There is a sickness in the church

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Wolfwoman
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Wolfwoman »

That is sad. You’d think that they would have something to say about how much they grew to love the people in their ward as they served them for 5 years. And how they grew close to the Savior as they prayed to know how to help people solve their problems. I know I felt that as a full time missionary. You’d think a bishopric would have the same experiences, though not full time.

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Pazooka
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

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A real shocker, for me, was being at the deathbed of a lifetime member of the church this past Christmas. They had served missions and had served in pretty important and high up callings. When this person drew me near to express gratitude, it was to the church…over and over, saying how much they owed every one of their blessings to the church. Not one mention of God.

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John Tavner
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

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TheChristian wrote: February 1st, 2023, 6:59 am
Robin Hood wrote: February 1st, 2023, 6:38 am
Momma J wrote: February 1st, 2023, 6:26 am LDS Physician ~ You are a blessed servant of the Lord. I truly appreciate the words that you share with us. I pray that I might be able reach members of my ward with my testimony. I have humbled myself and pray for guidance to steer others back to Christ.

I feel I am failing, and I fear it is due to me ignoring the promptings to go to the pulpit and preach in a "Fire and Brimstone" .... call to repentance style of teaching.

They need to be shook to the foundations of their souls. Their complacency is an abomination.... and I sit quietly and pray. My courage fails me.... and I am failing the Lord.... and I am sobbing because I am just now, while typing these words, fully understanding.

Thank you!
I feel that way too.
Every testimony meeting I determine to go to the stand and tell it like it is. But I chicken out.
I watch the same people climb the Rameumptum each month and repeat the same generic phrases almost verbatim, while I clock-watch until the whole tedious thing's over and the congregation breaths an almost audible collective sigh of relief.
Perhaps this Sunday....
My brother Robin, your church is fragile, many are seeking, yearning for comfort, they need not bluntness, go forth and speak of Jesus our Lord, of his personal love for each and every one of them, to cast their cares apon Him for He truly cares for each and every one of them, yes lift up your voice concerning your risen Lord Jesus and of His promises to those that pick up their crosses and follow Him.
Bring them the love the Lord has for them and the love you have for them also, that you may be used greatly to bless and uplift your weary brothers and sisters in Christ in these last of days..........

"He will not break a bruised reed, and he will not put out a smoldering wick;"
I agree with this and I write this as a second witness. As I have borne testimony of our Lord and Savior in truth and His might power for change in our own lives and prayed fervently for and over the ward including casting out spirits of religion, idolatry etc.. I can say the ward I am in focuses a lot on more on Christ. I won't say it is me, but I can tell you in the past 2 years since I"ve begun, the focus on Christ has grown. The people desire and need to know Christ. They need to hear more than "I know Jesus is my savior" They need to hear how, God desires us to submit, that He has not cast us off and the proof of that is His Son. That they can turn to Him and receive and no longer be burdened by their own self-righteousness. Is there still talk of prophets and apostles and General conference? Yes. IS there still too much of a focus in some meetings on temples, or the prophet and following him, yes. However, I think by and large, they are coming to know or at least teach more on Christ. I have personally seen many people I've interacted with begin to cast off their idols. As we teach a change in perspective on how to view God and Jesus of Nazareth, the people begin to understand if they desire. I've even noticed how grace is becoming a topic more common in the ward. God loves His children - they are blind and they are struggling and they are hurt, mostly because of the false traditions of man, but most of them want to know the Lord- they just don't know how. As we teach truth in love, really in love and really in truth, I believe it will happen. That does not mean I haven't made mistakes - I've sown some truth in frustration - and I've seen how now those who I did that with a few seeds of frustration and anger have come up in them- though thye have truth, but for those that I have done it in peace and love, they also have that. THe power of life and death is in our tongues (I try to remember that often for myself). So we should not lose hope, but pray to God in the name of Jesus with all our hearts to love our fellow men and seek to share truth in love and the Truth is Christ and God is love. For Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. They will and can obtain life. Let us not lose hope, for without hope there is no faith, and without faith and hope, there is no charity and if we have not charity, we are nothing. Of course to God goes all the glory, all we can do is sow or water because God brings the increase, but it is joyful to sow and water and see how the Lord brings forth fruits.

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David13
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by David13 »

I think a lot of it has to do with intellectual level.

I have found that there are a great many people in the church who are incapable of abstract thought. Who can't seem to fathom the simplest of thoughts. They simply do not use their brain. They can't or won't think. Thus they are superstitous and easily led by others. They have attached themselves to the church and that must do their thinking for them. And their tv. They watch CNN or "the news" and think that is reality or truth.

When I was young I heard them described as "the sort of man who goes thru' life never having had an original thought."

I like the one mentioned who worshiped the handbook. I encountered one along those lines, but his brain was so narrow, he couldn't even follow the handbook. It was over and above his intellectual capacity.

But none the less, the blind worship.
dc

silverado
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by silverado »

"When we stand before the bar of God on Judgement Day, we will be asked how well we followed the prophets, especially the living ones of our day."

Recent talk in Sacrament meeting.

They are so idolized, they cant admit to any mistake. They have to swim only forward.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

LDS Physician, obviously your SP doesn't know the depth of your feelings, but I'm curious where you think he's at with everything. (e.g. totally onboard, or does he have questions)

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LDS Physician
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 10:15 am LDS Physician, obviously your SP doesn't know the depth of your feelings, but I'm curious where you think he's at with everything. (e.g. totally onboard, or does he have questions)
Great question. He is honestly fantastic. I express my thoughts quite opening ... most recently about the respect for marriage act and the gay choir being invited to sing on temple grounds. I am solid in my criticism of these types of things and he will say things like "I see what you're saying and understand your concerns" and "I'm glad you feel comfortable sharing your concerns" ... and he's sincere about this.

He's even-keeled, spiritually mature, and I believe he sees what I see in all this. He was never draconian in the pandemic period and even joined me in not donning the masks whenever everyone else was (eventually).

Color me impressed. I certainly wouldn't have been kept in this position hadn't there been a man like him at the helm. I admire him in many ways. There are certainly good people in the church still.

Atrasado
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

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TheChristian wrote: February 1st, 2023, 7:27 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 7:01 am
TheChristian wrote: February 1st, 2023, 6:59 am
My brother Robin, your church is fragile, many are seeking, yearning for comfort, they need not bluntness, go forth and speak of Jesus our Lord, of his personal love for each and every one of them, to cast their cares apon Him for He truly cares for each and every one of them, yes lift up your voice concerning your risen Lord Jesus and of His promises to those that pick up their crosses and follow Him.
Bring them the love the Lord has for them and the love you have for them also, that you may be used greatly to bless and uplift your weary brothers and sisters in Christ in these last of days..........

"He will not break a bruised reed, and he will not put out a smoldering wick;"

Would you not raise a warning voice to the chickens as the fox circles the hen house?

It is interesting that almost all animal species have a warning system for danger. They couldn’t give a rip about what others thought about them. But we humans are a special breed, we care about how our friends and our idols perceive us, regardless the imminent danger that exists.

If the sheep are sick, they cannot run from the wily fox, regardless of whom raises the warning voice.
The Shepard loves His sickly sheep and those that are lost............He therefore goes out himself to tend his sick flock with much kindness mopping the sorrows from their brows and healing their sicknesses and once He has lifted up his sickly flock to health, He then leaves them to go look for the sheep that are lost.
And with tender cries He calls out for them and when He finds them He rejoices, and He takes that lost and lonely sheep apon His shoulders back to the flock.

I am just thankfull that the Lord came looking for me, and when He found me, there was no harsh words or anger, there was mercy and joy and a nail pierced hand stretched out to help me back on my feet again......
And my Lord and I both rejoiced together..........
I hear what you're saying, but sometimes we have to pierce the veil of complacency before it's too late. I just don't know if we can, yet.

I'm not sure if you are LDS, but our biggest problem is that we trust our own righteousness, both those who leave the Church and those who stay in it. Our pride is in "living the gospel," meaning we fast once a month, we attend church, pay tithing on our net or gross income, don't drink or smoke, and we go on missions for two years.

But we don't see our weaknesses therefore we aren't made strong. We don't trust that God will make known to us what Nephi saw but like Laman and Lemuel think that revelation is for other people for the Lord makes no such thing known unto us. We don't see his face in our countenances and we don't see God in our fellow brothers and sisters so we don't develop the charity we MUST have. We worry too much about our stuff and what's cool to see our impending doom.

I mourn for Zion and my grief nearly disables me and causes me to sin for I should have more faith in Jesus Christ. Telling others this stuff, however, is like talking to someone with delusional episodes. They might hear you, but most simply can't understand. It is too far outside of their window of comprehension. That is why the Lord will start the tribulations upon His own house, so that it can destroy our illusions. The famine and earthquake and the illnesses and war that will soon come, although horrible, will be medicine of love to some very sick patients, myself included.
Last edited by Atrasado on February 1st, 2023, 10:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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hedgehog
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

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LDS Physician wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:53 am I think that sickness is idolatry.

As many of you know, I'm a physician and in a stake presidency. Was recently involved in the release of a bishopric after 5 years of service and the calling of a new bishopric. We spent about an hour with the old bishopric and asked them what they each considered the most valuable lesson of their service.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, but I have spent over 25 years observing people, looking for signs and symptoms of underlying illness and trauma. Their answers made it clear to me that there is illness in the church.

One counselor spent 10 minutes literally praising the general handbook. His answer to "what have you learned serving in the bishopric for 5 years" was "the handbook is an inspired document." I had to stifle a laugh when he mentioned in his praise of this handbook that "it is an inspired book mingled with scripture."

The bishop himself surprised me with his answer, which was essentially "how wonderful the prophet Russell M Nelson is" ... and to explain just how wonderful and inspired he is as a leader, the bishop listed many of his accomplishments: The Come Follow Me manual, the upgrades to the SLC Temple, moving bishops from focusing on everyone to only focusing on youth, and most recently (glory be to this magnanimous change): having opening prayers at the beginning of the second hour of church again.

Do I need to state the obvious here? There was no mention of the Savior and of his love for each individual or ... the atonement and how it rescues everyone or ... gratitude to Jesus Christ for his inspiration and guidance.

The sickness is idolatry. Idolatry of the corporation, its leaders, and its pseudo-scripture.

I don't even know what to do. I literally feel like I'm on the deck of a ship that is spinning in circles in a storm with its sails torn and everyone else on board thinks that everything is just hunky dorey, that we're headed in the right direction, and that the monstrously black and roiling storm in the distance isn't a thing to worry about.
He sees this as an organization of men and was interviewing with you hoping for a promotion. Sadly, he is not totally wrong.

My friend, who is grandson of one of 15 that is widely reviled here, warned me years ago about the herd of current church aristocrats wanting to purge our history and peculiar-ness and join worlds mainstream. Man was he right.

Jacobugath indeed. I suspect a conflict is brewing and another leader or three down the road will push back, and one side will leave the existing SLC organization.

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Obrien
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Obrien »

LDS Physician wrote: February 1st, 2023, 5:44 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 5:32 am It’s not too difficult to understand why. I mean, yes, it’s incredibly sad, but when the upper hierarchy have literally made lesser gods of themselves, how do you expect the members to respond? I’m paraphrasing these two quotes, but this is what they are saying:

“I can do no wrong, God won’t allow it.”

“I speak the very words of God.”

When members quote a church leader it is just as good as quoting the Lord, they are synonymous in their mind.

The handbook comment, as funny as it sounds to many of us, is sooo true. It is the gospel.
Exactly. I feel completely impotent to do anything about it ... and I have a microphone / pulpit! Every talk I give has as its baseline message: turn to Christ. I give no mention of "the covenant path", "follow the prophet", or "attend the temple". I don't see any of those mantras in the scriptures.
Amen LDS Doc - good message. The sad truth I can tell you, as a pew dweller my whole life, is that YOU talk about "turning to Christ" and the average TBM hears "follow the Prophet" because "he knows the way" to Christ. It is easy for me to say this, since I do not speak multiple times per year in a stake, but the message needs to be more of personal and institutional REPENTANCE, then turning to Christ. The REPENTANCE message is scripturally based and includes some chastisement for the idolatry and hero worship, then a message of forgiveness thru Christ. We never get the REPENT message, at least in my stake and ward...

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Niemand
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Niemand »

Talking about the snob thing. Most of our local membership is either working class (blue collar) or lower middle class. It's not the most socially prestigious church in my neck of the woods. Church of Scotland (Presbyterian), Episcopal Church and even Roman Catholicism also have better social cachet. I've never met millionaires of local origin in the church (a few from American backgrounds) and very few who were privately educated.

I never joined the church for those reasons of course, but it does seem amazing that some members walk around with their noses in the air.

Outside the church, the rest of the population tends to regard us as a slightly weird cult with besuited missionaries who bother them at the door.

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Great8
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

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I am not a social butterfly but we moved into a ward in Utah county 2 years ago and I can count on one hand who has actually talked to me at church. The people here think the Church and the Gospel are the same. Multiple times I have heard the members say that when members leave the church that they are no longer following the gospel. It irritates me but most things at church do now.
I go to put on a front for my kids. But I despise seeing this micro social climate in the ward/church. The cool kids conform.

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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by iWriteStuff »

I am grateful for this thread and for LDS Physician for creating it.

I would only add that the reason any given member, or even any leader, is powerless to stop leader worship is because it is driven at the top, from the top, and for the top. Organizational culture is always driven from the top. It won't change until the leadership does, and so far they have no reason to stop.

Look at all the blasphemous rhetoric coming out about "the church = the Savior". This messaging is intentional and encouraged by the Q15. If "Mormon" is a victory for Satan, this new rhetoric is a victory lap followed by a parade and wrapped in a fireworks display.

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TheDuke
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

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LDS Physician wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:53 am I think that sickness is idolatry.

As many of you know, I'm a physician and in a stake presidency. Was recently involved in the release of a bishopric after 5 years of service and the calling of a new bishopric. We spent about an hour with the old bishopric and asked them what they each considered the most valuable lesson of their service.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, but I have spent over 25 years observing people, looking for signs and symptoms of underlying illness and trauma. Their answers made it clear to me that there is illness in the church.

One counselor spent 10 minutes literally praising the general handbook. His answer to "what have you learned serving in the bishopric for 5 years" was "the handbook is an inspired document." I had to stifle a laugh when he mentioned in his praise of this handbook that "it is an inspired book mingled with scripture."

The bishop himself surprised me with his answer, which was essentially "how wonderful the prophet Russell M Nelson is" ... and to explain just how wonderful and inspired he is as a leader, the bishop listed many of his accomplishments: The Come Follow Me manual, the upgrades to the SLC Temple, moving bishops from focusing on everyone to only focusing on youth, and most recently (glory be to this magnanimous change): having opening prayers at the beginning of the second hour of church again.

Do I need to state the obvious here? There was no mention of the Savior and of his love for each individual or ... the atonement and how it rescues everyone or ... gratitude to Jesus Christ for his inspiration and guidance.

The sickness is idolatry. Idolatry of the corporation, its leaders, and its pseudo-scripture.

I don't even know what to do. I literally feel like I'm on the deck of a ship that is spinning in circles in a storm with its sails torn and everyone else on board thinks that everything is just hunky dorey, that we're headed in the right direction, and that the monstrously black and roiling storm in the distance isn't a thing to worry about.
I love your OP! I do not see it as idolatry however. Perverse maybe, but I take care and call idolatry as defined in the scriptures (not GA's GC talks) as literally worshiping an object, and that would include not only reverence to it but praying to it. Not sure anyone prays to the handbook or RMN.

Valo
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Valo »

TheDuke wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:29 am
LDS Physician wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:53 am I think that sickness is idolatry.

As many of you know, I'm a physician and in a stake presidency. Was recently involved in the release of a bishopric after 5 years of service and the calling of a new bishopric. We spent about an hour with the old bishopric and asked them what they each considered the most valuable lesson of their service.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, but I have spent over 25 years observing people, looking for signs and symptoms of underlying illness and trauma. Their answers made it clear to me that there is illness in the church.

One counselor spent 10 minutes literally praising the general handbook. His answer to "what have you learned serving in the bishopric for 5 years" was "the handbook is an inspired document." I had to stifle a laugh when he mentioned in his praise of this handbook that "it is an inspired book mingled with scripture."

The bishop himself surprised me with his answer, which was essentially "how wonderful the prophet Russell M Nelson is" ... and to explain just how wonderful and inspired he is as a leader, the bishop listed many of his accomplishments: The Come Follow Me manual, the upgrades to the SLC Temple, moving bishops from focusing on everyone to only focusing on youth, and most recently (glory be to this magnanimous change): having opening prayers at the beginning of the second hour of church again.

Do I need to state the obvious here? There was no mention of the Savior and of his love for each individual or ... the atonement and how it rescues everyone or ... gratitude to Jesus Christ for his inspiration and guidance.

The sickness is idolatry. Idolatry of the corporation, its leaders, and its pseudo-scripture.

I don't even know what to do. I literally feel like I'm on the deck of a ship that is spinning in circles in a storm with its sails torn and everyone else on board thinks that everything is just hunky dorey, that we're headed in the right direction, and that the monstrously black and roiling storm in the distance isn't a thing to worry about.
I love your OP! I do not see it as idolatry however. Perverse maybe, but I take care and call idolatry as defined in the scriptures (not GA's GC talks) as literally worshiping an object, and that would include not only reverence to it but praying to it. Not sure anyone prays to the handbook or RMN.
The scriptures doesn't teach that only worshipping an object is idolatry.

You interested in being educated?

...

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:29 am I love your OP! I do not see it as idolatry however. Perverse maybe, but I take care and call idolatry as defined in the scriptures (not GA's GC talks) as literally worshiping an object, and that would include not only reverence to it but praying to it. Not sure anyone prays to the handbook or RMN.
Duke, we sing songs about them, we pray about them, we adore them from the pulpit, and we enforce all of that through "keys and authority." Idol worship can take any form. They just happen to be an animate object.

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TheDuke
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

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Valo wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:34 am
TheDuke wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:29 am
LDS Physician wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:53 am I think that sickness is idolatry.

As many of you know, I'm a physician and in a stake presidency. Was recently involved in the release of a bishopric after 5 years of service and the calling of a new bishopric. We spent about an hour with the old bishopric and asked them what they each considered the most valuable lesson of their service.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, but I have spent over 25 years observing people, looking for signs and symptoms of underlying illness and trauma. Their answers made it clear to me that there is illness in the church.

One counselor spent 10 minutes literally praising the general handbook. His answer to "what have you learned serving in the bishopric for 5 years" was "the handbook is an inspired document." I had to stifle a laugh when he mentioned in his praise of this handbook that "it is an inspired book mingled with scripture."

The bishop himself surprised me with his answer, which was essentially "how wonderful the prophet Russell M Nelson is" ... and to explain just how wonderful and inspired he is as a leader, the bishop listed many of his accomplishments: The Come Follow Me manual, the upgrades to the SLC Temple, moving bishops from focusing on everyone to only focusing on youth, and most recently (glory be to this magnanimous change): having opening prayers at the beginning of the second hour of church again.

Do I need to state the obvious here? There was no mention of the Savior and of his love for each individual or ... the atonement and how it rescues everyone or ... gratitude to Jesus Christ for his inspiration and guidance.

The sickness is idolatry. Idolatry of the corporation, its leaders, and its pseudo-scripture.

I don't even know what to do. I literally feel like I'm on the deck of a ship that is spinning in circles in a storm with its sails torn and everyone else on board thinks that everything is just hunky dorey, that we're headed in the right direction, and that the monstrously black and roiling storm in the distance isn't a thing to worry about.
I love your OP! I do not see it as idolatry however. Perverse maybe, but I take care and call idolatry as defined in the scriptures (not GA's GC talks) as literally worshiping an object, and that would include not only reverence to it but praying to it. Not sure anyone prays to the handbook or RMN.
The scriptures doesn't teach that only worshipping an object is idolatry.

You interested in being educated?

...
sure show me.

I mean make it scriptures that say "idolatry", it is used 16 times in the OT and 5 times in the NT - 4 of 5 in NT simply use the term - perhaps collosians? Not sure any OT uses can be used to make a definition or description. Likely stuck with 2000 year old websters dictionary there.

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TheDuke
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:35 am
Duke, we sing songs about them, we pray about them, we adore them from the pulpit, and we enforce all of that through "keys and authority." Idol worship can take any form. They just happen to be an animate object.
I do all that for BYU Cougars, and the US National Anthem. I pray about my health, my family, my country, my vocation. I adore my wife. That is not idolatry. Again, feel free to add to the scriptures asnd what the scriptures teach, just all good GA's extrapolate.

Moses talked of idolatry and it was and still is worshipping dumb idols, made of mans hands. Worshipping as in praying to, sacrificing to, etc... When court was held it wasn't asked, do you love your donkey or your land, it was if you bowed down to another god.....

We need to draw a line between literal and figurative. Your put about the leaders is just wrong and BTW uncalled for in this OP or response to my simple issue of definition. I agreed fully with what the OP said in principle. I just make a claim that it isn't idolatry at least in the biblical sense, where idols were an issue. If you want to re-define the term (like mRNA is a vaccine) go for it. but DONOT use the existing scriptures as a whip to make your point, use Bednar's talk or something when the possibility of your new definition exists.

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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:52 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:35 am
Duke, we sing songs about them, we pray about them, we adore them from the pulpit, and we enforce all of that through "keys and authority." Idol worship can take any form. They just happen to be an animate object.
I do all that for BYU Cougars, and the US National Anthem. I pray about my health, my family, my country, my vocation. I adore my wife. That is not idolatry. Again, feel free to add to the scriptures asnd what the scriptures teach, just all good GA's extrapolate.

Moses talked of idolatry and it was and still is worshipping dumb idols, made of mans hands. Worshipping as in praying to, sacrificing to, etc... When court was held it wasn't asked, do you love your donkey or your land, it was if you bowed down to another god.....

We need to draw a line between literal and figurative. Your put about the leaders is just wrong and BTW uncalled for in this OP or response to my simple issue of definition. I agreed fully with what the OP said in principle. I just make a claim that it isn't idolatry at least in the biblical sense, where idols were an issue. If you want to re-define the term (like mRNA is a vaccine) go for it. but DONOT use the existing scriptures as a whip to make your point, use Bednar's talk or something when the possibility of your new definition exists.
When we support them in their own vain ambitions and false doctrine, some of which include assigning attributes of deity to them ("cannot lead astray" "trust us completely") they have made themselves false gods. They have become idols.

BTW, these men are asking us to sacrifice our children to Moloch through a C-19 jabby-jab. You may disagree, but they are. It was on full display in the church magazine for children.

And my opinion is not wrong, you just don't agree with it. I could use the same dogmatic gesture to condemn your way of thinking.

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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by HeberC »

Niemand wrote: February 1st, 2023, 6:43 am
Robin Hood wrote: February 1st, 2023, 6:38 am I feel that way too.
Every testimony meeting I determine to go to the stand and tell it like it is. But I chicken out.
I watch the same people climb the Rameumptum each month and repeat the same generic phrases almost verbatim, while I clock-watch until the whole tedious thing's over and the congregation breaths an almost audible collective sigh of relief.
Perhaps this Sunday....
Best to do it in a ward/stake where nobody knows you.
I did that. I bore my testimony of Christ and his interaction with me in another ward. The bishop is an old and dear friend of mine. The next fast Sunday, he walked to the back of the chapel, where I was sitting, and asked me not to bear my testimony.

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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

HeberC wrote: February 1st, 2023, 12:06 pm I bore my testimony of Christ and his interaction with me in another ward. The bishop is an old and dear friend of mine. The next fast Sunday, he walked to the back of the chapel, where I was sitting, and asked me not to bear my testimony.
Was it solely focused on Christ or did your testimony venture into the realms of false traditions and beliefs w/in the church?

HeberC
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by HeberC »

It was solely on Christ.

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Subcomandante
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Subcomandante »

LDS Physician wrote: February 1st, 2023, 10:28 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 10:15 am LDS Physician, obviously your SP doesn't know the depth of your feelings, but I'm curious where you think he's at with everything. (e.g. totally onboard, or does he have questions)
Great question. He is honestly fantastic. I express my thoughts quite opening ... most recently about the respect for marriage act and the gay choir being invited to sing on temple grounds. I am solid in my criticism of these types of things and he will say things like "I see what you're saying and understand your concerns" and "I'm glad you feel comfortable sharing your concerns" ... and he's sincere about this.

He's even-keeled, spiritually mature, and I believe he sees what I see in all this. He was never draconian in the pandemic period and even joined me in not donning the masks whenever everyone else was (eventually).

Color me impressed. I certainly wouldn't have been kept in this position hadn't there been a man like him at the helm. I admire him in many ways. There are certainly good people in the church still.

Sounds like your ward has some pretty amazing leadership, despite the fact that there are some of them that seem to miss the mark.

Everything we have today is thanks to God and Jesus. Start putting others in front of them, and you start to have problems.

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Obrien
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Obrien »

TheDuke wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:29 am
LDS Physician wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:53 am I think that sickness is idolatry.

As many of you know, I'm a physician and in a stake presidency. Was recently involved in the release of a bishopric after 5 years of service and the calling of a new bishopric. We spent about an hour with the old bishopric and asked them what they each considered the most valuable lesson of their service.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, but I have spent over 25 years observing people, looking for signs and symptoms of underlying illness and trauma. Their answers made it clear to me that there is illness in the church.

One counselor spent 10 minutes literally praising the general handbook. His answer to "what have you learned serving in the bishopric for 5 years" was "the handbook is an inspired document." I had to stifle a laugh when he mentioned in his praise of this handbook that "it is an inspired book mingled with scripture."

The bishop himself surprised me with his answer, which was essentially "how wonderful the prophet Russell M Nelson is" ... and to explain just how wonderful and inspired he is as a leader, the bishop listed many of his accomplishments: The Come Follow Me manual, the upgrades to the SLC Temple, moving bishops from focusing on everyone to only focusing on youth, and most recently (glory be to this magnanimous change): having opening prayers at the beginning of the second hour of church again.

Do I need to state the obvious here? There was no mention of the Savior and of his love for each individual or ... the atonement and how it rescues everyone or ... gratitude to Jesus Christ for his inspiration and guidance.

The sickness is idolatry. Idolatry of the corporation, its leaders, and its pseudo-scripture.

I don't even know what to do. I literally feel like I'm on the deck of a ship that is spinning in circles in a storm with its sails torn and everyone else on board thinks that everything is just hunky dorey, that we're headed in the right direction, and that the monstrously black and roiling storm in the distance isn't a thing to worry about.
I love your OP! I do not see it as idolatry however. Perverse maybe, but I take care and call idolatry as defined in the scriptures (not GA's GC talks) as literally worshiping an object, and that would include not only reverence to it but praying to it. Not sure anyone prays to the handbook or RMN.
Not to pile on unnecessarily Duke, but Oxford Dictionary says idolatry is :" extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone." Listen to people bear their "testimony" of our beloved and dear prophet, even Russell Marion Nelson. Their words, and more importantly their tone, always conveys the admiration, love and reverence the testimony bearer has for RMN.

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Niemand
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Niemand »

In my case, all units in Scotland and Ireland are out (same mission) and a few in England toox because there is a chance someone would know me. I'd have to turn up late so I didn't get the customary interrogation beforehand.

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