“Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

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TheDuke
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 11:50 am
BenMcCrea wrote: February 4th, 2023, 11:16 am I really hope, those of you who sit on self appointed seats of judgement and accusation, that your own lives are in order and beyond reproach. The Lord’s sceptre of judgement will come down heavily upon those who spend their lives judging and accusing others - especially if they themselves are not spotless.
Your approach is interesting, and so is your perspective. I lived my entire live in a church that was a facade of what it should be. And some things are downright evil, directly contradicting the scriptures. And the church acknowledges that.

What you perceive as “self-appointed seats of judgment” are not that at all. We have been commanded to judge the fruits of prophets. We have been commanded to make righteous judgments. What is surprising to me is how you come to the remarks you have after all I’ve done is select words from past prophets that highlight the evil that pervades our society today.

What am I supposed to do when a person who has placed themselves on a “self-appointed seat of judgment” tells me that I cannot contradict them, or that my salvation hangs upon following them, when the Spirit has clearly inspired me to not follow them?

As I’ve noted many times, in many threads, the condemnation that we see often in scripture and here on the forum comes because of clear deviations from the written word and the witness of the Holy Ghost. Take from that what you will. I’m the first person to acknowledge my imperfections, yet I look forward with great anticipation to the day of judgement.
Interesting they were prophets called of god by angels to preach............. you are not. Like Ben said, trying to elevate yourself to replace the watchmen called of god because you don't like what they said about covid and tithing is not following their ancient paths... None of them elevated themselves.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 4th, 2023, 11:57 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 11:50 am
BenMcCrea wrote: February 4th, 2023, 11:16 am I really hope, those of you who sit on self appointed seats of judgement and accusation, that your own lives are in order and beyond reproach. The Lord’s sceptre of judgement will come down heavily upon those who spend their lives judging and accusing others - especially if they themselves are not spotless.
Your approach is interesting, and so is your perspective. I lived my entire live in a church that was a facade of what it should be. And some things are downright evil, directly contradicting the scriptures. And the church acknowledges that.

What you perceive as “self-appointed seats of judgment” are not that at all. We have been commanded to judge the fruits of prophets. We have been commanded to make righteous judgments. What is surprising to me is how you come to the remarks you have after all I’ve done is select words from past prophets that highlight the evil that pervades our society today.

What am I supposed to do when a person who has placed themselves on a “self-appointed seat of judgment” tells me that I cannot contradict them, or that my salvation hangs upon following them, when the Spirit has clearly inspired me to not follow them?

As I’ve noted many times, in many threads, the condemnation that we see often in scripture and here on the forum comes because of clear deviations from the written word and the witness of the Holy Ghost. Take from that what you will. I’m the first person to acknowledge my imperfections, yet I look forward with great anticipation to the day of judgement.
Interesting they were prophets called of god by angels to preach............. you are not. Like Ben said, trying to elevate yourself to replace the watchmen called of god because you don't like what they said about covid and tithing is not following their ancient paths... None of them elevated themselves.
Thanks for the vote of confidence.

I have also never tried to elevate myself. Do I give my opinion and ask you to petition Heaven? Yes, all the time. But I’ll be damned if I don’t speak up against the fallen and corrupt nature of men. The covid response was horrific. They literally took the name of God in vain.

You can’t even give me an honest answer about tithing, so it’s pointless to discuss that with you. Those verses in 2 Nephi 28 were condemning your leaders. They are grinding the face of the poor.

I’m honestly surprised that you still read threads from a heretic such as myself. Or that you waste your precious time responding to my posts.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Thinker wrote: February 4th, 2023, 11:04 am I think life happens in stages. Luckily we’re not asked to do anything unpleasant for too long. Eventually someone else takes the baton. For a while, I felt pulled toward warning people about things (like harmful homosexuality becoming normalized, church financial corruption, abortion facts, etc.). A lot of my preaching was on forums of which I was the only one sharing those views. I was hated, called names, banned & 1 guy even stocked & threatened to kill me. Definitely not a fun job. But at the time, I felt obligated to shed light on things. And occasionally someone would tell me they appreciated & never considered some things I brought up. Hopefully some good came out of it.

But it took a toll, & though occasionally I still shed light on “inconvenient truths,” generally, I’ve chilled a bit. But I am really glad for others like you who keep shedding light on important things, even if they’re truths many take to be hard.

Paraphrasing: “Maturity is based on the number and type of truths one is able to handle.”
A big part of life is increasing our capacity for truth/God.
I’m trying to get to a place where I can find a happy medium. I think that was the intent of how I set up my essays: Exposing Darkness, Revealing Light. In reality, I need to spend more time on the light. That’s one of the reasons I stopped studying polygamy and slew of other topics. I satisfied my understanding and moved on. I really should take that to heart when responding on the forum.

BTW, cheers to doing what you felt was right amidst opposition. That has been one of the toughest things to overcome. Speaking my conscience has destroyed decades-old friendships and shredded family relationships.

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John Tavner
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by John Tavner »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 11:57 am
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 11:24 am I don't read your essays, so I don't know what you do don't say. I'm also not saying we can't preach against going astray. It is the intent and pureness of our heart as we do so that matters - and not the "I"m right" "you're wrong." The purpose is to establish righteousness.

The temple ceremony definitely has a lot of good symbolism- but like all things one can find evil in it if they seek it or good. It depends on what we are looking for the real question comes down to the intent of those who receive or study it.

Because a bitter well can not bring forth sweet water. Imagine if Jesus was bitter because He was betrayed... we would all be screwed. We have to make sure our own hearts are pure - otherwise it will sow bitterness and bitterness is not God - whom we are to represent. Again, I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong.
That’s cool if you don’t want to read any of my essays. I don’t blame people for avoiding them. But I would be hesitant to judge a person if I didn’t read or gain a greater understanding of their perspective.

I also think you’ve misconstrued your statement of “I’m right vs you’r wrong.” It should be “What’s right vs. what’s wrong.” I don’t care WHO is right, unless we are talking about a witness of the Spirit.

My comment about the temple comes from reading the Nemenhah Record. If you haven’t read it, then you’ll have no idea why I approach the subjects with an eye of scrutiny. I’ll never look at the endowment the same way again. Joseph was striving to give us so many wonderful things, only to have them distorted and/or lost. And then the gatekeepers came in with their keys and authority, incorrect tithes, and sustaining crap and it has lost all meaning for me for what the church thinks is an endowment.

But don’t worry, a person can come to their own convictions of what those laws means and they can covenant with the Lord to keep them, regardless of what a church leader does or doesn’t approve of.
I have no interests in hardly anyone's essays, it isn't personal., nor am I "avoiding" them. I read only if the Lord directs me to them. I prefer to read the scriptures and commune with God as I do so. I don't think it should be "what's right or wrong" either - It is about righteousness and establishing it ( seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness (to establish it). Determining what is right or wrong may be a part of that journey, but it isn't the end goal and if we get too focused on what is "right" or what is "wrong" we miss the point that God can make what is wrong right. I was really really wrong in my life and lived my life as a hardcore pharisee. God came and in an instant flipped it all on its head and I realized how self-righteous I had been. I stopped worrying so much about who or what was "right" or "wrong" in others. I sought it for myself- to let God make me right before Him, so I had/have right standing before Him. It allows me to see clearly, more than every before - I still make mistakes, but now I love a good rebuking from God. I rejoice when He does it- because He loves me, and as I see clear because I am pure in heart, I can better help others remove motes in their eyes.( this is not a subtle accusation towards you, just a commentary). When I'm not pure in heart, my beam is really really large and I think I can see clear, but really I'm just hitting everyone with hte large beam in my eye.

I approach everything with an eye of scrutiny myself. That's good to do so. Me personally, I don't care about all the "wrong" things they did. I know they did wrong things. I've done wrong things. I got tired of seeing all the wrong things they did. Instead I decided to focus on the right things that God did for me and all of mankind and share that. When you start to see how Who God is and His goodness, it becomes easier to see what is "right" and what is "wrong." Took me a while to understand Moroni. As I focus more on God, It makes more sense. ( keep your eye single to God)

I'm not worried- why should I be? Jesus is my Savior, and God is my Father. He has redeemed me and I am continually being transformed into His image as I seek Him. When I become self-focused and lose sight, then I stumble, but God is right there to embrace me as I run to Him and cry "Abba." Jesus said "deny yourself, pick up your cross daily and follow me" To me that encompasses everything shared in the temple and more.

Like I said, I don't think there is anything wrong with calling out wickedness- It is the intent behind our heart that matters. Are we doing it because they or "it is wrong" or are we doing it because there is a better way and Jesus is saying "come home" let me establish you in Righteousness, no longer live fallen, but live through Me (Jesus Christ) i.e. because we love them and God/have charity. If we are doing it just because it is wrong, we've are but brass or a cymbal. Jesus said "you have heard it said don't murder" "I say unto you don't be angry with your brother." He is constantly telling us He wants our hearts, not just our actions, but when HE has our hearts, we list to obey and we love it, because we Love Him. Even when we mess up, it is redeeming, because we see the lie we believed and we cry out to Him and run to Him and again, He embraces us and says "I see more in you, You are more than you believe go live the rightoeusness I have given you through belief on my name and no longer live condemned, but be free and preach freedom to the captive"
Last edited by John Tavner on February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:17 pm Determining what is right or wrong may be a part of that journey, but it isn't the end goal and if we get too focused on what is "right" or what is "wrong" we miss the point that God can make what is wrong right.
We’re not talking about the same things here. I’m not talking about people that sin. I’m talking about wickedness vs righteousness. God will never make sin “right.”

Read Lehi’s discourse on sin and wickedness vs righteousness. If there were no sin or righteousness, then God would cease to be.
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on February 4th, 2023, 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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John Tavner
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by John Tavner »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:17 pm Determining what is right or wrong may be a part of that journey, but it isn't the end goal and if we get too focused on what is "right" or what is "wrong" we miss the point that God can make what is wrong right.
We’re not talking about the same things here. I’m not talking about people that sin. I’m talking about wickedness vs righteousness. God will never make sin “right.”
He makes sinners right. You were wrong once. Now you are right... if you believe. God constantly transforms that which the devil has made wrong and makes it for hte good of Man. That is making what is wrong, right.
Last edited by John Tavner on February 4th, 2023, 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

BenMcCrea wrote: February 4th, 2023, 11:16 am I really hope, those of you who sit on self appointed seats of judgement and accusation, that your own lives are in order and beyond reproach. The Lord’s sceptre of judgement will come down heavily upon those who spend their lives judging and accusing others - especially if they themselves are not spotless.
Lol

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:17 pm Determining what is right or wrong may be a part of that journey, but it isn't the end goal and if we get too focused on what is "right" or what is "wrong" we miss the point that God can make what is wrong right.
We’re not talking about the same things here. I’m not talking about people that sin. I’m talking about wickedness vs righteousness. God will never make sin “right.”
He makes sinners right. You were wrong once. Now you are right... if you believe.
Read what I said again. God will not change sin into righteousness. He does change the fallen nature of man. Of course! That’s the beauty of the gospel.

(E.g. God isn’t going to take one of the 10 commandments and say, “Ok, now you guys can lie, steal, dishonor your parent, and go ahead with that wild rave sexual orgy you had planned for this weekend.”
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on February 4th, 2023, 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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John Tavner
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by John Tavner »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:23 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:17 pm Determining what is right or wrong may be a part of that journey, but it isn't the end goal and if we get too focused on what is "right" or what is "wrong" we miss the point that God can make what is wrong right.
We’re not talking about the same things here. I’m not talking about people that sin. I’m talking about wickedness vs righteousness. God will never make sin “right.”
He makes sinners right. You were wrong once. Now you are right... if you believe.
Read what I said again. God will not change sin into righteousness. He does change the fallen nature of man. Of course! That’s the beauty of the gospel.
Read what I Said again :)

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:24 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:23 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm
We’re not talking about the same things here. I’m not talking about people that sin. I’m talking about wickedness vs righteousness. God will never make sin “right.”
He makes sinners right. You were wrong once. Now you are right... if you believe.
Read what I said again. God will not change sin into righteousness. He does change the fallen nature of man. Of course! That’s the beauty of the gospel.
Read what I Said again :)
I feel like I’m talking in circles ever time we discuss things on the forum.

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John Tavner
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by John Tavner »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:23 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:17 pm Determining what is right or wrong may be a part of that journey, but it isn't the end goal and if we get too focused on what is "right" or what is "wrong" we miss the point that God can make what is wrong right.
We’re not talking about the same things here. I’m not talking about people that sin. I’m talking about wickedness vs righteousness. God will never make sin “right.”
He makes sinners right. You were wrong once. Now you are right... if you believe.
(E.g. God isn’t going to take one of the 10 commandments and say, “Ok, now you guys can lie, steal, dishonor your parent, and go ahead with that wild rave sexual orgy you had planned for this weekend.”
I don't know how you got that out of what I said.

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John Tavner
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by John Tavner »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:27 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:24 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:23 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm

He makes sinners right. You were wrong once. Now you are right... if you believe.
Read what I said again. God will not change sin into righteousness. He does change the fallen nature of man. Of course! That’s the beauty of the gospel.
Read what I Said again :)
I feel like I’m talking in circles ever time we discuss things on the forum.
Hahaha, at least we know the merry-go-round works ;)

Valo
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Valo »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 6:32 am I’ve noticed an interesting trend as I read posts from friends and people on the forum. When they quote the prophets they say we should simply focus on “loving others” and be careful not to say anything that offends or criticizes, that we should not find fault with others. I’ve been labeled many times on the forum as only focusing on the negative. The title of this thread is one such accusation.

I was curious to see what kinds of words the prophets used when they talk about our day. Were they shy about speaking up? Did they hold their tongue and be silent? This short list of words is taken from only three chapters in the BoM, each of them focusing on our day: 2 Nephi 26 and 28, and Mormon 8.

Terrible
Wicked
Perverse
Perish
Proud, Pride
Puffed up
Polluted, pollutions
Hypocrites
Envying
Foolishness
Stumble, Stumbling block
Destruction
Darkness
Iniquity
Hell
Damnation
Unbelief
Get gain
Secret combinations
Works of darkness
Priestcraft
Praise of the world
Grind the face of the poor
Erred in spirit
False, vain, and foolish
False doctrine
Corrupted
Rob
Stiff necks, high heads
Pervert
Whore of the earth
Pacify
Carnal security
Flattery
Ashamed
Wrath and strife
Hewn down
Defiled, lifted up
Abominations
Misery
Mourn
Vengeance

Now what about some of the words from Joseph, Emma and Hyrum. Here’s a short list taken from only one talk from each of them, and each of these given within months of Carthage:

Lie
Deceive
Debauch
Utter contempt
Curse
Unworthy
Unprincipled wretch
Damned
Liars & base imposters
Denounce
Flying fiery serpents
Damned for evil practices
Adulterers, liars, hypocrites
Iniquity
False doctrine
Foolish man
Damned fool
Despise such a man
Disgrace
Corruption of wickedness
Poisonous debauchers
Ungodly wretches
Miserable dupes
Rebuke
Curse the man
Cankered worms
Rotten flesh
Spiritual wickedness
There is a wolf in the path
Seducer
Slanderer
Defamer

Of course there are opposite terminology for all of these. I’d love to simply sit back and focus on the happy things. And at times I do. I love contemplating the depth and beauty of Christ’s teachings. But I think we are amiss if we don’t wake up to the reality that we live in the days in which all of these words noted above are on full display. To sit back quietly and think none of this is happening is to be spiritually blind. ALL of these things are happening within the churches of our day…
You can't be bitter and resentful.

Your harsh words if they are needed must of a necessity come from your love for God and/or your love for the person in all sincerity and in all integrity and in truth.

If you speak words whose fountain is sourced from bitterness, resentment, prideful anger, or enmity in any of it's manifestations then you are acting in wickedness no matter the words said.

An evil fountain cannot bring forth clean water.

...

Valo
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Posts: 974

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Valo »

John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:17 pm Determining what is right or wrong may be a part of that journey, but it isn't the end goal and if we get too focused on what is "right" or what is "wrong" we miss the point that God can make what is wrong right.
We’re not talking about the same things here. I’m not talking about people that sin. I’m talking about wickedness vs righteousness. God will never make sin “right.”
He makes sinners right. You were wrong once. Now you are right... if you believe. God constantly transforms that which the devil has made wrong and makes it for hte good of Man. That is making what is wrong, right.
No God is not a magical fairy who transforms a person from being a fat, lazy undisciplined, irresponsible, unaccountable, and wretched loser to something good.

That's utter rubbish to teach anyone that in the name of Christ.

If you are overweight and undisciplined, you aren't gonna get healthy and disciplined by God transforming you from a fat worm to a lean athlete who can fly.

A person needs to exercise faith which is WORK. So if you're overweight and you want to lose 30 pounds then you are going to have to do more than pray and asked God to forgive you for your binging and unhealthy living. A person doesn't become a lean, mean, fighting for God machine by being undisciplined and lazy and without work. If you are not working towards your salvation and are expecting God to transform you then it can only be because you lack faith.

...

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Valo wrote: February 4th, 2023, 1:13 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 6:32 am I’ve noticed an interesting trend as I read posts from friends and people on the forum. When they quote the prophets they say we should simply focus on “loving others” and be careful not to say anything that offends or criticizes, that we should not find fault with others. I’ve been labeled many times on the forum as only focusing on the negative. The title of this thread is one such accusation.

I was curious to see what kinds of words the prophets used when they talk about our day. Were they shy about speaking up? Did they hold their tongue and be silent? This short list of words is taken from only three chapters in the BoM, each of them focusing on our day: 2 Nephi 26 and 28, and Mormon 8.

Terrible
Wicked
Perverse
Perish
Proud, Pride
Puffed up
Polluted, pollutions
Hypocrites
Envying
Foolishness
Stumble, Stumbling block
Destruction
Darkness
Iniquity
Hell
Damnation
Unbelief
Get gain
Secret combinations
Works of darkness
Priestcraft
Praise of the world
Grind the face of the poor
Erred in spirit
False, vain, and foolish
False doctrine
Corrupted
Rob
Stiff necks, high heads
Pervert
Whore of the earth
Pacify
Carnal security
Flattery
Ashamed
Wrath and strife
Hewn down
Defiled, lifted up
Abominations
Misery
Mourn
Vengeance

Now what about some of the words from Joseph, Emma and Hyrum. Here’s a short list taken from only one talk from each of them, and each of these given within months of Carthage:

Lie
Deceive
Debauch
Utter contempt
Curse
Unworthy
Unprincipled wretch
Damned
Liars & base imposters
Denounce
Flying fiery serpents
Damned for evil practices
Adulterers, liars, hypocrites
Iniquity
False doctrine
Foolish man
Damned fool
Despise such a man
Disgrace
Corruption of wickedness
Poisonous debauchers
Ungodly wretches
Miserable dupes
Rebuke
Curse the man
Cankered worms
Rotten flesh
Spiritual wickedness
There is a wolf in the path
Seducer
Slanderer
Defamer

Of course there are opposite terminology for all of these. I’d love to simply sit back and focus on the happy things. And at times I do. I love contemplating the depth and beauty of Christ’s teachings. But I think we are amiss if we don’t wake up to the reality that we live in the days in which all of these words noted above are on full display. To sit back quietly and think none of this is happening is to be spiritually blind. ALL of these things are happening within the churches of our day…
You can't be bitter and resentful.

Your harsh words if they are needed must of a necessity come from your love for God and/or your love for the person in all sincerity and in all integrity and in truth.

If you speak words whose fountain is sourced from bitterness, resentment, prideful anger, or enmity in any of it's manifestations then you are acting in wickedness no matter the words said.

An evil fountain cannot bring forth clean water.

...
Did this post suggest any of that?

Valo
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Posts: 974

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Valo »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 1:26 pm
Valo wrote: February 4th, 2023, 1:13 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 6:32 am I’ve noticed an interesting trend as I read posts from friends and people on the forum. When they quote the prophets they say we should simply focus on “loving others” and be careful not to say anything that offends or criticizes, that we should not find fault with others. I’ve been labeled many times on the forum as only focusing on the negative. The title of this thread is one such accusation.

I was curious to see what kinds of words the prophets used when they talk about our day. Were they shy about speaking up? Did they hold their tongue and be silent? This short list of words is taken from only three chapters in the BoM, each of them focusing on our day: 2 Nephi 26 and 28, and Mormon 8.

Terrible
Wicked
Perverse
Perish
Proud, Pride
Puffed up
Polluted, pollutions
Hypocrites
Envying
Foolishness
Stumble, Stumbling block
Destruction
Darkness
Iniquity
Hell
Damnation
Unbelief
Get gain
Secret combinations
Works of darkness
Priestcraft
Praise of the world
Grind the face of the poor
Erred in spirit
False, vain, and foolish
False doctrine
Corrupted
Rob
Stiff necks, high heads
Pervert
Whore of the earth
Pacify
Carnal security
Flattery
Ashamed
Wrath and strife
Hewn down
Defiled, lifted up
Abominations
Misery
Mourn
Vengeance

Now what about some of the words from Joseph, Emma and Hyrum. Here’s a short list taken from only one talk from each of them, and each of these given within months of Carthage:

Lie
Deceive
Debauch
Utter contempt
Curse
Unworthy
Unprincipled wretch
Damned
Liars & base imposters
Denounce
Flying fiery serpents
Damned for evil practices
Adulterers, liars, hypocrites
Iniquity
False doctrine
Foolish man
Damned fool
Despise such a man
Disgrace
Corruption of wickedness
Poisonous debauchers
Ungodly wretches
Miserable dupes
Rebuke
Curse the man
Cankered worms
Rotten flesh
Spiritual wickedness
There is a wolf in the path
Seducer
Slanderer
Defamer

Of course there are opposite terminology for all of these. I’d love to simply sit back and focus on the happy things. And at times I do. I love contemplating the depth and beauty of Christ’s teachings. But I think we are amiss if we don’t wake up to the reality that we live in the days in which all of these words noted above are on full display. To sit back quietly and think none of this is happening is to be spiritually blind. ALL of these things are happening within the churches of our day…
You can't be bitter and resentful.

Your harsh words if they are needed must of a necessity come from your love for God and/or your love for the person in all sincerity and in all integrity and in truth.

If you speak words whose fountain is sourced from bitterness, resentment, prideful anger, or enmity in any of it's manifestations then you are acting in wickedness no matter the words said.

An evil fountain cannot bring forth clean water.

...
Did this post suggest any of that?
I don't think so. Did it have to?

...

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Valo wrote: February 4th, 2023, 1:31 pm Did it have to?
Nope. I can see how a person could approach any of these words with a sense of bitterness. I do think, in some way, that righteous indignation is something that happens to people. I’m not saying that I do that at all, but if you study the words in scripture, God executes his vengeance perfectly. Laban probably thought he was wronged when Nephi cut his head off. I bet the Kingmen did the same as they were executed.

Some of these emotions can compel us to action. I’d have a hard time not feeling anger if I saw a child being ritualistically abused. I’d be pretty damn mad. :)

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

In the list of words associated with Emma, you can find the source I used here: https://salemthoughts.com/Topics/A_Voic ... ocence.pdf

I’m curious how people think she felt as she used many of these very descriptive words.

How do you think she would have felt upon learning that Joseph’s supposed friends may have murdered him and lied about it? I’m gonna guess she’d be a little bit ornery. Brigham certainly was against her.

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:02 pm
I have also never tried to elevate myself.

You can’t even give me an honest answer about tithing, so it’s pointless to discuss that with you. Those verses in 2 Nephi 28 were condemning your leaders. They are grinding the face of the poor.

I’m honestly surprised that you still read threads from a heretic such as myself. Or that you waste your precious time responding to my posts.
Lets see "Reluctant Watchman" that surely isn't elevating, but then I never was High Council. When you say you know more, you are "elevating yourself" and you aren't questioning as you stated, you are judging and adding your own intent.

I did answer your tithing question, many times in fact. You just don't like my answer at all because you have hurt feelings and can only see evil intent everywhere in LDS-culture. One more time. I will summarize for you so you don't have to reread alllllll my tithing posts. I got a bit pissy myself (as I said many times, I've been off the leaders-cannot-fail-us bandwagon for 35 years or more, you're just catching up. Anyway, I saw the talk from Oaks about not money to the poor then the large investment and the mall and said that I would no longer pay my tithes. I was explaining my position to the Lord (maybe 3-4 years ago when all that broke, but pre-Covid).

And the Lord came to me, well this time he didn't actually come to me physically or in dream or anything but his voice. He said "ok", I didn't need to pay my tithing anymore. BUT, that I had made a covenant with him for some blessings that I desire (eternal life with my beautiful partner(s)) and if I didn't pay then he didn't need to keep up his end of the covenant. [BTW you should know that I have done everything in my power since entering those covenants with my first wife over 42 years ago to live them, even through a sad divorce. I have the Lord on a hook. He has to deliver.] He told me that is is none of my business what the leaders do with the money. He will hold them accountable. It is my blessing and my covenant that matter to me. And nothing more. so, I repented and keep paying my tithes.

I also related that many years ago, perhaps 1990 during that recession period, that I lost a bit of money in my retirement accounts. I had been literally paying the old 10% of my income. I had a bit of wrestle with my bishop when I explained the Lord/Church owed me like $10,000 for may losses that I'd paid on already. We went through all the churches statements (the bishop was young and got fired a year later for not relating to the ward members). I read carefully the formal church declarations vs. the BS talking points of random historical leaders and 70s. And came to a realization of the meaning of a true tithing. I have never paid on my income since (30+years). It was easy to see the words of the church, the real words, not the sales intent. My problem was rewiring my mind and getting my head around it. The Lord and I have had a good arrangement since. Until I determined not to need to tithe any more as discussed above.

While I'm refreshing your short memory of my statements. I also said that I had miraculous experiences in the temple, some 15 years ago. Then after some changes and things lost faith in much of the temple ordinances. I (like almost all here and in the church) never understood the real meaning of the endowment (of power). So, I quite going and let my recommend usually relapse. then all of a sudden (when the Lord's time was right). He commanded me (again not in person or via the spirit but by his own voice) to take my current wife to become my partner for eternity. I resisted as I already have a lovely celestial partner (though divorces) that I am committed too and my current wife is not long active in the church. The Lord told me calmly but firmly 3 times to take her to the temple. I agreed and our love has jumped from telestial to celestial (while she still resists that I have a previous commitment). The Lord then taught me of the truth and eternal nature of the temple. After, he finally taught me the true place and meaning of the endowment (of power) and now it makes sense to me.

And while your at it you need to be reminded that I am not and never have been (well since 1987) a TBM. I have been out on the limb since long before you became a vaunted High Counsellor. The only reason it seems that way to you is that for some reason, beyond my comprehension the Lord keeps coming to me and telling me the truths of the LDS church related to the Gospel of Christ. I have limited respect for the leaders, beyond having the authority, like Eli, am anti-COVID plandemic and vaxing, and have only despising for liberal morals both in government and society and church.
the thing is I despise "haters" more than the liberals and those seeking the lime light. I despise people thinking they can put down and tear things apart. Others making up serious BS to take away what little truth can be found.

I interact on the forum for two reasons. The first, is to learn, to keep finding new things, new truths. I have been edified here. However, little lately due to hate and really, really stupid conspiracies (like we don't have enough real ones already). Second, because the Lord told me to testify of the things I have "seen", his words not mine, as mostly I feel, not see truths.

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Seed Starter »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 1:39 pm In the list of words associated with Emma, you can find the source I used here: https://salemthoughts.com/Topics/A_Voic ... ocence.pdf

I’m curious how people think she felt as she used many of these very descriptive words.

How do you think she would have felt upon learning that Joseph’s supposed friends may have murdered him and lied about it? I’m gonna guess she’d be a little bit ornery. Brigham certainly was against her.
I'd like to point out what a fine and powerful piece of writing this is. Can you imagine hearing a leader of the relief society give a conference talk like that today? Some adults might have difficulty following some of it. What does that word mean? This message was given at a time when less than half of all children went to public school. Adults listening at the time would have had even less public ed. Sorry about sidetracking this thread a little but we certainly need more Emmas today. But what did she think of polygamy? :lol: :lol:

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 4th, 2023, 2:34 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:02 pm
I have also never tried to elevate myself.

You can’t even give me an honest answer about tithing, so it’s pointless to discuss that with you. Those verses in 2 Nephi 28 were condemning your leaders. They are grinding the face of the poor.

I’m honestly surprised that you still read threads from a heretic such as myself. Or that you waste your precious time responding to my posts.
Lets see "Reluctant Watchman" that surely isn't elevating, but then I never was High Council. When you say you know more, you are "elevating yourself" and you aren't questioning as you stated, you are judging and adding your own intent.

I did answer your tithing question, many times in fact. You just don't like my answer at all because you have hurt feelings and can only see evil intent everywhere in LDS-culture. One more time. I will summarize for you so you don't have to reread alllllll my tithing posts. I got a bit pissy myself (as I said many times, I've been off the leaders-cannot-fail-us bandwagon for 35 years or more, you're just catching up. Anyway, I saw the talk from Oaks about not money to the poor then the large investment and the mall and said that I would no longer pay my tithes. I was explaining my position to the Lord (maybe 3-4 years ago when all that broke, but pre-Covid).

And the Lord came to me, well this time he didn't actually come to me physically or in dream or anything but his voice. He said "ok", I didn't need to pay my tithing anymore. BUT, that I had made a covenant with him for some blessings that I desire (eternal life with my beautiful partner(s)) and if I didn't pay then he didn't need to keep up his end of the covenant. [BTW you should know that I have done everything in my power since entering those covenants with my first wife over 42 years ago to live them, even through a sad divorce. I have the Lord on a hook. He has to deliver.] He told me that is is none of my business what the leaders do with the money. He will hold them accountable. It is my blessing and my covenant that matter to me. And nothing more. so, I repented and keep paying my tithes.

I also related that many years ago, perhaps 1990 during that recession period, that I lost a bit of money in my retirement accounts. I had been literally paying the old 10% of my income. I had a bit of wrestle with my bishop when I explained the Lord/Church owed me like $10,000 for may losses that I'd paid on already. We went through all the churches statements (the bishop was young and got fired a year later for not relating to the ward members). I read carefully the formal church declarations vs. the BS talking points of random historical leaders and 70s. And came to a realization of the meaning of a true tithing. I have never paid on my income since (30+years). It was easy to see the words of the church, the real words, not the sales intent. My problem was rewiring my mind and getting my head around it. The Lord and I have had a good arrangement since. Until I determined not to need to tithe any more as discussed above.

While I'm refreshing your short memory of my statements. I also said that I had miraculous experiences in the temple, some 15 years ago. Then after some changes and things lost faith in much of the temple ordinances. I (like almost all here and in the church) never understood the real meaning of the endowment (of power). So, I quite going and let my recommend usually relapse. then all of a sudden (when the Lord's time was right). He commanded me (again not in person or via the spirit but by his own voice) to take my current wife to become my partner for eternity. I resisted as I already have a lovely celestial partner (though divorces) that I am committed too and my current wife is not long active in the church. The Lord told me calmly but firmly 3 times to take her to the temple. I agreed and our love has jumped from telestial to celestial (while she still resists that I have a previous commitment). The Lord then taught me of the truth and eternal nature of the temple. After, he finally taught me the true place and meaning of the endowment (of power) and now it makes sense to me.

And while your at it you need to be reminded that I am not and never have been (well since 1987) a TBM. I have been out on the limb since long before you became a vaunted High Counsellor. The only reason it seems that way to you is that for some reason, beyond my comprehension the Lord keeps coming to me and telling me the truths of the LDS church related to the Gospel of Christ. I have limited respect for the leaders, beyond having the authority, like Eli, am anti-COVID plandemic and vaxing, and have only despising for liberal morals both in government and society and church.
the thing is I despise "haters" more than the liberals and those seeking the lime light. I despise people thinking they can put down and tear things apart. Others making up serious BS to take away what little truth can be found.

I interact on the forum for two reasons. The first, is to learn, to keep finding new things, new truths. I have been edified here. However, little lately due to hate and really, really stupid conspiracies (like we don't have enough real ones already). Second, because the Lord told me to testify of the things I have "seen", his words not mine, as mostly I feel, not see truths.
I find your pokes, jabs, and then subtle congrats to be interesting. Kind of passive aggressive. I’m always amazed at what people read into what I write. “You used the name Watchman… you must be elevating yourself to the position of prophet.” SMH

As far as tithing, I asked you a directed question on how the church fines it as “income.” And you repeatedly stated that they never have. I was a bit dumbfounded when I showed you half a dozen statements clarifying that from the LDS website and you continued to deny it.

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Valo »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 1:33 pm
Valo wrote: February 4th, 2023, 1:31 pm Did it have to?
Nope. I can see how a person could approach any of these words with a sense of bitterness. I do think, in some way, that righteous indignation is something that happens to people. I’m not saying that I do that at all, but if you study the words in scripture, God executes his vengeance perfectly. Laban probably thought he was wronged when Nephi cut his head off. I bet the Kingmen did the same as they were executed.

Some of these emotions can compel us to action. I’d have a hard time not feeling anger if I saw a child being ritualistically abused. I’d be pretty damn mad. :)
You added more words since you originally posted this.

The wicked always take the truth to be hard.

My point is that whatever you do, it needs to be done with an eye singal to the glory of God.

That sounds trite or like a platitude but it has substance and that substance consists of things that are physical and as real as anything spiritual too.

A good fountain does not bring forth evil water and neither does an evil fountain bring forth good water.

We have to be watchful and be particular and we have to be mindful and sensitive to what we are saying and why we are saying it and when we are saying it and how we are feeling and what is our true "Why?".

As in "why" are you saying what you are saying and is what you are saying really and truly and with the utmost perfect integrity, is it because you love God and/or love the person you are engaging with?

If you are on God's errand then you can't go wrong but the problem is that every tyrant thinks, or at least says they are, on God's errand.

Who are you really and why are you speaking are questions you won't consider or apply truly or genuinely without discipline.

...

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by John Tavner »

Valo wrote: February 4th, 2023, 1:21 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:17 pm Determining what is right or wrong may be a part of that journey, but it isn't the end goal and if we get too focused on what is "right" or what is "wrong" we miss the point that God can make what is wrong right.
We’re not talking about the same things here. I’m not talking about people that sin. I’m talking about wickedness vs righteousness. God will never make sin “right.”
He makes sinners right. You were wrong once. Now you are right... if you believe. God constantly transforms that which the devil has made wrong and makes it for hte good of Man. That is making what is wrong, right.
No God is not a magical fairy who transforms a person from being a fat, lazy undisciplined, irresponsible, unaccountable, and wretched loser to something good.

That's utter rubbish to teach anyone that in the name of Christ.

If you are overweight and undisciplined, you aren't gonna get healthy and disciplined by God transforming you from a fat worm to a lean athlete who can fly.

A person needs to exercise faith which is WORK. So if you're overweight and you want to lose 30 pounds then you are going to have to do more than pray and asked God to forgive you for your binging and unhealthy living. A person doesn't become a lean, mean, fighting for God machine by being undisciplined and lazy and without work. If you are not working towards your salvation and are expecting God to transform you then it can only be because you lack faith.

...
I think you might be reading some wrong things into what I've said. If not, it doesn't matter, I've had my experience with God and HE did transform me from a "fat worm" into a "new creation." Self-righteousness will only lead to self-condemnation. "As a man thinketh, so Is he." I would guess that you and I define faith differently as well.

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by TheDuke »

[q
[/quote]
I find your pokes, jabs, and then subtle congrats to be interesting. Kind of passive aggressive. I’m always amazed at what people read into what I write. “You used the name Watchman… you must be elevating yourself to the position of prophet.” SMH

As far as tithing, I asked you a directed question on how the church fines it as “income.” And you repeatedly stated that they never have. I was a bit dumbfounded when I showed you half a dozen statements clarifying that from the LDS website and you continued to deny it.
[/quote]

you didn't quote the church, you quoted some GA's. church defines income as increase or interest as determined by you and the Lord. That is the formal guidance. If you are so inclined feel free to follow every whim of a GA, like those you quoted. I asked for Official LDS quotes. I got none. Just talks and webpages, no handbook or formal discussion.

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 4th, 2023, 3:48 pm
you didn't quote the church, you quoted some GA's. church defines income as increase or interest as determined by you and the Lord. That is the formal guidance. If you are so inclined feel free to follow every whim of a GA, like those you quoted. I asked for Official LDS quotes. I got none. Just talks and webpages, no handbook or formal discussion.
Duke, I quoted the official position of the church, someone even quoted the handbook of instructions. ALL of them said income. BTW, you should know I don’t follow much of what the GAs and PSRs say these days, give me a little credit there. :)

Since you brought it up, please show me the official (as in current) LDS org definition on tithing. If it’s not in those quotes I noted, they they are really good at absconding and being vague.

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