensign Peak. Great guy, love him to death, wonderful man. I am 100% sure he felt he was on the Lord’s errand, building His kingdom, etc.

That being said, the church PR people are blaming “an investment manager” for the shell companies. Yeah that’s not how that works. The board and its legal counsel sets up the shell companies. The investment manager… manages the investments (ie: what shall we buy, what research to conduct, how to diversify, etc). Is it a coincidence that the Presiding Bishopric and half the Q15 is staffed with lawyers and MBAs?

They knew what they were doing. They were the overseers of this fraud. There is literally no one else you can blame for this mess.

[Lizzy60]

Please read page three of the thread “The SEC Ensign Peak Settlement” for many exact quotes from that document. EndlessQuestions is doing a stellar job of breaking it down.

viewtopic.php?t=69840&start=50

[Reluctant Watchman]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-new ... ed-filings

Gotta love being honest in all your doings … guess it’s ok to hide your holdings from the SEC with shell corporations and other subterfuge.

There goes another $5 million in tithing funds down the drain instead of in the mouths of the poor.

Apologists …. Go!

I'm sure that wasn't tithing, those funds were earmarked as "investment returns." Don't worry, your tithes are safe.

I know you’re being sarcastic, but the Church has actually admitted that the Ensign Peak investment funds come from “excess tithes” and returns on those tithes invested.

Whatever wealth they have on that great and terrible day, they will be trying to hide under the rocks, because their wealth will indict them. Ponder the words of “A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief”. Does the Corporation, under the direction of the First Presidency and the Presiding Bishopric, do all they can in the world to clothe, feed, and succor the least of these? Because if they don’t, the One who is being cast aside is Christ.

I’ve never been sarcastic on the forum.

[iWriteStuff]

I can’t stop watching this:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Co7vo_Ag ... MyMTA2M2Y=

[Reluctant Watchman]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-new ... ed-filings

Gotta love being honest in all your doings … guess it’s ok to hide your holdings from the SEC with shell corporations and other subterfuge.

There goes another $5 million in tithing funds down the drain instead of in the mouths of the poor.

Apologists …. Go!

Tithing money is not used in Ensign Peak Investments.

They have said they use “excess tithes” for Ensign Peak Investments. It’s in the SEC document published this week. EXCESS TITHES

These are not the tithes you are looking for.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I can’t stop watching this:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Co7vo_Ag ... MyMTA2M2Y=

Oh… my… I’m still laughing.

[endlessQuestions]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-new ... ed-filings

Gotta love being honest in all your doings … guess it’s ok to hide your holdings from the SEC with shell corporations and other subterfuge.

There goes another $5 million in tithing funds down the drain instead of in the mouths of the poor.

Apologists …. Go!

Tithing money is not used in Ensign Peak Investments.

Bull.

Crap.

Read the Order before you flap your gums.

EDIT: This was an inappropriate response. I have apologized to Sub, but want to leave the original here for historical purposes.

[endlessQuestions]

Here's where I break down the SEC Order:

viewtopic.php?t=69840

[Ebenezer]

I wonder what else the church hides under shells.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I wonder what else the church hides under shells.

Or temples.

[LDS Physician]

$5 million = chump change. They got the gadianton discount

[endlessQuestions]

$5 million = chump change. They got the gadianton discount

Literally like less than a cent out of my wallet.

[Tall.Traveler]

I know something about these sorts of issues. Does Ensign Peak manage tithing funds? Absolutely. Money is fungible. I'm sure some of the money comes from the for profit companies the Church owns and the investment returns themselves, but I'm sure a large part comes from tithes and offerings.

Do I have a problem with Ensign Peak investing the Church's reserves in stocks, bonds, private equity, real estate, etc.? Not at all. All non-profits of any substance do that with their reserves, commonly called an endowment. No organization will be able to match their inflows with their outflows. It's wise to create a reserve fund to smooth things out and plan for future needs. Not only is this smart, but it's scriptural. Read the parable of the talents. Ensign Peak and the Church are trying to be wise stewards.

Do I feel bad that the Church/Ensign Peak has amassed a large fortune in its reserve fund? No. Some people may remember that the Church almost went bankrupt in 1960's, much of that having to do with the expansion of BYU and Church Education System. We all know the story of Kirtland. I have ancestors who lost everything with the fall of the KSS. The Church in its history has experience a lot more lean years than fat years. The wealth of the Church today presents its own set of problems and criticisms, but it's a good problem to have. Much better than the alternative.

Having said that, there's no doubt that the schemes that Ensign Peak was using to hide ownership of the investments have been going on for many years and have been approved at the very top across multiple administrations. I think it was a mistake that they did this, not only because it was illegal, but because it creates trust issues. Ultimately, the SEC fine of $5 million is a rounding error for the Church today. A slap on the wrist. However, I think the Church should have been and should be transparent about what it's doing. There's lots of excuses for not being transparent, but it looks kind of fishy.

We can have lots of debates about what the Church should do with the reserve funds it has accumulated and the problems that come from this newfound prosperity, but my biggest complaint is how Church leadership has such a hard time ever admitting that they made a mistake. They push the infallibility of the brethren so much that it just looks bad. It would be so much healthier if they could just say, "look, we're humans and the Lord allows us to make mistakes sometimes, too." That's the reality, but they have a real hard time owning up to it.

Sorry for the long post.

[endlessQuestions]

I know something about these sorts of issues. Does Ensign Peak manage tithing funds? Absolutely. Money is fungible. I'm sure some of the money comes from the for profit companies the Church owns and the investment returns themselves, but I'm sure a large part comes from tithes and offerings.

Do I have a problem with Ensign Peak investing the Church's reserves in stocks, bonds, private equity, real estate, etc.? Not at all. All non-profits of any substance do that with their reserves, commonly called an endowment. No organization will be able to match their inflows with their outflows. It's wise to create a reserve fund to smooth things out and plan for future needs. Not only is this smart, but it's scriptural. Read the parable of the talents. Ensign Peak and the Church are trying to be wise stewards.

Do I feel bad that the Church/Ensign Peak has amassed a large fortune in its reserve fund? No. Some people may remember that the Church almost went bankrupt in 1960's, much of that having to do with the expansion of BYU and Church Education System. We all know the story of Kirtland. I have ancestors who lost everything with the fall of the KSS. The Church in its history has experience a lot more lean years than fat years. The wealth of the Church today presents its own set of problems and criticisms, but it's a good problem to have. Much better than the alternative.

Having said that, there's no doubt that the schemes that Ensign Peak was using to hide ownership of the investments have been going on for many years and have been approved at the very top across multiple administrations. I think it was a mistake that they did this, not only because it was illegal, but because it creates trust issues. Ultimately, the SEC fine of $5 million is a rounding error for the Church today. A slap on the wrist. However, I think the Church should have been and should be transparent about what it's doing. There's lots of excuses for not being transparent, but it looks kind of fishy.

We can have lots of debates about what the Church should do with the reserve funds it has accumulated and the problems that come from this newfound prosperity, but my biggest complaint is how Church leadership has such a hard time ever admitting that they made a mistake. They push the infallibility of the brethren so much that it just looks bad. It would be so much healthier if they could just say, "look, we're humans and the Lord allows us to make mistakes sometimes, too." That's the reality, but they have a real hard time owning up to it.

Sorry for the long post.

Thanks for bringing your expertise to the conversation, and welcome!

Here's all I care about at this point:

I think it was a mistake that they did this, not only because it was illegal, but because it creates trust issues"

I know a lot of people here aren't active members of the Church anymore, but some of us are.

Some of us have put our good name on the line defending the Church.

And what do we get in return?

Secret society members committing crimes with the tithing money of the Church.

With no apparent mechanism to hold anyone accountable, from an ecclesiastical standpoint.

I've learned to live by a simple rule:

"If it's tolerable, tolerate it. But if it's not tolerable, do something about it."

This.

Is.

Not.

Tolerable.

(In my opinion, of course).

[The Red Pill]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-new ... ed-filings

Gotta love being honest in all your doings … guess it’s ok to hide your holdings from the SEC with shell corporations and other subterfuge.

There goes another $5 million in tithing funds down the drain instead of in the mouths of the poor.

Apologists …. Go!

Tithing money is not used in Ensign Peak Investments.

They have said they use “excess tithes” for Ensign Peak Investments. It’s in the SEC document published this week. EXCESS TITHES

Sub has cognitive dissonance when it comes to the red-chair club...

RMN could double-tap a convenience store clerk in the head...and Sub would call it revelatory...

[LDS Physician]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-new ... ed-filings

Gotta love being honest in all your doings … guess it’s ok to hide your holdings from the SEC with shell corporations and other subterfuge.

There goes another $5 million in tithing funds down the drain instead of in the mouths of the poor.

Apologists …. Go!

Tithing money is not used in Ensign Peak Investments.

They have said they use “excess tithes” for Ensign Peak Investments. It’s in the SEC document published this week. EXCESS TITHES

Sub has cognitive dissonance when it comes to the red-chair club...

RMN could double-tap a convenience store clerk in the head...and Sub would call it revelatory...

“Better for a clerk to die than a whole block to dwindle in unbelief”

[endlessQuestions]

I wonder what else the church hides under shells.

Pearls of Great Price?