How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

What does it mean to sustain my Church leaders?
As members of the Church, we have the opportunity to sustain those the Lord has called to serve. We raise our hand to indicate that we sustain the General Authorities and officers of the Church and each of the leaders in our wards and stakes—including Young Women class presidencies. Sustaining leaders involves more than just a raised hand—it means that we stand behind them, pray for them, accept assignments and callings from them, obey their counsel, and refrain from criticizing them.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... r?lang=eng

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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

This one aged well:

“ When we criticize our leaders or disregard their counsel, we allow the adversary to lead us astray.
There are those among us … who have been blinded by the philosophies and foolishness of men. There are those who reject the advice and counsel of the man that God has placed at the head of this Church. …”

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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

Subcomandante wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 7:53 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 3:08 pm 7. Do you support or promote any teachings, practices, or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

How can any member of the Q15 answer this question with a straight face after supporting and promoting the federal gay marriage law?
The only reason why I think the Church is not more forceful on this stance like it was before is because it still has to run in this telestial world, and having the Church cancelled worldwide would be most inconvenient.
********
Thankfully we have wise people leading the Church, whom God has entrusted with the operation of His Church. I would love the Church to be able to get off of the current system of monies, I would love the Church to be able to build up Zion as the scriptures prophesy.
I've snipped out the parts I'm not going to address.

There's some problems with this line of thinking. First off, if the leadership and members would stop putting their faith and trust in the arm of the flesh, nothing man or Satan could do would halt the progress and mission of the Church. The Q15 prayed for a vaccine to end the pandemic. They didn't pray for Divine protection so that the pandemic would end and they didn't bother using the priesthood to rebuke the virus. Instead, they relied on the arm of the flesh; they relied on a badly flawed telestial science when they could have had access to the power of God. Instead of exercising faith, a united faith, in God, they chose to have faith in man. And what happened? The progress and mission of the Church was stopped dead in its tracks. All the chapels, temples, and MTC's were closed, missionaries were called home, priesthood blessings were stopped and eventually, a large number of members never returned to church. That's what happens when you rely on the arm of the flesh!

Dr Nelson trusted in his former medical profession and the seriously corrupt big pharma and FDA instead of trusting God. By stating that the Brethren immediately began fasting and praying for a vaccine demonstrated an incredible ignorance as to the realities of the Gadiantons. Then calling it a "literal godsend" after they fasted and prayed for it was to claim it was revelation. Trying to claim that it wasn't doctrine will not make it any less of a lie. Dr Nelson's judgment relied on his own arm of flesh. That was not wise.

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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Another interesting one form Haight:

“ In general conference in October 1994, Elder David B. Haight said: “When we sustain the President of the Church by our uplifted hand, it not only signifies that we acknowledge before God that he is the rightful possessor of all the priesthood keys; it means that we covenant with God that we will abide by the direction and the counsel that comes through His prophet. It is a solemn covenant” (Ensign, Nov. 1994, 14–15).

I pondered the words of Elder Haight. I considered the commitment I was making when I raised my hand and made a solemn covenant with God that I would sustain the prophet.”

Did all of you now that to sustain a church leader you have essentially made a covenant with God to follow man?

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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

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To sustain is to obey:

“ In 1919, Elder George Albert Smith—who became President of the Church in 1945—again spoke of sustaining in the context adopted in the formative years of the Church. “The obligation that we make when we raise our hands … is a most sacred one. It does not mean that we will go quietly on our way and be willing that the prophet of the Lord shall direct this work, but it means … that we will stand behind him; we will pray for him; we will defend his good name, and we will strive to carry out his instructions as the Lord shall direct”

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JLHPROF
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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by JLHPROF »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:17 pm
JLHPROF wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:14 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 7:38 pm
JLHPROF wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 7:11 pm

This is such an easy one to sidestep unless you are making public protests.
What do you mean?
I mean I feel like I can answer the wording honestly with a yes and I don't agree with the Church on a lot of things.
I guess what I'm asking is, is how can THEY (the Q15) answer this specific question?
The same way I can. They don't believe they are in violation in any way. Why would they? According to the official Church position the official doctrine of the Church is whatever they say it is.

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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

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JLHPROF wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:46 pm They don't believe they are in violation in any way. Why would they? According to the official Church position the official doctrine of the Church is whatever they say it is.
I”m honestly beside myself with this one.

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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Here’s more correlation between sustaining, covenanting with man, and obedience: Joseph F. Smith

“ We raise our hands in token of a covenant to uphold and sustain our leaders.
In my judgment, one of the most important acts performed at the conferences of the Church is that in which we hold up our hands before the Lord to sustain the authorities of the Church and the organization thereof as it exists. But it is one of the important things that we do which rests with little weight upon some people. In other words, some people go away after holding up their hands to sustain the authorities of the Church and think no more about it, and act in many respects as though they had merely gone through a form to which they did not attach any importance whatever. I conceive this to be a wrong principle. … Those who covenant to keep the commandments of the Lord, and then violate that covenant by failing to observe those commandments, do no more than they do who raise their hands in token of a covenant to uphold and sustain the authorities of the Church and then fail to do it. The principle is the same in both cases: it is a violation of the covenant we make”

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JLHPROF
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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by JLHPROF »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:50 pm
JLHPROF wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:46 pm They don't believe they are in violation in any way. Why would they? According to the official Church position the official doctrine of the Church is whatever they say it is.
I”m honestly beside myself with this one.
Just pointing out their position in answer to his question. It doesn't necessarily reflect my view in every instance. I think they get plenty wrong. They don't. Therefore they never think they violate Church doctrine.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

JLHPROF wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:46 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:17 pm
JLHPROF wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:14 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 7:38 pm

What do you mean?
I mean I feel like I can answer the wording honestly with a yes and I don't agree with the Church on a lot of things.
I guess what I'm asking is, is how can THEY (the Q15) answer this specific question?
The same way I can. They don't believe they are in violation in any way. Why would they? According to the official Church position the official doctrine of the Church is whatever they say it is.
But... how can they actually believe that when they obviously support and promote teachings and practices contrary to the LDS church?

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JLHPROF
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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by JLHPROF »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 10:10 pm
JLHPROF wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:46 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:17 pm
JLHPROF wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:14 pm
I mean I feel like I can answer the wording honestly with a yes and I don't agree with the Church on a lot of things.
I guess what I'm asking is, is how can THEY (the Q15) answer this specific question?
The same way I can. They don't believe they are in violation in any way. Why would they? According to the official Church position the official doctrine of the Church is whatever they say it is.
But... how can they actually believe that when they obviously support and promote teachings and practices contrary to the LDS church?
I'm not sure you're getting it.
They don't think they are because whatever they believe is how they define Church doctrine.

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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

JLHPROF wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 10:25 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 10:10 pm
JLHPROF wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:46 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:17 pm

I guess what I'm asking is, is how can THEY (the Q15) answer this specific question?
The same way I can. They don't believe they are in violation in any way. Why would they? According to the official Church position the official doctrine of the Church is whatever they say it is.
But... how can they actually believe that when they obviously support and promote teachings and practices contrary to the LDS church?
I'm not sure you're getting it.
They don't think they are because whatever they believe is how they define Church doctrine.
Right, I get that... but what could their explanation be... to say... a gathering of reporters asking this question to them?

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JLHPROF
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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by JLHPROF »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 10:46 pm
JLHPROF wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 10:25 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 10:10 pm
JLHPROF wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:46 pm

The same way I can. They don't believe they are in violation in any way. Why would they? According to the official Church position the official doctrine of the Church is whatever they say it is.
But... how can they actually believe that when they obviously support and promote teachings and practices contrary to the LDS church?
I'm not sure you're getting it.
They don't think they are because whatever they believe is how they define Church doctrine.
Right, I get that... but what could their explanation be... to say... a gathering of reporters asking this question to them?
The usual. Living prophet, continuing revelation, further light knowledge, what may be wrong in one circumstance...yada yada.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

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Subcomandante wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 7:53 pm The only reason why I think the Church is not more forceful on this stance like it was before is because it still has to run in this telestial world, and having the Church cancelled worldwide would be most inconvenient.
It's a real shame that God is so weak that he doesn't have any power to resist the world at all. Good thing we've got church leaders who know how to bend to Babylon's will in 'practical' ways so that God's church doesn't get snuffed out so easily.

(Sorry to pile on to Sub, he's a good guy, but I've seen this explanation many times before and I don't think it really holds water)

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

"How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?"

Probably the same way Joe Biden got eleventy kabillion votes. :)

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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

JLHPROF wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 11:05 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 10:46 pm
JLHPROF wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 10:25 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 10:10 pm

But... how can they actually believe that when they obviously support and promote teachings and practices contrary to the LDS church?
I'm not sure you're getting it.
They don't think they are because whatever they believe is how they define Church doctrine.
Right, I get that... but what could their explanation be... to say... a gathering of reporters asking this question to them?
The usual. Living prophet, continuing revelation, further light knowledge, what may be wrong in one circumstance...yada yada.
Are you saying that gay marriage is not a sin? Or are you saying that that's the excuse they would give a reporter?

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LDS Physician
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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by LDS Physician »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 3:42 pm
Niemand wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 3:34 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 3:32 pm
Niemand wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 3:28 pm

Because they are the Church?*

* In organisational terms.
Yes, I know that they are exempt from needing Temple Recommend interviews. But... how can they expect US to answer that question faithfully while they do not even qualify on its face?
Because you are thinking in spiritual terms and they are thinking in terms of the corporation of the president.
Will they tell you that, though? ;)

I'm curious as to what people think.... what are some possible answers would they give if they were asked this in a press conference?
I'll tell you what they said. I was just in a meeting with one of the 12 (long story) and he stated that the church supported that act because of the religious freedom provisions in it ... they wanted to support those parts of the bill.

What I didn't mention is that the religious freedom provisions were already in the bill when the church voiced its support of it, so the church didn't need to say a single thing about it and could have avoided controversy and eyebrow-raising.

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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by LDS Physician »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 4:48 pm When I was in president Monson's Ward the leadership got up one of the days Monson was there in Sacrament, and joked about who interviews who for the temple recommend interview. Does Monson go to his Ward Bishop like the rest of us have to? Everyone chuckled, and the answer was that Monson signs his own recommend. Everybody chuckled and they talked about something else.

If the church wasted the paper and required Monson or any of the other paid leaders to hand over a recommend at the door instead of just letting then in the back door, I'd be shocked. (Monson didn't even use his own front door to his own house, the armed drivers pulled his million dollar Audi with the bulletproof glass up to the back secret gate next to my old house. 😉🤫)
There was a couple of week period during which I was the bishop and also a member of the stake presidency. So I took the opportunity to sign my own recommend ... in all three signature slots. LOL.

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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

LDS Physician wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:17 am
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 4:48 pm When I was in president Monson's Ward the leadership got up one of the days Monson was there in Sacrament, and joked about who interviews who for the temple recommend interview. Does Monson go to his Ward Bishop like the rest of us have to? Everyone chuckled, and the answer was that Monson signs his own recommend. Everybody chuckled and they talked about something else.

If the church wasted the paper and required Monson or any of the other paid leaders to hand over a recommend at the door instead of just letting then in the back door, I'd be shocked. (Monson didn't even use his own front door to his own house, the armed drivers pulled his million dollar Audi with the bulletproof glass up to the back secret gate next to my old house. 😉🤫)
There was a couple of week period during which I was the bishop and also a member of the stake presidency. So I took the opportunity to sign my own recommend ... in all three signature slots. LOL.
Wait a minute… you don’t get interviewed while serving in the stake presidency?

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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by silverado »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:44 pm To sustain is to obey:

“ In 1919, Elder George Albert Smith—who became President of the Church in 1945—again spoke of sustaining in the context adopted in the formative years of the Church. “The obligation that we make when we raise our hands … is a most sacred one. It does not mean that we will go quietly on our way and be willing that the prophet of the Lord shall direct this work, but it means … that we will stand behind him; we will pray for him; we will defend his good name, and we will strive to carry out his instructions as the Lord shall direct”
I think "As the Lord shall direct" are the important words here. As (when) the Lord directs the prophet and as the Lord directs each of us.

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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

silverado wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:36 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 8:44 pm To sustain is to obey:

“ In 1919, Elder George Albert Smith—who became President of the Church in 1945—again spoke of sustaining in the context adopted in the formative years of the Church. “The obligation that we make when we raise our hands … is a most sacred one. It does not mean that we will go quietly on our way and be willing that the prophet of the Lord shall direct this work, but it means … that we will stand behind him; we will pray for him; we will defend his good name, and we will strive to carry out his instructions as the Lord shall direct”
I think "As the Lord shall direct" are the important words here. As (when) the Lord directs the prophet and as the Lord directs each of us.
Yes, those are important words. But, as the church teaches, the Lord ALWAYS directs the president of the corporation and he can never lead you astray. They teach half or partial truths all the time. Rarely will you ever see them add that part that we should not sustain them unless WE receive a witness of the Spirit. They are being deceptive. Why not teach the gospel of “sustaining” in its simplicity from the BoM or the Bible…?

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LDS Physician
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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by LDS Physician »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:20 am
LDS Physician wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:17 am
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 4:48 pm When I was in president Monson's Ward the leadership got up one of the days Monson was there in Sacrament, and joked about who interviews who for the temple recommend interview. Does Monson go to his Ward Bishop like the rest of us have to? Everyone chuckled, and the answer was that Monson signs his own recommend. Everybody chuckled and they talked about something else.

If the church wasted the paper and required Monson or any of the other paid leaders to hand over a recommend at the door instead of just letting then in the back door, I'd be shocked. (Monson didn't even use his own front door to his own house, the armed drivers pulled his million dollar Audi with the bulletproof glass up to the back secret gate next to my old house. 😉🤫)
There was a couple of week period during which I was the bishop and also a member of the stake presidency. So I took the opportunity to sign my own recommend ... in all three signature slots. LOL.
Wait a minute… you don’t get interviewed while serving in the stake presidency?
We get interviewed by a member of the bishopric. We can approve our own recommends at the stake level (at least that's what I've been doing and what my last stake president was doing).

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Fred
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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by Fred »

LDS Physician wrote: February 4th, 2023, 10:20 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:20 am
LDS Physician wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:17 am
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 4:48 pm When I was in president Monson's Ward the leadership got up one of the days Monson was there in Sacrament, and joked about who interviews who for the temple recommend interview. Does Monson go to his Ward Bishop like the rest of us have to? Everyone chuckled, and the answer was that Monson signs his own recommend. Everybody chuckled and they talked about something else.

If the church wasted the paper and required Monson or any of the other paid leaders to hand over a recommend at the door instead of just letting then in the back door, I'd be shocked. (Monson didn't even use his own front door to his own house, the armed drivers pulled his million dollar Audi with the bulletproof glass up to the back secret gate next to my old house. 😉🤫)
There was a couple of week period during which I was the bishop and also a member of the stake presidency. So I took the opportunity to sign my own recommend ... in all three signature slots. LOL.
Wait a minute… you don’t get interviewed while serving in the stake presidency?
We get interviewed by a member of the bishopric. We can approve our own recommends at the stake level (at least that's what I've been doing and what my last stake president was doing).
It's nice that church leadership polices itself above the member level. What could go wrong?

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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

Post by BigT »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 4:48 pm When I was in president Monson's Ward the leadership got up one of the days Monson was there in Sacrament, and joked about who interviews who for the temple recommend interview. Does Monson go to his Ward Bishop like the rest of us have to? Everyone chuckled, and the answer was that Monson signs his own recommend. Everybody chuckled and they talked about something else.

If the church wasted the paper and required Monson or any of the other paid leaders to hand over a recommend at the door instead of just letting then in the back door, I'd be shocked. (Monson didn't even use his own front door to his own house, the armed drivers pulled his million dollar Audi with the bulletproof glass up to the back secret gate next to my old house. 😉🤫)
My middle boy lived down the street from that building in Holladay but went to the other ward. He said their church times never changed because Monson liked early church. Must of been close to your old house.

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BigT
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Re: How is it possible for the Q15 to receive a Temple Recommend?

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LDS Physician wrote: February 4th, 2023, 10:20 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:20 am
LDS Physician wrote: February 4th, 2023, 9:17 am
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 4:48 pm When I was in president Monson's Ward the leadership got up one of the days Monson was there in Sacrament, and joked about who interviews who for the temple recommend interview. Does Monson go to his Ward Bishop like the rest of us have to? Everyone chuckled, and the answer was that Monson signs his own recommend. Everybody chuckled and they talked about something else.

If the church wasted the paper and required Monson or any of the other paid leaders to hand over a recommend at the door instead of just letting then in the back door, I'd be shocked. (Monson didn't even use his own front door to his own house, the armed drivers pulled his million dollar Audi with the bulletproof glass up to the back secret gate next to my old house. 😉🤫)
There was a couple of week period during which I was the bishop and also a member of the stake presidency. So I took the opportunity to sign my own recommend ... in all three signature slots. LOL.
Wait a minute… you don’t get interviewed while serving in the stake presidency?
We get interviewed by a member of the bishopric. We can approve our own recommends at the stake level (at least that's what I've been doing and what my last stake president was doing).
Kind of like you get to write your own scripts? 8-)
We had a stake president, an oral surgeon, get released (“Honorable release!” The GA thundered) for lifting another doc’s script pad to write his scripts for Oxy for his migraines. Our bishop was the main reporter for the local rag and was begged by another stake president to not print the story. He did anyway. It’s news! The last time I talked with him was when I got dragged in during the divorce with wife #1 in which he dared speak to me rather sternly. Then he writes his own scripts on stolen pads.

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