If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15312
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

cwass wrote: February 6th, 2023, 11:50 am I'm assuming the church is being torn apart as we speak. I'm just not sure what's next.
Next: "And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them." 3 Nephi 16:11

And many more details in 3 Nephi

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5863
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by TheDuke »

Sunain wrote: February 6th, 2023, 9:13 am Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
First of that is not true, you may say it is true of the Father, but to think Jesus has not changed from before the atonement to after is well.. crazy. Now if you say god's in general are the same or the Father, ok, I doubt in the 6000 years of earth they have changed much.

As far as change between god and man, it happens all the time. Doesn't take much more than a quick pass through the scriptures to see that his relationship was different in different times: Adam's, Enoch's, Noah's, Abraham's, Moses, Isaiah's, John Baptist's, Jesus' ministry, Post-Jesus Christianity, during dark ages, during the restoration.... Really, almost nothing was the same, the relationship has evolved, god hasn't evolved.

My son has always been my son, and I have not really evolved much but from the time he was born until now (with 8 children of his own), my relationship with him as definitely evolved.

User avatar
HereWeGo
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1220

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by HereWeGo »

cwass wrote: February 6th, 2023, 11:24 am It's not his (stake president) church or their (15) church. If they want to kick me out then that's fine...go ahead.
I think it is their church. Nelson owns it all.

In the recent past, there were 2 main corporations associated with the church that Joseph established:
• "The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Corporate Sole)
• "The Corporation of the Presiding Bishopric"

Then we had the group of worshipers known as “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (a trademark).

During the Covid shutdown, the church re-incorporated the 2 main corporations into one: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Corporate Sole). Nelson is the sole corporation owner. He owns it all.

The group of worshipers and the main corporation now have the same name. How does this now make sense to say “I am a member of 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints'”? That would be saying that we are a member of the corporation known as “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. In reality, we are not a member of that corporation. We don’t have a corporate position in that organization.

When we use the phrase “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, we are NOW referring to a corporation NOT to a group of worshiping people.

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5863
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by TheDuke »

HereWeGo wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:18 pm
cwass wrote: February 6th, 2023, 11:24 am It's not his (stake president) church or their (15) church. If they want to kick me out then that's fine...go ahead.
I think it is their church. Nelson owns it all.

In the recent past, there were 2 main corporations associated with the church that Joseph established:
• "The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Corporate Sole)
• "The Corporation of the Presiding Bishopric"

Then we had the group of worshipers known as “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (a trademark).

During the Covid shutdown, the church re-incorporated the 2 main corporations into one: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Corporate Sole). Nelson is the sole corporation owner. He owns it all.

The group of worshipers and the main corporation now have the same name. How does this now make sense to say “I am a member of 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints'”? That would be saying that we are a member of the corporation known as “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. In reality, we are not a member of that corporation. We don’t have a corporate position in that organization.

When we use the phrase “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, we are NOW referring to a corporation NOT to a group of worshiping people.
that is not true. there has been a corp of president for many, many years. and it is a fiduciary organization not to be confused with the larger group of the church. Just the later doesn't have any money, which may be a concern. BTW it is identical to how the Catholic church operates in the US, and they are still a church as well as a corp.

User avatar
InfoWarrior82
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10861
Location: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." -President Nelson (Jan 2022)

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Subcomandante wrote: February 6th, 2023, 9:08 am And one more addition, this is why I say that Joseph Smith, with Joseph Smith's mentality back in those days, would NOT be able to run TODAY's Church, nor would Russell Nelson be able to run the Church in Joseph Smith's day. Each prophet was necessary in that specific time period.
Joseph Smith was a prophet. President Nelson is only sustained as such. (These are the words of our church leaders today, not mine.)
Last edited by InfoWarrior82 on February 6th, 2023, 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
pho·to·syn·the·sis
captain of 100
Posts: 684
Location: Close to Faraway

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by pho·to·syn·the·sis »

And what if the revelation was had to form the Church as a corporation?
Is there a revelation that instructed the Church to incorporate?

User avatar
HereWeGo
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1220

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by HereWeGo »

TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:24 pm
HereWeGo wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:18 pm
cwass wrote: February 6th, 2023, 11:24 am It's not his (stake president) church or their (15) church. If they want to kick me out then that's fine...go ahead.
I think it is their church. Nelson owns it all.

In the recent past, there were 2 main corporations associated with the church that Joseph established:
• "The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Corporate Sole)
• "The Corporation of the Presiding Bishopric"

Then we had the group of worshipers known as “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (a trademark).

During the Covid shutdown, the church re-incorporated the 2 main corporations into one: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Corporate Sole). Nelson is the sole corporation owner. He owns it all.

The group of worshipers and the main corporation now have the same name. How does this now make sense to say “I am a member of 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints'”? That would be saying that we are a member of the corporation known as “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. In reality, we are not a member of that corporation. We don’t have a corporate position in that organization.

When we use the phrase “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, we are NOW referring to a corporation NOT to a group of worshiping people.
there has been a corp of president for many, many years. and it is a fiduciary organization not to be confused with the larger group of the church.
This is true. We had the Corp of the President and we had the Trademark "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". We no longer have the Corp of the President. When "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" is being used, how can we tell if they are talking about a corporation or a group of people worshiping together? They can't mean both at the same time. The "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" legally means the corporation since the re-incorporation..

User avatar
HereWeGo
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1220

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by HereWeGo »

pho·to·syn·the·sis wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:32 pm
And what if the revelation was had to form the Church as a corporation?
Is there a revelation that instructed the Church to incorporate?
No.

And if there is, why haven't they published it?

cwass
captain of 100
Posts: 216

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by cwass »

HereWeGo wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:18 pm
cwass wrote: February 6th, 2023, 11:24 am It's not his (stake president) church or their (15) church. If they want to kick me out then that's fine...go ahead.
I think it is their church. Nelson owns it all.

In the recent past, there were 2 main corporations associated with the church that Joseph established:
• "The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Corporate Sole)
• "The Corporation of the Presiding Bishopric"

Then we had the group of worshipers known as “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (a trademark).

During the Covid shutdown, the church re-incorporated the 2 main corporations into one: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Corporate Sole). Nelson is the sole corporation owner. He owns it all.

The group of worshipers and the main corporation now have the same name. How does this now make sense to say “I am a member of 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints'”? That would be saying that we are a member of the corporation known as “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. In reality, we are not a member of that corporation. We don’t have a corporate position in that organization.

When we use the phrase “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, we are NOW referring to a corporation NOT to a group of worshiping people.
They still represent the church as if it is the Lord's but they are making decisions as if they own it. Everything is voluntary and I'm certain that the decisions they are making are hurting their bottom line. Cause volunteers don't stick around when decisions don't make any sense.

For me, I'm voluntarily in the organization and hold to the scriptures and to faith in Christ. It's like I told my Presbyterian friend...where would I go with my faith in the book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. I can't go to his church and be better off...what? stay home and worship? Doesn't meet the scriptures declaration to meet together oft.. I understand the problems.. and I'm not happy about it. So I stay untill I get kicked out and they don't want me to meet together with them. Or a better option that is heaven sent becomes available.

EmmaLee
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10884

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by EmmaLee »

cwass wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:41 pm They still represent the church as if it is the Lord's but they are making decisions as if they own it.

That's a really good, and accurate, way to put it.

TwochurchesOnly
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1224

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

Fred wrote: February 5th, 2023, 9:34 pm Embrace change
Or as Hamilton might say:
If you don't like change, find another Savior

In less than 50 seconds introduction by the ensign college guy, he used the word "change" at least 7 times - " teach us about change" etc
he lavished praise --"first official assignment to speak at the college...divine ministry ...
To which bednar jokes " they finally trust me to come and not create a mess"
OOOPS !🤐
It's even worse than OP title " find " another church
as
Bednar states "join " another church ( if you don't like change )--- that's as far as I could listen

"They " can " keep the change.."
( like in home alone 🤣)

User avatar
HereWeGo
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1220

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by HereWeGo »

cwass wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:41 pm For me, I'm voluntarily in the organization and hold to the scriptures and to faith in Christ. It's like I told my Presbyterian friend...where would I go with my faith in the book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. I can't go to his church and be better off...what? stay home and worship? Doesn't meet the scriptures declaration to meet together oft.. I understand the problems.. and I'm not happy about it. So I stay untill I get kicked out and they don't want me to meet together with them. Or a better option that is heaven sent becomes available.
I am in somewhat the same situation. FWIW, there are groups out there who strongly adhere to Joseph Smith, the BoM, Jesus Christ, etc other than the LDS & RLDS. Two that jump out at me are the Doctrine of Christ group and the Remnant group (Denver Snuffer). Check those out. If you Google them, you will get negative stuff just like you get with all churches. Go to their websites and see what they have to say.

blitzinstripes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2294

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by blitzinstripes »

MikeMaillet wrote: February 6th, 2023, 9:56 am
iWriteStuff wrote: February 6th, 2023, 6:20 am
Fred wrote: February 5th, 2023, 9:34 pm Embrace change
It seems like their goal is for smaller congregations. If that's the change they want, I think they're already starting to see it.

Now watch them crank it up to 11.
My Fender Blues Jr. amplifier goes to 12, just so you know :-)
Don't tempt ME with a good time. 😁 I play as well. I wish our music was a little "livelier". Not sure about going full blown Christian metal, but do 99% of our hymns honestly have to be 200 yrs old? I honestly think Jesus rolls his eyes at some of it. Who decided that He only likes organ music from the 19th century?

Jashon
captain of 100
Posts: 501

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by Jashon »

Bednar's evincing the progressive mindset: Whatever will be, ought to be.

blitzinstripes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2294

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by blitzinstripes »

Wasn't Obama's campaign slogan "Change You Can Believe In"?

Or was it, "Change. You Better Believe It"? 😁

Typical progressive flawed thinking. They honestly seem to believe that all "change" is progress. Much of it is regressive and detrimental.

User avatar
gkearney
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5346

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by gkearney »

Speaking of change here is a youtube clip

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxQY9uZyXYWG ... kSaXe6Rl4m

and here is the whole thing.

EmmaLee
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10884

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by EmmaLee »

blitzinstripes wrote: February 6th, 2023, 1:15 pm Wasn't Obama's campaign slogan "Change You Can Believe In"?

Or was it, "Change. You Better Believe It"? 😁

Typical progressive flawed thinking. They honestly seem to believe that all "change" is progress. Much of it is regressive and detrimental.

I've maintained for the last 5 years, that Nelson is to the Church, what Obama was (is) to the U.S.

His husband, Michael, said it best -

“Barack knows that we are going to have to make sacrifices; we are going to have to change our conversation; we’re going to have to change our traditions, our history; we’re going to have to move into a different place as a nation.” — Michelle Obama

Just substitute the word "church" for "nation" and you have what Nelson is doing.

User avatar
MikeMaillet
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1594
Location: Ingleside, Ontario

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by MikeMaillet »

blitzinstripes wrote: February 6th, 2023, 1:05 pm
MikeMaillet wrote: February 6th, 2023, 9:56 am
iWriteStuff wrote: February 6th, 2023, 6:20 am
Fred wrote: February 5th, 2023, 9:34 pm Embrace change
It seems like their goal is for smaller congregations. If that's the change they want, I think they're already starting to see it.

Now watch them crank it up to 11.
My Fender Blues Jr. amplifier goes to 12, just so you know :-)
Don't tempt ME with a good time. 😁 I play as well. I wish our music was a little "livelier". Not sure about going full blown Christian metal, but do 99% of our hymns honestly have to be 200 yrs old? I honestly think Jesus rolls his eyes at some of it. Who decided that He only likes organ music from the 19th century?
Amen Brother, Testify! :-)

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5863
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by TheDuke »

HereWeGo wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:33 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:24 pm
HereWeGo wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:18 pm
cwass wrote: February 6th, 2023, 11:24 am It's not his (stake president) church or their (15) church. If they want to kick me out then that's fine...go ahead.
I think it is their church. Nelson owns it all.

In the recent past, there were 2 main corporations associated with the church that Joseph established:
• "The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Corporate Sole)
• "The Corporation of the Presiding Bishopric"

Then we had the group of worshipers known as “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (a trademark).

During the Covid shutdown, the church re-incorporated the 2 main corporations into one: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Corporate Sole). Nelson is the sole corporation owner. He owns it all.

The group of worshipers and the main corporation now have the same name. How does this now make sense to say “I am a member of 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints'”? That would be saying that we are a member of the corporation known as “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. In reality, we are not a member of that corporation. We don’t have a corporate position in that organization.

When we use the phrase “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, we are NOW referring to a corporation NOT to a group of worshiping people.
there has been a corp of president for many, many years. and it is a fiduciary organization not to be confused with the larger group of the church.
This is true. We had the Corp of the President and we had the Trademark "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". We no longer have the Corp of the President. When "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" is being used, how can we tell if they are talking about a corporation or a group of people worshiping together? They can't mean both at the same time. The "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" legally means the corporation since the re-incorporation..
Again that is just not true. They refer to the corporation of the president when they are talking about that entity. They used to in GC, but know they don't bother. But, never have I heard about the corp in GA talks unless it is finance related. And the church is not "trademark" it is an official organization(s) depending on country, etc...

User avatar
Fred
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7611
Location: Zion

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by Fred »

pho·to·syn·the·sis wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:32 pm
And what if the revelation was had to form the Church as a corporation?
Is there a revelation that instructed the Church to incorporate?
No. Doing so makes the church subservient to man's law.

User avatar
Moroni104
captain of 100
Posts: 247

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by Moroni104 »

I watched some of this video.

He was talking about change when he was referring to moving from Oklahoma to Idaho because the Church asked him to.

I have received different callings too. My callings change.

This talk is about changes in callings.

I listened from the start to minute 16.

Maybe something else happens after that is of interest, but otherwise this is just a generic talk about changes affecting people's lives.

tribrac
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4367
Location: The land northward

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by tribrac »

So if we combine talks....if you don't like change, find another Jesus.

Makes you think.

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 5523
Location: Sinope
Contact:

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by iWriteStuff »

blitzinstripes wrote: February 6th, 2023, 1:05 pm
MikeMaillet wrote: February 6th, 2023, 9:56 am
iWriteStuff wrote: February 6th, 2023, 6:20 am
Fred wrote: February 5th, 2023, 9:34 pm Embrace change
It seems like their goal is for smaller congregations. If that's the change they want, I think they're already starting to see it.

Now watch them crank it up to 11.
My Fender Blues Jr. amplifier goes to 12, just so you know :-)
Don't tempt ME with a good time. 😁 I play as well. I wish our music was a little "livelier". Not sure about going full blown Christian metal, but do 99% of our hymns honestly have to be 200 yrs old? I honestly think Jesus rolls his eyes at some of it. Who decided that He only likes organ music from the 19th century?
Come now, how else would we put the visiting High Councilmen to sleep?

User avatar
cyclOps
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1354

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by cyclOps »

Fred wrote: February 5th, 2023, 9:34 pm Embrace change
Thanks for sharing, Fred! What Elder Bednar says is true!

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5863
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: If you don't like change, find another church - Bednar

Post by TheDuke »

pho·to·syn·the·sis wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:32 pm
And what if the revelation was had to form the Church as a corporation?
Is there a revelation that instructed the Church to incorporate?
Actually, there is. In D&C it talks about "organizing" the church according to the laws of the land. The church was originally organized separately (after the first in NY) in each state as a legal entity according to the state laws of 1830-40s. I don't think they were necessarily corps at that point. There were no federal laws about this stuff until later.

So, to say "no" is assuming that is not what the Lord meant when he said organize according to the laws.....

BTW if you want to read an interesting perspective, read David Whitmer's account in his pamphlet. He makes a point that the church was fully organized before April 1930 but the Lord commanded Joseph to make it more legal.. BTW he doesn't really like how it was handled. But does acknowledge the attempt to do it by the laws at the time.

Post Reply