Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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onefour1
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Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by onefour1 »

I found the quotes of these early church fathers of the Catholic and other Christian religions professing to believe in the doctrine of becoming gods to be quite interesting.

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Luke
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Luke »

I have a compilation of quotes by them somewhere. It’s a really interesting topic to explore. Bring this up to mainstream Christians and they have nothing to say in response.

onefour1
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by onefour1 »

Luke wrote: January 30th, 2023, 3:27 pm I have a compilation of quotes by them somewhere. It’s a really interesting topic to explore. Bring this up to mainstream Christians and they have nothing to say in response.
LOL!

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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If the 'infinite escalator of ascending gods' thing is true, then who was the guy who created everything from nothing? Who was the person who created protons and electrons, determined what all the strong and weak forces would be set at, made quarks, and everything that exists.

And if there never was such a personage, and the universe is just infinitely co-eternal with everything within it, then how is that different from atheism?

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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I do definitely think this could be true but if it is I don't think it happens from riding the coat tails of Christ. You have to do everything The Master did himself (the prototype of the saved man). He shows the way. You have to descend as much as you want to ascend. He overcame all by descending below all.

What made John the Baptist so special? Certainly we don't know every detail about his life but if we look at prophetic accomplishments (and I mean no disrespect) what is it exactly about his mortal life that was so outstanding for Christ to call him the greatest aside from Him? Did he do as grand of things as Moses? Did he produce as much epoch-spanning scripture of import like Isaiah? Maybe the appreciation comes from stuff he did "in heaven" before coming to earth. But would such appreciation really stem purely from pre-earth life accomplishment when we're told it's our time here on earth that weighs our standing in the afterlife? To me, Christ's love for John the Baptist and His deep praise for him implies John's soul has achieved and done very special things. Certainly paving the way for Christ was a humongous deal but I believe John did things before his life on this earth that allowed him to have the potential to have that calling should he prove faithful and I believe those things he did probably came from doing well in other lives.

I have developed a belief in multiple lives across different different cycles of existence. I believe God wants me to hurt and suffer because it's the only way I can reach higher heights. Line upon line, precept upon precept. I believe at some other point in time another world will be before me and an opportunity to come to an earth and be added upon will be offered, and I'll be filled with joy, because I understand what this means for myself. I understand that my life here added to my essence and the opportunity is before me again to grow farther more.

That whole thing about being so happy about Heavenly Father's plan of salvation that we'd hear in Sunday School. Why are we so excited to come to earth and have a body? Because we understand. This is an opportunity. This is of exceeding value.

onefour1
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by onefour1 »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 30th, 2023, 5:52 pm If the 'infinite escalator of ascending gods' thing is true, then who was the guy who created everything from nothing? Who was the person who created protons and electrons, determined what all the strong and weak forces would be set at, made quarks, and everything that exists.

And if there never was such a personage, and the universe is just infinitely co-eternal with everything within it, then how is that different from atheism?
My personal opinion is that nothing was created from nothing. From LDS scriptures we learn that the intelligences are eternal in nature and elements are eternal in nature. There is a difference between spirit element and elements that are visible to the mortal eye.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29, 33
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

The knowledge of how to combine intelligence with matter, first to spirit matter and then to the more course matter is a knowledge or power I believe only Gods have. Atheism does not believe that man can obtain such power. Gods have the power to create (not from nothing) beings that can procreate. Not sure if atheism can believe in such a concept. Gods have the power to organize things both mortal and immortal. I believe a God is a being who has learned to be trusted by most intelligences in the universe and is one who is given the knowledge entrusted to beings worthy to be a God. Thus it is a matter of progression within the pathway of the Gods who have obtained the knowledge, trust and glory to be allowed to organize intelligence with matter and to eternally procreate. Not sure that atheism would ever believe or grasp onto those concepts. First off, an atheist would need to believe in Gods in order to obtain from God the knowledge and power to become one of them. If you can't even believe in being a God, I doubt you would ever become one.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

onefour1 wrote: January 30th, 2023, 6:45 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 30th, 2023, 5:52 pm If the 'infinite escalator of ascending gods' thing is true, then who was the guy who created everything from nothing? Who was the person who created protons and electrons, determined what all the strong and weak forces would be set at, made quarks, and everything that exists.

And if there never was such a personage, and the universe is just infinitely co-eternal with everything within it, then how is that different from atheism?
My personal opinion is that nothing was created from nothing. From LDS scriptures we learn that the intelligences are eternal in nature and elements are eternal in nature. There is a difference between spirit element and elements that are visible to the mortal eye.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29, 33
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

The knowledge of how to combine intelligence with matter, first to spirit matter and then to the more course matter is a knowledge or power I believe only Gods have. Atheism does not believe that man can obtain such power. Gods have the power to create (not from nothing) beings that can procreate. Not sure if atheism can believe in such a concept. Gods have the power to organize things both mortal and immortal. I believe a God is a being who has learned to be trusted by most intelligences in the universe and is one who is given the knowledge entrusted to beings worthy to be a God. Thus it is a matter of progression within the pathway of the Gods who have obtained the knowledge, trust and glory to be allowed to organize intelligence with matter and to eternally procreate. Not sure that atheism would ever believe or grasp onto those concepts. First off, an atheist would need to believe in Gods in order to obtain from God the knowledge and power to become one of them. If you can't even believe in being a God, I doubt you would ever become one.
Your description is not too different from what I was raised culturally to believe as lds, and which I never even thought to question until recently. But it keeps coming back to me (after consideration) that this is nothing but a different brand of atheism. The universe always existed, nothing was every really created, just refined into different higher forms, gods make more gods make more gods, but there was never a 'superGod' who created everything because we're all co-eternal with everything else, so essentially the greatest God (and there are an infinite regression of them) still is just a guy who found himself within the universe and puzzled out how to push all the right buttons and operate all the right levers to ascend to the highest state of being, thus he became a 'god'. It's a theistic atheism imo, it's just in this version of an atheist universe, along with quarks, protons, electrons and all the other things that are part of the existing universe, we also have 'gods' which make more and more gods.

Oh and the current crop of atheists sure do believe they can ascend to 'godhood', via the use of progressing technology, transhumanism, AI, etc. Many of them have talked about 'becoming our own Gods'. It's not an uncommon thought among current day atheists at all (though their definition of 'god' is pretty far off from what the real God would be like, I admit).

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by BuriedTartaria »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 30th, 2023, 6:58 pm
Your description is not too different from what I was raised culturally to believe as lds, and which I never even thought to question until recently. But it keeps coming back to me (after consideration) that this is nothing but a different brand of atheism. The universe always existed, nothing was every really created, just refined into different higher forms, gods make more gods make more gods, but there was never a 'superGod' who created everything because we're all co-eternal with everything else, so essentially the greatest God (and there are an infinite regression of them) still is just a guy who found himself within the universe and puzzled out how to push all the right buttons and operate all the right levers to ascend to the highest state of being, thus he became a 'god'. It's a theistic atheism imo, it's just in this version of an atheist universe, along with quarks, protons, electrons and all the other things that are part of the existing universe, we also have 'gods' which make more and more gods.
Even though I believe there is truth to the idea of ascension (I'm not saying it is or has to be ascending to Gods) I understand you, I essentially agree with what you're saying. I just know that I don't know all the answers and there's probably more to all of this. Maybe going deeper into all of this would dispel my views of the concept of ascension.

onefour1
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by onefour1 »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 30th, 2023, 6:58 pm
onefour1 wrote: January 30th, 2023, 6:45 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 30th, 2023, 5:52 pm If the 'infinite escalator of ascending gods' thing is true, then who was the guy who created everything from nothing? Who was the person who created protons and electrons, determined what all the strong and weak forces would be set at, made quarks, and everything that exists.

And if there never was such a personage, and the universe is just infinitely co-eternal with everything within it, then how is that different from atheism?
My personal opinion is that nothing was created from nothing. From LDS scriptures we learn that the intelligences are eternal in nature and elements are eternal in nature. There is a difference between spirit element and elements that are visible to the mortal eye.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29, 33
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

The knowledge of how to combine intelligence with matter, first to spirit matter and then to the more course matter is a knowledge or power I believe only Gods have. Atheism does not believe that man can obtain such power. Gods have the power to create (not from nothing) beings that can procreate. Not sure if atheism can believe in such a concept. Gods have the power to organize things both mortal and immortal. I believe a God is a being who has learned to be trusted by most intelligences in the universe and is one who is given the knowledge entrusted to beings worthy to be a God. Thus it is a matter of progression within the pathway of the Gods who have obtained the knowledge, trust and glory to be allowed to organize intelligence with matter and to eternally procreate. Not sure that atheism would ever believe or grasp onto those concepts. First off, an atheist would need to believe in Gods in order to obtain from God the knowledge and power to become one of them. If you can't even believe in being a God, I doubt you would ever become one.
Your description is not too different from what I was raised culturally to believe as lds, and which I never even thought to question until recently. But it keeps coming back to me (after consideration) that this is nothing but a different brand of atheism. The universe always existed, nothing was every really created, just refined into different higher forms, gods make more gods make more gods, but there was never a 'superGod' who created everything because we're all co-eternal with everything else, so essentially the greatest God (and there are an infinite regression of them) still is just a guy who found himself within the universe and puzzled out how to push all the right buttons and operate all the right levers to ascend to the highest state of being, thus he became a 'god'. It's a theistic atheism imo, it's just in this version of an atheist universe, along with quarks, protons, electrons and all the other things that are part of the existing universe, we also have 'gods' which make more and more gods.

Oh and the current crop of atheists sure do believe they can ascend to 'godhood', via the use of progressing technology, transhumanism, AI, etc. Many of them have talked about 'becoming our own Gods'. It's not an uncommon thought among current day atheists at all (though their definition of 'god' is pretty far off from what the real God would be like, I admit).
I would think that it is easy for LDS to believe but more difficult for other Christians to believe since they are raised with the idea that God created everything out of nothing. Somehow they believe that it lessens God to not be able to create out of nothing. When I think about it, I simply believe that it is an eternal impossibility and cannot be done by anyone. It is infinitely impossible. Interestingly they never question the eternal existence of God himself. I find it extremely odd to think that God, at some point in the past, existed without anything else ever existing. I then think, if God has existed for an infinite past, it must have been very lonely for him to existed for an eternity past before creating his very first creation. He could have lived for eons and eons all alone without not one thing existing. That just seems very odd to me. I find it easier to believe that self-existence of things is a more rational thought of existence than creation out of nothing and a first cause of all existence out of nothing. This, to a non-LDS Christian would likely sound a lot like atheism in a way but atheists don't believe in a God who causes things to be created whether it be out of self-existing things or out of nothing. So I would agree that it is quite different from what non-LDS Christians believe but not quite along the lines of what atheists believe. The atheist may believe that they can acquire a great amount of knowledge and realize that man is a highly intelligent being that can learn to control the universe, but where I differ from that point of view is that I believe that God's honor is a source of his power. In other words, as put by Cleon Skousen in his talk, "The Atonement", I believe that there is intelligence throughout the universe and that these intelligences subject themselves to those who are recognized as God probably through God being the quality of being that he is. I think becoming like all others that are Gods, we can obtain the confidence of the intelligences of the universe to obey us. I think in this way the path of the gospel prepares us for such. How this all came about has not been revealed but my guess is that at some point in the infinite past, the confidence of all or most all intelligences has been acquired and through that obedience great power is obtained. I don't think this has crossed the minds of the atheists. Becoming a God is essential to obtaining that power.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

onefour1 wrote: January 30th, 2023, 8:23 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 30th, 2023, 6:58 pm
onefour1 wrote: January 30th, 2023, 6:45 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 30th, 2023, 5:52 pm If the 'infinite escalator of ascending gods' thing is true, then who was the guy who created everything from nothing? Who was the person who created protons and electrons, determined what all the strong and weak forces would be set at, made quarks, and everything that exists.

And if there never was such a personage, and the universe is just infinitely co-eternal with everything within it, then how is that different from atheism?
My personal opinion is that nothing was created from nothing. From LDS scriptures we learn that the intelligences are eternal in nature and elements are eternal in nature. There is a difference between spirit element and elements that are visible to the mortal eye.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29, 33
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

The knowledge of how to combine intelligence with matter, first to spirit matter and then to the more course matter is a knowledge or power I believe only Gods have. Atheism does not believe that man can obtain such power. Gods have the power to create (not from nothing) beings that can procreate. Not sure if atheism can believe in such a concept. Gods have the power to organize things both mortal and immortal. I believe a God is a being who has learned to be trusted by most intelligences in the universe and is one who is given the knowledge entrusted to beings worthy to be a God. Thus it is a matter of progression within the pathway of the Gods who have obtained the knowledge, trust and glory to be allowed to organize intelligence with matter and to eternally procreate. Not sure that atheism would ever believe or grasp onto those concepts. First off, an atheist would need to believe in Gods in order to obtain from God the knowledge and power to become one of them. If you can't even believe in being a God, I doubt you would ever become one.
Your description is not too different from what I was raised culturally to believe as lds, and which I never even thought to question until recently. But it keeps coming back to me (after consideration) that this is nothing but a different brand of atheism. The universe always existed, nothing was every really created, just refined into different higher forms, gods make more gods make more gods, but there was never a 'superGod' who created everything because we're all co-eternal with everything else, so essentially the greatest God (and there are an infinite regression of them) still is just a guy who found himself within the universe and puzzled out how to push all the right buttons and operate all the right levers to ascend to the highest state of being, thus he became a 'god'. It's a theistic atheism imo, it's just in this version of an atheist universe, along with quarks, protons, electrons and all the other things that are part of the existing universe, we also have 'gods' which make more and more gods.

Oh and the current crop of atheists sure do believe they can ascend to 'godhood', via the use of progressing technology, transhumanism, AI, etc. Many of them have talked about 'becoming our own Gods'. It's not an uncommon thought among current day atheists at all (though their definition of 'god' is pretty far off from what the real God would be like, I admit).
I would think that it is easy for LDS to believe but more difficult for other Christians to believe since they are raised with the idea that God created everything out of nothing. Somehow they believe that it lessens God to not be able to create out of nothing. When I think about it, I simply believe that it is an eternal impossibility and cannot be done by anyone. It is infinitely impossible. Interestingly they never question the eternal existence of God himself. I find it extremely odd to think that God, at some point in the past, existed without anything else ever existing. I then think, if God has existed for an infinite past, it must have been very lonely for him to existed for an eternity past before creating his very first creation. He could have lived for eons and eons all alone without not one thing existing. That just seems very odd to me. I find it easier to believe that self-existence of things is a more rational thought of existence than creation out of nothing and a first cause of all existence out of nothing. This, to a non-LDS Christian would likely sound a lot like atheism in a way but atheists don't believe in a God who causes things to be created whether it be out of self-existing things or out of nothing. So I would agree that it is quite different from what non-LDS Christians believe but not quite along the lines of what atheists believe. The atheist may believe that they can acquire a great amount of knowledge and realize that man is a highly intelligent being that can learn to control the universe, but where I differ from that point of view is that I believe that God's honor is a source of his power. In other words, as put by Cleon Skousen in his talk, "The Atonement", I believe that there is intelligence throughout the universe and that these intelligences subject themselves to those who are recognized as God probably through God being the quality of being that he is. I think becoming like all others that are Gods, we can obtain the confidence of the intelligences of the universe to obey us. I think in this way the path of the gospel prepares us for such. How this all came about has not been revealed but my guess is that at some point in the infinite past, the confidence of all or most all intelligences has been acquired and through that obedience great power is obtained. I don't think this has crossed the minds of the atheists. Becoming a God is essential to obtaining that power.
The thing is though, doesn't he tell us in scripture (Bible and BoM) that he is Alpha/Omega, First and the Last, creator of all things, eternal and uncreated? And that he knows of no other God beside himself?

I am aware that there's an interpretation that 'created' just means 'organized', but if we're all eternal, then why mention it as if it is a defining characteristic?

onefour1
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Posts: 1596

Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by onefour1 »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 30th, 2023, 10:25 pm
onefour1 wrote: January 30th, 2023, 8:23 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 30th, 2023, 6:58 pm
onefour1 wrote: January 30th, 2023, 6:45 pm

My personal opinion is that nothing was created from nothing. From LDS scriptures we learn that the intelligences are eternal in nature and elements are eternal in nature. There is a difference between spirit element and elements that are visible to the mortal eye.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29, 33
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

The knowledge of how to combine intelligence with matter, first to spirit matter and then to the more course matter is a knowledge or power I believe only Gods have. Atheism does not believe that man can obtain such power. Gods have the power to create (not from nothing) beings that can procreate. Not sure if atheism can believe in such a concept. Gods have the power to organize things both mortal and immortal. I believe a God is a being who has learned to be trusted by most intelligences in the universe and is one who is given the knowledge entrusted to beings worthy to be a God. Thus it is a matter of progression within the pathway of the Gods who have obtained the knowledge, trust and glory to be allowed to organize intelligence with matter and to eternally procreate. Not sure that atheism would ever believe or grasp onto those concepts. First off, an atheist would need to believe in Gods in order to obtain from God the knowledge and power to become one of them. If you can't even believe in being a God, I doubt you would ever become one.
Your description is not too different from what I was raised culturally to believe as lds, and which I never even thought to question until recently. But it keeps coming back to me (after consideration) that this is nothing but a different brand of atheism. The universe always existed, nothing was every really created, just refined into different higher forms, gods make more gods make more gods, but there was never a 'superGod' who created everything because we're all co-eternal with everything else, so essentially the greatest God (and there are an infinite regression of them) still is just a guy who found himself within the universe and puzzled out how to push all the right buttons and operate all the right levers to ascend to the highest state of being, thus he became a 'god'. It's a theistic atheism imo, it's just in this version of an atheist universe, along with quarks, protons, electrons and all the other things that are part of the existing universe, we also have 'gods' which make more and more gods.

Oh and the current crop of atheists sure do believe they can ascend to 'godhood', via the use of progressing technology, transhumanism, AI, etc. Many of them have talked about 'becoming our own Gods'. It's not an uncommon thought among current day atheists at all (though their definition of 'god' is pretty far off from what the real God would be like, I admit).
I would think that it is easy for LDS to believe but more difficult for other Christians to believe since they are raised with the idea that God created everything out of nothing. Somehow they believe that it lessens God to not be able to create out of nothing. When I think about it, I simply believe that it is an eternal impossibility and cannot be done by anyone. It is infinitely impossible. Interestingly they never question the eternal existence of God himself. I find it extremely odd to think that God, at some point in the past, existed without anything else ever existing. I then think, if God has existed for an infinite past, it must have been very lonely for him to existed for an eternity past before creating his very first creation. He could have lived for eons and eons all alone without not one thing existing. That just seems very odd to me. I find it easier to believe that self-existence of things is a more rational thought of existence than creation out of nothing and a first cause of all existence out of nothing. This, to a non-LDS Christian would likely sound a lot like atheism in a way but atheists don't believe in a God who causes things to be created whether it be out of self-existing things or out of nothing. So I would agree that it is quite different from what non-LDS Christians believe but not quite along the lines of what atheists believe. The atheist may believe that they can acquire a great amount of knowledge and realize that man is a highly intelligent being that can learn to control the universe, but where I differ from that point of view is that I believe that God's honor is a source of his power. In other words, as put by Cleon Skousen in his talk, "The Atonement", I believe that there is intelligence throughout the universe and that these intelligences subject themselves to those who are recognized as God probably through God being the quality of being that he is. I think becoming like all others that are Gods, we can obtain the confidence of the intelligences of the universe to obey us. I think in this way the path of the gospel prepares us for such. How this all came about has not been revealed but my guess is that at some point in the infinite past, the confidence of all or most all intelligences has been acquired and through that obedience great power is obtained. I don't think this has crossed the minds of the atheists. Becoming a God is essential to obtaining that power.
The thing is though, doesn't he tell us in scripture (Bible and BoM) that he is Alpha/Omega, First and the Last, creator of all things, eternal and uncreated? And that he knows of no other God beside himself?

I am aware that there's an interpretation that 'created' just means 'organized', but if we're all eternal, then why mention it as if it is a defining characteristic?
What comes to my mind when I hear that Christ is Alpha and Omega or in other words the First and the Last and creator of all things and eternal is that those statements are probably made in the context of God the Father's kingdom. We learn that Christ was not only the first born spirit child of God the Father but also the first of all the creations of God the Father.

Revelation 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

This tells me that Jesus was created and as far as being an intelligence he was uncreated but as far as being the first born Son of the Father he was created both physically and spiritually by receiving spirit matter and physical matter through procreation of the Father.

Once Jesus was created spiritually with a spirit body, he then excelled to become the second member of the Godhead. He was then allowed to create all things within God's kingdom excepting the other spirit children of the Father.

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

who created all things by Jesus Christ, Eph. 3:9.
by him were all things created, Col. 1:16.
his Son … by whom also he made the worlds, Heb. 1:2.
worlds were framed by the word of God, Heb. 11:3.
him that made heaven, and earth, Rev. 14:7.

Thus Jesus was the first of all the creations of God and thus is the First or Alpha and all things within God the Father's kingdom were created by him and thus he is also known as the creator of all things. I don't know if I fully comprehend how Jesus is the Last or Omega. I know that he set himself below all things that he might be in all and through all things the light of truth. Maybe by humbling himself He is the last in that respect. But he is our God from the beginning and will also be our God in the end and through him all things are saved. Perhaps in this way he is also the Last or Omega.

In the scriptures we are told that there is no other God beside him. But what does this exactly mean? We learn in Psalms 82:6 that the children of God are gods. Jesus verifies this in John 10 by telling us the following:

John 10:30-36
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Here we read that Jesus himself considered us to be gods. So obviously there are more gods than one. What I believe is meant by the phrase, "there are no other Gods beside me" is that God is our Father and the only one whom we should worship as our God. Jesus is the second member of the Godhead but taught that we should pray unto the Father. He speaks for God the Father and represents him in all things. The Father should be the primary focus of our relationship with a God and outside of the Godhead, we should have no other God to worship and follow for our salvation. The Apostle Paul put it this way:

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Here Paul first explains that idols are nothing. He then goes on to explain that even though there are gods many and lords many such as we being called gods and those who have established themselves as gods in the heavens. To us there is but one that we should worship and follow who is God our Father in heaven and also our Savior Jesus Christ who are both members of the Godhead for all who are in his kingdom. I believe in ancient writings there was no distinction between capital 'G' and small 'g' when writing the word god. However, today we distinguish the God whom we will follow for our salvation with a capital 'G' and other gods whom we should not consider our creator or savior or the one we worship with a small 'g'. So I think if we think of these things in terms of being within his kingdom and recognize God as the creator of all things within his kingdom and the only God with whom we have to do it makes sense. I think other interpretation don't seem to make sense given that we are called gods by Jesus Christ himself. This not only allows for gods to exist within God's kingdom but also allows the possibility that there are other God's outside of God the Father's kingdom.

Perhaps the phrase 'Eternal God' is mentioned because many who have lived on this earth have made gods out of material objects that are subject to decay and are seen to not last forever. Perhaps it allows us to think of what we can also become after living in a mortal world without recollection of our premortal existence. It not tells us the we are immortal as an intelligence and spirit child of God but also that we can, after this mortal life, live forever and ever with our resurrected bodies of flesh and bones. We are combined from eternal intelligence and matter but we also can go on forever and ever in that state of being thanks to the Eternal God.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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The Orthodox Church still has this doctrine today.

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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 30th, 2023, 5:52 pm If the 'infinite escalator of ascending gods' thing is true, then who was the guy who created everything from nothing? Who was the person who created protons and electrons, determined what all the strong and weak forces would be set at, made quarks, and everything that exists.

And if there never was such a personage, and the universe is just infinitely co-eternal with everything within it, then how is that different from atheism?
You make a very good point.
At it's root it is no different from atheism.

This is why I believe there is a Most High God who is self existent and is outside of creation and unaffected by time and space. A first cause if you like.

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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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Redpill you should stick to no pills and believe our lord and savior.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said, YE ARE GODS

This is saying 2 things, 1st; Old Testament is law and Psalms isn’t just songs. 2nd; we are gods, children of the most high.

I over emphasize his words a little

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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:38 am Redpill you should stick to no pills and believe our lord and savior.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said, YE ARE GODS

This is saying 2 things, 1st; Old Testament is law and Psalms isn’t just songs. 2nd; we are gods, children of the most high.

I over emphasize his words a little
Yes you did, as the words in John render it with a lower case "g".
This is very important as it distinguishes us from God.
However, it doesn't shed any light on the Most High God issue.

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ransomme
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 30th, 2023, 10:25 pm
onefour1 wrote: January 30th, 2023, 8:23 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 30th, 2023, 6:58 pm
onefour1 wrote: January 30th, 2023, 6:45 pm

My personal opinion is that nothing was created from nothing. From LDS scriptures we learn that the intelligences are eternal in nature and elements are eternal in nature. There is a difference between spirit element and elements that are visible to the mortal eye.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29, 33
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

The knowledge of how to combine intelligence with matter, first to spirit matter and then to the more course matter is a knowledge or power I believe only Gods have. Atheism does not believe that man can obtain such power. Gods have the power to create (not from nothing) beings that can procreate. Not sure if atheism can believe in such a concept. Gods have the power to organize things both mortal and immortal. I believe a God is a being who has learned to be trusted by most intelligences in the universe and is one who is given the knowledge entrusted to beings worthy to be a God. Thus it is a matter of progression within the pathway of the Gods who have obtained the knowledge, trust and glory to be allowed to organize intelligence with matter and to eternally procreate. Not sure that atheism would ever believe or grasp onto those concepts. First off, an atheist would need to believe in Gods in order to obtain from God the knowledge and power to become one of them. If you can't even believe in being a God, I doubt you would ever become one.
Your description is not too different from what I was raised culturally to believe as lds, and which I never even thought to question until recently. But it keeps coming back to me (after consideration) that this is nothing but a different brand of atheism. The universe always existed, nothing was every really created, just refined into different higher forms, gods make more gods make more gods, but there was never a 'superGod' who created everything because we're all co-eternal with everything else, so essentially the greatest God (and there are an infinite regression of them) still is just a guy who found himself within the universe and puzzled out how to push all the right buttons and operate all the right levers to ascend to the highest state of being, thus he became a 'god'. It's a theistic atheism imo, it's just in this version of an atheist universe, along with quarks, protons, electrons and all the other things that are part of the existing universe, we also have 'gods' which make more and more gods.

Oh and the current crop of atheists sure do believe they can ascend to 'godhood', via the use of progressing technology, transhumanism, AI, etc. Many of them have talked about 'becoming our own Gods'. It's not an uncommon thought among current day atheists at all (though their definition of 'god' is pretty far off from what the real God would be like, I admit).
I would think that it is easy for LDS to believe but more difficult for other Christians to believe since they are raised with the idea that God created everything out of nothing. Somehow they believe that it lessens God to not be able to create out of nothing. When I think about it, I simply believe that it is an eternal impossibility and cannot be done by anyone. It is infinitely impossible. Interestingly they never question the eternal existence of God himself. I find it extremely odd to think that God, at some point in the past, existed without anything else ever existing. I then think, if God has existed for an infinite past, it must have been very lonely for him to existed for an eternity past before creating his very first creation. He could have lived for eons and eons all alone without not one thing existing. That just seems very odd to me. I find it easier to believe that self-existence of things is a more rational thought of existence than creation out of nothing and a first cause of all existence out of nothing. This, to a non-LDS Christian would likely sound a lot like atheism in a way but atheists don't believe in a God who causes things to be created whether it be out of self-existing things or out of nothing. So I would agree that it is quite different from what non-LDS Christians believe but not quite along the lines of what atheists believe. The atheist may believe that they can acquire a great amount of knowledge and realize that man is a highly intelligent being that can learn to control the universe, but where I differ from that point of view is that I believe that God's honor is a source of his power. In other words, as put by Cleon Skousen in his talk, "The Atonement", I believe that there is intelligence throughout the universe and that these intelligences subject themselves to those who are recognized as God probably through God being the quality of being that he is. I think becoming like all others that are Gods, we can obtain the confidence of the intelligences of the universe to obey us. I think in this way the path of the gospel prepares us for such. How this all came about has not been revealed but my guess is that at some point in the infinite past, the confidence of all or most all intelligences has been acquired and through that obedience great power is obtained. I don't think this has crossed the minds of the atheists. Becoming a God is essential to obtaining that power.
The thing is though, doesn't he tell us in scripture (Bible and BoM) that he is Alpha/Omega, First and the Last, creator of all things, eternal and uncreated? And that he knows of no other God beside himself?

I am aware that there's an interpretation that 'created' just means 'organized', but if we're all eternal, then why mention it as if it is a defining characteristic?
For one it is not general knowledge in this mortal existence.

However, physicists are now learning that consciousness is more fundamental than our physical reality.

I think it's not feasible, at this time, to presume to know/understand what the eternal reality is like.

Yet I can still imagine different states. For instance, I can image that base reality is just or consciousnesses. Even that our own consciousnesses are spun off from God's consciousness, in a real sense we are, have come from God. That organizing is creating a simulation. IDK but we shall see.

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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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The "Wisdom of Solomon" which appears in Roman Catholic, Orthodox and some Lutheran & Anglican Bibles says:
Wisdom 11:17/18 – For thy Almighty hand, that made the world of matter without form, wanted not means to send among them a multitude of bears or fierce lions
viewtopic.php?t=69469

This verse doesn't appear in most Protestant Bibles, but clearly refers to creating the world out of pre-existing matter.

Personally the idea of a continuous line of gods back to infinity without any proper explanation of what brought the entire thing into play reminds me of the "elephants all the way down" explanation.
Robin Hood wrote: January 31st, 2023, 12:48 am The Orthodox Church still has this doctrine today.
The Roman Catholic ideas about the cult of saints and canonisation also resemble apotheosis. (In some cases these supposed saints are also thinly veiled pagan deities like St. Bridget, but that's another matter.)

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ransomme
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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What does God mean?
In what sense of the word are we gods?

Mini creators?
Knowers of good and evil?
Spiritual guides?
Mini judges?

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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 30th, 2023, 5:52 pm If the 'infinite escalator of ascending gods' thing is true, then who was the guy who created everything from nothing? Who was the person who created protons and electrons, determined what all the strong and weak forces would be set at, made quarks, and everything that exists.

And if there never was such a personage, and the universe is just infinitely co-eternal with everything within it, then how is that different from atheism?
our finite minds can't comprehend "who was the first God?". To us, it is God.
Abraham 3:21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
God, was in the beginning, in the midst of all the intelligences (which I think are spiritual beings before they had spiritual bodies). God found that He could progress (intelligence -> spiritual being -> physical being -> immortal being -> God), and wanted to make a way for us to progress as well. So He gave us lessons on progression. We advanced into spirit beings through the use of choice (agency), but had reached a point where we needed to become physical beings. Now here we are. Will we continue to follow the plan of progression?

It's a grand thing to contemplate.

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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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ransomme wrote: January 31st, 2023, 6:22 am What does God mean?
In what sense of the word are we gods?

Mini creators?
Knowers of good and evil?
Spiritual guides?
Mini judges?

yes. "Mini creators":

"Mini" "F"athers and "M"others and "S"ons and "D"aughters
<insert pic of your family here :) >

creators of mini "worlds"
Image

and lords over all life on earth:
Image

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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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Robin Hood wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:01 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:38 am Redpill you should stick to no pills and believe our lord and savior.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said, YE ARE GODS

This is saying 2 things, 1st; Old Testament is law and Psalms isn’t just songs. 2nd; we are gods, children of the most high.

I over emphasize his words a little
Yes you did, as the words in John render it with a lower case "g".
This is very important as it distinguishes us from God.
However, it doesn't shed any light on the Most High God issue.
Mark 12

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Brother, let’s read the law literally.
Last edited by Bronco73idi on January 31st, 2023, 9:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Robin Hood »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 8:57 am
Robin Hood wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:01 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:38 am Redpill you should stick to no pills and believe our lord and savior.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said, YE ARE GODS

This is saying 2 things, 1st; Old Testament is law and Psalms isn’t just songs. 2nd; we are gods, children of the most high.

I over emphasize his words a little
Yes you did, as the words in John render it with a lower case "g".
This is very important as it distinguishes us from God.
However, it doesn't shed any light on the Most High God issue.
Mark 12

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Brother, let’s read the law literally.
What's your point?

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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Bronco73idi »

Robin Hood wrote: January 31st, 2023, 9:01 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 8:57 am
Robin Hood wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:01 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:38 am Redpill you should stick to no pills and believe our lord and savior.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said, YE ARE GODS

This is saying 2 things, 1st; Old Testament is law and Psalms isn’t just songs. 2nd; we are gods, children of the most high.

I over emphasize his words a little
Yes you did, as the words in John render it with a lower case "g".
This is very important as it distinguishes us from God.
However, it doesn't shed any light on the Most High God issue.
Mark 12

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Brother, let’s read the law literally.
What's your point?
I edited my point in there and then saw you replied already, so I removed it. Lol

You know how many times I have heard in church about how people who don’t find their soulmate in this world will be able to find it in the next? What did Jesus say about the example of the 7 brothers and 1 wife? Mark 12:18-25


In 26 & 27 he told the Sadducees that they “ therefore do greatly err.” because they didn’t read Moses words literally.

Matthew 19
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

This is true about all of his direct words, parables and or examples.

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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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It doesn’t bother anyone that a lot of this discussion is based on Psalms 82:6 which is part of a temple play that acts out the judgement of the gods of the nations, the angelic beings (“shepherds”) which were delegated the governance of the nations?

Psalms 81 is saying how the Good Shepherd is over Israel but they reject Him in favor of other shepherds, ones that will be judged for their wrongdoing.

Why is Jesus quoting this out of context in John 10? (He’s not, BTW) There’s more to that story.

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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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Pazooka wrote: January 31st, 2023, 9:33 am It doesn’t bother anyone that a lot of this discussion is based on Psalms 82:6 which is part of a temple play that acts out the judgement of the gods of the nations, the angelic beings (“shepherds”) which were delegated the governance of the nations?

Psalms 81 is saying how the Good Shepherd is over Israel but they reject Him in favor of other shepherds, ones that will be judged for their wrongdoing.

Why is Jesus quoting this out of context in John 10? (He’s not, BTW) There’s more to that story.
I would think, you of all people should understand the the Old Testament is law….

You think this discussion is based on Psalms 82:6, I say it’s based on John 10:34 and the adulter words are a second witness.

When he talks in parables he tells us a story, the rest of the time he is direct. Why do people think an author wants people to not understand him especially when he says, ye hypocrites, to his followers.

Luke 12

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

Educate me on what Jesus is calling law and why does he say, “I said, ye are gods” in John 10:34.

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