Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

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Ebenezer
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Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by Ebenezer »

From the recap:

Elder Hamilton encouraged the audience to substitute the words “the Church” for the word “Savior” in those sentences because it puts a different perspective on things when one says they disagree with the Savior.

https://universe.byu.edu/2023/01/24/eld ... ed-church/

The quote:

“Could I suggest an alternative approach?” he asked. “Substitute the word ‘Savior’ or ‘Lord’ or ‘Jesus Christ’ in place of ‘the Church.’ ... For me, personally, that seems to put a very different perspective on things.”

And a longer recap of the Ted Talk style "devotional" (because college kids will pay more attention to that kind of thing)

https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-fa ... the-church

In the name of The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, amen.
Last edited by Ebenezer on January 29th, 2023, 1:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

tribrac
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by tribrac »

I think his talk will not have the effect he thought it might have.

It feels like they are desperate to capture the devotion of the LDS people. Not sure if their desperation is sincere for noble good, or self serving.

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gruden2.0
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by gruden2.0 »

Elder Hamilton said students must settle this important issue of an organized church deep in their hearts. He said, “The Savior Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are inseparably joined together.”
What is the scriptural justification for this? I can't think of any.

The Church of the Firstborn might approach that, but there's nothing saying the Mormon church is inseparately conjoined.


Lizzy60
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Lizzy60 »

From the Church News article:

He said he has heard others say the Prophet and Apostles can make mistakes and are simply human. While this can be true, Elder Hamilton reminded listeners that decisions which are made in Christ’s Church always require a unanimous vote. When the Prophet and Apostles speak in unity, they do so on behalf of the Savior, Himself.

On an individualistic level, all should remember to be humble followers of the Lord, Elder Hamilton said. This means changing one’s own heart and mind through repentance, which allows change in circumstances to follow.

He has met people who point out their ideas or perceived Church shortcomings and say they feel they are loyal to Christ — but not to some of His Church’s teachings. Elder Hamilton quoted President Dallin H. Oaks, first counselor in the First Presidency, who said in April 2016 general conference, “There is no warrant for this concept in the government of God’s kingdom, where questions are honored but opposition is not.”

Elder Hamilton continued to explain that he will sometimes hear members say they do not support certain Church policies or do not agree with the way the Church does something. “Could I suggest an alternative approach?” he asked. “Substitute the word ‘Savior’ or ‘Lord’ or ‘Jesus Christ’ in place of ‘the Church.’ ... For me, personally, that seems to put a very different perspective on things.”

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by BuriedTartaria »

This church is dying. The clear ramp up in messaging like this is a sign of recognizing that a bleeding out is occurring

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Niemand
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Niemand »

There is a word for this, it's "churchianity". This obviously isn't by a Mormon but check it out!
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Godislove
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Godislove »

gruden2.0 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 11:46 am
Elder Hamilton said students must settle this important issue of an organized church deep in their hearts. He said, “The Savior Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are inseparably joined together.”
What is the scriptural justification for this? I can't think of any.

The Church of the Firstborn might approach that, but there's nothing saying the Mormon church is inseparately conjoined.
Not the exact wording saying 'inseparately conjoined' but if the Lord is saying this then I would think they are inseparably joined together.
D&C 115:4
4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Robin Hood »

It seems this Elder is saying the opposite of the thread title.
He's saying replace "church" with Saviour/Lord/Jesus etc. not the other way round as the thread title suggests.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Robin Hood wrote: January 29th, 2023, 1:33 pm It seems this Elder is saying the opposite of the thread title.
He's saying replace "church" with Saviour/Lord/Jesus etc. not the other way round as the thread title suggests.
Agreed.

“Elder Hamilton encouraged the audience to substitute the words “the Church” for the word “Savior” in those sentences because it puts a different perspective on things when one says they disagree with the Savior.“

This is why the pride of the gentile church is referenced so often in the BoM. They feel these terms are synonymous.

Another example: “For when president Nelson speaks, he speaks for the Lord.” Nah.. I don’t think so.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

His one phrase was comical. He doesn’t believe the church contradicts the words of Christ in any way. You can’t disagree with the church and also think you haven’t lessened your faith in Christ.

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Ebenezer
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Ebenezer »

Robin Hood wrote: January 29th, 2023, 1:33 pm It seems this Elder is saying the opposite of the thread title.
He's saying replace "church" with Saviour/Lord/Jesus etc. not the other way round as the thread title suggests.
I edited the title for clarity.

Trucker
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Trucker »

That is appalling. But if he is right, then the Lord does want us to call ourselves "Mormons". And children of gay parents shouldn't be baptized. Adam is Heavenly Father. Blacks were less valiant in the preexistence and will be servants forever. The covid vaccine is a literal godsend.

All these things were official doctrines and/or policies of the church stated by the President of the Church. Many of them just in recent memory.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

So, for all those who claim that our church does not teach infallibility.... Here's your proof that we do.

tribrac
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by tribrac »

I really want this to make sense to me. But I am struggling....

If Brigham introduced the ban on priesthood for blacks...it is him being faliable...

But if it is unanimously supported by the 15 for 150 years it is the will of Jesus?

spiritMan
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by spiritMan »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:26 pm So, for all those who claim that our church does not teach infallibility.... Here's your proof that we do.
Only if it's unanimous . . .

Which then begs the question . . . how much real dissent is there at the top? How much real dissent can there be at the top?

If everyone is licking the boots of Nelson and treating him like Christ then those in the Q15 know that to dissent from Nelson is to dissent from Christ himself.

Which means it just turns into a self-licking ice-cream cone.

Nelson is God's Prophet.
Nelson is fallible, he is only infallible when the Q15 are united with him.
We know the Church teaches truth because when the Q15 agree on something it is God's will.
The Q15 know with absolute fever that Nelson is God's Prophet.
To disagree with Nelson is to disagree with the Lord's Anointed and put yourself in jeopardy of hellfire.
The Q15 agree with Nelson because he is God's Prophet and sustain his actions.
The Q15 are therefore in agreement with the Prophet and we know it is from God because they are all in agreement.

SMH . . .

In other words, the Prophet runs the Church and whatever he states goes, whether it is or isn't of God.

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Thinker
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Thinker »

Trucker wrote: January 29th, 2023, 1:56 pm That is appalling. But if he is right, then the Lord does want us to call ourselves "Mormons". And children of gay parents shouldn't be baptized. Adam is Heavenly Father. Blacks were less valiant in the preexistence and will be servants forever. The covid vaccine is a literal godsend.

All these things were official doctrines and/or policies of the church stated by the President of the Church. Many of them just in recent memory.
Good points!

Some characteristics of a CULT:

1. They’re narcissistic
Cult leaders believe they’re special and are on a special mission to lead humanity to the light. They have fantasies of unlimited success and power. They’re constantly seeking the admiration of others and enjoy being the center of attention.

(Ie: Equating themselves with God)

5. They claim to have supernatural powers
Cult leaders do this to highlight the power imbalance.
“I’m special. I have access to supernatural powers. You’re not special. So, you don’t.”
Cult leaders may claim they have magical powers like talking to aliens, healing, or telepathy.

(Ie: Equating themselves with God)

6. They’re arrogant and boastful
Again, to remind their followers that they’re above them and to reinforce their high status.

(Ie: Equating themselves with God)

9. They’re persuasive
Cult leaders are excellent marketers. They have to be, or they won’t be able to gain followers and raise their status. They know what makes people tick. They know how to cater to the basic needs of their followers.

(Ie: Equating themselves with God)

10. They’re authoritative and controlling
Cult leaders tend to control every little aspect of their followers’ lives. What to wear, what to eat, what to say, what not to say, and so on. This is done to keep the followers in line and reinforce their low status and low power…

(Ie: Equating themselves with God)

11. They’re exploitative
The goal of all that authoritativeness and control is exploitation. Cult leaders make their followers submissive and weak to exploit them easily. Intelligent cult leaders exploit their followers in such a way that the followers don’t see it as exploitation.

(Ie: Equating themselves with God)

13. They’re intolerant of criticism
Cult leaders can become enraged when they’re criticized. To them, criticism is a threat to their high status. That’s why they resort to extreme measures to prevent any criticism. Those who criticize are severely punished, humiliated, or even eliminated.

(Ie: Equating themselves with God)
https://www.psychmechanics.com/characte ... t-leaders/
Last edited by Thinker on January 29th, 2023, 3:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Chip
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by Chip »

https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/28



7 These too have indulged in wine
and are giddy with strong drink:
priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor.
They are intoxicated with wine
and stagger because of strong drink;
they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions.
8 For all tables are filled with vomit;
no spot is without excrement.


As the political and ecclesiastical leaderships of Jehovah’s people always appear on a par (Isaiah 3:2-4; 9:14-16; 24:2), so Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” (vv 1, 4) include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers” (Isaiah 56:10-12). Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception (v 15), they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies. Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah (vv 9, 14, 16, 26, 29), they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people (vv 10-13; Isaiah 32:6). The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.

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gruden2.0
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by gruden2.0 »

Godislove wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:42 pm
gruden2.0 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 11:46 am
Elder Hamilton said students must settle this important issue of an organized church deep in their hearts. He said, “The Savior Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are inseparably joined together.”
What is the scriptural justification for this? I can't think of any.

The Church of the Firstborn might approach that, but there's nothing saying the Mormon church is inseparately conjoined.
Not the exact wording saying 'inseparately conjoined' but if the Lord is saying this then I would think they are inseparably joined together.
D&C 115:4
4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
That doesn't really prove Hamilton's statement. It simply means that in 1838 the Lord was willing to claim the church. There is no oath or covenant it will always remain so. Everything is predicated upon serving the Lord, no blessing is guaranteed without effort otherwise God is a respecter of persons. It's really the same mistake the Jews made, assuming that they were the chosen and would always be the chosen no matter what they did (or didn't do).

If you read further in section 124, the Lord tests the church and promises if they build the Nauvoo temple it will be made holy and the LDS will not be moved. If they fail, they receive cursings, wrath, indignation and judgments (vvs 42-48). How did that work out? Couple this with 3 Ne 16:9-11 it lays out how it will play out in our times, where the Gospel will be turned over to the Gentiles, who will reject it, then it will be given back to Israel.

This was all foretold. I don't understand why we assume the Mormon church is entitled to something it hasn't earned.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Silver Pie »

I am so glad I left that nonsense behind.
Lizzy60 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:26 pm From the Church News article:

He said he has heard others say the Prophet and Apostles can make mistakes and are simply human. While this can be true, Elder Hamilton reminded listeners that decisions which are made in Christ’s Church always require a unanimous vote. When the Prophet and Apostles speak in unity, they do so on behalf of the Savior, Himself.

On an individualistic level, all should remember to be humble followers of the Lord, Elder Hamilton said. This means changing one’s own heart and mind through repentance, which allows change in circumstances to follow.

He has met people who point out their ideas or perceived Church shortcomings and say they feel they are loyal to Christ — but not to some of His Church’s teachings. Elder Hamilton quoted President Dallin H. Oaks, first counselor in the First Presidency, who said in April 2016 general conference, “There is no warrant for this concept in the government of God’s kingdom, where questions are honored but opposition is not.”

Elder Hamilton continued to explain that he will sometimes hear members say they do not support certain Church policies or do not agree with the way the Church does something. “Could I suggest an alternative approach?” he asked. “Substitute the word ‘Savior’ or ‘Lord’ or ‘Jesus Christ’ in place of ‘the Church.’ ... For me, personally, that seems to put a very different perspective on things.”

TwochurchesOnly
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

Lizzy60 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:26 pm From the Church News article:

He said he has heard others say the Prophet and Apostles can make mistakes and are simply human. While this can be true, Elder Hamilton reminded listeners that decisions which are made in Christ’s Church always require a unanimous vote. When the Prophet and Apostles speak in unity, they do so on behalf of the Savior, Himself.

On an individualistic level, all should remember to be humble followers of the Lord, Elder Hamilton said. This means changing one’s own heart and mind through repentance, which allows change in circumstances to follow.

He has met people who point out their ideas or perceived Church shortcomings and say they feel they are loyal to Christ — but not to some of His Church’s teachings. Elder Hamilton quoted President Dallin H. Oaks, first counselor in the First Presidency, who said in April 2016 general conference, “There is no warrant for this concept in the government of God’s kingdom, where questions are honored but opposition is not.”

Elder Hamilton continued to explain that he will sometimes hear members say they do not support certain Church policies or do not agree with the way the Church does something. “Could I suggest an alternative approach?” he asked. “Substitute the word ‘Savior’ or ‘Lord’ or ‘Jesus Christ’ in place of ‘the Church.’ ... For me, personally, that seems to put a very different perspective on things.”
Idiotic

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TheDuke
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by TheDuke »

Who is Hamilton that I should even care?

Lizzy60
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by Lizzy60 »

TheDuke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:02 pm Who is Hamilton that I should even care?
He is a General Authority Seventy.

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TheDuke
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by TheDuke »

Lizzy60 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:03 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:02 pm Who is Hamilton that I should even care?
He is a General Authority Seventy.
Exactly, no body at all. and likely an @#$ kisser looking for a promotion.

TwochurchesOnly
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

spiritMan wrote: January 29th, 2023, 3:28 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:26 pm So, for all those who claim that our church does not teach infallibility.... Here's your proof that we do.
Only if it's unanimous . . .

Which then begs the question . . . how much real dissent is there at the top? How much real dissent can there be at the top?

If everyone is licking the boots of Nelson and treating him like Christ then those in the Q15 know that to dissent from Nelson is to dissent from Christ himself.

Which means it just turns into a self-licking ice-cream cone.

Nelson is God's Prophet.
Nelson is fallible, he is only infallible when the Q15 are united with him.
We know the Church teaches truth because when the Q15 agree on something it is God's will.
The Q15 know with absolute fever that Nelson is God's Prophet.
To disagree with Nelson is to disagree with the Lord's Anointed and put yourself in jeopardy of hellfire.
The Q15 agree with Nelson because he is God's Prophet and sustain his actions.
The Q15 are therefore in agreement with the Prophet and we know it is from God because they are all in agreement.

SMH . . .

In other words, the Prophet runs the Church and whatever he states goes, whether it is or isn't of God.
Self-licking ice cream cone 🤣😆🍦

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