There is a sickness in the church

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

JandD6572 wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 6:43 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 4:28 am
JandD6572 wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 2:52 am I have read the book of Mormon several times, and my conclusion there isn't much more in there that isn't offered in the bible.
Interesting. I have friends who hold tightly to the Bible. It is a beautiful book. I have found the clarity that is added through the BoM is quite astounding. I could add a very extensive laundry list of doctrines that are included, but I doubt that would move the needle for you. One really good book written by an LDS author is Tad R. Callister’s “A Case for the Book of Mormon.”

https://www.amazon.com/Case-Book-Mormon ... 153&sr=8-1

He presents in a very succinct format the truths that the BoM either clarifies or adds to the Bible. There are some very profound differences unique to the BoM. But, even with all that Elder Callister details, he still doesn’t recognize how the LDS church doesn’t live many of the principles and doctrines taught in the BoM. For example, 2 Ne. 28:31 is crystal clear in how we recognize truth, and how we are to trust no man but under certain circumstances. There are well over a dozen or more concepts in this book.
I'm not saying I totally disagree with the BOM, but for now, with everything that is happening, both in the world, the church and my personal life, I will be taking a break from the BoM as well. I struggle personally continuing using things like the BoM when the its the corner stone of a religion that doesn't even follow its own teachings. I mean I will be honest, when I was having my thoughts about leaving the church initially, the BoM was the only thing that kept me staying as long as I did. It seemed to be the one thing that I could rely on. But, I have a hard time with it when seemingly everything else around it with in the corporate circle was either falling apart, changing its teachings everything we turn around, or just out right claiming that one "MUST" follow the prophet, sustain, and all but worship him if one wants to fully accept Jesus Christ. I just can't anymore. The direction I am going at this time, is a direction I have felt compelled to go for many years. I thank you for your kind words with sharing with me your thoughts and other options.
I feel that we have a very mutual agreement with how the church disregards scripture. I’ve had to carve out any and all truth from any and all organized religion. I wish you well in the path you feel the Lord is directing you in. God bless!!

HVDC
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by HVDC »

Lineman1012 wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 2:36 am
David13 wrote: February 1st, 2023, 10:34 pm They worship men. They idolize the corporate executives in Salt Lake.

When I hadn't attended for a month or two, my neighbor came and asked "Dave, do you believe in the Prophet?" Or did he mean profit?

I told him I believe in God the Father.

I come from a tradition outside the church.

In no other religion have I ever seen such man worship. Such Idolatry. The Catholic priest, along with many another Christian sect are just regular men. Only one other place have I seen the same, or actually not as great adoration. Jim Jones.

They did not hold the same level of reverence that the Mormons do for their "cult leader?"
dc
I remember Jim Jones. All of his followers did as they were told and drank the koolaid and die. When RMN said get jabbed, most of his followers did and some die, some got injured and some will yet die. Prettiest much the same thing.
Actually.

I have read that.

There were those who protested.

Especially in regards to the children.

They were forced to drink or were shot.

The message here is that the kool-aid drinkers will wish all to receive it.

We are surrounded by such folks.

Sir H

HVDC
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by HVDC »

iWriteStuff wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 5:51 am
LDS Physician wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 5:38 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 4:47 am
Niemand wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 4:37 am

You need to look at some of these guru groups. It's worse. Scientology as well.

I have met some Roman Catholics who idolise the pope while others ignore him.
I think we are almost worse. The only difference is the LDS church hasn’t asked members to do some of the crazy things these other orgs have. That was until the pandemic. Mixing truth with lies is a powerful concoction. Like my family member said, “I would jump off a cliff if RMN asked me to.” :shock:
I do recall a survey conducted on the streets of SLC and about 40% of those who were asked if they would kill themselves if asked to do so by the prophet said "YES"
To be fair, anyone who answers that way is probably spiritually dead already.

Remember a few years back when we changed to 2 hour church? And we were instructed not to pray to start the second hour class? Nobody seemed to blink an eye at that. And yet the scriptures teach us that a wicked spirit tells a man not to pray. Now we're back to praying before 2nd hour again and it's like "oh yay thanks for the revelation, President Nelson!"

If you are constantly waiting to be told by the brethren how to have a relationship with Christ, how and when to pray, what to read and what to think, you are in effect already damning yourself. And that is the fruit of the brethren and the culture they created.
The one ring that binds them.

Narcissism.

This is what happens when you allow megalomaniacs to rule without checks and balances.

Our Aristocrats believe they are preordained to rule over us.

To question them.

Is to question God.

Narcissist groupthink.

Zealotry coupled with Fanaticism enabled by Sycophantism equals Predeterminism.

In other words.

They can not be wrong.

Get far, far away from such people.

Wherever they may be.

Sir H
Last edited by HVDC on February 3rd, 2023, 4:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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David13
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by David13 »

Niemand wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 4:37 am
David13 wrote: February 1st, 2023, 10:34 pm In no other religion have I ever seen such man worship. Such Idolatry. The Catholic priest, along with many another Christian sect are just regular men. Only one other place have I seen the same, or actually not as great adoration. Jim Jones.

They did not hold the same level of reverence that the Mormons do for their "cult leader?"
dc
You need to look at some of these guru groups. It's worse. Scientology as well.

I have met some Roman Catholics who idolise the pope while others ignore him.

Those are two which I have had experience with. Yes, many of the Mormons are just like that.
dc

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Niemand
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Niemand »

David13 wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 9:12 am
Niemand wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 4:37 am
David13 wrote: February 1st, 2023, 10:34 pm In no other religion have I ever seen such man worship. Such Idolatry. The Catholic priest, along with many another Christian sect are just regular men. Only one other place have I seen the same, or actually not as great adoration. Jim Jones.

They did not hold the same level of reverence that the Mormons do for their "cult leader?"
dc
You need to look at some of these guru groups. It's worse. Scientology as well.

I have met some Roman Catholics who idolise the pope while others ignore him.

Those are two which I have had experience with. Yes, many of the Mormons are just like that.
dc
I'm friendly with a Nepalese family and the parents are into Sai Baba. He died a few years ago, and he was really dubious, but it is like the Nelson cult with bells on.

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HereWeGo
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by HereWeGo »

JandD6572 wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 6:43 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 4:28 am
JandD6572 wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 2:52 am I have read the book of Mormon several times, and my conclusion there isn't much more in there that isn't offered in the bible.
Interesting. I have friends who hold tightly to the Bible. It is a beautiful book. I have found the clarity that is added through the BoM is quite astounding. I could add a very extensive laundry list of doctrines that are included, but I doubt that would move the needle for you. One really good book written by an LDS author is Tad R. Callister’s “A Case for the Book of Mormon.”

https://www.amazon.com/Case-Book-Mormon ... 153&sr=8-1

He presents in a very succinct format the truths that the BoM either clarifies or adds to the Bible. There are some very profound differences unique to the BoM. But, even with all that Elder Callister details, he still doesn’t recognize how the LDS church doesn’t live many of the principles and doctrines taught in the BoM. For example, 2 Ne. 28:31 is crystal clear in how we recognize truth, and how we are to trust no man but under certain circumstances. There are well over a dozen or more concepts in this book.
I'm not saying I totally disagree with the BOM, but for now, with everything that is happening, both in the world, the church and my personal life, I will be taking a break from the BoM as well. I struggle personally continuing using things like the BoM when the its the corner stone of a religion that doesn't even follow its own teachings. I mean I will be honest, when I was having my thoughts about leaving the church initially, the BoM was the only thing that kept me staying as long as I did. It seemed to be the one thing that I could rely on. But, I have a hard time with it when seemingly everything else around it with in the corporate circle was either falling apart, changing its teachings everything we turn around, or just out right claiming that one "MUST" follow the prophet, sustain, and all but worship him if one wants to fully accept Jesus Christ. I just can't anymore. The direction I am going at this time, is a direction I have felt compelled to go for many years. I thank you for your kind words with sharing with me your thoughts and other options.
Please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Reject the false doctrine and false direction the LDS leaders have been taking us. Reject the Corporation. Hold fast to Christ, Joseph Smith, Joseph's 3 new scriptures and his retranslated bible, etc. These latter things are still true.

At the same time, Christ will direct your path. Make sure it is Him who is directing you and then follow that direction. We each have a different path.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

HereWeGo wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 10:44 am Hold fast to Christ, Joseph Smith, Joseph's 3 new scriptures and his retranslated bible, etc. These latter things are still true.
And I'd take parts of D&C with a grain of salt. Ok, maybe a teaspoon of salt. :)

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HereWeGo
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

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Keep the part of the D&C that Joseph actually produced and drop the parts that were added or modified after his death. :D

1775peasant
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by 1775peasant »

hedgehog wrote: February 1st, 2023, 10:34 am
LDS Physician wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:53 am I think that sickness is idolatry.

As many of you know, I'm a physician and in a stake presidency. Was recently involved in the release of a bishopric after 5 years of service and the calling of a new bishopric. We spent about an hour with the old bishopric and asked them what they each considered the most valuable lesson of their service.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, but I have spent over 25 years observing people, looking for signs and symptoms of underlying illness and trauma. Their answers made it clear to me that there is illness in the church.

One counselor spent 10 minutes literally praising the general handbook. His answer to "what have you learned serving in the bishopric for 5 years" was "the handbook is an inspired document." I had to stifle a laugh when he mentioned in his praise of this handbook that "it is an inspired book mingled with scripture."

The bishop himself surprised me with his answer, which was essentially "how wonderful the prophet Russell M Nelson is" ... and to explain just how wonderful and inspired he is as a leader, the bishop listed many of his accomplishments: The Come Follow Me manual, the upgrades to the SLC Temple, moving bishops from focusing on everyone to only focusing on youth, and most recently (glory be to this magnanimous change): having opening prayers at the beginning of the second hour of church again.

Do I need to state the obvious here? There was no mention of the Savior and of his love for each individual or ... the atonement and how it rescues everyone or ... gratitude to Jesus Christ for his inspiration and guidance.

The sickness is idolatry. Idolatry of the corporation, its leaders, and its pseudo-scripture.

I don't even know what to do. I literally feel like I'm on the deck of a ship that is spinning in circles in a storm with its sails torn and everyone else on board thinks that everything is just hunky dorey, that we're headed in the right direction, and that the monstrously black and roiling storm in the distance isn't a thing to worry about.
He sees this as an organization of men and was interviewing with you hoping for a promotion. Sadly, he is not totally wrong.

My friend, who is grandson of one of 15 that is widely reviled here, warned me years ago about the herd of current church aristocrats wanting to purge our history and peculiar-ness and join worlds mainstream. Man was he right.

Jacobugath indeed. I suspect a conflict is brewing and another leader or three down the road will push back, and one side will leave the existing SLC organization.



if what is rumored to be taking place with the complete gutting of the SL Temple & the other Pioneer Temple's......the removing of all the Pioneer murals ...or anything that would remind one of past Mormon history???

I don't see how those of the 15 with Ancestors that lived through those times, and sacrificed for the building up of the Kingdom?.......I just don't see how they wouldn't take offense to such historical destruction!!?!!

if those rumors are true, I just can't see it not adversely effecting one with Pioneer heritage?


and the Good Global Socialist mantra that RMN has constantly pushed, right on cue with the UN & WEF???

I just can't believe that several of the older of the 15 don't take a cock-eyed view of that?

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JandD6572
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by JandD6572 »

HereWeGo wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 10:44 am
JandD6572 wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 6:43 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 4:28 am
JandD6572 wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 2:52 am I have read the book of Mormon several times, and my conclusion there isn't much more in there that isn't offered in the bible.
Interesting. I have friends who hold tightly to the Bible. It is a beautiful book. I have found the clarity that is added through the BoM is quite astounding. I could add a very extensive laundry list of doctrines that are included, but I doubt that would move the needle for you. One really good book written by an LDS author is Tad R. Callister’s “A Case for the Book of Mormon.”

https://www.amazon.com/Case-Book-Mormon ... 153&sr=8-1

He presents in a very succinct format the truths that the BoM either clarifies or adds to the Bible. There are some very profound differences unique to the BoM. But, even with all that Elder Callister details, he still doesn’t recognize how the LDS church doesn’t live many of the principles and doctrines taught in the BoM. For example, 2 Ne. 28:31 is crystal clear in how we recognize truth, and how we are to trust no man but under certain circumstances. There are well over a dozen or more concepts in this book.
I'm not saying I totally disagree with the BOM, but for now, with everything that is happening, both in the world, the church and my personal life, I will be taking a break from the BoM as well. I struggle personally continuing using things like the BoM when the its the corner stone of a religion that doesn't even follow its own teachings. I mean I will be honest, when I was having my thoughts about leaving the church initially, the BoM was the only thing that kept me staying as long as I did. It seemed to be the one thing that I could rely on. But, I have a hard time with it when seemingly everything else around it with in the corporate circle was either falling apart, changing its teachings everything we turn around, or just out right claiming that one "MUST" follow the prophet, sustain, and all but worship him if one wants to fully accept Jesus Christ. I just can't anymore. The direction I am going at this time, is a direction I have felt compelled to go for many years. I thank you for your kind words with sharing with me your thoughts and other options.
Please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Reject the false doctrine and false direction the LDS leaders have been taking us. Reject the Corporation. Hold fast to Christ, Joseph Smith, Joseph's 3 new scriptures and his retranslated bible, etc. These latter things are still true.

At the same time, Christ will direct your path. Make sure it is Him who is directing you and then follow that direction. We each have a different path.
The Book of Mormon isn't going anywhere, as I said, that was the only thing that kept me in the church as long as it had. D&C? I take a lot of issues with that. There are teachings I just don't believe. Such as if I drink coffee, I am not worthy to see God, if I can't afford to pay tithing, I'm not worthy to see God. But there are a lot of other things I never agreed with as well. like the garments. I don't believe they are what the church says they are. nor any of the polices or doctrine, that God Seemingly change his mind over. such as the word of wisdom. given to us by choice. but later, oops, I changed my mind, I meant it was to be a commandment. Lots of things such as those. I know it may seem petty, but to me, it's been a serious issue for many years. again, thank you for you kindness, thoughts and opinions.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

1775peasant wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 12:19 pm
I just can't believe that several of the older of the 15 don't take a cock-eyed view of that?


You don't even get close to that position without first being completely and utterly church-broke. They may have raised a concern about it in their "round table" meetings, but if you're at odds with the president... I imagine that you acquiesce very quickly.

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BigT
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by BigT »

Obrien wrote: February 1st, 2023, 10:39 am The sad truth I can tell you, as a pew dweller my whole life, is that YOU talk about "turning to Christ" and the average TBM hears "follow the Prophet" because "he knows the way" to Christ.
That is the cognitive dissonance, the programming, the church has promoted for many years.

Say what?
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Say what? »

Huh! I thought it was the GLQTB.

moving2zion
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by moving2zion »

I emphasized to my son before his talk in sacrament meeting a few weeks back to emphasize something Christ did or said during his ministry that related to the subject assigned by the Bishop. Then I followed up with you can quote any one of the modern prophets as well, emphasized that it could be any general authority in the last 200 yrs, not just President Nelson. I was proud of him when he gave the talk and did quote Christ first.

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madvin
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by madvin »

Because of this thread, I had a dream last night about Jesus's sufferings and it clearly impressed upon me that I need to have unwavering faith in His sacrifice, but without it, I would be rejected. I wasn't left hopeless, but rather I came away with a sense of urgency to seek it out and obtain it.

I've never had anything like that happen before.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

LDS Physician wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:53 am I think that sickness is idolatry.

As many of you know, I'm a physician and in a stake presidency. Was recently involved in the release of a bishopric after 5 years of service and the calling of a new bishopric. We spent about an hour with the old bishopric and asked them what they each considered the most valuable lesson of their service.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, but I have spent over 25 years observing people, looking for signs and symptoms of underlying illness and trauma. Their answers made it clear to me that there is illness in the church.

One counselor spent 10 minutes literally praising the general handbook. His answer to "what have you learned serving in the bishopric for 5 years" was "the handbook is an inspired document." I had to stifle a laugh when he mentioned in his praise of this handbook that "it is an inspired book mingled with scripture."

The bishop himself surprised me with his answer, which was essentially "how wonderful the prophet Russell M Nelson is" ... and to explain just how wonderful and inspired he is as a leader, the bishop listed many of his accomplishments: The Come Follow Me manual, the upgrades to the SLC Temple, moving bishops from focusing on everyone to only focusing on youth, and most recently (glory be to this magnanimous change): having opening prayers at the beginning of the second hour of church again.

Do I need to state the obvious here? There was no mention of the Savior and of his love for each individual or ... the atonement and how it rescues everyone or ... gratitude to Jesus Christ for his inspiration and guidance.

The sickness is idolatry. Idolatry of the corporation, its leaders, and its pseudo-scripture.

I don't even know what to do. I literally feel like I'm on the deck of a ship that is spinning in circles in a storm with its sails torn and everyone else on board thinks that everything is just hunky dorey, that we're headed in the right direction, and that the monstrously black and roiling storm in the distance isn't a thing to worry about.
I completely agree with your prognosis, Doc. Thanks for sharing your observations and starting this thread. I have experienced many similar anecdotes.

I've also been impressed by many of the responses. I sensed lamentation where some have been accused of bitterness in the past. So many of us continue to cling to the Book of Mormon, which I find comforting. But more importantly, it has affirmed my desire to remember the Savior and His gospel and ensure His preeminence in my devotion.

I feel like I'm on the deck of that ship with you, brother; and will be until the Lord directs me overboard.

Too many of those I love are succumbing to the conditioning and throwing the gospel baby out with the institutional bath water. I personally have been constrained to stay aboard, and among another reason or two, I figure it is to be here for those that become aware of that ominous storm on the horizon and the condition of the boat. And when they're faced with a crisis of belief, maybe I can help a little.

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John Tavner
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by John Tavner »

Half of the battle in sharing testimony is actually sharing testimony. One of the biggest deceits I think Satan has placed in the church is that a testimony is sharing what you "know" or what you "believe" those things are only a part... the most important part is the how and why. I believe Jesus is the Christ... what does that even mean? You believe He is the anointed one? Ok. What does that mean? Anointed to do what? Those words are words anyone can say. When you testify of your experience in how your life changed because you decided to believe His word, however, that leads somewhere... Something like

"Hey I was fallen, addicted and struggling - I kept asking forgiveness and for brief moments felt like I was, but it would come back and I kept falling back into old habits and I never felt like I was fully worthy - even when I did everything I thought I possibly could - old thoughts, wrong thinking etc. For a while I lived my life as the perfect Pharisee obeying every Jot and tittle... little changed, something was still missing even though I cried out to Him daily. Then, I learned that Jesus meant what He said, that He gave His life for me so that I could be redeemed if I believed. I should no longer see myself as a terrible creature - I needed to recognize it, but God didn't want me to stay there - Else why would He call me to be a Son? I had to humble myself and believe His word. When I read His word, I learned that He sees me as Holy, and blameless and above reproach, not because of anything I've done, but because of what He has done, that He came so I could have eternal life and eternal life is Knowing the Father and the Son. I still struggled to believe, so I told the Lord, I was honest in my heart, "God, I'm struggling to believe, but if these words are true, you desire me to believe and receive, so I ask for faith." As I kept seeking faith and humbling myself beginning to believe on those words or desiring to, I began to see myself no longer as fallen- even when I sinned, but redeemed, because that is the faith that God has towards me... after a few weeks, I noticed the addictions I had were waning, they no longer had power over me, I was letting Jesus lay claim to me, the lies that held me no longer held the sway they used to, God truly was redeeming me and it was because I desired to believe and began to believe. As I keep my mind focused on His promises towards me and then the promises He has made towards others, it allows me to not only forgive myself faster, but others, I've begun to see the incredible amount of love God has for each of us, for each of you. You are not forsaken, you are not cast off, God sent His Son to redeem you, so let Him, rejoice in what He sees you as, rejoice in His Holy name, for it is truly amazing that He sent His Son, His perfect unblemished lamb to die so I could once again have a relationship with the Father - He has set me free. If I stumble, I no longer define myself by my mistakes, but by Jesus of Nazareth and what He did and what He has called me to be. This keeps my soul alive with hope, and faith is growing in me, and so I have developed charity to a greater degree than I ever did by "trying" I just submit and let His grace change me, and It does. Brothers and Sisters, let His word work in you as He has me, and let it change your life, He desires good for you, His word is true and HE can not lie- God is not here to be our servant, but we are here to be Sons and willingly serve. God isn't looking for us to "do" things, He is looking for us to become, to be the His reflection on the world. For the Whole world groans waiting for the Sons of God to be manifest. We are those Sons and Daughters if we believe and if we struggle to believe and come unto Him in humility - Jesus of Nazareth who knew what it was like in life, is here to help us to strengthen us and has Given us His Spirit as a promise of our inheritance, but also as a helpmeet - Holy Spirit constantly sanctifies us and allows us to maintain our cleansing by the blood for Jesus Died once for all. If you ahve the Spirit, you are Holy, so we must begin to believe that we are what God has said we are, otherwise the lies take precedence and we are defeated, Satan can't defeat God, but He can defeat us if He makes us believe that we are not who God says we are. If you have not submitted to God, I beg you to seek God and ask Him forgiveness in the name of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, the one who was anointed from the beginning to save us, to show us what we could be and who God sees us as, so that our mistakes do not damn us, but we are set free from our past and are made new Creatures in Christ. Believe in the forgiveness God will give, because HE has said He will forgive you and then accept the word that He has said, were He has called us to bear His name, to be the LIght of hte world and Expect His Spirit to come, and ask for it, for it will come for God will not give a serpent to his Son, so how much more will God give to one who ask for His Spirit? Submit and deny yourself, cast off your burdens and seek to live out the holiness HE has given us. Amen.

As we explain the how, and the what, and hte who in sincerity and truth - there is no way a man could be confused with that message and think "follow the prophet." Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. All we have to do is show them how He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life- once someone catches the vision and sees, they have to either accept it or reject it, but they can''t remain in ignorance any longer they will begin to rely more on Him than on man - most in church desire truth, they just don't know where to find it, so if we believe, let us be the Truth of Christ manifested to them.

Leland41-2
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Leland41-2 »

I think this is a wonderful and amazing discussion. It gives me a tiny bit of hope for the future.

I don't know if anyone is actually looking for a resolution to all these questions. At age 81 I have spent more than 20 years trying to figure out what is wrong with the church these days -- why it isn't growing, why it panders to all tyrannical government leaders, etc.

I think it is a nice interim solution to focus on Christ, and attempt to hide from the storm in that way, but in order to take any other specific action to solve the problem and avoid the coming storm, it is necessary to actually analyze the situation and provide a real answer.

The answer is really very simple. In 1896, Wilford Woodruff and Lorenzo Snow decided that they wanted to be able to get their living from the contributions of the members. In other words, they and 10 of the 12 apostles (there were only 10 because one, Moses Thatcher, was thrown out of the quorum for disagreeing, and they were already down one) agreed to go down the path of priestcraft, and to reinvent the idea of mandatory centralized tithing which had never been in existence before (regardless of how people twist the doctrine and covenants to try to reach that logical position) and nothing has been the same since. (Our current interpretation of D&C section 119 is a retroactive fraud invented about 1960, probably under the direction of Nathan Eldon Tanner as a way to make more money.)

Another way to put it is that in that one questionable decision, followed by many other very questionable decisions, they decided to turn the New Testament church based on charity into an Old Testament church based on mechanical rules, especially including tithing. (apparently including love of the handbook as well. :) ) Tithing was not part of the New Testament church, and the proper New Testament charity cannot exist alongside corrupt and corrupting Old Testament mandatory tithing. Finally in about 1960 they decided to exclude people from attending the temple if they had not paid a full tithing to the central offices.

It honestly seems incomprehensible that the church leaders would give up their $20 billion income just to live the gospel, but until they do that, the whole process is doomed. They are obviously rather enjoying the two-class society which previous church leaders invented and which they are now enjoying.

If anyone wants to understand the problem in painful detail I have written six books on the topic, plus some other related shorter articles. All of this material is available at my website. Books number five and six are especially relevant since they're much more current, having been written in 2020 and 2022.

https://futuremormonism.blogspot.com/

One argument might be that if you really want to follow Jesus, then take the trouble of finding out what he taught in his New Testament church, and try to get us back to that extremely successful religion which changed the world. Until we do that, the LDS church will be just a little curiosity where ambitious self-appointed priestcraft theologians tell many naïve and sincere and sacrificing pioneer-descendent Mormons what they want to hear about being saved by paying tithing (indulgences, as condemned by Martin Luther) and not doing any charity. I believe only works matter as far as getting to the celestial kingdom. If you just want to go to the terrestrial kingdom, you don't have to do anything at all, so "grace" is plenty good enough.

Last fall I actually sent my book number 6 to Elder Oaks with a cover letter, but he has not specifically answered me, although he did give the opening talk in the last Gen. conference where he praised the charity conducted by the central church. I take that as an answer to my letter, but, of course, I don't know his actual intentions. I believe it is impossible to rebut the assertion that tithing was not part of the New Testament church, but I don't believe anyone will allow that discussion to happen.

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Being There
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Being There »

Leland41-2 wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 11:57 pm I think this is a wonderful and amazing discussion. It gives me a tiny bit of hope for the future.

I don't know if anyone is actually looking for a resolution to all these questions. At age 81 I have spent more than 20 years trying to figure out what is wrong with the church these days -- why it isn't growing, why it panders to all tyrannical government leaders, etc.

I think it is a nice interim solution to focus on Christ, and attempt to hide from the storm in that way, but in order to take any other specific action to solve the problem and avoid the coming storm, it is necessary to actually analyze the situation and provide a real answer.

The answer is really very simple. In 1896, Wilford Woodruff and Lorenzo Snow decided that they wanted to be able to get their living from the contributions of the members. In other words, they and 10 of the 12 apostles (there were only 10 because one, Moses Thatcher, was thrown out of the quorum for disagreeing, and they were already down one) agreed to go down the path of priestcraft, and to reinvent the idea of mandatory centralized tithing which had never been in existence before (regardless of how people twist the doctrine and covenants to try to reach that logical position) and nothing has been the same since. (Our current interpretation of D&C section 119 is a retroactive fraud invented about 1960, probably under the direction of Nathan Eldon Tanner as a way to make more money.)

Another way to put it is that in that one questionable decision, followed by many other very questionable decisions, they decided to turn the New Testament church based on charity into an Old Testament church based on mechanical rules, especially including tithing. (apparently including love of the handbook as well. :) ) Tithing was not part of the New Testament church, and the proper New Testament charity cannot exist alongside corrupt and corrupting Old Testament mandatory tithing. Finally in about 1960 they decided to exclude people from attending the temple if they had not paid a full tithing to the central offices.

It honestly seems incomprehensible that the church leaders would give up their $20 billion income just to live the gospel, but until they do that, the whole process is doomed. They are obviously rather enjoying the two-class society which previous church leaders invented and which they are now enjoying.

If anyone wants to understand the problem in painful detail I have written six books on the topic, plus some other related shorter articles. All of this material is available at my website. Books number five and six are especially relevant since they're much more current, having been written in 2020 and 2022.

https://futuremormonism.blogspot.com/

One argument might be that if you really want to follow Jesus, then take the trouble of finding out what he taught in his New Testament church, and try to get us back to that extremely successful religion which changed the world. Until we do that, the LDS church will be just a little curiosity where ambitious self-appointed priestcraft theologians tell many naïve and sincere and sacrificing pioneer-descendent Mormons what they want to hear about being saved by paying tithing (indulgences, as condemned by Martin Luther) and not doing any charity. I believe only works matter as far as getting to the celestial kingdom. If you just want to go to the terrestrial kingdom, you don't have to do anything at all, so "grace" is plenty good enough.

Last fall I actually sent my book number 6 to Elder Oaks with a cover letter, but he has not specifically answered me, although he did give the opening talk in the last Gen. conference where he praised the charity conducted by the central church. I take that as an answer to my letter, but, of course, I don't know his actual intentions. I believe it is impossible to rebut the assertion that tithing was not part of the New Testament church, but I don't believe anyone will allow that discussion to happen.
I think all here agree, that in your 81 years
you have learned many things and have great wisdom -
thank you for sharing it with us.

CuriousThinker
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by CuriousThinker »

briznian wrote: February 1st, 2023, 7:00 am I see this idolatry as well. I often see mundane quotes from them passed around and praised on social media. The only reason I can think of why members find them remarkable is WHO said it, not what was said.

The idolatry has been there for quite some time. It does seem to have ratcheted up in recent years.

25+ years ago as a youth I attended a ground breaking for a temple to be built in my area. Many of the members of my ward were there and we all travelled together to be there. Afterwards, a sister in my ward approached me with some small stones that she had found and she wanted to give me some. The stones had gold paint on them from the shovels that had touched the hands of President Monson. I was supposed to cherish the stones. I thanked her kindly and when she walked away i tossed them back onto the ground. That is my primary memory of the event.
I haven't read through everything, but what happened to you reminds me of the old church video that was something or other about the woman who shook the hands of someone else who shook the hands of the prophet. My husband and I laugh about it because how absurd is that to think that a handshake holds some miraculous power. And we wonder why people act like the PSRs are idolized.

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Hogmeister
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Hogmeister »

BigT wrote: February 1st, 2023, 7:05 am Great thread! So much to think about.

We’ve bailed from church activity, but I’m not yet sure it’s right. Can’t stand the idea of listening to talks based on what “the arm of flesh” has said instead of what the Lord has said, but it might be possible to reach a few.

We tend to lack faith in the Lord’s ability to make something of us in this regard, don’t we? Perhaps it’s better said we might be lacking faith in ourselves to be a useful servant of His.

Do I have the Holy Spirit as my guide? Am I reacting out of anger at my world view collapsing (not a bad thing as I want to know the truth)? Lots to ponder and pray about.
I just gave a talk last sunday titled "trust not in the arm of flesh". And read the following quote from ETB from the pulpit.

"Increasingly the Latter-day Saints must choose between the reasoning of men and the revelations of God. This is a crucial choice, for we have those within the Church today who, with their worldly wisdom, are leading some of our members astray. President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned that “the ravening wolves are amongst us from our own membership and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep’s clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the Priesthood. … We should be careful of them.” (The Improvement Era, May 1949, p. 268.)"

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Hogmeister
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Hogmeister »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 10:53 am
HereWeGo wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 10:44 am Hold fast to Christ, Joseph Smith, Joseph's 3 new scriptures and his retranslated bible, etc. These latter things are still true.
And I'd take parts of D&C with a grain of salt. Ok, maybe a teaspoon of salt. :)
The more I learn to understand Isaiah the more I love the revelations in D&C.

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TheChristian
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by TheChristian »

madvin wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 7:12 pm Because of this thread, I had a dream last night about Jesus's sufferings and it clearly impressed upon me that I need to have unwavering faith in His sacrifice, but without it, I would be rejected. I wasn't left hopeless, but rather I came away with a sense of urgency to seek it out and obtain it.

I've never had anything like that happen before.

How blest you are to be given such a Vision of the night, declaring to you the Gospel message.........
That Christ Jesus died to save sinners and that whomsoever puts their faith in Jesus of Nazeraths sacrifice shall be saved to the very uttermost.
It reveals that our Lord Jesus cares for you, is mindfull of you and is calling you to the foot of His Cross in these last of days.
Therein lies safety and a sure salvation.
May our Lord Jesus continue to bless you my brother.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Hogmeister wrote: March 18th, 2023, 3:31 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 10:53 am
HereWeGo wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 10:44 am Hold fast to Christ, Joseph Smith, Joseph's 3 new scriptures and his retranslated bible, etc. These latter things are still true.
And I'd take parts of D&C with a grain of salt. Ok, maybe a teaspoon of salt. :)
The more I learn to understand Isaiah the more I love the revelations in D&C.
132 in particular… such poetry.

briznian
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Re: There is a sickness in the church

Post by briznian »

CuriousThinker wrote: March 18th, 2023, 2:36 pm
briznian wrote: February 1st, 2023, 7:00 am I see this idolatry as well. I often see mundane quotes from them passed around and praised on social media. The only reason I can think of why members find them remarkable is WHO said it, not what was said.

The idolatry has been there for quite some time. It does seem to have ratcheted up in recent years.

25+ years ago as a youth I attended a ground breaking for a temple to be built in my area. Many of the members of my ward were there and we all travelled together to be there. Afterwards, a sister in my ward approached me with some small stones that she had found and she wanted to give me some. The stones had gold paint on them from the shovels that had touched the hands of President Monson. I was supposed to cherish the stones. I thanked her kindly and when she walked away i tossed them back onto the ground. That is my primary memory of the event.
I haven't read through everything, but what happened to you reminds me of the old church video that was something or other about the woman who shook the hands of someone else who shook the hands of the prophet. My husband and I laugh about it because how absurd is that to think that a handshake holds some miraculous power. And we wonder why people act like the PSRs are idolized.
I’ve attended multiple meetings where a member of the 12 was present and the stated goal was to give each member the chance to ‘shake hands with an apostle’

Smh

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