“Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15316
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

“Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I’ve noticed an interesting trend as I read posts from friends and people on the forum. When they quote the prophets they say we should simply focus on “loving others” and be careful not to say anything that offends or criticizes, that we should not find fault with others. I’ve been labeled many times on the forum as only focusing on the negative. The title of this thread is one such accusation.

I was curious to see what kinds of words the prophets used when they talk about our day. Were they shy about speaking up? Did they hold their tongue and be silent? This short list of words is taken from only three chapters in the BoM, each of them focusing on our day: 2 Nephi 26 and 28, and Mormon 8.

Terrible
Wicked
Perverse
Perish
Proud, Pride
Puffed up
Polluted, pollutions
Hypocrites
Envying
Foolishness
Stumble, Stumbling block
Destruction
Darkness
Iniquity
Hell
Damnation
Unbelief
Get gain
Secret combinations
Works of darkness
Priestcraft
Praise of the world
Grind the face of the poor
Erred in spirit
False, vain, and foolish
False doctrine
Corrupted
Rob
Stiff necks, high heads
Pervert
Whore of the earth
Pacify
Carnal security
Flattery
Ashamed
Wrath and strife
Hewn down
Defiled, lifted up
Abominations
Misery
Mourn
Vengeance

Now what about some of the words from Joseph, Emma and Hyrum. Here’s a short list taken from only one talk from each of them, and each of these given within months of Carthage:

Lie
Deceive
Debauch
Utter contempt
Curse
Unworthy
Unprincipled wretch
Damned
Liars & base imposters
Denounce
Flying fiery serpents
Damned for evil practices
Adulterers, liars, hypocrites
Iniquity
False doctrine
Foolish man
Damned fool
Despise such a man
Disgrace
Corruption of wickedness
Poisonous debauchers
Ungodly wretches
Miserable dupes
Rebuke
Curse the man
Cankered worms
Rotten flesh
Spiritual wickedness
There is a wolf in the path
Seducer
Slanderer
Defamer

Of course there are opposite terminology for all of these. I’d love to simply sit back and focus on the happy things. And at times I do. I love contemplating the depth and beauty of Christ’s teachings. But I think we are amiss if we don’t wake up to the reality that we live in the days in which all of these words noted above are on full display. To sit back quietly and think none of this is happening is to be spiritually blind. ALL of these things are happening within the churches of our day…
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on February 4th, 2023, 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Niemand »

It depends whether it is useful or constructive. Of course, the reverse is true too – flattery can be useless.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15316
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

BTW, subtly is not my strong suit.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15316
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

It was interesting to note that the word “lie” or “liar” showed up in each talk given by Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma.

I hope it is crystal clear why the Lord taught us the principles in JST Mark 9, and 2 Nephi 28:30-31.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15316
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I should also note, the list of words by Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma all stemmed from talks addressing polygamy.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15316
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

This one is quite relevant to the past two years: Poisonous debauchers

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by John Tavner »

To offer another perspective, I think context is key. Rarely are those words used individually, but are normally collective. Often it is the Lord giving a description of the people to the prophets and the prophets relaying that message rather than them telling each individual they are "wicked."

See the problem isn't so much the words, it is how they are used. Most of the time people say them out of anger, frustration, self-pity, hate etc. They are used in the wrong sense and with a wrong motive more as an accusation rather than as a method to jar them to reality so they come to God. In scripture They are also usually followed up by the invitation to repent or a promise of what will happen if they do repent or don't repent - this means that God sees them as doing wicked things, but He doesn't "leave" them there. There is an invitation - the inviatation is usually through some allusion of Christ (in the old testament) and in the New it is Christ.

The Gospels teach us that we are to go forth and preach "the Kingdom is near and to repent and make disciples" Too often we preach "repentance" or some bastardized version of it, usually degraded to "they are evil so if you believe them you are evil too" but little do we teach that the Kingdom of God is near and what that means - if we do it is more "hellfire and damnation" which is ironic considering that Christ came to save and not to condemn, for we are already condemned if we don't beleive- there will be a time of judgment, but now is not the time, if it were, you and I wouldn't be communicating right now. God delays His judgments because he is gathering in his people and waiting for the wheat to grow strong (which implies it is weak) so we ought to delay ours.

In our tongues, as James says, we have the power to give life or death. What we say and how we say it sows seeds. Generally if we are frustrated or angry when we respond to someone, it shows that within us, even if the words are true, we are doing it for the wrong reason, we are being selfish or self-focused. This goes with other self-focused emotions too. WE have to search our own hearts, look inside and make sure we are responding for hte benefit of others and not to "feel better about ourselves." It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance - now there may be times when we speak harshly to people, but it is not all the time the Holy Spirit will guide. Until we understand how much God loves each person and actually love them, often we are doing a disservice by speaking what we perceive to be truth - even if it is truth, it is not in the right time or the right manner. Depending on your view of the Garden of Eden, Satan is a perfect example of that. Satan told truths, but they were not done with good intent - they were self-focused, with hte intent to rule in God's stead. I'm not saying we can't tell people to repent, but often people don't even know what "repent" means. You tell them they are wicked? They may be offended. We write it off using scripture as "The wicked take the truth to be hard" and pat ourselves on the back about it, not even caring if what we did or how we did it was the way God desired us to. Did we actually feel empathy for hte person we were correcting? Did we do it to feel better about ourself? Did we do it because if we are frustrated with them? Did they anger us? Do we see their full potential as God does, that Christ came to give His life so they might have life? Do we see that even if that person doesn't understand now, that they can? Do we water our pillows with tears at night crying out for the welfare of that soul, not just asking God to "make them see truth" (which is often because we are frustrated with them) but rather that they might know God and His love? That grace would fall on our words, that we might be transformed more into the image of God to share the truth He wants us to share and not what we "think" they need to hear? God sees the infinite potential in each of His children, do we? Do we see with an eye of faith that they can become like Christ? Do we believe in the magnificent power and grace of Christ to transform them in the blink of an eye and are we ready to embrace them as little children when they do repent and teach them how to continue in grace in truth to know God? Or Have we unintentionally set ourselves up on our own rameumptom? Do we take the glory to ourselves or God? God is good. He loves us. I think too often we share the punishment of God without even knowing hte love of God. Too often people preach just the "love" of God without knowing what that means. The amazing transformation that happens when one receives forgiveness and realizes how fallen they were, then they can see how God can change anyone. Faith, hope and Charity. As Paul says, (though I know there seems to be a mormon trend to trash on Paul, the words spoken by him are true and from God " Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal (either loud sounds or soft sounds, it doesn't matter, it is just noise)

I also think it is dangerous (and I've seen this on the forum) where we jump to conclusions on the guilt of some people without regard to the truth of it or not. Rumors and gossip abound. It could be true and it is likely true, but no witnesses are around- this goes against scripture, it is still speculation. It can be dangerous especially when presented as fact, when in reality it is just likely or the preponderance of evidence that WE have is pointing htat way, but it may not be all the evidence or information. We are not the court of law. Inevitably the response will be something like "but secret combinations" yep, there are some, but looking at the Nephite people who thought they had truth and were "special in their Christendom", it seems they fell to the combos despite all their crying out against it. The only truly safe way to not fall yourself to a secret combo, is to turn to God and make sure you are pure in heart and keep seeking Him, otherwise, chances are, you may get swept up in them, in someway shape or form- and secret combos aren't just the literal groups... it begins in our hearts. The word of God planted in our hearts can then spread and bring others to God..

Again, I'm not against being vocal or speaking truth, or causing offense, but I think more often than not there is a bitterness that creeps in or a pre-judgment or the words are said to CAUSE offense, not to shake htem free. It is the difference between telling someone you are sorry because you have to, and telling someone you are sorry because you mean it, and you mean it for them, not for yourself. The person on the receiving end can tell the difference. Are we doing what we are doing for oursakes, or for others? Are we being loud brass or light tinkling cymbal, it doesn't matter if we aren't doing it in love. As Paul says again " 5The goal of our instruction is the love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and a sincere faith. 6Some have strayed from these ways and turned aside to empty talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not understand what they are saying or that which they so confidently assert."... 14And the grace of our Lord overflowed to me, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.,of whom I am the worst. 16But for this very reason I was shown mercy, so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display His perfect patience as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life If we forget the purpose of God was to save and to redeem and to restore us to relationship with the Father and see that for others, and don't understand or see that for others... then we are just making loud sounds - for it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15316
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:04 am To offer another perspective, I think context is key. Rarely are those words used individually, but are normally collective. Often it is the Lord giving a description of the people to the prophets and the prophets relaying that message rather than them telling each individual they are "wicked."

See the problem isn't so much the words, it is how they are used. Most of the time people say them out of anger, frustration, self-pity, hate etc. They are used in the wrong sense and with a wrong motive more as an accusation rather than as a method to jar them to reality so they come to God. In scripture They are also usually followed up by the invitation to repent or a promise of what will happen if they do repent or don't repent - this means that God sees them as doing wicked things, but He doesn't "leave" them there. There is an invitation - the inviatation is usually through some allusion of Christ (in the old testament) and in the New it is Christ.

The Gospels teach us that we are to go forth and preach "the Kingdom is near and to repent and make disciples" Too often we preach "repentance" or some bastardized version of it, usually degraded to "they are evil so if you believe them you are evil too" but little do we teach that the Kingdom of God is near and what that means - if we do it is more "hellfire and damnation" which is ironic considering that Christ came to save and not to condemn, for we are already condemned if we don't beleive- there will be a time of judgment, but now is not the time, if it were, you and I wouldn't be communicating right now. God delays His judgments because he is gathering in his people and waiting for the wheat to grow strong (which implies it is weak) so we ought to delay ours.

In our tongues, as James says, we have the power to give life or death. What we say and how we say it sows seeds. Generally if we are frustrated or angry when we respond to someone, it shows that within us, even if the words are true, we are doing it for the wrong reason, we are being selfish or self-focused. This goes with other self-focused emotions too. WE have to search our own hearts, look inside and make sure we are responding for hte benefit of others and not to "feel better about ourselves." It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance - now there may be times when we speak harshly to people, but it is not all the time the Holy Spirit will guide. Until we understand how much God loves each person and actually love them, often we are doing a disservice by speaking what we perceive to be truth - even if it is truth, it is not in the right time or the right manner. Depending on your view of the Garden of Eden, Satan is a perfect example of that. Satan told truths, but they were not done with good intent - they were self-focused, with hte intent to rule in God's stead. I'm not saying we can't tell people to repent, but often people don't even know what "repent" means. You tell them they are wicked? They may be offended. We write it off using scripture as "The wicked take the truth to be hard" and pat ourselves on the back about it, not even caring if what we did or how we did it was the way God desired us to. Did we actually feel empathy for hte person we were correcting? Did we do it to feel better about ourself? Did we do it because if we are frustrated with them? Did they anger us? Do we see their full potential as God does, that Christ came to give His life so they might have life? Do we see that even if that person doesn't understand now, that they can? Do we water our pillows with tears at night crying out for the welfare of that soul, not just asking God to "make them see truth" (which is often because we are frustrated with them) but rather that they might know God and His love? That grace would fall on our words, that we might be transformed more into the image of God to share the truth He wants us to share and not what we "think" they need to hear? God sees the infinite potential in each of His children, do we? Do we see with an eye of faith that they can become like Christ? Do we believe in the magnificent power and grace of Christ to transform them in the blink of an eye and are we ready to embrace them as little children when they do repent and teach them how to continue in grace in truth to know God? Or Have we unintentionally set ourselves up on our own rameumptom? Do we take the glory to ourselves or God? God is good. He loves us. I think too often we share the punishment of God without even knowing hte love of God. Too often people preach just the "love" of God without knowing what that means. The amazing transformation that happens when one receives forgiveness and realizes how fallen they were, then they can see how God can change anyone. Faith, hope and Charity. As Paul says, (though I know there seems to be a mormon trend to trash on Paul, the words spoken by him are true and from God " Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal (either loud sounds or soft sounds, it doesn't matter, it is just noise)

I also think it is dangerous (and I've seen this on the forum) where we jump to conclusions on the guilt of some people without regard to the truth of it or not. Rumors and gossip abound. It could be true and it is likely true, but no witnesses are around- this goes against scripture, it is still speculation. It can be dangerous especially when presented as fact, when in reality it is just likely or the preponderance of evidence that WE have is pointing htat way, but it may not be all the evidence or information. We are not the court of law. Inevitably the response will be something like "but secret combinations" yep, there are some, but looking at the Nephite people who thought they had truth and were "special in their Christendom", it seems they fell to the combos despite all their crying out against it. The only truly safe way to not fall yourself to a secret combo, is to turn to God and make sure you are pure in heart and keep seeking Him, otherwise, chances are, you may get swept up in them, in someway shape or form- and secret combos aren't just the literal groups... it begins in our hearts. The word of God planted in our hearts can then spread and bring others to God..

Again, I'm not against being vocal or speaking truth, or causing offense, but I think more often than not there is a bitterness that creeps in or a pre-judgment or the words are said to CAUSE offense, not to shake htem free. It is the difference between telling someone you are sorry because you have to, and telling someone you are sorry because you mean it, and you mean it for them, not for yourself. The person on the receiving end can tell the difference. Are we doing what we are doing for oursakes, or for others? Are we being loud brass or light tinkling cymbal, it doesn't matter if we aren't doing it in love. As Paul says again " 5The goal of our instruction is the love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and a sincere faith. 6Some have strayed from these ways and turned aside to empty talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not understand what they are saying or that which they so confidently assert."... 14And the grace of our Lord overflowed to me, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.,of whom I am the worst. 16But for this very reason I was shown mercy, so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display His perfect patience as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life If we forget the purpose of God was to save and to redeem and to restore us to relationship with the Father and see that for others, and don't understand or see that for others... then we are just making loud sounds - for it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.
I appreciate the thoughts. What I find interesting is that the words I chose are almost exclusively directed toward church leaders. Nephi, Moroni, Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma at some point addressed those in some position of leadership or authority. All of them. When taken into context, it becomes quite damning what we are seeing today.

BTW, the “bitterness” we often see very often is conjured up in the mind of the person. A soft-spoken, kind-hearted person will feel like these words are harsh and terse… and some of them are, but often these words are spoken with a plea to repent and come unto Christ.

For me, I am honestly heart-broken at what has become of the restoration.

User avatar
Redpilled Mormon
captain of 100
Posts: 664

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

I chalk it up to textbook cognitive dissonance. When a worldview is challenged with incontrovertible evidence, our default setting as fallible humans is not to immediately say 'oh I see I was wrong, I guess I'll change my entire structure of how I see the world'. It's to put up immediate walls and defense, usually throwing out word salad rejections.

We've all been there; I know I have. Eventually truth breaks through most of the time (imo) but it takes a lot of time and reflection, in the meantime I just accept it as a natural defense reaction.

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by John Tavner »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:14 am
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:04 am To offer another perspective, I think context is key. Rarely are those words used individually, but are normally collective. Often it is the Lord giving a description of the people to the prophets and the prophets relaying that message rather than them telling each individual they are "wicked."

See the problem isn't so much the words, it is how they are used. Most of the time people say them out of anger, frustration, self-pity, hate etc. They are used in the wrong sense and with a wrong motive more as an accusation rather than as a method to jar them to reality so they come to God. In scripture They are also usually followed up by the invitation to repent or a promise of what will happen if they do repent or don't repent - this means that God sees them as doing wicked things, but He doesn't "leave" them there. There is an invitation - the inviatation is usually through some allusion of Christ (in the old testament) and in the New it is Christ.

The Gospels teach us that we are to go forth and preach "the Kingdom is near and to repent and make disciples" Too often we preach "repentance" or some bastardized version of it, usually degraded to "they are evil so if you believe them you are evil too" but little do we teach that the Kingdom of God is near and what that means - if we do it is more "hellfire and damnation" which is ironic considering that Christ came to save and not to condemn, for we are already condemned if we don't beleive- there will be a time of judgment, but now is not the time, if it were, you and I wouldn't be communicating right now. God delays His judgments because he is gathering in his people and waiting for the wheat to grow strong (which implies it is weak) so we ought to delay ours.

In our tongues, as James says, we have the power to give life or death. What we say and how we say it sows seeds. Generally if we are frustrated or angry when we respond to someone, it shows that within us, even if the words are true, we are doing it for the wrong reason, we are being selfish or self-focused. This goes with other self-focused emotions too. WE have to search our own hearts, look inside and make sure we are responding for hte benefit of others and not to "feel better about ourselves." It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance - now there may be times when we speak harshly to people, but it is not all the time the Holy Spirit will guide. Until we understand how much God loves each person and actually love them, often we are doing a disservice by speaking what we perceive to be truth - even if it is truth, it is not in the right time or the right manner. Depending on your view of the Garden of Eden, Satan is a perfect example of that. Satan told truths, but they were not done with good intent - they were self-focused, with hte intent to rule in God's stead. I'm not saying we can't tell people to repent, but often people don't even know what "repent" means. You tell them they are wicked? They may be offended. We write it off using scripture as "The wicked take the truth to be hard" and pat ourselves on the back about it, not even caring if what we did or how we did it was the way God desired us to. Did we actually feel empathy for hte person we were correcting? Did we do it to feel better about ourself? Did we do it because if we are frustrated with them? Did they anger us? Do we see their full potential as God does, that Christ came to give His life so they might have life? Do we see that even if that person doesn't understand now, that they can? Do we water our pillows with tears at night crying out for the welfare of that soul, not just asking God to "make them see truth" (which is often because we are frustrated with them) but rather that they might know God and His love? That grace would fall on our words, that we might be transformed more into the image of God to share the truth He wants us to share and not what we "think" they need to hear? God sees the infinite potential in each of His children, do we? Do we see with an eye of faith that they can become like Christ? Do we believe in the magnificent power and grace of Christ to transform them in the blink of an eye and are we ready to embrace them as little children when they do repent and teach them how to continue in grace in truth to know God? Or Have we unintentionally set ourselves up on our own rameumptom? Do we take the glory to ourselves or God? God is good. He loves us. I think too often we share the punishment of God without even knowing hte love of God. Too often people preach just the "love" of God without knowing what that means. The amazing transformation that happens when one receives forgiveness and realizes how fallen they were, then they can see how God can change anyone. Faith, hope and Charity. As Paul says, (though I know there seems to be a mormon trend to trash on Paul, the words spoken by him are true and from God " Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal (either loud sounds or soft sounds, it doesn't matter, it is just noise)

I also think it is dangerous (and I've seen this on the forum) where we jump to conclusions on the guilt of some people without regard to the truth of it or not. Rumors and gossip abound. It could be true and it is likely true, but no witnesses are around- this goes against scripture, it is still speculation. It can be dangerous especially when presented as fact, when in reality it is just likely or the preponderance of evidence that WE have is pointing htat way, but it may not be all the evidence or information. We are not the court of law. Inevitably the response will be something like "but secret combinations" yep, there are some, but looking at the Nephite people who thought they had truth and were "special in their Christendom", it seems they fell to the combos despite all their crying out against it. The only truly safe way to not fall yourself to a secret combo, is to turn to God and make sure you are pure in heart and keep seeking Him, otherwise, chances are, you may get swept up in them, in someway shape or form- and secret combos aren't just the literal groups... it begins in our hearts. The word of God planted in our hearts can then spread and bring others to God..

Again, I'm not against being vocal or speaking truth, or causing offense, but I think more often than not there is a bitterness that creeps in or a pre-judgment or the words are said to CAUSE offense, not to shake htem free. It is the difference between telling someone you are sorry because you have to, and telling someone you are sorry because you mean it, and you mean it for them, not for yourself. The person on the receiving end can tell the difference. Are we doing what we are doing for oursakes, or for others? Are we being loud brass or light tinkling cymbal, it doesn't matter if we aren't doing it in love. As Paul says again " 5The goal of our instruction is the love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and a sincere faith. 6Some have strayed from these ways and turned aside to empty talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not understand what they are saying or that which they so confidently assert."... 14And the grace of our Lord overflowed to me, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.,of whom I am the worst. 16But for this very reason I was shown mercy, so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display His perfect patience as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life If we forget the purpose of God was to save and to redeem and to restore us to relationship with the Father and see that for others, and don't understand or see that for others... then we are just making loud sounds - for it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.
I appreciate the thoughts. What I find interesting is that the words I chose are almost exclusively directed toward church leaders. Nephi, Moroni, Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma at some point addressed those in some position of leadership or authority. All of them. When taken into context, it becomes quite damning what we are seeing today.

BTW, the “bitterness” we often see very often is conjured up in the mind of the person. A soft-spoken, kind-hearted person will feel like these words are harsh and terse… and some of them are, but often these words are spoken with a plea to repent and come unto Christ.

For me, I am honestly heart-broken at what has become of the restoration.
Sure, the shepherds are often leading astray. The problem I perceive is that often we attack the shepherds but don't offer an alternative or teach htem the alternative to know how to come to the great shepherd. I guess (and this isn't directed at you) I see a great lack of true testimony and more just a lot of attacking. When I say testimony I mean experience to teach and draw more people to Christ. OFten we reduce to "leaders bad, Jesus good" but they have been taught by the Leaders a false understanding of Jesus. I think we miss out on really sharing hte good news a lot and share just how everything is bad. I know I did that a lot when I found out about ost of this stuff 5 or 6 years ago. I guess I'm just worried that we are beginning to even "hate" the false shepherds. Perhaps that is of my own perception, but though you might not feel it in your heart, others don't perceive the same way. It is why I am careful how I say things so it doesn't sow more bitterness in others.
Perhaps... I know too many people that speak in bitterness toward teh church and leaders and I hear them (in person). When I talk to them about it, they are heartbroken and bitter. They admit it- so it isn't just my "wrong perception." I suspect it is more common on this board than we think too.

User avatar
David13
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7072
Location: Utah

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by David13 »

Watchman I think you are probably just where you should be. And saying just what you should be saying.

I don't actually know all the details but I think in all probability my point of view is:

Good job, keep up the good work.
dc

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10353
Contact:

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by marc »

One of my favorite not-so-subtle descriptions employed by Isaiah is "Drunkards of Ephraim." Guess who he was talking about?

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15316
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:43 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:14 am
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:04 am To offer another perspective, I think context is key. Rarely are those words used individually, but are normally collective. Often it is the Lord giving a description of the people to the prophets and the prophets relaying that message rather than them telling each individual they are "wicked."

See the problem isn't so much the words, it is how they are used. Most of the time people say them out of anger, frustration, self-pity, hate etc. They are used in the wrong sense and with a wrong motive more as an accusation rather than as a method to jar them to reality so they come to God. In scripture They are also usually followed up by the invitation to repent or a promise of what will happen if they do repent or don't repent - this means that God sees them as doing wicked things, but He doesn't "leave" them there. There is an invitation - the inviatation is usually through some allusion of Christ (in the old testament) and in the New it is Christ.

The Gospels teach us that we are to go forth and preach "the Kingdom is near and to repent and make disciples" Too often we preach "repentance" or some bastardized version of it, usually degraded to "they are evil so if you believe them you are evil too" but little do we teach that the Kingdom of God is near and what that means - if we do it is more "hellfire and damnation" which is ironic considering that Christ came to save and not to condemn, for we are already condemned if we don't beleive- there will be a time of judgment, but now is not the time, if it were, you and I wouldn't be communicating right now. God delays His judgments because he is gathering in his people and waiting for the wheat to grow strong (which implies it is weak) so we ought to delay ours.

In our tongues, as James says, we have the power to give life or death. What we say and how we say it sows seeds. Generally if we are frustrated or angry when we respond to someone, it shows that within us, even if the words are true, we are doing it for the wrong reason, we are being selfish or self-focused. This goes with other self-focused emotions too. WE have to search our own hearts, look inside and make sure we are responding for hte benefit of others and not to "feel better about ourselves." It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance - now there may be times when we speak harshly to people, but it is not all the time the Holy Spirit will guide. Until we understand how much God loves each person and actually love them, often we are doing a disservice by speaking what we perceive to be truth - even if it is truth, it is not in the right time or the right manner. Depending on your view of the Garden of Eden, Satan is a perfect example of that. Satan told truths, but they were not done with good intent - they were self-focused, with hte intent to rule in God's stead. I'm not saying we can't tell people to repent, but often people don't even know what "repent" means. You tell them they are wicked? They may be offended. We write it off using scripture as "The wicked take the truth to be hard" and pat ourselves on the back about it, not even caring if what we did or how we did it was the way God desired us to. Did we actually feel empathy for hte person we were correcting? Did we do it to feel better about ourself? Did we do it because if we are frustrated with them? Did they anger us? Do we see their full potential as God does, that Christ came to give His life so they might have life? Do we see that even if that person doesn't understand now, that they can? Do we water our pillows with tears at night crying out for the welfare of that soul, not just asking God to "make them see truth" (which is often because we are frustrated with them) but rather that they might know God and His love? That grace would fall on our words, that we might be transformed more into the image of God to share the truth He wants us to share and not what we "think" they need to hear? God sees the infinite potential in each of His children, do we? Do we see with an eye of faith that they can become like Christ? Do we believe in the magnificent power and grace of Christ to transform them in the blink of an eye and are we ready to embrace them as little children when they do repent and teach them how to continue in grace in truth to know God? Or Have we unintentionally set ourselves up on our own rameumptom? Do we take the glory to ourselves or God? God is good. He loves us. I think too often we share the punishment of God without even knowing hte love of God. Too often people preach just the "love" of God without knowing what that means. The amazing transformation that happens when one receives forgiveness and realizes how fallen they were, then they can see how God can change anyone. Faith, hope and Charity. As Paul says, (though I know there seems to be a mormon trend to trash on Paul, the words spoken by him are true and from God " Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal (either loud sounds or soft sounds, it doesn't matter, it is just noise)

I also think it is dangerous (and I've seen this on the forum) where we jump to conclusions on the guilt of some people without regard to the truth of it or not. Rumors and gossip abound. It could be true and it is likely true, but no witnesses are around- this goes against scripture, it is still speculation. It can be dangerous especially when presented as fact, when in reality it is just likely or the preponderance of evidence that WE have is pointing htat way, but it may not be all the evidence or information. We are not the court of law. Inevitably the response will be something like "but secret combinations" yep, there are some, but looking at the Nephite people who thought they had truth and were "special in their Christendom", it seems they fell to the combos despite all their crying out against it. The only truly safe way to not fall yourself to a secret combo, is to turn to God and make sure you are pure in heart and keep seeking Him, otherwise, chances are, you may get swept up in them, in someway shape or form- and secret combos aren't just the literal groups... it begins in our hearts. The word of God planted in our hearts can then spread and bring others to God..

Again, I'm not against being vocal or speaking truth, or causing offense, but I think more often than not there is a bitterness that creeps in or a pre-judgment or the words are said to CAUSE offense, not to shake htem free. It is the difference between telling someone you are sorry because you have to, and telling someone you are sorry because you mean it, and you mean it for them, not for yourself. The person on the receiving end can tell the difference. Are we doing what we are doing for oursakes, or for others? Are we being loud brass or light tinkling cymbal, it doesn't matter if we aren't doing it in love. As Paul says again " 5The goal of our instruction is the love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and a sincere faith. 6Some have strayed from these ways and turned aside to empty talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not understand what they are saying or that which they so confidently assert."... 14And the grace of our Lord overflowed to me, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.,of whom I am the worst. 16But for this very reason I was shown mercy, so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display His perfect patience as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life If we forget the purpose of God was to save and to redeem and to restore us to relationship with the Father and see that for others, and don't understand or see that for others... then we are just making loud sounds - for it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.
I appreciate the thoughts. What I find interesting is that the words I chose are almost exclusively directed toward church leaders. Nephi, Moroni, Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma at some point addressed those in some position of leadership or authority. All of them. When taken into context, it becomes quite damning what we are seeing today.

BTW, the “bitterness” we often see very often is conjured up in the mind of the person. A soft-spoken, kind-hearted person will feel like these words are harsh and terse… and some of them are, but often these words are spoken with a plea to repent and come unto Christ.

For me, I am honestly heart-broken at what has become of the restoration.
Sure, the shepherds are often leading astray. The problem I perceive is that often we attack the shepherds but don't offer an alternative or teach htem the alternative to know how to come to the great shepherd. I guess (and this isn't directed at you) I see a great lack of true testimony and more just a lot of attacking. When I say testimony I mean experience to teach and draw more people to Christ. OFten we reduce to "leaders bad, Jesus good" but they have been taught by the Leaders a false understanding of Jesus. I think we miss out on really sharing hte good news a lot and share just how everything is bad. I know I did that a lot when I found out about ost of this stuff 5 or 6 years ago. I guess I'm just worried that we are beginning to even "hate" the false shepherds. Perhaps that is of my own perception, but though you might not feel it in your heart, others don't perceive the same way. It is why I am careful how I say things so it doesn't sow more bitterness in others.
Perhaps... I know too many people that speak in bitterness toward teh church and leaders and I hear them (in person). When I talk to them about it, they are heartbroken and bitter. They admit it- so it isn't just my "wrong perception." I suspect it is more common on this board than we think too.
In every single one of my essays I point to what is taught in the scriptures, hopefully depicting why and how we have gone astray. One teaching against another. You can’t preach how we have gone astray if you don’t have something to compare it against.

I take the simple example of the temple ceremony. At first I couldn’t say much about it, other than some things didn’t sit right with me. Now, I have much greater knowledge about what the temple should be and how ordinances and covenants should be taught. I’ve expressed those thoughts in many places on the forum, often along side what I perceive as false beliefs for twisting of doctrine.

Any why not be heartbroken, and even a litter bitter, when many of us have propped them men up as idols per the teachings of the church?

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15316
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

marc wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:53 am One of my favorite not-so-subtle descriptions employed by Isaiah is "Drunkards of Ephraim." Guess who he was talking about?
A crafty one he was.

User avatar
Chip
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7909
Location: California

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Chip »

2020-03-16-Jesus-driving-moneychangers-out-of-temple.jpg
2020-03-16-Jesus-driving-moneychangers-out-of-temple.jpg (48.87 KiB) Viewed 717 times

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10353
Contact:

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by marc »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 10:09 am
marc wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:53 am One of my favorite not-so-subtle descriptions employed by Isaiah is "Drunkards of Ephraim." Guess who he was talking about?
A crafty one he was.
You know you've struck a nerve with people when they put you in a hollow log and cut it in half with you in it. Excommunications back then were brutal.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12975
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Thinker »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 6:32 am... I’d love to simply sit back and focus on the happy things. And at times I do. I love contemplating the depth and beauty of Christ’s teachings. But I think we are amiss if we don’t wake up to the reality that we live in the days in which all of these words noted above are on full display. To sit back quietly and think none of this is happening is to be spiritually blind. ALL of these things are happening within the churches of our day…
As David mentioned, overall, I think you’re doing a good, important job. Not the funnest job when so many want to shoot the messenger - but someone’s gotta do it. Reluctant Watchman is an appropriate name.

I think life happens in stages. Luckily we’re not asked to do anything unpleasant for too long. Eventually someone else takes the baton. For a while, I felt pulled toward warning people about things (like harmful homosexuality becoming normalized, church financial corruption, abortion facts, etc.). A lot of my preaching was on forums of which I was the only one sharing those views. I was hated, called names, banned & 1 guy even stocked & threatened to kill me. Definitely not a fun job. But at the time, I felt obligated to shed light on things. And occasionally someone would tell me they appreciated & never considered some things I brought up. Hopefully some good came out of it.

But it took a toll, & though occasionally I still shed light on “inconvenient truths,” generally, I’ve chilled a bit. But I am really glad for others like you who keep shedding light on important things, even if they’re truths many take to be hard.

Paraphrasing: “Maturity is based on the number and type of truths one is able to handle.”
A big part of life is increasing our capacity for truth/God.

User avatar
BenMcCrea
captain of 100
Posts: 224

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by BenMcCrea »

I really hope, those of you who sit on self appointed seats of judgement and accusation, that your own lives are in order and beyond reproach. The Lord’s sceptre of judgement will come down heavily upon those who spend their lives judging and accusing others - especially if they themselves are not spotless.

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by John Tavner »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 10:08 am
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:43 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:14 am
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:04 am To offer another perspective, I think context is key. Rarely are those words used individually, but are normally collective. Often it is the Lord giving a description of the people to the prophets and the prophets relaying that message rather than them telling each individual they are "wicked."

See the problem isn't so much the words, it is how they are used. Most of the time people say them out of anger, frustration, self-pity, hate etc. They are used in the wrong sense and with a wrong motive more as an accusation rather than as a method to jar them to reality so they come to God. In scripture They are also usually followed up by the invitation to repent or a promise of what will happen if they do repent or don't repent - this means that God sees them as doing wicked things, but He doesn't "leave" them there. There is an invitation - the inviatation is usually through some allusion of Christ (in the old testament) and in the New it is Christ.

The Gospels teach us that we are to go forth and preach "the Kingdom is near and to repent and make disciples" Too often we preach "repentance" or some bastardized version of it, usually degraded to "they are evil so if you believe them you are evil too" but little do we teach that the Kingdom of God is near and what that means - if we do it is more "hellfire and damnation" which is ironic considering that Christ came to save and not to condemn, for we are already condemned if we don't beleive- there will be a time of judgment, but now is not the time, if it were, you and I wouldn't be communicating right now. God delays His judgments because he is gathering in his people and waiting for the wheat to grow strong (which implies it is weak) so we ought to delay ours.

In our tongues, as James says, we have the power to give life or death. What we say and how we say it sows seeds. Generally if we are frustrated or angry when we respond to someone, it shows that within us, even if the words are true, we are doing it for the wrong reason, we are being selfish or self-focused. This goes with other self-focused emotions too. WE have to search our own hearts, look inside and make sure we are responding for hte benefit of others and not to "feel better about ourselves." It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance - now there may be times when we speak harshly to people, but it is not all the time the Holy Spirit will guide. Until we understand how much God loves each person and actually love them, often we are doing a disservice by speaking what we perceive to be truth - even if it is truth, it is not in the right time or the right manner. Depending on your view of the Garden of Eden, Satan is a perfect example of that. Satan told truths, but they were not done with good intent - they were self-focused, with hte intent to rule in God's stead. I'm not saying we can't tell people to repent, but often people don't even know what "repent" means. You tell them they are wicked? They may be offended. We write it off using scripture as "The wicked take the truth to be hard" and pat ourselves on the back about it, not even caring if what we did or how we did it was the way God desired us to. Did we actually feel empathy for hte person we were correcting? Did we do it to feel better about ourself? Did we do it because if we are frustrated with them? Did they anger us? Do we see their full potential as God does, that Christ came to give His life so they might have life? Do we see that even if that person doesn't understand now, that they can? Do we water our pillows with tears at night crying out for the welfare of that soul, not just asking God to "make them see truth" (which is often because we are frustrated with them) but rather that they might know God and His love? That grace would fall on our words, that we might be transformed more into the image of God to share the truth He wants us to share and not what we "think" they need to hear? God sees the infinite potential in each of His children, do we? Do we see with an eye of faith that they can become like Christ? Do we believe in the magnificent power and grace of Christ to transform them in the blink of an eye and are we ready to embrace them as little children when they do repent and teach them how to continue in grace in truth to know God? Or Have we unintentionally set ourselves up on our own rameumptom? Do we take the glory to ourselves or God? God is good. He loves us. I think too often we share the punishment of God without even knowing hte love of God. Too often people preach just the "love" of God without knowing what that means. The amazing transformation that happens when one receives forgiveness and realizes how fallen they were, then they can see how God can change anyone. Faith, hope and Charity. As Paul says, (though I know there seems to be a mormon trend to trash on Paul, the words spoken by him are true and from God " Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal (either loud sounds or soft sounds, it doesn't matter, it is just noise)

I also think it is dangerous (and I've seen this on the forum) where we jump to conclusions on the guilt of some people without regard to the truth of it or not. Rumors and gossip abound. It could be true and it is likely true, but no witnesses are around- this goes against scripture, it is still speculation. It can be dangerous especially when presented as fact, when in reality it is just likely or the preponderance of evidence that WE have is pointing htat way, but it may not be all the evidence or information. We are not the court of law. Inevitably the response will be something like "but secret combinations" yep, there are some, but looking at the Nephite people who thought they had truth and were "special in their Christendom", it seems they fell to the combos despite all their crying out against it. The only truly safe way to not fall yourself to a secret combo, is to turn to God and make sure you are pure in heart and keep seeking Him, otherwise, chances are, you may get swept up in them, in someway shape or form- and secret combos aren't just the literal groups... it begins in our hearts. The word of God planted in our hearts can then spread and bring others to God..

Again, I'm not against being vocal or speaking truth, or causing offense, but I think more often than not there is a bitterness that creeps in or a pre-judgment or the words are said to CAUSE offense, not to shake htem free. It is the difference between telling someone you are sorry because you have to, and telling someone you are sorry because you mean it, and you mean it for them, not for yourself. The person on the receiving end can tell the difference. Are we doing what we are doing for oursakes, or for others? Are we being loud brass or light tinkling cymbal, it doesn't matter if we aren't doing it in love. As Paul says again " 5The goal of our instruction is the love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and a sincere faith. 6Some have strayed from these ways and turned aside to empty talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not understand what they are saying or that which they so confidently assert."... 14And the grace of our Lord overflowed to me, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.,of whom I am the worst. 16But for this very reason I was shown mercy, so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display His perfect patience as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life If we forget the purpose of God was to save and to redeem and to restore us to relationship with the Father and see that for others, and don't understand or see that for others... then we are just making loud sounds - for it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.
I appreciate the thoughts. What I find interesting is that the words I chose are almost exclusively directed toward church leaders. Nephi, Moroni, Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma at some point addressed those in some position of leadership or authority. All of them. When taken into context, it becomes quite damning what we are seeing today.

BTW, the “bitterness” we often see very often is conjured up in the mind of the person. A soft-spoken, kind-hearted person will feel like these words are harsh and terse… and some of them are, but often these words are spoken with a plea to repent and come unto Christ.

For me, I am honestly heart-broken at what has become of the restoration.
Sure, the shepherds are often leading astray. The problem I perceive is that often we attack the shepherds but don't offer an alternative or teach htem the alternative to know how to come to the great shepherd. I guess (and this isn't directed at you) I see a great lack of true testimony and more just a lot of attacking. When I say testimony I mean experience to teach and draw more people to Christ. OFten we reduce to "leaders bad, Jesus good" but they have been taught by the Leaders a false understanding of Jesus. I think we miss out on really sharing hte good news a lot and share just how everything is bad. I know I did that a lot when I found out about ost of this stuff 5 or 6 years ago. I guess I'm just worried that we are beginning to even "hate" the false shepherds. Perhaps that is of my own perception, but though you might not feel it in your heart, others don't perceive the same way. It is why I am careful how I say things so it doesn't sow more bitterness in others.
Perhaps... I know too many people that speak in bitterness toward teh church and leaders and I hear them (in person). When I talk to them about it, they are heartbroken and bitter. They admit it- so it isn't just my "wrong perception." I suspect it is more common on this board than we think too.
In every single one of my essays I point to what is taught in the scriptures, hopefully depicting why and how we have gone astray. One teaching against another. You can’t preach how we have gone astray if you don’t have something to compare it against.

I take the simple example of the temple ceremony. At first I couldn’t say much about it, other than some things didn’t sit right with me. Now, I have much greater knowledge about what the temple should be and how ordinances and covenants should be taught. I’ve expressed those thoughts in many places on the forum, often along side what I perceive as false beliefs for twisting of doctrine.

Any why not be heartbroken, and even a litter bitter, when many of us have propped them men up as idols per the teachings of the church?
I don't read your essays, so I don't know what you do don't say. I'm also not saying we can't preach against going astray. It is the intent and pureness of our heart as we do so that matters - and not the "I"m right" "you're wrong." The purpose is to establish righteousness.

The temple ceremony definitely has a lot of good symbolism- but like all things one can find evil in it if they seek it or good. It depends on what we are looking for the real question comes down to the intent of those who receive or study it.

Because a bitter well can not bring forth sweet water. Imagine if Jesus was bitter because He was betrayed... we would all be screwed. We have to make sure our own hearts are pure - otherwise it will sow bitterness and bitterness is not God - whom we are to represent. Again, I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong.
Last edited by John Tavner on February 4th, 2023, 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
HereWeGo
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1220

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by HereWeGo »

Since the title of this thread is in quotes, I assume this statement was made about you. Ignore it. You are fine. He can't take the challenge and it is making him tired.

My simple response to the person who wrote this and others who feel this way is: If you are tired, take a break and go take a nap. I am guessing this came from an older person. Go take a nap. :)

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15316
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

BenMcCrea wrote: February 4th, 2023, 11:16 am I really hope, those of you who sit on self appointed seats of judgement and accusation, that your own lives are in order and beyond reproach. The Lord’s sceptre of judgement will come down heavily upon those who spend their lives judging and accusing others - especially if they themselves are not spotless.
Your approach is interesting, and so is your perspective. I lived my entire live in a church that was a facade of what it should be. And some things are downright evil, directly contradicting the scriptures. And the church acknowledges that.

What you perceive as “self-appointed seats of judgment” are not that at all. We have been commanded to judge the fruits of prophets. We have been commanded to make righteous judgments. What is surprising to me is how you come to the remarks you have after all I’ve done is select words from past prophets that highlight the evil that pervades our society today.

What am I supposed to do when a person who has placed themselves on a “self-appointed seat of judgment” tells me that I cannot contradict them, or that my salvation hangs upon following them, when the Spirit has clearly inspired me to not follow them?

As I’ve noted many times, in many threads, the condemnation that we see often in scripture and here on the forum comes because of clear deviations from the written word and the witness of the Holy Ghost. Take from that what you will. I’m the first person to acknowledge my imperfections, yet I look forward with great anticipation to the day of judgement.

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5863
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by TheDuke »

marc wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:53 am One of my favorite not-so-subtle descriptions employed by Isaiah is "Drunkards of Ephraim." Guess who he was talking about?
Exactly who are they talking about Marc?

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10353
Contact:

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by marc »

TheDuke wrote: February 4th, 2023, 11:53 am
marc wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:53 am One of my favorite not-so-subtle descriptions employed by Isaiah is "Drunkards of Ephraim." Guess who he was talking about?
Exactly who are they talking about Marc?
Those grafted into Ephraim in the last days. Many are LDS who love power, money, Babylon. I go into greater detail in the linked blog.

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3623

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Bronco73idi »

Words directed at apostles….

17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

People say I’m mean when I tell the “how long shall I suffer you?”

Hmmmm

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15316
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 11:24 am I don't read your essays, so I don't know what you do don't say. I'm also not saying we can't preach against going astray. It is the intent and pureness of our heart as we do so that matters - and not the "I"m right" "you're wrong." The purpose is to establish righteousness.

The temple ceremony definitely has a lot of good symbolism- but like all things one can find evil in it if they seek it or good. It depends on what we are looking for the real question comes down to the intent of those who receive or study it.

Because a bitter well can not bring forth sweet water. Imagine if Jesus was bitter because He was betrayed... we would all be screwed. We have to make sure our own hearts are pure - otherwise it will sow bitterness and bitterness is not God - whom we are to represent. Again, I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong.
That’s cool if you don’t want to read any of my essays. I don’t blame people for avoiding them. But I would be hesitant to judge a person if I didn’t read or gain a greater understanding of their perspective.

I also think you’ve misconstrued your statement of “I’m right vs you’re wrong.” It should be “What’s right vs. what’s wrong.” I don’t care WHO is right, unless we are talking about a witness of the Spirit. And we should be rigorously engaged in the task of finding out what Jesus taught as His doctrine and other exalting principles.

My comment about the temple comes from reading the Nemenhah Record. If you haven’t read it, then you’ll have no idea why I approach the subjects with an eye of scrutiny. I’ll never look at the endowment the same way again. Joseph was striving to give us so many wonderful things, only to have them distorted and/or lost. And then the gatekeepers came in with their keys and authority, incorrect tithes, and sustaining crap and it has lost all meaning for me for what the church thinks is an endowment.

But don’t worry, a person can come to their own convictions of what those laws means and they can covenant with the Lord to keep them, regardless of what a church leader does or doesn’t approve of.
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on February 4th, 2023, 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply