Where would you start looking for off grid property?

[Reluctant Watchman]

A little inspiration.

[Silver Pie]

I've been studying rammed-earth or adobe construction homes. One of the goals is that if a Gad member swung by to visit, we'd appear so poor that it wouldn't even be worth their effort to bother us. It would be an inconvenience for them to even try and take what we had.

My dream is land with a house already on it, but I'd want to try my hand (with someone who knew what they were doing) with buildings of rammed earth, cob, strawbale, underground, cave/partially in cave.

150-500 acres. Hot springs for hot water and cold springs for cold water. I know there are some such springs in parts of Arizona, Utah, Nevada, and Idaho. I'd like 200-300 acres of it wooded.

Delta County, Colorado doesn't require building permits (something like that; can build whatever you like), I think that's what I heard. Of course, the state has some requirements, like with sanitation.

Whatever you end up with, make sure you have mineral rights, water rights, and timber rights. And check the right-of-way. You need to be able to drive up to your land.

[Silver Pie]

I want skills, knowledge and tools.

Those are the real riches, in my opinion.

[Silver Pie]

From Arizona at around 100 miles south of four corners, at the border of New Mexico, all of the way north to Wyoming and even beyond, is bordered on all 4 sides by mountains. Plenty of wildlife and water, even in the desert areas. This includes the Zuni Native Americans, the Navajo, Hopi, and Utes, among others. These people inherit the earth.

As luck would have it, this is the cheapest land in the country as nobody wants it. That is why the Natives have it. It will not be devastated by a Yellowstone eruption. The air is kept clean by the mountains. All of the high desert areas have artesian springs.

I'm in southwestern Wyoming. This winter, the high temps have been 20° or more lower than normal. I would not recommend this state even though, according to some maps, we are in the Rocky Mountain area, unless you have a house built to keep you warm in winter (lots of strong south windows, overhangs in the right places, a wooded lot for fuel [not actually available in this area], triple-insulated floors/walls/ceilings, etc.).

I'm thinking Colorado, New Mexico, or Arizona.

[Silver Pie]

I was in a town in Delta County for a get-together for a few days many years ago. The house we (my dd, good friend, and I) stayed in was awesome!


That grass on the house below is the roof.

House 02.jpg (265.6 KiB) Viewed 596 times

Another view of the grassy roof:

House 04.jpg (319.72 KiB) Viewed 596 times

This is a different house that was in the area. (The car is the one I had at that time.)

House, a different one.jpg (168.98 KiB) Viewed 596 times

[Silver Pie]

There were light clouds the whole time we were there, and it was in late spring, so still cold, but the room we stayed in was warm because of the large windows. A sample of the south windows.

House 07.jpg (197.12 KiB) Viewed 591 times

A normal-size wood stove was in the dining/living area of the house. Someone kept it going all night, and it was enough to keep the place warm. The only thing I'd change is that I'd put quilted curtains over the windows to keep out the cold in the late fall/winter/early spring. I like the idea of theater grade blackout curtains, only quilt them to add insulation.

[Silver Pie]

Went to another get-together in southeastern Utah. The whole community was built into the side of a mesa. The original man used dynamite to carve out the caves, then built houses into them. When I was there, there was a whole community living there. The room I stayed in was solid rock for one or two walls, and the ceiling. It was pretty cool.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Went to another get-together in southeastern Utah. The whole community was built into the side of a mesa. The original man used dynamite to carve out the caves, then built houses into them. When I was there, there was a whole community living there. The room I stayed in was solid rock for one or two walls, and the ceiling. It was pretty cool.

Is that over by Hanksville? I know somebody who owns one of the houses in the rock. They are so cool!

And I love that Earth home!

[Silver Pie]

Is that over by Hanksville? I know somebody who owns one of the houses in the rock. They are so cool!

I think Hanksville was originally settled by some of my ancestors.

No, it wasn't Hanksville. I think it was near Moab.

And I love that Earth home!

I do too!

[Cruiserdude]

I've been pondering this idea for the last few months. Where would you begin in your search for off-grid property? You don't need to cite a specific property, but general areas of the US would be helpful. Also open to ideas outside the US.

I think these would be my basic requirements:

• 50-100 acres min (less than $100-150k for the land, I know this is a bit of a pipe dream, but I've seen a few properties around)

• Water access, preferably flowing water like a stream

• Reasonable growing season

• Wooded land for fuel

• Some pasture land for grazing

• At least 1 hour or so from any sizable city, e.g. w/ a Walmart

Fred told me about these properties in Duchesne, County UT near Starvation Reservoir I've been looking at:

https://mwranches.com/

They only have a few examples on their website - you can call and tell them what you want/size/terrain/etc. and they will show you the properties that fit your needs. They carve a driveway and pour a pad on all the properties. Utilities are close or next to many, some are way out there away from the grid. (BTW Hit Fred up for your solar power needs!!)

Prices are in the range you are looking. 1k down, in-house financing w/no bank since they own the properties - they say they finance anyone. (FoxMamma is going to challenge that and see if they really will )

Grow season and zones info:

https://garden.org/apps/calendar/?q=Duchesne%2C+UT
https://www.plantmaps.com/hardiness-zon ... ounty-utah

Nearest Walmart is down by Price 1.5 hrs away.

That's a great area, I checked them out ....I really liked the pricing there!
Be a great place to have like minded folks living around each other

[tmac]

Silver Pie, those are really cool houses. Twenty years ago I was really enamored with the idea of doing something like that, instead I utilized many of the same underground, passive solar principles, to build a passive solar, walk-out basement, with a shop building over the top of it. It has met most of our objectives.

And, I agree with you about Wyoming. The older I get, the tougher sell that is.

I venture to say that in the Intermountain West I have probably done about as much looking around for and at stuff like this as about anyone, including a ton of looking in just the past year or two, including a lot of time in Southern Idaho and the West Slope of Colorado, including Delta County.

But, in my view, the real find is probably Eastern Arizona. There are already a lot of off-grid communities there -- not all of which I would be entirely comfortable with. But there's a very small Mormon town, off the beaten path, south of Holbrook, called Woodruff, and from there southeast toward St. Johns, that I think has pretty interesting potential. And I will mention that the stake president of Holbrook Stake is a big-time prepper.

Just a couple things to consider as food for thought: Even though it's Arizona, the summers aren't necessarily any hotter than SW Wyoming, most of Utah, and say Grand Junction, CO. But the winters are generally quite a bit milder. And, again, despite the fact that it's AZ, the area gets about as much natural precipitation (or more) as any of the areas I just mentioned. And there is a good underground aquifer in that area. And, compared to almost anywhere else, the prices are probably more reasonable.

There's something about New Mexico. If you're tempted to be enchanted by it, read Wesley Rawles' state summary. At this point, having done quite a bit of looking around in NM, I have to agree with him. It's about as close as you'll come to a third world country in the Intermountain West. All you need to do to cross that threshold is be real close to a Native American Reservation (which is a completely different discussion).

At this point, if I were trying to balance as many considerations as possible, I'd be looking at Eastern Arizona -- again recognizing that there are already quite a few off-grid communities there, including some real weirdos. But there are definitely some pockets worth checking-out -- including Woodruff, etc.

[Silver Pie]

But, in my view, the real find is probably Eastern Arizona. There are already a lot of off-grid communities there -- not all of which I would be entirely comfortable with. But there's a very small Mormon town, off the beaten path, south of Holbrook, called Woodruff, and from there southeast toward St. Johns, that I think has pretty interesting potential. And I will mention that the stake president of Holbrook Stake is a big-time prepper.

Just a couple things to consider as food for thought: Even though it's Arizona, the summers aren't necessarily any hotter than SW Wyoming, most of Utah, and say Grand Junction, CO. But the winters are generally quite a bit milder. And, again, despite the fact that it's AZ, the area gets about as much natural precipitation (or more) as any of the areas I just mentioned. And there is a good underground aquifer in that area. And, compared to almost anywhere else, the prices are probably more reasonable.

There's something about New Mexico. If you're tempted to be enchanted by it, read Wesley Rawles' state summary. At this point, having done quite a bit of looking around in NM, I have to agree with him. It's about as close as you'll come to a third world country in the Intermountain West. All you need to do to cross that threshold is be real close to a Native American Reservation (which is a completely different discussion).

At this point, if I were trying to balance as many considerations as possible, I'd be looking at Eastern Arizona -- again recognizing that there are already quite a few off-grid communities there, including some real weirdos. But there are definitely some pockets worth checking-out -- including Woodruff, etc.

I've lived in Arizona. Graham County, then Show Low, then Mesa/Tempe, then back to Graham County.

Show Low, Snowflake, Woodruff, and Flagstaff are too cold for my comfort - but not -20 in the winter (which is what it hit here)!

It's hot inside this house in summer because we don't have enough insulation, nor do we have overhangs over the window to keep the summer sun out. So, it's a real bummer that we have approximately 8 months of winter and 2 or 3 of too hot on the second floor.

My favorite climate is Graham County. Sometimes you can dig and get a cold spring - and there are several hot springs. Perfect for piping into one's house (except I'd like to have a self-cleaning filter to filter out the salt and other minerals). It's also warm enough to grow watermelon and other food plants - but mid-summer is a killer for plants.

I think it was http://www.city-data.com/ we looked at before moving here (from the St. George, Utah area) and discovered it had more precipitation than any place we had lived thus far (not counting Salt Lake). That turned out to be true.

I did check the St. Johns area (not the town, but the county it's in) a few years ago. It was pretty barren, like most places I've lived. I wish I could find a place with a hundred or so acres of woodland so I could harvest wood for winter and plant my permaculture food forest amongst it.

I don't need to live in the woods; just have it nearby as part of the acreage I buy.

[Silver Pie]

Reluctant Watchman, I didn't mean to take over your thread. This topic is near and dear to my heart, and something I've been wanting for 30 years or more!

Land/acreage
Trees
Water (artesian wells/springs, year-round streams, maybe a pond)
House off the grid as much as possible (where we won't die of heat stroke in the summer nor freeze to death in the winter if there's no electricity/gas)
Permaculture
Eden gardening
and on and on.

[Silver Pie]

Twenty years ago I was really enamored with the idea of doing something like that, instead I utilized many of the same underground, passive solar principles, to build a passive solar, walk-out basement, with a shop building over the top of it. It has met most of our objectives.

This is awesome!

[tmac]

But, in my view, the real find is probably Eastern Arizona. There are already a lot of off-grid communities there -- not all of which I would be entirely comfortable with. But there's a very small Mormon town, off the beaten path, south of Holbrook, called Woodruff, and from there southeast toward St. Johns, that I think has pretty interesting potential. And I will mention that the stake president of Holbrook Stake is a big-time prepper.

Just a couple things to consider as food for thought: Even though it's Arizona, the summers aren't necessarily any hotter than SW Wyoming, most of Utah, and say Grand Junction, CO. But the winters are generally quite a bit milder. And, again, despite the fact that it's AZ, the area gets about as much natural precipitation (or more) as any of the areas I just mentioned. And there is a good underground aquifer in that area. And, compared to almost anywhere else, the prices are probably more reasonable.

There's something about New Mexico. If you're tempted to be enchanted by it, read Wesley Rawles' state summary. At this point, having done quite a bit of looking around in NM, I have to agree with him. It's about as close as you'll come to a third world country in the Intermountain West. All you need to do to cross that threshold is be real close to a Native American Reservation (which is a completely different discussion).

At this point, if I were trying to balance as many considerations as possible, I'd be looking at Eastern Arizona -- again recognizing that there are already quite a few off-grid communities there, including some real weirdos. But there are definitely some pockets worth checking-out -- including Woodruff, etc.

I've lived in Arizona. Graham County, then Show Low, then Mesa/Tempe, then back to Graham County.

Show Low, Snowflake, Woodruff, and Flagstaff are too cold for my comfort - but not -20 in the winter (which is what it hit here)!

It's hot inside this house in summer because we don't have enough insulation, nor do we have overhangs over the window to keep the summer sun out. So, it's a real bummer that we have approximately 8 months of winter and 2 or 3 of too hot on the second floor.

My favorite climate is Graham County. Sometimes you can dig and get a cold spring - and there are several hot springs. Perfect for piping into one's house (except I'd like to have a self-cleaning filter to filter out the salt and other minerals). It's also warm enough to grow watermelon and other food plants - but mid-summer is a killer for plants.

I think it was http://www.city-data.com/ we looked at before moving here (from the St. George, Utah area) and discovered it had more precipitation than any place we had lived thus far (not counting Salt Lake). That turned out to be true.

I did check the St. Johns area (not the town, but the county it's in) a few years ago. It was pretty barren, like most places I've lived. I wish I could find a place with a hundred or so acres of woodland so I could harvest wood for winter and plant my permaculture food forest amongst it.

I don't need to live in the woods; just have it nearby as part of the acreage I buy.

I agree with your basic assessment of Graham County, and the Safford area. Definitely more pleasant in the winter, and even down towards Wilcox, and Aravaipa Canyon, etc., where one of my friends bought a place

And the concept of milder winter is definitely relative, based on what you’re comparing to. But in my multiple trips to EA this winter it was definitely more pleasant than where I was coming from, and almost anywhere else I’ve been this winter.

And some places, like St. John’s, are definitely more desolate looking, without much in the way of “woods.”

If money were no object, there would definitely be a lot more possibilities. . . . But I am not a real fan of humidity, etc., and I still put some stock in the inundation map you shared, so as opposed to say, Missouri, I prefer areas with a little more elevation, surrounded by mountains, etc.

As I told someone in a recent PM exchange, though, there is no perfect place or perfect location. At this point, I'm more interested in just trying to figure out where God wants me to be, regardless of imperfections of all kinds, and what He wants me to be doing. If I can just figure that out, I have to have faith that He'll fill-in the rest of the gaps.

[Cruiserdude]

But, in my view, the real find is probably Eastern Arizona. There are already a lot of off-grid communities there -- not all of which I would be entirely comfortable with. But there's a very small Mormon town, off the beaten path, south of Holbrook, called Woodruff, and from there southeast toward St. Johns, that I think has pretty interesting potential. And I will mention that the stake president of Holbrook Stake is a big-time prepper.

Just a couple things to consider as food for thought: Even though it's Arizona, the summers aren't necessarily any hotter than SW Wyoming, most of Utah, and say Grand Junction, CO. But the winters are generally quite a bit milder. And, again, despite the fact that it's AZ, the area gets about as much natural precipitation (or more) as any of the areas I just mentioned. And there is a good underground aquifer in that area. And, compared to almost anywhere else, the prices are probably more reasonable.

There's something about New Mexico. If you're tempted to be enchanted by it, read Wesley Rawles' state summary. At this point, having done quite a bit of looking around in NM, I have to agree with him. It's about as close as you'll come to a third world country in the Intermountain West. All you need to do to cross that threshold is be real close to a Native American Reservation (which is a completely different discussion).

At this point, if I were trying to balance as many considerations as possible, I'd be looking at Eastern Arizona -- again recognizing that there are already quite a few off-grid communities there, including some real weirdos. But there are definitely some pockets worth checking-out -- including Woodruff, etc.

I've lived in Arizona. Graham County, then Show Low, then Mesa/Tempe, then back to Graham County.

Show Low, Snowflake, Woodruff, and Flagstaff are too cold for my comfort - but not -20 in the winter (which is what it hit here)!

It's hot inside this house in summer because we don't have enough insulation, nor do we have overhangs over the window to keep the summer sun out. So, it's a real bummer that we have approximately 8 months of winter and 2 or 3 of too hot on the second floor.

My favorite climate is Graham County. Sometimes you can dig and get a cold spring - and there are several hot springs. Perfect for piping into one's house (except I'd like to have a self-cleaning filter to filter out the salt and other minerals). It's also warm enough to grow watermelon and other food plants - but mid-summer is a killer for plants.

I think it was http://www.city-data.com/ we looked at before moving here (from the St. George, Utah area) and discovered it had more precipitation than any place we had lived thus far (not counting Salt Lake). That turned out to be true.

I did check the St. Johns area (not the town, but the county it's in) a few years ago. It was pretty barren, like most places I've lived. I wish I could find a place with a hundred or so acres of woodland so I could harvest wood for winter and plant my permaculture food forest amongst it.

I don't need to live in the woods; just have it nearby as part of the acreage I buy.

You've gotta be tough to live in Wyoming.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Reluctant Watchman, I didn't mean to take over your thread. This topic is near and dear to my heart, and something I've been wanting for 30 years or more!

Land/acreage
Trees
Water (artesian wells/springs, year-round streams, maybe a pond)
House off the grid as much as possible (where we won't die of heat stroke in the summer nor freeze to death in the winter if there's no electricity/gas)
Permaculture
Eden gardening
and on and on.

I’ve greatly appreciated the insights and discussion. Thank you!

[Fred]

From Arizona at around 100 miles south of four corners, at the border of New Mexico, all of the way north to Wyoming and even beyond, is bordered on all 4 sides by mountains. Plenty of wildlife and water, even in the desert areas. This includes the Zuni Native Americans, the Navajo, Hopi, and Utes, among others. These people inherit the earth.

As luck would have it, this is the cheapest land in the country as nobody wants it. That is why the Natives have it. It will not be devastated by a Yellowstone eruption. The air is kept clean by the mountains. All of the high desert areas have artesian springs.

I'm in southwestern Wyoming. This winter, the high temps have been 20° or more lower than normal. I would not recommend this state even though, according to some maps, we are in the Rocky Mountain area, unless you have a house built to keep you warm in winter (lots of strong south windows, overhangs in the right places, a wooded lot for fuel [not actually available in this area], triple-insulated floors/walls/ceilings, etc.).

I'm thinking Colorado, New Mexico, or Arizona.

I suggested a line straight north from Witch Well, Arizona. That line borders Utah and Colorado. You are probably closer to Idaho Falls or Logan. Not the area that inherits the earth. There will likely be survivors all over, but inside the Rocky Mountains has abundant protection and resources.

[Great8]

We 'inspirationally' bought a small property in Star Valley, WY. Never had been there beforehand. Felt impressed. We learned after buying it that it butts up against the national forest so free roaming if xxxx hits the fan.....we just need to find a reliable builder...

[marc]

[tmac]

Really good video, and, in my view, spot-on for this whole discussion — especially the first part. But, as previously alluded to, the older I get, the less attractive I find Wyoming and the Dakotas -- especially this winter. In my view, the right mindset and a more advanced skill set is definitely required in some of the more Northern areas. I even have Amish friends in Montana who get very tired of the long, hard, dreary, overcast winters.

[tmac]

Rob Smith mentioned it in the video, but only vaguely referenced prophesies, etc., when briefly discussing the perceived advantage of being in the Rocky Mountains. So, although I have asked this question elsewhere, I am again seeking input about what actual strategic advantage the mountains provide. Thoughts?

[Fred]

For those wanting cheap property in east Arizona. See http://www.witchwellestates.com/ His name is Ron. He has a hundred or so properties. I sold him my place when I left. I had 20 acres. The land is between St Johns and Sanders. The only commercial establishment is the Witch Well Tavern. A lot of Zuni customers as alcohol is not allowed on the res. It is desert, but there are many artesian springs. The cows know where they all are. Open range.

[marc]

Rob Smith mentioned it in the video, but only vaguely referenced prophesies, etc., when briefly discussing the perceived advantage of being in the Rocky Mountains. So, although I have asked this question elsewhere, I am again seeking input about what actual strategic advantage the mountains provide. Thoughts?

My guess would be cleaner air with higher elevations, less chances of floodwaters reaching higher elevations, etc. We're more conditioned to higher elevations and have stronger lungs than those living closer to sea level.

[tmac]

For those wanting cheap property in east Arizona. See http://www.witchwellestates.com/ His name is Ron. He has a hundred or so properties. I sold him my place when I left. I had 20 acres. The land is between St Johns and Sanders. The only commercial establishment is the Witch Well Tavern. A lot of Zuni customers as alcohol is not allowed on the res. It is desert, but there are many artesian springs. The cows know where they all are. Open range.

I actually think that particular area is pretty interesting, and overlooked by most people. In terms of a multitude of considerations, including climate, price, etc., I definitely think it's worth a look. At this stage of my life, I definitely think I would rather be there than most places in Montana or the Dakotas. And, to be completely honest, the landscape is not all that unlike the Dakotas. Probably the biggest reason most people have not considered it is because they have never been there. On my end, though, I consider Navajo and Apache Counties, Arizona to be the SW American Redoubt -- with a whole, whole lot more sunshine!