Church presidents randomized

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Church presidents randomized

Post by marc »

The church's website has randomized the order of the list of church presidents relegating Joseph Smith to near the bottom.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/med ... s?lang=eng

Lizzy60
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8520

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by Lizzy60 »

Weird. They “randomized” by listing them alphabetically according to first name.
Who does that?

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by marc »

Lizzy60 wrote: January 30th, 2023, 8:07 am Weird. They “randomized” by listing them alphabetically according to first name.
Who does that?
I would agree with that except names are missing from that list. Just weird. Ok, just one name is missing. Still weird.
Last edited by marc on January 30th, 2023, 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
cyclOps
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1354

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by cyclOps »

What is the conclusion to be drawn from the way a collection of painted portraits of the Church Presidents are sorted alphabetically rather than by successive order in Gospel Media?

User avatar
cyclOps
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1354

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by cyclOps »

marc wrote: January 30th, 2023, 8:16 am
Lizzy60 wrote: January 30th, 2023, 8:07 am Weird. They “randomized” by listing them alphabetically according to first name.
Who does that?
I would agree with that except names are missing from that list. Just weird. Ok, just one name is missing. Still weird.
What name is missing other than Russell M Nelson?

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by marc »

What would the list of US presidents look like if they were alphabetized by first names? And why would anyone do it this way?

User avatar
Subcomandante
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4410

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by Subcomandante »

marc wrote: January 30th, 2023, 8:04 am The church's website has randomized the order of the list of church presidents relegating Joseph Smith to near the bottom.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/med ... s?lang=eng
It's not randomized. It was sorted in alphabetical order by first name.

CuriousThinker
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1187

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by CuriousThinker »

Is President Nelson not there because he hasn't had one made? Is it only done posthumously?

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by marc »

I've seen people call our church a Brighamite church. This list ordered this way coincidentally demonstrates it.

User avatar
gkearney
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5346

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by gkearney »

Putting on my librarian hat here for a moment. I know of no situation where ordering European names by first name is a standard practice.

The Anglo American Cataloguing Rules hold that it should be done by last name, preferably in the form last name first like this:

Nelson, Russell M.

I now return you to your regular postings.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13997

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by Niemand »

marc wrote: January 30th, 2023, 8:22 am What would the list of US presidents look like if they were alphabetized by first names? And why would anyone do it this way?
Would Bill Clinton be under B or W?

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13997

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by Niemand »

gkearney wrote: January 30th, 2023, 9:03 am Putting on my librarian hat here for a moment. I know of no situation where ordering European names by first name is a standard practice.

The Anglo American Cataloguing Rules hold that it should be done by last name, preferably in the form last name first like this:

Nelson, Russell M.

I now return you to your regular postings.
That's the logical way although it gets complicated with double-barrel names.

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by Luke »

marc wrote: January 30th, 2023, 8:45 am I've seen people call our church a Brighamite church. This list ordered this way coincidentally demonstrates it.
The LDS Corp is definitely not Brighamite. Grantite maybe.

User avatar
madvin
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1114
Location: Stillwater OK

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by madvin »

Niemand wrote: January 30th, 2023, 10:25 am
marc wrote: January 30th, 2023, 8:22 am What would the list of US presidents look like if they were alphabetized by first names? And why would anyone do it this way?
Would Bill Clinton be under B or W?
Under K for Kill.

silverado
captain of 100
Posts: 612

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by silverado »

Subcomandante wrote: January 30th, 2023, 8:30 am
marc wrote: January 30th, 2023, 8:04 am The church's website has randomized the order of the list of church presidents relegating Joseph Smith to near the bottom.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/med ... s?lang=eng
It's not randomized. It was sorted in alphabetical order by first name.
Randomized as to succession.

I think they should have been listed alphabetically by middle initial.

User avatar
Fred
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7610
Location: Zion

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by Fred »

How about listing them according to how many times they said "Thus saith the Lord"?

User avatar
cyclOps
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1354

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by cyclOps »

CuriousThinker wrote: January 30th, 2023, 8:38 am Is President Nelson not there because he hasn't had one made? Is it only done posthumously?
Likely

User avatar
cyclOps
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1354

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by cyclOps »

I agree it’s abnormal to sort successors by first name rather than successive order, but it’s insignificant.

User avatar
oneClimbs
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3187
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by oneClimbs »

User Experience (UX) designer input here. Sometimes when odd things like this occur it usually a result of two things: 1) poor planning 2) planning based on specific user habits.

As far as RMN not appearing, note that this image library is called "PAST leaders" which should fix that issue.

But on point #2, note that most members of the church refer to presidents by their first names first. I do agree that it would seem that chronological order or even by last name would seem instinctively appropriate, and perhaps it started that way. Anyone willing to do an archive.org search?

But sometimes things are organized based on the target audience's behavior. UX design is all about understanding your user and making your interface as usable to them as possible. It's strongly likely that 99% of people that use this library are members of the church. The church seems to have good designers who do their homework as far as how people use their interfaces. We've seen many changes to the church websites over the years to make them more user friendly.

As someone in that field, I think they've done great work and the order of presidents here likely reflects how members are mostly likely to search for church presidents, which is by their first name. Anyway, just my input.

Lizzy60
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8520

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by Lizzy60 »

I don’t think any church members have referred to the Presidents of the church by their first names, except for Joseph and Brigham. In fact, we tend to use the full name, including middle initial. First only or surname only is seen as disrespectful.

Lizzy60
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8520

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by Lizzy60 »

I think this happened because some low-wage data input person had a list of the name, and then punched the alphabetical order sorting option, thinking it would be by surname, and didn’t check his work.

User avatar
Baurak Ale
Nauvoo Legion Captain
Posts: 1068
Location: The North Countries (Upper Midwest, USA)

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by Baurak Ale »

oneClimbs wrote: January 30th, 2023, 11:37 am User Experience (UX) designer input here. Sometimes when odd things like this occur it usually a result of two things: 1) poor planning 2) planning based on specific user habits.

As far as RMN not appearing, note that this image library is called "PAST leaders" which should fix that issue.

But on point #2, note that most members of the church refer to presidents by their first names first. I do agree that it would seem that chronological order or even by last name would seem instinctively appropriate, and perhaps it started that way. Anyone willing to do an archive.org search?

But sometimes things are organized based on the target audience's behavior. UX design is all about understanding your user and making your interface as usable to them as possible. It's strongly likely that 99% of people that use this library are members of the church. The church seems to have good designers who do their homework as far as how people use their interfaces. We've seen many changes to the church websites over the years to make them more user friendly.

As someone in that field, I think they've done great work and the order of presidents here likely reflects how members are mostly likely to search for church presidents, which is by their first name. Anyway, just my input.
Yeah, it's just the default ordering for the Flex class CSS object used to display the items. Sorting by last name would require the item titles to be renamed with last names first (Young, Brigham) or use a hidden element. I don't think anyone thought too much about this, and I'm sure no one thought a forum of fanatics would take a cheap systematic output as evidence of nefarious intentions. After all, like Luke said, the modern church is not Brighamite by any stretch of the imagination.

Here's a screenshot of the source code:
Past Presidents source code.png
Past Presidents source code.png (456.37 KiB) Viewed 337 times

User avatar
gkearney
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5346

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by gkearney »

Niemand wrote: January 30th, 2023, 10:25 am
marc wrote: January 30th, 2023, 8:22 am What would the list of US presidents look like if they were alphabetized by first names? And why would anyone do it this way?
Would Bill Clinton be under B or W?
Clinton, William (Bill) J.

User avatar
InfoWarrior82
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10861
Location: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." -President Nelson (Jan 2022)

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Fred wrote: January 30th, 2023, 11:11 am How about listing them according to how many times they said "Thus saith the Lord"?

If we did that, only these 4 men would be on the screen:

Joseph Smith
Brigham Young
John Taylor
Wilford Woodruff


Can anyone prove me wrong?

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13997

Re: Church presidents randomized

Post by Niemand »

gkearney wrote: January 30th, 2023, 12:00 pm
Niemand wrote: January 30th, 2023, 10:25 am
marc wrote: January 30th, 2023, 8:22 am What would the list of US presidents look like if they were alphabetized by first names? And why would anyone do it this way?
Would Bill Clinton be under B or W?
Clinton, William (Bill) J.
Formally William but known to one and all as Bill. And less polite names!

Post Reply