LDS Freedom Forum

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 10:58 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 4:54 am

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 26th, 2023, 11:10 pm

I believe with all 10 are virgins all have received the baptism of fire [justification] but only 5 received their baptism of the holy spirit [sanctification]

As I see it every part of the Doctrine of Christ [the Messiah] is connected to His law / Torah.
A Repenting and returning to the law / Torah.
-B Baptism of water is a witness of covenant already made to keep all of His law / Torah.
-B Baptism of fire is a witness you have been judged and found with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and you are then cleansed of your past sins and have been justified by the law / Torah because of Yeshua’s merits.
A Baptism of the Holy Spirit is sanctification by the law / Torah and have it written on your heart and you seek to sin no more and have the express image of Yeshua in your countenance.
Sometimes the Doctrine of Christ [the Messiah] includes enduring to the end which is keeping the commandments to the end of your life even when the world will judge you negatively for doing so. Other times it will include speaking with the tongue of angels which is simply preaching and teaching the law / Torah and calling people to repentance which is telling them to return to YHWH’s law / Torah.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/10/05/all- ... o-chiasmi/

I don't disagree. I would suggest not referring to Torah as the law though. IMO that is too narrow a meaning. Torah is the instruction, guidance that God gives us. It's His counsel, and commandments. We could call it the Way.

The Hebrew word torah literally means direction or instruction. The root, yod-resh-hey (ירה), originally likely meant to throw or shoot an arrow. The noun torah is rendered in a causative conjugation, which is just a way of saying that it literally means to cause something (or someone) to move straight and true. (Myjewishlearning.com)

And I think it's also important to point out how to get the oil. I think that these verses tie things together nicely, including repentance, Torah, Zion, etc.

1 John 2
1 ...But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One,
2 and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world.
3 Now by this we know that we have come to know God: if we keep his commandments.
4 The one who says "I have come to know God" and yet does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in such a person.
5 But whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in him.
6 The one who says he resides in God ought himself to walk just as Jesus walked

It is instruction, but it is also the law. In my mind it's the same thing. In English translations of the Bible it's translated as law, in the Jewish translations it's translated as instructions. I say it's all the words of YHWH that is eternal.

Ok. Even though I understand, I don't think that is what people think when they hear "law". It has certain connotations in English that are undesirable. Personally, I think that "law" is a bad translation.

I felt enlightened while considering the name of God, and Jesus' favorite self reference of Son of Man. And since that time the Spirit had reinforced that concept many times

In brief...

JST Genesis 7
42 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name also. Wherefore, I can stretch forth my hands and hold all the creations which I have made, and mine eye can pierce them also.

I think the Gospel is one of paradoxes , push and pull, etc. And that's highlighted here.
Holiness vs Counsel
Holiness = being separate or set apart
Counsel/Council = Advice (instruction)/from con- ‘together’ + calare ‘summon, assemble'

We are separated from God, yet He instructs how to return to Him.

And that brings us to Torah. To me law doesn't fit well in many contexts and situations, whereas counsel, instruction, teachings apply much better.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 10:59 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 5:09 am

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 26th, 2023, 11:10 pm

I believe with all 10 are virgins all have received the baptism of fire [justification] but only 5 received their baptism of the holy spirit [sanctification]

As I see it every part of the Doctrine of Christ [the Messiah] is connected to His law / Torah.
A Repenting and returning to the law / Torah.
-B Baptism of water is a witness of covenant already made to keep all of His law / Torah.
-B Baptism of fire is a witness you have been judged and found with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and you are then cleansed of your past sins and have been justified by the law / Torah because of Yeshua’s merits.
A Baptism of the Holy Spirit is sanctification by the law / Torah and have it written on your heart and you seek to sin no more and have the express image of Yeshua in your countenance.
Sometimes the Doctrine of Christ [the Messiah] includes enduring to the end which is keeping the commandments to the end of your life even when the world will judge you negatively for doing so. Other times it will include speaking with the tongue of angels which is simply preaching and teaching the law / Torah and calling people to repentance which is telling them to return to YHWH’s law / Torah.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/10/05/all- ... o-chiasmi/

And what about, the base oil in the lamp being the light of Christ...

The light of Yeshua is Torah. OT defines the light as Torah. https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/10/05/all- ... o-chiasmi/ Yeshua has light because He kept Torah.

I'll read it, but I don't expect it to actually be the case.

Does the Spirit of Truth keep Torah?

Do you consider Torah to include all truth or is it just law given to us?

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:31 am

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 10:58 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 4:54 am

I don't disagree. I would suggest not referring to Torah as the law though. IMO that is too narrow a meaning. Torah is the instruction, guidance that God gives us. It's His counsel, and commandments. We could call it the Way.

The Hebrew word torah literally means direction or instruction. The root, yod-resh-hey (ירה), originally likely meant to throw or shoot an arrow. The noun torah is rendered in a causative conjugation, which is just a way of saying that it literally means to cause something (or someone) to move straight and true. (Myjewishlearning.com)

And I think it's also important to point out how to get the oil. I think that these verses tie things together nicely, including repentance, Torah, Zion, etc.

1 John 2
1 ...But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One,
2 and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world.
3 Now by this we know that we have come to know God: if we keep his commandments.
4 The one who says "I have come to know God" and yet does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in such a person.
5 But whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in him.
6 The one who says he resides in God ought himself to walk just as Jesus walked

It is instruction, but it is also the law. In my mind it's the same thing. In English translations of the Bible it's translated as law, in the Jewish translations it's translated as instructions. I say it's all the words of YHWH that is eternal.

Ok. Even though I understand, I don't think that is what people think when they hear "law". It has certain connotations in English that are undesirable. Personally, I think that "law" is a bad translation.

I felt enlightened while considering the name of God, and Jesus' favorite self reference of Son of Man. And since that time the Spirit had reinforced that concept many times

In brief...

JST Genesis 7
42 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name also. Wherefore, I can stretch forth my hands and hold all the creations which I have made, and mine eye can pierce them also.

I think the Gospel is one of paradoxes , push and pull, etc. And that's highlighted here.
Holiness vs Counsel
Holiness = being separate or set apart
Counsel/Council = Advice (instruction)/from con- ‘together’ + calare ‘summon, assemble'

We are separated from God, yet He instructs how to return to Him.

And that brings us to Torah. To me law doesn't fit well in many contexts and situations, whereas counsel, instruction, teachings apply much better.

To be honest they have an aversion to them because they have no light in them according to Isaiah anyways.

I don't believe the Gospel or any word of YHWH is a paradox. Paradox is contradictions things people don't know how to resolve. I see YHWH's ways as simple, easy and consistant and connected.

The important thing about Torah is now what you call it, but that you strive to keep it as Nephi did, because the BoM shows it's still valid after Yeshua's death and resurrection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgUl1lc ... n&index=35

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:36 am

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 10:59 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 5:09 am

And what about, the base oil in the lamp being the light of Christ...

The light of Yeshua is Torah. OT defines the light as Torah. https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/10/05/all- ... o-chiasmi/ Yeshua has light because He kept Torah.

I'll read it, but I don't expect it to actually be the case.

Does the Spirit of Truth keep Torah?

Do you consider Torah to include all truth or is it just law given to us?

I quote OT passages showing that it is, and show how that understanding makes other passages such as Moroni 7 make sense. https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/10/05/all- ... o-chiasmi/

What do you define the Spirit of Truth as?

Torah has many meanings to it. But ultimately it's is every word of YHWH that is eternal that was not a punishment.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 1:12 am

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:31 am

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 10:58 pm

It is instruction, but it is also the law. In my mind it's the same thing. In English translations of the Bible it's translated as law, in the Jewish translations it's translated as instructions. I say it's all the words of YHWH that is eternal.

Ok. Even though I understand, I don't think that is what people think when they hear "law". It has certain connotations in English that are undesirable. Personally, I think that "law" is a bad translation.

I felt enlightened while considering the name of God, and Jesus' favorite self reference of Son of Man. And since that time the Spirit had reinforced that concept many times

In brief...

JST Genesis 7
42 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name also. Wherefore, I can stretch forth my hands and hold all the creations which I have made, and mine eye can pierce them also.

I think the Gospel is one of paradoxes , push and pull, etc. And that's highlighted here.
Holiness vs Counsel
Holiness = being separate or set apart
Counsel/Council = Advice (instruction)/from con- ‘together’ + calare ‘summon, assemble'

We are separated from God, yet He instructs how to return to Him.

And that brings us to Torah. To me law doesn't fit well in many contexts and situations, whereas counsel, instruction, teachings apply much better.

To be honest they have an aversion to them because they have no light in them according to Isaiah anyways.

I don't believe the Gospel or any word of YHWH is a paradox. Paradox is contradictions things people don't know how to resolve. I see YHWH's ways as simple, easy and consistant and connected.

The important thing about Torah is now what you call it, but that you strive to keep it as Nephi did, because the BoM shows it's still valid after Yeshua's death and resurrection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgUl1lc ... n&index=35

Paradox is not something that doesn't fit. A paradox is something that is only "seemingly absurd or contradictory, which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true."

It is the same principle as 'opposition in all things'. It provides contrast and resistance. Contrast and resistance help perception and growth.

The paradoxes in the Gospel are not at odds, they are yin and yang, push and pull, etc. They provide relief, definition to reality.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 1:14 am

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:36 am

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 10:59 pm

The light of Yeshua is Torah. OT defines the light as Torah. https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/10/05/all- ... o-chiasmi/ Yeshua has light because He kept Torah.

I'll read it, but I don't expect it to actually be the case.

Does the Spirit of Truth keep Torah?

Do you consider Torah to include all truth or is it just law given to us?

I quote OT passages showing that it is, and show how that understanding makes other passages such as Moroni 7 make sense. https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/10/05/all- ... o-chiasmi/

What do you define the Spirit of Truth as?

Torah has many meanings to it. But ultimately it's is every word of YHWH that is eternal that was not a punishment.

The Spirit of Truth is a title/role of the Holy Spirit

Torah is God's counsel, His love, His word and Word, the way, the truth and the life.

D&C 84
44 For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.

Genesis 3 (JST)
30 For as I, the LORD God, liveth, even so my words cannot return void, for as they go forth out of my mouth, they must be fulfilled.

Isaiah 48
3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

Isaiah 55
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

D&C 29
30 But remember that all my judgments are not given unto men; and as the words have gone forth out of my mouth even so shall they be fulfilled, that the first shall be last, and that the last shall be first in all things whatsoever I have created by the word of my power, which is the power of my Spirit.

It's what comes from God's heart, His love
Matthew 15
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

And it absolutely includes punishment.
Hebrews 12
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

And every law has a blessing and a punishment

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 5:49 am

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 1:12 am

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:31 am

Ok. Even though I understand, I don't think that is what people think when they hear "law". It has certain connotations in English that are undesirable. Personally, I think that "law" is a bad translation.

I felt enlightened while considering the name of God, and Jesus' favorite self reference of Son of Man. And since that time the Spirit had reinforced that concept many times

In brief...

JST Genesis 7
42 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name also. Wherefore, I can stretch forth my hands and hold all the creations which I have made, and mine eye can pierce them also.

I think the Gospel is one of paradoxes , push and pull, etc. And that's highlighted here.
Holiness vs Counsel
Holiness = being separate or set apart
Counsel/Council = Advice (instruction)/from con- ‘together’ + calare ‘summon, assemble'

We are separated from God, yet He instructs how to return to Him.

And that brings us to Torah. To me law doesn't fit well in many contexts and situations, whereas counsel, instruction, teachings apply much better.

To be honest they have an aversion to them because they have no light in them according to Isaiah anyways.

I don't believe the Gospel or any word of YHWH is a paradox. Paradox is contradictions things people don't know how to resolve. I see YHWH's ways as simple, easy and consistant and connected.

The important thing about Torah is now what you call it, but that you strive to keep it as Nephi did, because the BoM shows it's still valid after Yeshua's death and resurrection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgUl1lc ... n&index=35

Paradox is not something that doesn't fit. A paradox is something that is only "seemingly absurd or contradictory, which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true."

It is the same principle as 'opposition in all things'. It provides contrast and resistance. Contrast and resistance help perception and growth.

The paradoxes in the Gospel are not at odds, they are yin and yang, push and pull, etc. They provide relief, definition to reality.

Paradox comes from not understanding, and you don't grow in truth when you don't understand.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 11:04 am

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 5:49 am

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 1:12 am

To be honest they have an aversion to them because they have no light in them according to Isaiah anyways.

I don't believe the Gospel or any word of YHWH is a paradox. Paradox is contradictions things people don't know how to resolve. I see YHWH's ways as simple, easy and consistant and connected.

The important thing about Torah is now what you call it, but that you strive to keep it as Nephi did, because the BoM shows it's still valid after Yeshua's death and resurrection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgUl1lc ... n&index=35

Paradox is not something that doesn't fit. A paradox is something that is only "seemingly absurd or contradictory, which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true."

It is the same principle as 'opposition in all things'. It provides contrast and resistance. Contrast and resistance help perception and growth.

The paradoxes in the Gospel are not at odds, they are yin and yang, push and pull, etc. They provide relief, definition to reality.

Paradox comes from not understanding, and you don't grow in truth when you don't understand.

Precisely, at first it seems absurd or contradictory until one seeks, asks and knocks.

Look at the definition again..."seemingly absurd or contradictory, which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true."

A Gospel of paradoxes means that it's well founded and true, but often enough at first glance appears to be absurd or contradictory.

Anyhow, I still humbly submit that Torah is much more rich and deep than "law". IMO saying Law is limiting in concept and scope.

I mainly broached the subject because I think it will be easier (and more accurate) when teaching others about Torah.

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 11:48 am

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 11:04 am

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 5:49 am

Paradox is not something that doesn't fit. A paradox is something that is only "seemingly absurd or contradictory, which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true."

It is the same principle as 'opposition in all things'. It provides contrast and resistance. Contrast and resistance help perception and growth.

The paradoxes in the Gospel are not at odds, they are yin and yang, push and pull, etc. They provide relief, definition to reality.

Paradox comes from not understanding, and you don't grow in truth when you don't understand.

Precisely, at first it seems absurd or contradictory until one seeks, asks and knocks.

Look at the definition again..."seemingly absurd or contradictory, which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true."

A Gospel of paradoxes means that it's well founded and true, but often enough at first glance appears to be absurd or contradictory.

Anyhow, I still humbly submit that Torah is much more rich and deep than "law". IMO saying Law is limiting in concept and scope.

I mainly broached the subject because I think it will be easier (and more accurate) when teaching others about Torah.

It seems we may be more on the same page on paradox just describing it differently.

Torah is more than just law, but if people are adverse to law they are not becoming like Yeshua who kept the law perfectly, as He commanded us to keep it perfectly. https://seekingyhwh.org/lectures-on-faith/5th/

TheDuke wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 11:56 am There is no reference to the literal second coming (I say literal because many say everyone has a personal one, including those who died a 100 years ago), nothing about baptism, let alone baptism of fire.

What you're saying is if you come to the party without your temple garments then you'll become a son of perdition? If your taking this literally that is!

There is nothing literal in this parable. It is a parable after all.

It is about being prepared and accepting Christ and being ready, i.e. enduring to the end.

Thank you for the reminder that it’s a symbolic parable - not literal.

Being dammed/held-back from progressing spiritually, is based on not seeing. If you cannot SEE that an experimental shot is not something you should put into your body - when “everyone’s doing it,” you may pay for it. If you cannot SEE a Ponzi scene for what it is, then you like many lds (UT leads the nation) may fall for it & ruin you & your family’s livelihood. If you cannot SEE true prophets from false profits, then you may follow your favorite profit to hell.

How do we prepare to SEE? By facing truths - especially the difficult ones to face… Line upon line.

But that’s not all… consider the context of 2 other parables trying to also explain the kingdom of Heaven…

The parable of the talents which is not necessarily about money but about making the most of what God’s given you in terms of talents, abilities etc.

The parable of the sheep & goats is about loving “the least of these” as if they were Christ.

I just realized these 3 parables in Matthew 25 are kind of highlighting the greatest commandments…
1) Love the God of truth - to see clearly.
2) Love yourself as in discipline & make the most of you.
3) Love others - especially those who need it most.

Now the obvious:
GOD IS EXPERIENCED WITHIN. Or as Christ said,

• “And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”

These parables are not for external info., but for internal guidance. Someone (Swedenborg?) suggested the kingdom of Heaven is a good way to describe the vastness within us!

Thinker wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 2:26 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 11:56 am There is no reference to the literal second coming (I say literal because many say everyone has a personal one, including those who died a 100 years ago), nothing about baptism, let alone baptism of fire.

What you're saying is if you come to the party without your temple garments then you'll become a son of perdition? If your taking this literally that is!

There is nothing literal in this parable. It is a parable after all.

It is about being prepared and accepting Christ and being ready, i.e. enduring to the end.

Thank you for the reminder that it’s a symbolic parable - not literal.

Being dammed/held-back from progressing spiritually, is based on not seeing. If you cannot SEE that an experimental shot is not something you should put into your body - when “everyone’s doing it,” you may pay for it. If you cannot SEE a Ponzi scene for what it is, then you like many lds (UT leads the nation) may fall for it & ruin you & your family’s livelihood. If you cannot SEE true prophets from false profits, then you may follow your favorite profit to hell.

How do we prepare to SEE? By facing truths - especially the difficult ones to face… Line upon line.

But that’s not all… consider the context of 2 other parables trying to also explain the kingdom of Heaven…

The parable of the talents which is not necessarily about money but about making the most of what God’s given you in terms of talents, abilities etc.

The parable of the sheep & goats is about loving “the least of these” as if they were Christ.

I just realized these 3 parables in Matthew 25 are kind of highlighting the greatest commandments…
1) Love the God of truth - to see clearly.
2) Love yourself as in discipline & make the most of you.
3) Love others - especially those who need it most.

Now the obvious:
GOD IS EXPERIENCED WITHIN. Or as Christ said,

• “And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”

These parables are not for external info., but for internal guidance. Someone (Swedenborg?) suggested the kingdom of Heaven is a good way to describe the vastness within us!

Luke 19, parable of the Lord and the 10 servants. It’s interesting that the first 3 servants are like the parable of the Talents.

Is Joseph Fielding Smith the last of his servants that were given the same as John Taylor?

Are they now just blowing in the wind?