LDS Freedom Forum

I think we as Christians can all agree on the meaning of the lord’s parable.

10 Christians (Virgins) that believe and have flaming testimonies that Jesus (Bridegroom) died for our sins. 5 of them won’t accept the laws of his kingdom because they don’t know him and he doesn’t know them. The other 5 fully accept and embrace him and he knows them.

Feel free to add or change my simple description of this parable.

My point of this post is more about the timing of these Christians. If we read it literally it is the people who are here right before the lord’s second and final coming.

Timing, when will this happen, what has these 10 Christians been through?

Civil war, yes, Matthew 10:34-36, Luke 12:49-53. World war, yes, Jospeh Smith complete war prophecy of 1832. Armageddon, yes, Rev 16:16.

These Virgins have been tried and harden through the worst time of this world’s Biblical existence and should be purified but half of them will reject him still.

Feel free to join in with your thoughts.

The oil in their lamps is the Holy Ghost. It is what gives light/fire. It was at Gethsemane (oil press) where Jesus' body was pressed that anoints us with His atoning blood.

D&C 45:56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

When Christ returns in glory, those who haven't been baptized with fire will be consumed and burned as stubble. Those who have been baptized with fire will add to His glorious flame that will burn the Earth as an oven.

marc wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 11:27 am The oil in their lamps is the Holy Ghost. It is what gives light/fire. It was at Gethsemane (oil press) where Jesus' body was pressed that anoints us with His atoning blood.

D&C 45:56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

When Christ returns in glory, those who haven't been baptized with fire will be consumed and burned as stubble. Those who have been baptized with fire will add to His glorious flame that will burn the Earth as an oven.

Marc, where did you get the last statement that those that haven't been baptized with flre will be consumed at the start of the millennium? This is incorrect. that would allow only the elect and those of CK on the earth during the millennium and that isn't true, not by bible nor by JS teachings. Only the wicked will be destroyed, now whether the wicked are only those who are SoP or include telestial that is a good question. But never is baptism by water let alone by fire mentioned with second coming. Teachings of men w/o scripture.

Speaking of virgins... how does this apply to polygamy?










That was for you Pazooka!

TheDuke wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 11:32 am

marc wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 11:27 am The oil in their lamps is the Holy Ghost. It is what gives light/fire. It was at Gethsemane (oil press) where Jesus' body was pressed that anoints us with His atoning blood.

D&C 45:56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

When Christ returns in glory, those who haven't been baptized with fire will be consumed and burned as stubble. Those who have been baptized with fire will add to His glorious flame that will burn the Earth as an oven.

Marc, where did you get the last statement that those that haven't been baptized with flre will be consumed at the start of the millennium? This is incorrect. that would allow only the elect and those of CK on the earth during the millennium and that isn't true, not by bible nor by JS teachings. Only the wicked will be destroyed, now whether the wicked are only those who are SoP or include telestial that is a good question. But never is baptism by water let alone by fire mentioned with second coming. Teachings of men w/o scripture.

Ok...let's go back to using hyperbole then.

Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. (JST Matt. 25:11 … Verily I say unto you, Ye know me not.)

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Maybe someone got in some other way, though:

Matthew 22:11 ¶ And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

marc wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 11:48 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 11:32 am

marc wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 11:27 am The oil in their lamps is the Holy Ghost. It is what gives light/fire. It was at Gethsemane (oil press) where Jesus' body was pressed that anoints us with His atoning blood.

D&C 45:56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

When Christ returns in glory, those who haven't been baptized with fire will be consumed and burned as stubble. Those who have been baptized with fire will add to His glorious flame that will burn the Earth as an oven.

Marc, where did you get the last statement that those that haven't been baptized with flre will be consumed at the start of the millennium? This is incorrect. that would allow only the elect and those of CK on the earth during the millennium and that isn't true, not by bible nor by JS teachings. Only the wicked will be destroyed, now whether the wicked are only those who are SoP or include telestial that is a good question. But never is baptism by water let alone by fire mentioned with second coming. Teachings of men w/o scripture.

Ok...let's go back to using hyperbole then.

Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. (JST Matt. 25:11 … Verily I say unto you, Ye know me not.)

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Maybe someone got in some other way, though:

Matthew 22:11 ¶ And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There is no reference to the literal second coming (I say literal because many say everyone has a personal one, including those who died a 100 years ago), nothing about baptism, let alone baptism of fire.

What you're saying is if you come to the party without your temple garments then you'll become a son of perdition? If your taking this literally that is!

There is nothing literal in this parable. It is a parable after all.

It is about being prepared and accepting Christ and being ready, i.e. enduring to the end.

He that hath ears, let him hear.

Excellent discussion.

I understand what Marc and TheDuke are saying but I think the point of the parable is that all the virgins have been baptized by fire and water. This is why all 10 have enough oil to burn the lamp. Only 5 have sufficient oil to go with the bridegroom.

Only 5 actually know the Lord and Savior, the others know what they want to know about their version of their Lord. Which is liken unto the house of Judah when the Lord started his prophetic mission. They had a lot lower percentage then 50% so if that makes anyone feel better about this up coming event.

In other words, the Holy Ghost has taught them as much as he can and 5 accept only enough to burn their lamp but they reject the whole gospel which would fill the vessel.

All ten were virtuous, but only five had the Holy Ghost because only they had oil.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

When Christ/bridegroom returns in glory with all the powers of heaven (angels, Zion, Enoch, etc), the veil will be removed (marriage symbolism), Earth will be baptized with fire and become Terrestrial. Those who cannot abide the flame will be consumed.

marc wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:43 pm All ten were virtuous, but only five had the Holy Ghost because only they had oil.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

When Christ/bridegroom returns in glory with all the powers of heaven (angels, Zion, Enoch, etc), the veil will be removed (marriage symbolism), Earth will be baptized with fire and become Terrestrial. Those who cannot abide the flame will be consumed.

How did the lamp burn without the wick being soaked? Have you tried to burn a dry wick?

Just a thought

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:48 pm

marc wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:43 pm All ten were virtuous, but only five had the Holy Ghost because only they had oil.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

When Christ/bridegroom returns in glory with all the powers of heaven (angels, Zion, Enoch, etc), the veil will be removed (marriage symbolism), Earth will be baptized with fire and become Terrestrial. Those who cannot abide the flame will be consumed.

How did the lamp burn without the wick being soaked? Have you tried to burn a dry wick?

Just a thought

Indeed. Foolish virgins!!

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Think about this for a while. Ponder this whole discussion over the weekend.

marc wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:56 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:48 pm

marc wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:43 pm All ten were virtuous, but only five had the Holy Ghost because only they had oil.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

When Christ/bridegroom returns in glory with all the powers of heaven (angels, Zion, Enoch, etc), the veil will be removed (marriage symbolism), Earth will be baptized with fire and become Terrestrial. Those who cannot abide the flame will be consumed.

How did the lamp burn without the wick being soaked? Have you tried to burn a dry wick?

Just a thought

Indeed. Foolish virgins!!

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Think about this for a while. Ponder this whole discussion over the weekend.

I have, I think it’s insulting to think someone took a lamp with a dry wick when there only practical source of light was a oil filled lamp. How stupid do we think the Lord’s audience is?

I bet many people went outside with a lamp that had no oil in its vessel back then thinking the oil that is on the wick is enough. I bet it was a common mistake.

The point is that none of the ten virgins knew at what time of night the Bridegroom would come. The foolish virgins had whatever little oil their small lamps might contain. The wise virgins carried an extra vessel filled with oil in case the Bridegroom came very late into the night. In other words, do not run out of oil. Ever.

No oil? No fire. No fire? Darkness for you!

marc wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 1:12 pm The point is that none of the ten virgins knew at what time of night the Bridegroom would come. The foolish virgins had whatever little oil their small lamps might contain. The wise virgins carried an extra vessel filled with oil in case the Bridegroom came very late at night or the wee hours of the morning. In other words, do not run out of oil. Ever.

No oil? No fire. No fire? Darkness for you!

This is the point, they had just enough of the Holy Ghost for a testimony and to them they didn’t need anymore. I was talking to a friend who is a Baptist about Luke 12:56-57 and he said he will worry when the temple is built. He has enough oil to light his testimony of his savior Jesus Christ, but….

There is a reason Jesus grouped three parables together in this chapter.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

There is a process by which one must acquire oil. It requires work. But we don't do works to be saved. We do works because we are converted to Him and because we love as God loves. The amount of oil you accumulate in your "vessel" is indicative of how much of the Spirit you have...the fruits of the Spirit like LOVE...or lack thereof:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:33 pm
I understand what Marc and TheDuke are saying but I think the point of the parable is that all the virgins have been baptized by fire and water. This is why all 10 have enough oil to burn the lamp. Only 5 have sufficient oil to go with the bridegroom.

Not possible. All those that have been baptized by fire (and water) are elect. The elect inherit the CK. Jesus says he lost "not one" of the elect. And that "nearly the elect may be deceived" but not the elect. virgins just means followers, that is the title for the women coming to the bridal party that are single. Some are prepared for the time others are not prepared. Prepared means having a testimony. Sure, that has a relationship to the spirit or HG. but it doesn't come in levels and dipsticks to measure the oil. It is just a parable of followers that really do not endure to the end, or like Alma's seeds that grew but died out. Take you comparable parable. The only difference here is made of the number given. I.e. many see it to mean actually 50% of those who are prepared followers earlier endure to the end.

Let those that eyes, see, let those that read, read. Add what you want, but it is your teachings then and are good for you on a personal level but don't ring true Marc. Silly response telling me to see......... because you can......... yet you didn't provide any scriptural evidence to where the baptism of fire came from, other than opinion. Which is fine BTW but should be stated as opinion and not attacking a diverse opinion.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 11:34 am Speaking of virgins... how does this apply to polygamy?










That was for you Pazooka!

I'll bite. There are four major reasons why this parable is about polygamy:

• The concept that the virgins were bridesmaids are so laughably anachronistic that the chances Jesus was meaning bridesmaids as a liberally corrupt version of Roman male witnesses at a wedding while preaching a sermon to Jews is virtually impossible.
• Furthermore, historically the wedding party travelled with the bridegroom or were already at the wedding venue (servants especially were already there making ready the feast), and the only people "carried away" by the groom was the bride; it was the intended of the groom that had to keep her/their lamps ready for his arrival.
• Furthermore furthermore, the word used in the Bible is specifically an unwed maiden, or virgin, which is what the bride should be (her friends would not need to be virgins to come to the party).
• And lastly, the kingdom is what is compared to the virgins in the parable, which makes sense considering all the other scriptural allusions to Christ being the groom and the kingdom being his bride; what this parable provides is additional insight that the Lord's betrothed, the kingdom, will be partly unworthy and shut out of his presence when he comes.

All in all, the parable of the 10 virgins makes the most sense to Jesus' Jewish audience as imagery of a polygamous wedding because it was acceptable and easily understood by all at the time. In fact, Jesus was one, making the symbolism even less surprising to those around him.

#sarcasm?

"Matthew 22:11 ¶ And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
"
the ultimate wedding garment should be calling%election-made-sure stuff ..

14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

jst 22:14 For many are called, but few chosen; wherefore all do not have on the wedding garment.

so, at that time of ten virgins one half are proved as called and chosen ..

TheDuke wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 6:10 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:33 pm
I understand what Marc and TheDuke are saying but I think the point of the parable is that all the virgins have been baptized by fire and water. This is why all 10 have enough oil to burn the lamp. Only 5 have sufficient oil to go with the bridegroom.

Not possible. All those that have been baptized by fire (and water) are elect. The elect inherit the CK. Jesus says he lost "not one" of the elect. And that "nearly the elect may be deceived" but not the elect. virgins just means followers, that is the title for the women coming to the bridal party that are single. Some are prepared for the time others are not prepared. Prepared means having a testimony. Sure, that has a relationship to the spirit or HG. but it doesn't come in levels and dipsticks to measure the oil. It is just a parable of followers that really do not endure to the end, or like Alma's seeds that grew but died out. Take you comparable parable. The only difference here is made of the number given. I.e. many see it to mean actually 50% of those who are prepared followers earlier endure to the end.

Let those that eyes, see, let those that read, read. Add what you want, but it is your teachings then and are good for you on a personal level but don't ring true Marc. Silly response telling me to see......... because you can......... yet you didn't provide any scriptural evidence to where the baptism of fire came from, other than opinion. Which is fine BTW but should be stated as opinion and not attacking a diverse opinion.

Yeah, I forgot about the levels and dipsticks. Sorry.

This has been a topic on my mind before I started this thread in Feb 23.

As disciples of the Lord, he has instructed us to know him and know his parables, Matthew 13:11-12

Through much prayer and pondering these last couple of months, I have received my answer to this parable.

Recently in other threads, I have brought up several times this parable of the 10 virgins. I have been met with some nays, Ransomme and Alexander. The discussion with them helps strengthen my testimony of this parable. The following is what I replied to Edavid


One thing most don’t understand about that parable is the representation of the light.

We all know what the oil (in the vessel) is, reading the scriptures, missionary work, experiences of listening to the Holy Ghost and acting on them and etc. etc.

What is the light? I hear many interpretations of the light. No one is harsh enough to say what the Holy Ghost has told me.

The light is the baptism of fire, the light could not be lite if the wick wasn’t wet with oil, wetting the wick with oil is the baptism by water.

This parable is talking about a marriage of him to his disciples that are baptized by the Holy Ghost, and still half of them don’t know him(JST) and won’t find the way before it’s too late.

The lord gave a parable about his elect being sealed to him by telling us a story about a polygamist marriage…..

The irony.

marc wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 11:48 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 11:32 am

marc wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 11:27 am The oil in their lamps is the Holy Ghost. It is what gives light/fire. It was at Gethsemane (oil press) where Jesus' body was pressed that anoints us with His atoning blood.

D&C 45:56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

When Christ returns in glory, those who haven't been baptized with fire will be consumed and burned as stubble. Those who have been baptized with fire will add to His glorious flame that will burn the Earth as an oven.

Marc, where did you get the last statement that those that haven't been baptized with flre will be consumed at the start of the millennium? This is incorrect. that would allow only the elect and those of CK on the earth during the millennium and that isn't true, not by bible nor by JS teachings. Only the wicked will be destroyed, now whether the wicked are only those who are SoP or include telestial that is a good question. But never is baptism by water let alone by fire mentioned with second coming. Teachings of men w/o scripture.

Ok...let's go back to using hyperbole then.

Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. (JST Matt. 25:11 … Verily I say unto you, Ye know me not.)

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Maybe someone got in some other way, though:

Matthew 22:11 ¶ And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Marc, I agree and disagree with this position. The parable of the marriage feast refers to the final judgement, I believe.

The parable of the virgins refers to the members of Christ's Church, some who have been deceived and some who did take the Holy Spirit as their guide. Only those who have taken Christ as their guide will be allowed into the Millennium.

However, it is recorded that Joseph Smith taught that there would be missionary work during the Millennium, so it seems to me that people of good will who are worthy of at least a terrestrial glory will also be preserved on the earth. These are they who haven't made covenants that they haven't kept and are honorable in their actions with their fellow man.

Many of them will be gathered to Zion before the Second Coming, but if Joseph is to be believed then it seems that not all of them will. In their case, it seems that it must needs be that servants with sufficient power are sent to protect them during that day.

(I'm sure that Rob teaches something on this, but I haven't seen in his books. However, I have not received a definitive witness that Rob is a true servant of God, yet. And in any case, the command is not to take any man for our guide, for the Holy Ghost is the guide, although a man can teach things which, if applied, can bring the Holy Ghost into our lives.)

Nothing from the text indicates the bridegroom is marrying the virgins.

To focus on if it is promoting polygamy (which it isn’t) distracts us from the intent and meaning of the parable.

Alexander wrote: ↑September 21st, 2023, 1:01 pm Nothing from the text indicates the bridegroom is marrying the virgins.

Are we the bride of Christ or are we not?

We are the virgins in the parable.

Luke wrote: ↑September 21st, 2023, 3:52 pm

Alexander wrote: ↑September 21st, 2023, 1:01 pm Nothing from the text indicates the bridegroom is marrying the virgins.

Are we the bride of Christ or are we not?

We are the virgins in the parable.

You’re conflating two distinct parables bud.

Show from the text the virgins married the bridegroom.