General Handbook: Apostasy

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Obrien
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by Obrien »

TheDuke wrote: February 5th, 2023, 9:00 pm
Obrien wrote: February 5th, 2023, 7:27 pm Duke - What do you by "recovery end"? I'm presuming you mean when / if a person chooses to be yoked with the iron yoke of LDSCo priestcraft again, but wanted a clarification...
thank you for wasting my time and providing a perfect example of what I asked specifically not to receive. You remind me of a bible story. About a man asking for a fish and getting a rock.... thanks but I already have found enough rocks here to keep me busy. I'll wait for perhaps a fish.
Love you too, Duke...
May the scales of darkness fall from your eyes before you fall into a ditch and bang your head on a rock.

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TheDuke
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:07 pm
I honestly have to wonder what your form of opposition or vocal pronouncements must be.

Maybe we do a little test. Go and tell your bishop and stake president that President Nelson is teaching false doctrine to the church. That he is teaching precepts that directly contradict the words of Christ. Oh, and add that his counsel is killing the members and the whacky-jab is neither safe nor effective.

Let me know how that goes for you.
Stupid suggestion, I don't believe RMN is teaching false doctrines, why would I say it. I don't think he's all together inspired in many things and seems to exaggerate. I don't like his policies, etc... But that isn't false doctrine. No I have been complaining to my bishop and SP for years about, teachings that don't follow scripture (aligning temple questions with baptism requirements), understanding of tithes and their versions of fast offerings, originally it was building assessments for new chapels that I took up the line, PH assignments for local store houses that didn't seem to be helping the poor, and the stupid self cleaning. Throw in Salamander letter stuff, how the blacks and the PH was handled. Under RMN I've made points against listening to GC talks vs. scripture, his wrongful attempt to remove HP's to become elders, Covid policies that I discussed (one way I might add) up to Area 70 and SLC, my anti-covid-vax position, and even my non-attendance with a mask.

There is lots more, but I guess you are right, none rise to the level of claiming leadership apostacy, at least openly. But, you can see why I was never a vaunted High Counselor, let alone Bishop.

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TheDuke
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by TheDuke »

Obrien wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:19 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 5th, 2023, 9:00 pm
Obrien wrote: February 5th, 2023, 7:27 pm Duke - What do you by "recovery end"? I'm presuming you mean when / if a person chooses to be yoked with the iron yoke of LDSCo priestcraft again, but wanted a clarification...
thank you for wasting my time and providing a perfect example of what I asked specifically not to receive. You remind me of a bible story. About a man asking for a fish and getting a rock.... thanks but I already have found enough rocks here to keep me busy. I'll wait for perhaps a fish.
Love you too, Duke...
May the scales of darkness fall from your eyes before you fall into a ditch and bang your head on a rock.
personal attacks come from people with a child's IQ, so I will ignore that you responded again with some personal put downs, w/o even supporting the discussion.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:20 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:07 pm
I honestly have to wonder what your form of opposition or vocal pronouncements must be.

Maybe we do a little test. Go and tell your bishop and stake president that President Nelson is teaching false doctrine to the church. That he is teaching precepts that directly contradict the words of Christ. Oh, and add that his counsel is killing the members and the whacky-jab is neither safe nor effective.

Let me know how that goes for you.
Stupid suggestion, I don't believe RMN is teaching false doctrines, why would I say it. I don't think he's all together inspired in many things and seems to exaggerate. I don't like his policies, etc... But that isn't false doctrine. No I have been complaining to my bishop and SP for years about, teachings that don't follow scripture (aligning temple questions with baptism requirements), understanding of tithes and their versions of fast offerings, originally it was building assessments for new chapels that I took up the line, PH assignments for local store houses that didn't seem to be helping the poor, and the stupid self cleaning. Throw in Salamander letter stuff, how the blacks and the PH was handled. Under RMN I've made points against listening to GC talks vs. scripture, his wrongful attempt to remove HP's to become elders, Covid policies that I discussed (one way I might add) up to Area 70 and SLC, my anti-covid-vax position, and even my non-attendance with a mask.

There is lots more, but I guess you are right, none rise to the level of claiming leadership apostacy, at least openly. But, you can see why I was never a vaunted High Counselor, let alone Bishop.
At least we can agree that the word stupid should be used to describe something.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:21 pm personal attacks come from people with a child's IQ, so I will ignore that you responded again with some personal put downs, w/o even supporting the discussion.
Hahaha, I just had to laugh reading this post from you right after you made a personal attack. "Stupid suggestion..."

Childish IQs indeed.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Christ: "Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another."

Nelson: "…prophets, seers and revelators. There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely."

——
Christ: "And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out."

Christ: "“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

Nelson: “The prophet will not lead you astray.”
——

Nothing to see here folks...

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:09 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:02 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 11:55 am Been doing it 37 years w/o repercussions.
Didn't take me long.
I should have said 37 years and counting then. as your response doesn't make sense to me given the initial put by Reluctant: but perhaps it is just too short of a sentence? Did you mean it didn't take you that long to get a council (if so, then I understand your statement,) but the outcome of which the outcome was your choice not the leadership?
They counseled me in my home and threatened excommunication. That was after only having walked out of a meeting and discussed with them privately, now imagine if I had actually opened my mouth publicly.

Yes I removed my records, but that was simply to avoid the hassle of excommunication. In hindsight, wish I woulda gone through that process.

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HereWeGo
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by HereWeGo »

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: February 5th, 2023, 9:49 pm What I find interesting is that Isaiah refers to apostasy as idolatry. He primarily decries the worshipping of the things of man's hands and people.
Just another example of how religious teachings and definitions in the scriptures are different than that taught by the church.

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HereWeGo
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by HereWeGo »

TheDuke wrote: February 5th, 2023, 9:00 pm
Obrien wrote: February 5th, 2023, 7:27 pm Duke - What do you by "recovery end"? I'm presuming you mean when / if a person chooses to be yoked with the iron yoke of LDSCo priestcraft again, but wanted a clarification...
thank you for wasting my time
If someone is wasting your time, it would be you. Don't waste your time replying to others if you feel it is a waste of your time.

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Obrien
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by Obrien »

TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:21 pm
Obrien wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:19 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 5th, 2023, 9:00 pm
Obrien wrote: February 5th, 2023, 7:27 pm Duke - What do you by "recovery end"? I'm presuming you mean when / if a person chooses to be yoked with the iron yoke of LDSCo priestcraft again, but wanted a clarification...
thank you for wasting my time and providing a perfect example of what I asked specifically not to receive. You remind me of a bible story. About a man asking for a fish and getting a rock.... thanks but I already have found enough rocks here to keep me busy. I'll wait for perhaps a fish.
Love you too, Duke...
May the scales of darkness fall from your eyes before you fall into a ditch and bang your head on a rock.
personal attacks come from people with a child's IQ, so I will ignore that you responded again with some personal put downs, w/o even supporting the discussion.
I am not attacking you - I am genuinely concerned for you and your immature perceptions with respect to the need come out the other end of "apostasy".

Forever
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by Forever »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:30 pm Christ: "Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another."

Nelson: "…prophets, seers and revelators. There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely."

——
Christ: "And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out."

Christ: "“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

Nelson: “The prophet will not lead you astray.”
——

Nothing to see here folks...
You should write a book.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Forever wrote: February 6th, 2023, 3:35 pm You should write a book.
I think my essays are as far as I'll ever get.

Exposing Darkness essays are here: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/exposing-darkness

Revealing Light essays are here: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/reveal-light

The nice thing about digital/web-based essays is I can keep adding to them.

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TheDuke
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by TheDuke »

Obrien wrote: February 6th, 2023, 3:25 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:21 pm
Obrien wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:19 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 5th, 2023, 9:00 pm

thank you for wasting my time and providing a perfect example of what I asked specifically not to receive. You remind me of a bible story. About a man asking for a fish and getting a rock.... thanks but I already have found enough rocks here to keep me busy. I'll wait for perhaps a fish.
Love you too, Duke...
May the scales of darkness fall from your eyes before you fall into a ditch and bang your head on a rock.
personal attacks come from people with a child's IQ, so I will ignore that you responded again with some personal put downs, w/o even supporting the discussion.
I am not attacking you - I am genuinely concerned for you and your immature perceptions with respect to the need come out the other end of "apostasy".
thanks but don't worry about me, I'm not one of those on this thread in apostacy. So, I don't have to come out of it. However, in all fairness, it is a valid question as I have family affected like this this is coming out of it and wanted to know how it works. Just something like this requires a mature audience worried about truth, not hurling stones.

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TheDuke
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:26 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:21 pm personal attacks come from people with a child's IQ, so I will ignore that you responded again with some personal put downs, w/o even supporting the discussion.
Hahaha, I just had to laugh reading this post from you right after you made a personal attack. "Stupid suggestion..."

Childish IQs indeed.
twisting things again I see. I said the question was stupid as it doesn't apply to the topic or the localized conversation. I didn't say you were stupid. I didn't say anything about you. You talk about me. Not my comments or thoughts. but attack the person. If you cannot see the difference you, then there is no use discussing.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:28 pm Just something like this requires a mature audience worried about truth, not hurling stones.
I suggest you take some of your own advice.

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TheDuke
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:30 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:28 pm Just something like this requires a mature audience worried about truth, not hurling stones.
I suggest you take some of your own advice.
I do. I work very hard in my replies not to make it look like an attack on a person. It gets hard when several repeatedly dive into personal attacks and LDS church slurs vs. responses. Cannot wait (but I will) until we meet in person and can discuss these comments and responses at the bar.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:35 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:30 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:28 pm Just something like this requires a mature audience worried about truth, not hurling stones.
I suggest you take some of your own advice.
I do. I work very hard in my replies not to make it look like an attack on a person. It gets hard when several repeatedly dive into personal attacks and LDS church slurs vs. responses. Cannot wait (but I will) until we meet in person and can discuss these comments and responses at the bar.
You made a personal attack in this very thread...

BTW, you never responded to my post where I clearly presented the contradictory doctrine from your prophet. You'd condemn the BoM prophets with your same "church slurs" comment. Nelson is teaching false doctrine. That's not a slur.

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Obrien
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by Obrien »

TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:28 pm
Obrien wrote: February 6th, 2023, 3:25 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:21 pm
Obrien wrote: February 6th, 2023, 12:19 pm

Love you too, Duke...
May the scales of darkness fall from your eyes before you fall into a ditch and bang your head on a rock.
personal attacks come from people with a child's IQ, so I will ignore that you responded again with some personal put downs, w/o even supporting the discussion.
I am not attacking you - I am genuinely concerned for you and your immature perceptions with respect to the need come out the other end of "apostasy".
thanks but don't worry about me, I'm not one of those on this thread in apostacy. So, I don't have to come out of it. However, in all fairness, it is a valid question as I have family affected like this this is coming out of it and wanted to know how it works. Just something like this requires a mature audience worried about truth, not hurling stones.
My mom went through disassociation and came out the other end, dad has remained outside LDSCo. I can ask her how it went, from a woman's POV.
BTW - funny fact...I re-baptized her.

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TheDuke
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:41 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:35 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:30 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:28 pm Just something like this requires a mature audience worried about truth, not hurling stones.
I suggest you take some of your own advice.
I do. I work very hard in my replies not to make it look like an attack on a person. It gets hard when several repeatedly dive into personal attacks and LDS church slurs vs. responses. Cannot wait (but I will) until we meet in person and can discuss these comments and responses at the bar.
You made a personal attack in this very thread...

BTW, you never responded to my post where I clearly presented the contradictory doctrine from your prophet. You'd condemn the BoM prophets with your same "church slurs" comment. Nelson is teaching false doctrine. That's not a slur.
not true. show me the personal attack.

And I did respond, I said that I didn't see the contradiction, it was your interpretation of the words, very specific.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:48 pm not true. show me the personal attack.

And I did respond, I said that I didn't see the contradiction, it was your interpretation of the words, very specific.
Ok, I concede. I reread the comment ("Stupid suggestion..") in the wrong context. But, I'll have to remember to reference more of your comments that way.

Oh, and no, you did not reply to my comment clearly showing how Nelson contradicts the scriptures. Here it is again:
——
Christ: "Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another."

Nelson: "…prophets, seers and revelators. There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely."
——
Christ: "And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out."

Christ: "“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

Nelson: “The prophet will not lead you astray.”
——

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TheDuke
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 6th, 2023, 5:02 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:48 pm not true. show me the personal attack.

And I did respond, I said that I didn't see the contradiction, it was your interpretation of the words, very specific.
Ok, I concede. I reread the comment ("Stupid suggestion..") in the wrong context. But, I'll have to remember to reference more of your comments that way.

Oh, and no, you did not reply to my comment clearly showing how Nelson contradicts the scriptures. Here it is again:
——
Christ: "Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another."

Nelson: "…prophets, seers and revelators. There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely."
——
Christ: "And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out."

Christ: "“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

Nelson: “The prophet will not lead you astray.”
——
I already discussed my interpretation of "astray" so I will not repeat it. But, I can read many scriptures where the words were follow the prophet or "die" or "be lost", often I will admit they are social, and perhaps to a king, i.e. Amos, or talk of Moses saying follow him or be killed at times as both prophet, general and king. Capt Moroni comes to mind. JS often spoke of those not following him or the entire council as he often counted on the council to back him, always. Always the Lord put a man on the path to him. I agree the man is not between him (that is Jesus but Jesus is between us and the father) and the Lord. I never heard RMN say he was between me and the Lord. I have heard the opposite, that I need to pray and have more faith. I just guess that when the spirit strives with man, he learns things that a man alone cannot hear.

BTW I have also said that in this telestial world in the only exception of when Christ was here himself, the church has always been in a level of apostacy, with diverse teachings and mistakes being made. Right after Jesus' death the church had multiple wrong teachings that required angels and visions to correct, along with 10 or more years. Even Peter was such affected, he wanted to make everyone a Jew before a Christian. How wrong is that? Yet he was the chief apostle and the Lord strove with him. I could go on and on for pages. But why?

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: General Handbook: Apostasy

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 6:16 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 6th, 2023, 5:02 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 4:48 pm not true. show me the personal attack.

And I did respond, I said that I didn't see the contradiction, it was your interpretation of the words, very specific.
Ok, I concede. I reread the comment ("Stupid suggestion..") in the wrong context. But, I'll have to remember to reference more of your comments that way.

Oh, and no, you did not reply to my comment clearly showing how Nelson contradicts the scriptures. Here it is again:
——
Christ: "Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another."

Nelson: "…prophets, seers and revelators. There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely."
——
Christ: "And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out."

Christ: "“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

Nelson: “The prophet will not lead you astray.”
——
I already discussed my interpretation of "astray" so I will not repeat it. But, I can read many scriptures where the words were follow the prophet or "die" or "be lost", often I will admit they are social, and perhaps to a king, i.e. Amos, or talk of Moses saying follow him or be killed at times as both prophet, general and king. Capt Moroni comes to mind. JS often spoke of those not following him or the entire council as he often counted on the council to back him, always. Always the Lord put a man on the path to him. I agree the man is not between him (that is Jesus but Jesus is between us and the father) and the Lord. I never heard RMN say he was between me and the Lord. I have heard the opposite, that I need to pray and have more faith. I just guess that when the spirit strives with man, he learns things that a man alone cannot hear.

BTW I have also said that in this telestial world in the only exception of when Christ was here himself, the church has always been in a level of apostacy, with diverse teachings and mistakes being made. Right after Jesus' death the church had multiple wrong teachings that required angels and visions to correct, along with 10 or more years. Even Peter was such affected, he wanted to make everyone a Jew before a Christian. How wrong is that? Yet he was the chief apostle and the Lord strove with him. I could go on and on for pages. But why?
I honestly find it a bit blasphemous that you’d include RMN as even coming close to the men you referenced.

And I do there there are many instances where people approached the Lord and were taught by Him, and not man.

Nelson told you to trust him completely. That IS putting him between you and the Lord.

Your little jab about the spirit was a nice touch. I guess I’m simply past feeling.

I believe there have been several civilization on this earth that lives extensive periods of perfect harmony and were nearly void of apostasy as you call it.

I’m done chatting w/ you on this topic for now. I don’t think there’s much more to contribute. You have you perspective, I have mine.

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