A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

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Daniel
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A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by Daniel »

Last Sunday in gospel doctrine class we were discussing the temptations of Christ in Matthew 4. The third temptation is recited as follows in 8-10, "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

A comment was made by an individual and later repeated by another (both of whom I love and respect) in the class that Satan often makes promises that he can't deliver on (I agreed with this). The individual continued on saying "because Satan could not possibly give all the kingdoms of the world to anyone". I immediately wanted to raise my hand in incredulity and disagree, but I restrained myself, both times. The teacher who has some understanding of broad scale world wide conspiracies replied that certain celebrities had disclosed that they had "sold their souls to the devil" in order to obtain their success. The individuals agreed on this.

My immediate attituded while in class upon hearing those comments was an amazement at the level of naivety. Later as I thought about it, it comes down to how much control does Satan really have over the kingdoms of the Earth. Prior to COVID I had a general belief that the level of control Satan had over the world was relegated to "effective control", as opposed to "total control". However, after seeing the degree of lockstep nearly every country and jurisdiction fell under, today I am more inclined to believe Satan is much closer to having total control.

How would you have responded in class, if at all?

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John Tavner
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by John Tavner »

Daniel wrote: February 7th, 2023, 10:58 am Last Sunday in gospel doctrine class we were discussing the temptations of Christ in Matthew 4. The third temptation is recited as follows in 8-10, "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

A comment was made by an individual and later repeated by another (both of whom I love and respect) in the class that Satan often makes promises that he can't deliver on (I agreed with this). The individual continued on saying "because Satan could not possibly give all the kingdoms of the world to anyone". I immediately wanted to raise my hand in incredulity and disagree, but I restrained myself, both times. The teacher who has some understanding of broad scale world wide conspiracies replied that certain celebrities had disclosed that they had "sold their souls to the devil" in order to obtain their success. The individuals agreed on this.

My immediate attituded while in class upon hearing those comments was an amazement at the level of naivety. Later as I thought about it, it comes down to how much control does Satan really have over the kingdoms of the Earth. Prior to COVID I had a general belief that the level of control Satan had over the world was relegated to "effective control", as opposed to "total control". However, after seeing the degree of lockstep nearly every country and jurisdiction fell under, today I am more inclined to believe Satan is much closer to having total control.

How would you have responded in class, if at all?
I would have said something like this. In 2 Cor 4:4 - we see that Satan is the God of this world. It is why we are to be in the world, but not of it. We are to consider ourselves sojourners in a foreign land. Jesus was sent ot declare that the Kingdom of God is within us - it is our daily choice to choose whether to remain in the Kingdom of God or to join the Kingdom of the Devil - whose focus is the glory of man and not hte glory of God. I believe that Satan could have upheld his promise, and indeed had Christ succumbed - all the world would be found in Darkness for the light of Christ would have been snuffed out - thank God though that Jesus is from everlasting to everlasting and is love, is charity and charity never fails. His character was such that though the flesh felt temptation, His Spirit was stronger - this applies to us daily as well, though our flesh may be tempted, we know the Spirit is stronger and through Christ we can do all things. Then I probably would have testified of Christ and His awesomeness a bit more and how as we submit and yield to Him we have the power to overcome all things for "Jesus overcame the world"
Last edited by John Tavner on February 7th, 2023, 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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cyclOps
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

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The wicked will destroy the wicked. Satan has less power than he thinks.

Sunain
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by Sunain »

Satan is currently the God of this world. He has control over the hearts of men to tempt, deceive and destroy them. He also seems to have the power to physically affect people as described by Joseph Smith.

Joseph Smith—History
I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
I see this as one of the first trials that Joseph Smith had. He had enough faith to believe that if he called upon God, he would be delivered from Satan.

Sunain
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by Sunain »

cyclOps wrote: February 7th, 2023, 11:23 am The wicked will destroy the wicked. Satan has less power than he thinks.
When the Lord returns, he will return with great power and authority and Satan will be bound, unable to tempt mankind during the thousand years of millennial peace. He will lose the power that he currently has.

1 Nephi 22:15
15 For behold, saith the prophet, the time cometh speedily that Satan shall have no more power over the hearts of the children of men; for the day soon cometh that all the proud and they who do wickedly shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that they must be burned.

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Chip
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by Chip »

John Tavner wrote: February 7th, 2023, 11:16 am
Daniel wrote: February 7th, 2023, 10:58 am Last Sunday in gospel doctrine class we were discussing the temptations of Christ in Matthew 4. The third temptation is recited as follows in 8-10, "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

A comment was made by an individual and later repeated by another (both of whom I love and respect) in the class that Satan often makes promises that he can't deliver on (I agreed with this). The individual continued on saying "because Satan could not possibly give all the kingdoms of the world to anyone". I immediately wanted to raise my hand in incredulity and disagree, but I restrained myself, both times. The teacher who has some understanding of broad scale world wide conspiracies replied that certain celebrities had disclosed that they had "sold their souls to the devil" in order to obtain their success. The individuals agreed on this.

My immediate attituded while in class upon hearing those comments was an amazement at the level of naivety. Later as I thought about it, it comes down to how much control does Satan really have over the kingdoms of the Earth. Prior to COVID I had a general belief that the level of control Satan had over the world was relegated to "effective control", as opposed to "total control". However, after seeing the degree of lockstep nearly every country and jurisdiction fell under, today I am more inclined to believe Satan is much closer to having total control.

How would you have responded in class, if at all?
I would have said something like this. In 2 Cor 4:4 - we see that Satan is the God of this world. It is why we are to be in the world, but not of it. We are to consider ourselves sojourners in a foreign land. Jesus was sent ot declare that the Kingdom of God is within us - it is our daily choice to choose whether to remain in the Kingdom of God or to join the Kingdom of the Devil - whose focus is the glory of man and not hte glory of man. I beleive that Satan could have upheld his promise, and indeed had Christ succumbed - all the world would be found in Darkness for the light of Christ would have been snuffed out - thank God though that Jesus is from everlasting to everlasting and is love, is charity and charity never fails. His character was such that though the flesh felt temptation, His Spirit was stronger - this applies to us daily as well, though our flesh may be tempted, we know the Spirit is stronger and through Christ we can do all things. Then I probably would have testified of Christ and His awesomeness a bit more and how as we submit and yield to Him we have the power to overcome all things for "Jesus overcame the world"

Members' minds are bifurcated by things like scriptures that say "the kingdom of God is within you" and the church's claim that "the church is God's kingdom on the earth". They believe the latter 10x more. The church's claims cause them to disbelieve the scriptures greatly. THAT is what needs straightening out and THAT is what is most unwelcome. People will reflexively defend church-think, but they will never defend scriptures that conflict with it. That's why we are screwed.

Sunday school is mostly just a ritual used to reaffirm church-think.

Valo
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by Valo »

This Earth is the Kingdom of the Devil and he reigns. Putting any currency or stock in to things of this world is putting currency and stock into Satan.

Don't do it! :D

...

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h_p
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by h_p »

Daniel wrote: February 7th, 2023, 10:58 am How would you have responded in class, if at all?
People don't go to church to have their beliefs challenged. They want an echo chamber. Why bother saying anything to them?

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Chip
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by Chip »

h_p wrote: February 7th, 2023, 12:17 pm
Daniel wrote: February 7th, 2023, 10:58 am How would you have responded in class, if at all?
People don't go to church to have their beliefs challenged. They want an echo chamber. Why bother saying anything to them?
That was my first impulse, too. What's the point?

As Gileadi explained:
Tables Full of Vomit—The Learning of Men

Isaiah spares no words when indicting God’s people, particularly their leaders. When he says of Ephraim’s priests and prophets, “All tables are full of vomit; no spot is without excrement” (Isaiah 28:8), his intent is figurative. The context of this entire chapter relates to Ephraim’s self-deception, its reluctance to receive direct revelation from God, instead relying solely on the beginner’s method of learning—“line upon line, precept upon precept” (Isaiah 28:10). Half-digested truths are regurgitated for God’s people to swallow, so much that God intervenes to restore his word—but not until that state of affairs provokes his judgments (Isaiah 28:11–22).

When Sabbath meetings, fast days, and temple ordinances become mere routine (Isaiah 1:10–15; 58:1–3), when people’s piety toward God “consists of commandments of men learned by rote” while their hearts remain far from him (Isaiah 29:13), when his people’s prophets and seers have fallen into a deep sleep (Isaiah 29:10), God intervenes for good and for evil. For good, when he “lays in Zion a stone, a keystone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation” (Isaiah 28:16). For good, when he brings forth “the words of the book” (Isaiah 29:18). For evil, when he brings “a flooding scourge” upon those who mock at how he intervenes (Isaiah 28:14–22).

Fight for the right
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by Fight for the right »

Sunain wrote: February 7th, 2023, 11:26 am Satan is currently the God of this world. He has control over the hearts of men to tempt, deceive and destroy them. He also seems to have the power to physically affect people as described by Joseph Smith.

Joseph Smith—History
I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
I see this as one of the first trials that Joseph Smith had. He had enough faith to believe that if he called upon God, he would be delivered from Satan.
Satan sure as heck isn't my God. I don't pray to him and have prayers answered by him. Keep the Spirit of the Lord in and it'll keep the Spirit of the devil out.

Daniel
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by Daniel »

I still go because I love those with whom I associate there. I also like being in ward choir the most, because I can really feel the spirit. I also enjoy participating in our service projects. Our priesthood lessons are pretty good. Our ward has a large amount of "awake" members, however the degree of awake varies. But most importantly, I believe the Lord specifically told me to keep going to church. That said, I haven't renewed my temple recommend for about a year now. The pressure will increase on me pretty soon to renew since my youngest son wants to go on a mission next fall.

CuriousThinker
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

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Funny you mentioned that. Someone in my class said Satan doesn't keep his promises. I said that yes, he does, for a season. If he never did, if every time we lie, cheat and steal we get caught and only bad stuff happened then we wouldn't do it. It is only because he keeps his promises, temporarily, that people do those things. He absolutely has massive power on this earth.

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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

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CuriousThinker wrote: February 7th, 2023, 1:02 pm Funny you mentioned that. Someone in my class said Satan doesn't keep his promises. I said that yes, he does, for a season. If he never did, if every time we lie, cheat and steal we get caught and only bad stuff happened then we wouldn't do it. It is only because he keeps his promises, temporarily, that people do those things. He absolutely has massive power on this earth.
It's like gambling, the House always wins at least 51%. You will always be a loser.

EmmaLee
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

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“Satan has control now. No matter where you look, he is in control, even in our own land. He is guiding the governments as far as the Lord will permit him. That is why there is so much strife, turmoil, and confusion all over the earth. One master mind is governing the nations. It is not the president of the United States; it is not Hitler; it is not Mussolini; it is not the king or government of England or any other land; it is Satan himself.”

― Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation Vol I

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BigT
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by BigT »

Revelation 12:

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This makes it very difficult to know what’s true and what’s not, without the Holy Spirit as your guide. Since none of were given the Holy Ghost, only told to receive it, very few have it. It takes a lot of truth to get past the church’s conditioning and the traditions of our fathers (those of us who are burdened with these traditions—some aren’t).

Atrasado
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

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Rob Smith has some very insightful commentary on this doctrine in his book, Seek Ye This Jesus. I highly recommend it.

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Niemand
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by Niemand »

I had this very same problem. I mentioned that Satan was the Lord of this world and god of this world and that humans had handed the world to him. I pointed out that Jesus is the true Lord, but that Satan is squatting here and acts as if he does run the place.

It's stated quite plainly in the Endowment that Satan has some control of this world.

I conpared this to someone I knew who got involved with heroin and the dealers moved into his home. They might not legally own it but they took control of it.

However even though I brought this matter up twice, it went past most people. Some people tried to say it was because Satan was a liar etc etc.

Then someone asked how he could habd ov
CuriousThinker wrote: February 7th, 2023, 1:02 pm Funny you mentioned that. Someone in my class said Satan doesn't keep his promises. I said that yes, he does, for a season. If he never did, if every time we lie, cheat and steal we get caught and only bad stuff happened then we wouldn't do it. It is only because he keeps his promises, temporarily, that people do those things. He absolutely has massive power on this earth.
Yes, Satan can keep promises that's how people get power and fame. He can also tell the truth after a fashion and as this section of scripture says, he can also quote the Bible.

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Chip
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by Chip »

Niemand wrote: February 7th, 2023, 3:22 pm I had this very same problem. I mentioned that Satan was the Lord of this world and god of this world and that humans had handed the world to him. I pointed out that Jesus is the true Lord, but that Satan is squatting here and acts as if he does run the place.

However even though I brought this matter up twice, it went past most people. Some people tried to say it was because Satan was a liar etc etc.

Years of soaking in what has become an unstimulating lukewarm tub of don't-think and follow-the-leader has dulled people's minds.

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Niemand
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

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Chip wrote: February 7th, 2023, 3:29 pm
Niemand wrote: February 7th, 2023, 3:22 pm I had this very same problem. I mentioned that Satan was the Lord of this world and god of this world and that humans had handed the world to him. I pointed out that Jesus is the true Lord, but that Satan is squatting here and acts as if he does run the place.

However even though I brought this matter up twice, it went past most people. Some people tried to say it was because Satan was a liar etc etc.
Years of soaking in what has become an unstimulating lukewarm tub of don't-think and follow-the-leader has dulled people's minds.
I couldn't exactly bring up the Endowment but this is all mentioned in there. Failing that Ephesians 2:2, John 12:31 and other places.

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John Tavner
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by John Tavner »

Chip wrote: February 7th, 2023, 11:31 am
John Tavner wrote: February 7th, 2023, 11:16 am
Daniel wrote: February 7th, 2023, 10:58 am Last Sunday in gospel doctrine class we were discussing the temptations of Christ in Matthew 4. The third temptation is recited as follows in 8-10, "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

A comment was made by an individual and later repeated by another (both of whom I love and respect) in the class that Satan often makes promises that he can't deliver on (I agreed with this). The individual continued on saying "because Satan could not possibly give all the kingdoms of the world to anyone". I immediately wanted to raise my hand in incredulity and disagree, but I restrained myself, both times. The teacher who has some understanding of broad scale world wide conspiracies replied that certain celebrities had disclosed that they had "sold their souls to the devil" in order to obtain their success. The individuals agreed on this.

My immediate attituded while in class upon hearing those comments was an amazement at the level of naivety. Later as I thought about it, it comes down to how much control does Satan really have over the kingdoms of the Earth. Prior to COVID I had a general belief that the level of control Satan had over the world was relegated to "effective control", as opposed to "total control". However, after seeing the degree of lockstep nearly every country and jurisdiction fell under, today I am more inclined to believe Satan is much closer to having total control.

How would you have responded in class, if at all?
I would have said something like this. In 2 Cor 4:4 - we see that Satan is the God of this world. It is why we are to be in the world, but not of it. We are to consider ourselves sojourners in a foreign land. Jesus was sent ot declare that the Kingdom of God is within us - it is our daily choice to choose whether to remain in the Kingdom of God or to join the Kingdom of the Devil - whose focus is the glory of man and not hte glory of man. I beleive that Satan could have upheld his promise, and indeed had Christ succumbed - all the world would be found in Darkness for the light of Christ would have been snuffed out - thank God though that Jesus is from everlasting to everlasting and is love, is charity and charity never fails. His character was such that though the flesh felt temptation, His Spirit was stronger - this applies to us daily as well, though our flesh may be tempted, we know the Spirit is stronger and through Christ we can do all things. Then I probably would have testified of Christ and His awesomeness a bit more and how as we submit and yield to Him we have the power to overcome all things for "Jesus overcame the world"

Members' minds are bifurcated by things like scriptures that say "the kingdom of God is within you" and the church's claim that "the church is God's kingdom on the earth". They believe the latter 10x more. The church's claims cause them to disbelieve the scriptures greatly. THAT is what needs straightening out and THAT is what is most unwelcome. People will reflexively defend church-think, but they will never defend scriptures that conflict with it. That's why we are screwed.

Sunday school is mostly just a ritual used to reaffirm church-think.
In my experience when I do it through explaining it as above, they generally think about it and seeds are sown. If someone says something about the church and the Kingdom of God, I can tell them that I'm happy to discuss it after class, or explain quickly that though they may believe the church is God's kingdom on earth, the point still stands that Satan was offering Him all other kingdoms in the world.

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John Tavner
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by John Tavner »

Niemand wrote: February 7th, 2023, 3:45 pm
Chip wrote: February 7th, 2023, 3:29 pm
Niemand wrote: February 7th, 2023, 3:22 pm I had this very same problem. I mentioned that Satan was the Lord of this world and god of this world and that humans had handed the world to him. I pointed out that Jesus is the true Lord, but that Satan is squatting here and acts as if he does run the place.

However even though I brought this matter up twice, it went past most people. Some people tried to say it was because Satan was a liar etc etc.
Years of soaking in what has become an unstimulating lukewarm tub of don't-think and follow-the-leader has dulled people's minds.
I couldn't exactly bring up the Endowment but this is all mentioned in there. Failing that Ephesians 2:2, John 12:31 and other places.
Why couldn't you bring it up? In my understanding the only thing you aren't supposed to talk about are the tokens and signs together.

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Niemand
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

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John Tavner wrote: February 7th, 2023, 4:56 pm Why couldn't you bring it up? In my understanding the only thing you aren't supposed to talk about are the tokens and signs together.
Some people don't see it that way. The presence of Lucifer in the temple ceremony has never been something I've been entirely comfortable with, but I think if I mention him, it will also give the wrong impression of what we do in the temple... some people already think we are Luciferians!

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John Tavner
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

Post by John Tavner »

Niemand wrote: February 7th, 2023, 5:11 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 7th, 2023, 4:56 pm Why couldn't you bring it up? In my understanding the only thing you aren't supposed to talk about are the tokens and signs together.
Some people don't see it that way. The presence of Lucifer in the temple ceremony has never been something I've been entirely comfortable with, but I think if I mention him, it will also give the wrong impression of what we do in the temple... some people already think we are Luciferians!
Yeah... I mean I can understand that... I just don't see it that way anymore. I forget that I used to think like that. Now I don't though, so I talk about it all the time to members, about everything - even if people haven't been to the temple.. because I figure at least they will know what they are getting into.

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letsjet
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

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An angel told Nephi that there are only two churches. One is the church of Christ the other is the church of the devil. If you do your homework, you will discover the the biggest organization on planet earth is the devil’s kingdom. It is a multifaceted kingdom. It’s responsible for all of our wars, our Satan inspired news, our Satan inspired entertainment, our corrupt Satan inspired politicians, the list is endless. Satan has a memory that spans eternity. He has used his incredible knowledge to spread corruption at a such a vast level that few people can grasp the magnitude of his control! Our current situation is AWFUL thanks to Satan and his army of followers both mortal and unseen.

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cab
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Re: A comment in gospel doctrine class last Sunday

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Daniel wrote: February 7th, 2023, 10:58 am Last Sunday in gospel doctrine class we were discussing the temptations of Christ in Matthew 4. The third temptation is recited as follows in 8-10, "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

A comment was made by an individual and later repeated by another (both of whom I love and respect) in the class that Satan often makes promises that he can't deliver on (I agreed with this). The individual continued on saying "because Satan could not possibly give all the kingdoms of the world to anyone". I immediately wanted to raise my hand in incredulity and disagree, but I restrained myself, both times. The teacher who has some understanding of broad scale world wide conspiracies replied that certain celebrities had disclosed that they had "sold their souls to the devil" in order to obtain their success. The individuals agreed on this.

My immediate attituded while in class upon hearing those comments was an amazement at the level of naivety. Later as I thought about it, it comes down to how much control does Satan really have over the kingdoms of the Earth. Prior to COVID I had a general belief that the level of control Satan had over the world was relegated to "effective control", as opposed to "total control". However, after seeing the degree of lockstep nearly every country and jurisdiction fell under, today I am more inclined to believe Satan is much closer to having total control.

How would you have responded in class, if at all?

I tend to believe that Satan operates in a kingdom that is equal and opposite to God’s kingdom. That he can, in fact, deliver. That those who bind themselves to him really do get to receive a near fullness of the fulfillment of their lusts upon the things of a telestial sphere…. Of course this comes with drastic and eternal consequences…. Why else would higher beings of light “fall” if this weren’t the case?

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