Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

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TwochurchesOnly
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

spiritMan wrote: January 29th, 2023, 3:28 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:26 pm So, for all those who claim that our church does not teach infallibility.... Here's your proof that we do.
Only if it's unanimous . . .

Which then begs the question . . . how much real dissent is there at the top? How much real dissent can there be at the top?

If everyone is licking the boots of Nelson and treating him like Christ then those in the Q15 know that to dissent from Nelson is to dissent from Christ himself.

Which means it just turns into a self-licking ice-cream cone.

Nelson is God's Prophet.
Nelson is fallible, he is only infallible when the Q15 are united with him.
We know the Church teaches truth because when the Q15 agree on something it is God's will.
The Q15 know with absolute fever that Nelson is God's Prophet.
To disagree with Nelson is to disagree with the Lord's Anointed and put yourself in jeopardy of hellfire.
The Q15 agree with Nelson because he is God's Prophet and sustain his actions.
The Q15 are therefore in agreement with the Prophet and we know it is from God because they are all in agreement.

SMH . . .

In other words, the Prophet runs the Church and whatever he states goes, whether it is or isn't of God.
Self-licking ice cream cone 🤣😆🍦

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Luke
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Luke »

Trucker wrote: January 29th, 2023, 1:56 pm That is appalling. But if he is right, then the Lord does want us to call ourselves "Mormons". And children of gay parents shouldn't be baptized. Adam is Heavenly Father. Blacks were less valiant in the preexistence and will be servants forever. The covid vaccine is a literal godsend.

All these things were official doctrines and/or policies of the church stated by the President of the Church. Many of them just in recent memory.
Adam is Heavenly Father and the blacks are cursed. I think God is ambivalent about the word “Mormon”. The other two are clearly false doctrines, although children of gay parents should disavow their parents’ lifestyle as a sin beforehand.

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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:07 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:03 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:02 pm Who is Hamilton that I should even care?
He is a General Authority Seventy.
Exactly, no body at all. and likely an @#$ kisser looking for a promotion.
Do you care what the Q15 say?

TwochurchesOnly
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

gruden2.0 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:05 pm
Godislove wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:42 pm
gruden2.0 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 11:46 am
Elder Hamilton said students must settle this important issue of an organized church deep in their hearts. He said, “The Savior Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are inseparably joined together.”
What is the scriptural justification for this? I can't think of any.

The Church of the Firstborn might approach that, but there's nothing saying the Mormon church is inseparately conjoined.
Not the exact wording saying 'inseparately conjoined' but if the Lord is saying this then I would think they are inseparably joined together.
D&C 115:4
4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
That doesn't really prove Hamilton's statement. It simply means that in 1838 the Lord was willing to claim the church. There is no oath or covenant it will always remain so. Everything is predicated upon serving the Lord, no blessing is guaranteed without effort otherwise God is a respecter of persons. It's really the same mistake the Jews made, assuming that they were the chosen and would always be the chosen no matter what they did (or didn't do).

If you read further in section 124, the Lord tests the church and promises if they build the Nauvoo temple it will be made holy and the LDS will not be moved. If they fail, they receive cursings, wrath, indignation and judgments (vvs 42-48). How did that work out? Couple this with 3 Ne 16:9-11 it lays out how it will play out in our times, where the Gospel will be turned over to the Gentiles, who will reject it, then it will be given back to Israel.

This was all foretold. I don't understand why we assume the Mormon church is entitled to something it hasn't earned.

The Corp website "church of Jesus Christ. org "
Quite misleading, I think-- as though the church has stamp of approval... what do you think?

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TheDuke
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:30 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:07 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:03 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:02 pm Who is Hamilton that I should even care?
He is a General Authority Seventy.
Exactly, no body at all. and likely an @#$ kisser looking for a promotion.
Do you care what the Q15 say?
Not really. Once and a while I will read some doctrine that seems good but frankly seldom do I spend my time listening to them, plenty of scriptures and JS words to read.

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Rumpelstiltskin
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

More false doctrine. Next comes "substitute Pres Nelson's name for the Savior."

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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:36 pm More false doctrine. Next comes "substitute Pres Nelson's name for the Savior."
They already have: “We have the voice of the Lord through His prophet to calm our fears and lift our sights, for when President Nelson speaks, he speaks for the Lord.” -Rasband

tribrac
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by tribrac »

Following this logic....

For 150 years Jesus was okay with the term "Mormons" . For 20 years He wanted an advertising campaign featuring the term. In 2018 He became deeply offended by it.

And I am not supposed to notice?

This would be so much easier if I was a TBM.

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Fred
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by Fred »

spiritMan wrote: January 29th, 2023, 3:28 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:26 pm So, for all those who claim that our church does not teach infallibility.... Here's your proof that we do.
Only if it's unanimous . . .

Which then begs the question . . . how much real dissent is there at the top? How much real dissent can there be at the top?

If everyone is licking the boots of Nelson and treating him like Christ then those in the Q15 know that to dissent from Nelson is to dissent from Christ himself.

Which means it just turns into a self-licking ice-cream cone.

Nelson is God's Prophet.
Nelson is fallible, he is only infallible when the Q15 are united with him.
We know the Church teaches truth because when the Q15 agree on something it is God's will.
The Q15 know with absolute fever that Nelson is God's Prophet.
To disagree with Nelson is to disagree with the Lord's Anointed and put yourself in jeopardy of hellfire.
The Q15 agree with Nelson because he is God's Prophet and sustain his actions.
The Q15 are therefore in agreement with the Prophet and we know it is from God because they are all in agreement.

SMH . . .

In other words, the Prophet runs the Church and whatever he states goes, whether it is or isn't of God.
The Q15 are unanimous in following satan. I didn't see where they ask God or Jesus their opinion on the matter. To pretend that God agrees with everything they do is laughable.

I don't even see where they get their supposed authority from. They just get their authority from each other. In times past, heavenly visitors came to the temple. I don't recall one ever coming to the church office building or McConkie law firm. But even that was over a hundred years ago. When a prophet has a visitation, he always says so. Not 15 democrats voted on something, when it isn't even possible for a democrat to be a Christian, and we are supposed to believe it.

Basically, what they are saying is that God wants them to finance abortions, sponsor gay parades, praise Joe Biden, criticize Trump for improving the economy, join the WEF, lie about climate change so that people will believe absolute lies and find it easier to follow satan, lie about the clot shot, and thousands of other pure evil actions. I find it very hard to believe that a follower of Christ would do any of that.

blitzinstripes
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by blitzinstripes »

Shall we rewrite the hymnbooks?

"Our church's Love"
"Nelson wants me for a Sunbeam"
"I'm trying to be like Nelson"
"Come Follow Me, the Church Said"...
"Corporate Savior, Pilot Me"
"Nelson Once of Humble Birth"
"I Believe in Church "
"The Spirit of Church Like a Fire is Burning"
"I Am a Child of Church "

TwochurchesOnly
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

blitzinstripes wrote: January 29th, 2023, 8:39 pm Shall we rewrite the hymnbooks?

"Our church's Love"
"Nelson wants me for a Sunbeam"
"I'm trying to be like Nelson"
"Come Follow Me, the Church Said"...
"Corporate Savior, Pilot Me"
"Nelson Once of Humble Birth"
"I Believe in Church "
"The Spirit of Church Like a Fire is Burning"
"I Am a Child of Church "
🎯🎯

Lizzy60
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by Lizzy60 »

https://wheatandtares.org/2023/01/29/i- ... -hymn-134/

Someone at Wheat and Tares has numerous verses of “I Believe in Church” all ready to go.

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J2
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by J2 »

gruden2.0 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:05 pm
Godislove wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:42 pm
gruden2.0 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 11:46 am
Elder Hamilton said students must settle this important issue of an organized church deep in their hearts. He said, “The Savior Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are inseparably joined together.”
What is the scriptural justification for this? I can't think of any.

The Church of the Firstborn might approach that, but there's nothing saying the Mormon church is inseparately conjoined.
Not the exact wording saying 'inseparately conjoined' but if the Lord is saying this then I would think they are inseparably joined together.
D&C 115:4
4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
That doesn't really prove Hamilton's statement. It simply means that in 1838 the Lord was willing to claim the church. There is no oath or covenant it will always remain so. Everything is predicated upon serving the Lord, no blessing is guaranteed without effort otherwise God is a respecter of persons. It's really the same mistake the Jews made, assuming that they were the chosen and would always be the chosen no matter what they did (or didn't do).

If you read further in section 124, the Lord tests the church and promises if they build the Nauvoo temple it will be made holy and the LDS will not be moved. If they fail, they receive cursings, wrath, indignation and judgments (vvs 42-48). How did that work out? Couple this with 3 Ne 16:9-11 it lays out how it will play out in our times, where the Gospel will be turned over to the Gentiles, who will reject it, then it will be given back to Israel.

This was all foretold. I don't understand why we assume the Mormon church is entitled to something it hasn't earned.
In response to the poster who quoted D&C 115:4, I'd add this important additional context from the 3 Nephi 27:8:
And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
That last part is critical. The LDS church can ONLY be Christ's church if it continues to be based solely on Christ's gospel.

Whether it has fulfilled that requirement or not, is certainly up for debate.

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J2
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by J2 »

Also, thank you to the OP for posting this thread. I was planning to post about it myself but you beat me to it.

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Chip
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by Chip »

All this conflation of the church with Christ is getting to be blasphemous.

Getting rid of "Mormon" and demanding people use the Savior's name all the time in reference to the church is like taking the Lord's name in vain, because the church is in bed with the secret combination we are supposed to be awakening to.

Replacing "church" with "Savior" is really off-base. Don't these guys worry about rogue lightning strikes, or anything?

Every day, I realize more that I just don't want to be in their club, and as much as I don't like them, I imagine they'd dislike me even more.

They can have it.

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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace "the church" with the name of the Savior

Post by iWriteStuff »

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:36 pm More false doctrine. Next comes "substitute Pres Nelson's name for the Savior."
Oh, easy. Following Hamilton's suggestion to input "Jesus" where you see "church":

"Jesus Christ is led by President Nelson".

Fight for the right
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Fight for the right »

Lizzy60 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:26 pm From the Church News article:

He said he has heard others say the Prophet and Apostles can make mistakes and are simply human. While this can be true, Elder Hamilton reminded listeners that decisions which are made in Christ’s Church always require a unanimous vote. When the Prophet and Apostles speak in unity, they do so on behalf of the Savior, Himself.

On an individualistic level, all should remember to be humble followers of the Lord, Elder Hamilton said. This means changing one’s own heart and mind through repentance, which allows change in circumstances to follow.

He has met people who point out their ideas or perceived Church shortcomings and say they feel they are loyal to Christ — but not to some of His Church’s teachings. Elder Hamilton quoted President Dallin H. Oaks, first counselor in the First Presidency, who said in April 2016 general conference, “There is no warrant for this concept in the government of God’s kingdom, where questions are honored but opposition is not.”

Elder Hamilton continued to explain that he will sometimes hear members say they do not support certain Church policies or do not agree with the way the Church does something. “Could I suggest an alternative approach?” he asked. “Substitute the word ‘Savior’ or ‘Lord’ or ‘Jesus Christ’ in place of ‘the Church.’ ... For me, personally, that seems to put a very different perspective on things.”
Elder Hamilton and many others forget the most important part in making a change in policies or anything else of high importance in Jesus Christ's Church. The confirmation of the Holy Spirit. We as members can have that confirmation if we pray and ask for it. The COVID situation with regards to taking the so called vaccine was not a revelation from Jesus Christ.

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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Luke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:21 pm
Trucker wrote: January 29th, 2023, 1:56 pm That is appalling. But if he is right, then the Lord does want us to call ourselves "Mormons". And children of gay parents shouldn't be baptized. Adam is Heavenly Father. Blacks were less valiant in the preexistence and will be servants forever. The covid vaccine is a literal godsend.

All these things were official doctrines and/or policies of the church stated by the President of the Church. Many of them just in recent memory.
Adam is Heavenly Father and the blacks are cursed. I think God is ambivalent about the word “Mormon”. The other two are clearly false doctrines, although children of gay parents should disavow their parents’ lifestyle as a sin beforehand.
Have you asked God to know if Blacks are cursed? Like really asked God? The BoM would suggest otherwise. I honestly think you need to watch Rob Fotheringham’s video on Blacks. The church really messed up big time in their false interpretation of the scriptures.

Godislove
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Godislove »

gruden2.0 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:05 pm
Godislove wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:42 pm
gruden2.0 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 11:46 am
Elder Hamilton said students must settle this important issue of an organized church deep in their hearts. He said, “The Savior Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are inseparably joined together.”
What is the scriptural justification for this? I can't think of any.

The Church of the Firstborn might approach that, but there's nothing saying the Mormon church is inseparately conjoined.
Not the exact wording saying 'inseparately conjoined' but if the Lord is saying this then I would think they are inseparably joined together.
D&C 115:4
4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
That doesn't really prove Hamilton's statement. It simply means that in 1838 the Lord was willing to claim the church. There is no oath or covenant it will always remain so. Everything is predicated upon serving the Lord, no blessing is guaranteed without effort otherwise God is a respecter of persons. It's really the same mistake the Jews made, assuming that they were the chosen and would always be the chosen no matter what they did (or didn't do).

If you read further in section 124, the Lord tests the church and promises if they build the Nauvoo temple it will be made holy and the LDS will not be moved. If they fail, they receive cursings, wrath, indignation and judgments (vvs 42-48). How did that work out? Couple this with 3 Ne 16:9-11 it lays out how it will play out in our times, where the Gospel will be turned over to the Gentiles, who will reject it, then it will be given back to Israel.

This was all foretold. I don't understand why we assume the Mormon church is entitled to something it hasn't earned.
D&C 138:44
Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people;

Lizzy60
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Lizzy60 »

Godislove wrote: January 30th, 2023, 7:50 am
gruden2.0 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:05 pm
Godislove wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:42 pm
gruden2.0 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 11:46 am

What is the scriptural justification for this? I can't think of any.

The Church of the Firstborn might approach that, but there's nothing saying the Mormon church is inseparately conjoined.
Not the exact wording saying 'inseparately conjoined' but if the Lord is saying this then I would think they are inseparably joined together.
D&C 115:4
4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
That doesn't really prove Hamilton's statement. It simply means that in 1838 the Lord was willing to claim the church. There is no oath or covenant it will always remain so. Everything is predicated upon serving the Lord, no blessing is guaranteed without effort otherwise God is a respecter of persons. It's really the same mistake the Jews made, assuming that they were the chosen and would always be the chosen no matter what they did (or didn't do).

If you read further in section 124, the Lord tests the church and promises if they build the Nauvoo temple it will be made holy and the LDS will not be moved. If they fail, they receive cursings, wrath, indignation and judgments (vvs 42-48). How did that work out? Couple this with 3 Ne 16:9-11 it lays out how it will play out in our times, where the Gospel will be turned over to the Gentiles, who will reject it, then it will be given back to Israel.

This was all foretold. I don't understand why we assume the Mormon church is entitled to something it hasn't earned.
D&C 138:44
Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people;
The LDS Church is not the Kingdom of God. That Kingdom will be found in the establishment of Zion.

Godislove
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Godislove »

Lizzy60 wrote: January 30th, 2023, 7:55 am
Godislove wrote: January 30th, 2023, 7:50 am
gruden2.0 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:05 pm
Godislove wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:42 pm

Not the exact wording saying 'inseparately conjoined' but if the Lord is saying this then I would think they are inseparably joined together.
D&C 115:4
4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
That doesn't really prove Hamilton's statement. It simply means that in 1838 the Lord was willing to claim the church. There is no oath or covenant it will always remain so. Everything is predicated upon serving the Lord, no blessing is guaranteed without effort otherwise God is a respecter of persons. It's really the same mistake the Jews made, assuming that they were the chosen and would always be the chosen no matter what they did (or didn't do).

If you read further in section 124, the Lord tests the church and promises if they build the Nauvoo temple it will be made holy and the LDS will not be moved. If they fail, they receive cursings, wrath, indignation and judgments (vvs 42-48). How did that work out? Couple this with 3 Ne 16:9-11 it lays out how it will play out in our times, where the Gospel will be turned over to the Gentiles, who will reject it, then it will be given back to Israel.

This was all foretold. I don't understand why we assume the Mormon church is entitled to something it hasn't earned.
D&C 138:44
Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people;
The LDS Church is not the Kingdom of God. That Kingdom will be found in the establishment of Zion.
Partially true.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on the earth, but it is at present limited to an ecclesiastical kingdom. During the Millennium, the kingdom of God will be both political and ecclesiastical.

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Luke
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Luke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 30th, 2023, 6:29 am
Luke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:21 pm
Trucker wrote: January 29th, 2023, 1:56 pm That is appalling. But if he is right, then the Lord does want us to call ourselves "Mormons". And children of gay parents shouldn't be baptized. Adam is Heavenly Father. Blacks were less valiant in the preexistence and will be servants forever. The covid vaccine is a literal godsend.

All these things were official doctrines and/or policies of the church stated by the President of the Church. Many of them just in recent memory.
Adam is Heavenly Father and the blacks are cursed. I think God is ambivalent about the word “Mormon”. The other two are clearly false doctrines, although children of gay parents should disavow their parents’ lifestyle as a sin beforehand.
Have you asked God to know if Blacks are cursed? Like really asked God? The BoM would suggest otherwise. I honestly think you need to watch Rob Fotheringham’s video on Blacks. The church really messed up big time in their false interpretation of the scriptures.
The Book of Mormon is probably the number 1 advocate of the doctrine of curses being tied to race.

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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Luke wrote: January 30th, 2023, 10:35 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 30th, 2023, 6:29 am
Luke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:21 pm
Trucker wrote: January 29th, 2023, 1:56 pm That is appalling. But if he is right, then the Lord does want us to call ourselves "Mormons". And children of gay parents shouldn't be baptized. Adam is Heavenly Father. Blacks were less valiant in the preexistence and will be servants forever. The covid vaccine is a literal godsend.

All these things were official doctrines and/or policies of the church stated by the President of the Church. Many of them just in recent memory.
Adam is Heavenly Father and the blacks are cursed. I think God is ambivalent about the word “Mormon”. The other two are clearly false doctrines, although children of gay parents should disavow their parents’ lifestyle as a sin beforehand.
Have you asked God to know if Blacks are cursed? Like really asked God? The BoM would suggest otherwise. I honestly think you need to watch Rob Fotheringham’s video on Blacks. The church really messed up big time in their false interpretation of the scriptures.
The Book of Mormon is probably the number 1 advocate of the doctrine of curses being tied to race.
And how the curse was lifted... your ideology would curse everyone just because of the color of their skin. The Ammonites being a beautiful example of this. Do you think the Lord kept the priesthood from them?

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Luke
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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Luke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 30th, 2023, 10:42 am
Luke wrote: January 30th, 2023, 10:35 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 30th, 2023, 6:29 am
Luke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:21 pm

Adam is Heavenly Father and the blacks are cursed. I think God is ambivalent about the word “Mormon”. The other two are clearly false doctrines, although children of gay parents should disavow their parents’ lifestyle as a sin beforehand.
Have you asked God to know if Blacks are cursed? Like really asked God? The BoM would suggest otherwise. I honestly think you need to watch Rob Fotheringham’s video on Blacks. The church really messed up big time in their false interpretation of the scriptures.
The Book of Mormon is probably the number 1 advocate of the doctrine of curses being tied to race.
And how the curse was lifted... your ideology would curse everyone just because of the color of their skin. The Ammonites being a beautiful example of this. Do you think the Lord kept the priesthood from them?
Everyone gets cursed. The Gentiles have curses placed on them. But not all the curses are necessarily the same.

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Re: Elder Hamilton at BYU - replace the Savior with the name of the church

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Luke wrote: January 30th, 2023, 10:43 am Everyone gets cursed. The Gentiles have curses placed on them. But not all the curses are necessarily the same.
Yes, but all of those gentile curses come through unrighteousness and not heeding the word of the Lord. To place a curse upon a people as the LDS church did was wrong.

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