1 Maccabees

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Niemand
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1 Maccabees

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And upon the beasts [elephants] were there strong towers of wood, which covered every one of them, and were girt fast unto them with devices: there were also upon every one two and thirty strong men, that fought upon them, beside the Indian that ruled him. - 1 Maccabees 6:37:
This one comes with blurb. From the "Lesser Known Bible Story" thread
viewtopic.php?t=69006
Action packed bad**sery from start to finish! The Hebrew hammer smashes the armies of Alexander the Great... Cleopatra's g g g g grandmother is there!.
That time the Jews made an alliance with Sparta and determined that the Spartans were descendants of Abraham.[1 Macc. 7]
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Intro
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1 Maccabees is the outstanding historical book in the western Apocrypha. It has had huge cultural influence (see Handel's piece in replies), and possibly Tolkien (those massive elephant-like beasts... which you'll have seen in the films). Soccer fans may also be aware of the various clubs in the state of Israel called Maccabi. The book may not appear in Jewish Bibles but the history remains part of Jewish legend.

On another note, i have seen a Christian say it is a useful link between the Old and New Testament. Instead of the Romans appearing "out of nowhere", their presence is given a historical context. The Greeks invaded the area, and the Romans followed them in. The Greeks had attempted to make their empire Greek-speaking and pagan. Ironically 1 Maccabees is known mainly from the Greek language. The Septuagint (LXX) or Greek language Old Testament was also translated in this period, includes the book and is an influence on the New Testament. (There is internal evidence that the book was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic.)

During the Crusades, Pope Urban II and other church leaders used 1 Maccabees 2 to justify the concept of holy war against the Muslim kingdoms controlling Jerusalem.

Name
This book is normally called 1 Maccabees or First Maccabees. In the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox canon, there are three other books of Maccabees with varying relevance to the first one. There are also several Ethiopian books of Maccabees. The Jewish Encyclopedia claims that only the first is a reliable historical source.

The word "Maccabee" is believed to mean "hammer" since Judas/Judah and his family hammer the Greek pagans.

Wikipedia
According to Jewish folklore the name Maccabee is an acronym of the verse Mi kamokha ba'elim Adonai, "Who among the gods is like you, O Adonai?", the Maccabean battle-cry to motivate troops. (Exodus 15:11). Some scholars maintain that the name is a shortened form of the Hebrew maqqab-Yahu (from naqab, "to mark, to designate"), meaning "the one designated by Yahweh". Although originally the surname Maccabee was exclusive to Judah (his brothers had different surnames), at a later date it came to signify all the Hasmoneans who fought during the Maccabean Revolt.
Summary
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The Jerusalem Bible (Roman Catholic divides the book into five sections:

* Chapter 1: Introduction
* Chapter 2: Mattathias and the Holy War
* 3:1 to 9:22, under the leadership of Judas Maccabeus
* 9:23 to 12:53, under the leadership of Jonathan
* Chapters 13–16, under the leadership of Simon

The LDS Bible dictionary gives a good summary. I'll provide other information in the replies.
The First Book of the Maccabees. (See Maccabees.) The importance of this work for our knowledge of Jewish history in the 2nd century B.C. can hardly be surpassed. It recounts with great minuteness the whole narrative of the Maccabean movement from the accession of Antiochus Epiphanes (175) to the death of Simon (135). The persecution of Antiochus Epiphanes and the national rising led by the aged priest Mattathias, the heroic war of independence under the lead of Judas the Maccabee, and the recovery of religious freedom and political independence under Jonathan (160–143) and Simon (143–135) mark the chief divisions of the stirring period that the book chronicles.
https://www.abibleaday.com/bible-books/1-maccabees/
First Maccabees is labeled as an historical book, but it possesses both historical and literary value. It is a book of stoic faith.

First Maccabees gives details of the political scene and the military situation in the area of Israel circa the second century BC.

Though the initial focus is on the military leadership and bold exploits of Judas (Maccabeus), for whom the book is named, it also covers the feats of his four brothers: Eleazar, John, Jonathan, and Simon.
Relevance to the future
Judas Maccabeus was seen as a Messiah in his time although obviously he was not the one. Was he a foreshadowing of Christ like David, Moses or Abraham? Maybe. Arguable.

The Greek invasion and desecration of the Temple foreshadows the Roman destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. It may also be a foreshadowing of the Antichrist who is said to go to the Jerusalem Temple to commence his blasphemous mission.

Discussing the changes to the LDS endowment, forum regular Subcomandante writes:
Subcomandante wrote: January 6th, 2023, 3:51 pm When one reads Daniel we can see in history that this indeed did happen. A king came out of Greece and conquered Judah, then proceeded to profane the temple fortress, putting up an idol to Jupiter and sacrificing a pig on the altar. This is recorded in the annals of history and in the relations concerning the Maccabees that can be found in the Deuterocanon.

Said things will happen again in the near future, though the ruler that will come in will do similar things.
viewtopic.php?p=1337573&hilit=Maccabees#p1337573

Elizabeth, another forum regular quotes a passage describing Assideans, possibly the first mention of the Pharisees in the scriptures...
Elizabeth wrote: October 3rd, 2022, 1:22 pm The origin of the Pharisees is not fixed by undisputed authority as to either time or circumstance; though it is probably that the sect or party had a beginning in connection with the return of the Jews from the Babylonian captivity. New ideas and added conceptions of the meaning of the law were promulgated by Jews who had imbibed of the spirit of Babylon; and the resulting innovations were accepted by some and rejected by others. The name “Pharisee” does not occur in the Old Testament, nor in the Apocrypha, though it is probable that the Assideans mentioned in the books of the Maccabees were the original Pharisees. By derivation the name expresses the thought of separatism; the Pharisee, in the estimation of his class, was distinctively set apart from the common people, to whom he considered himself as truly superior as the Jews regarded themselves in contrast with other nations. Pharisees and scribes were one in all essentials of profession, and rabbinism was specifically their doctrine."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 6?lang=eng
viewtopic.php?p=1307794

==

1 Maccabees audiobook (KJV), 2 hours 36 minutes. Includes read-along text
--
This is part of my ongoing series on Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical works:

1 Esdras inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1343974

2 Esdras (the most relevant book in the Apocrypha?) inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1344302

2 Maccabees
viewtopic.php?p=1347024

3 Maccabees
viewtopic.php?t=69496

4 Maccabees
viewtopic.php?p=1348046

Book of Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy/Jeremiah
viewtopic.php?t=69433

Book of Tobit inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1341501

Apocryphal additions to Esther inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1343414

Bel and the Dragon (quoted in full, KJV; inc audiobook link)
viewtopic.php?t=69261

Prayer of Azarias and Hymn of the Three Children (quoted in full KJV, inc. audiobook link)
viewtopic.php?p=1341611

Book of Judith and the Book of Mormon, inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?t=69402

Book of Susanna inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?t=69386

Wisdom of Solomon
viewtopic.php?t=69469

Book of Sirach or Ecclesiasticus
viewtopic.php?t=69412

Prayer of Mannases (aka Mannaseh; quoted in full KJV, inc. audiobook link)
viewtopic.php?t=69263

Psalm 151 (quoted in full, NRSV)
viewtopic.php?t=63875

Epistle to the Laodiceans (NT, quoted in full Wycliffe's translation, )
viewtopic.php?t=64025

The Book of Odes - this is an Eastern Orthodox work of limited interest, but included for the sake of completeness.
viewtopic.php?t=69470

Outside the Western and Eastern Orthodox Canon...

The Ethiopian canon. This includes brief info on the books of Sinodos, Ethiopian Clement, Ethiopian Covenant, and Didascalia as well as a list of other works in the canon.
viewtopic.php?t=69540

The Book of Jubilees aka Leptogenesis or Little Genesis
viewtopic.php?p=1348962
Last edited by Niemand on February 3rd, 2023, 3:56 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Elizabeth
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: 1 Maccabees

Post by Elizabeth »

"And upon the beasts [elephants] were there strong towers of wood, which covered every one of them, and were girt fast unto them with devices: there were also upon every one two and thirty strong men, that fought upon them, beside the Indian that ruled him. - 1 Maccabees 6:37:"

Such a burden for the elephants.

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Niemand
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Re: 1 Maccabees

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And now a musical interlude. Handel's Judas Maccabeus is probably the most outstanding piece of art to come out of 1 Maccabees. The entire work is on YouTube if you want to look it up. Here are some excerpts (all of which are under ten minutes).

The overture (7/8 mins.)
Many people may know this tune as Thine Be the Glory, risen conquering son
I feel the Deity within
==
Hanukah/Chanukah
Hanukah is the Jewish commemoration of the Maccabean revolt. In the Book of John we read that Jesus himself celebrated it. This is not clear in the King James Version which calls it "the Feast of Dedication". This is from the New Living Translation, John chapter 10:
22 It was now winter, and Jesus was in Jerusalem at the time of Hanukkah, the Festival of Dedication. 23 He was in the Temple, walking through the section known as Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The people surrounded him and asked, “How long are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
What is the significance here? Judas Maccabeus was seen as a would-be messiah by some at the time and Jesus appears to have honoured the memory of the rebels.

A secular interpretation of the historical events
Last edited by Niemand on January 28th, 2023, 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Niemand
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Re: : 1 Maccabees

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Elizabeth wrote: January 28th, 2023, 3:40 am "And upon the beasts [elephants] were there strong towers of wood, which covered every one of them, and were girt fast unto them with devices: there were also upon every one two and thirty strong men, that fought upon them, beside the Indian that ruled him. - 1 Maccabees 6:37:"

Such a burden for the elephants.
Some people have questioned this passage on the basis of the numbers, i.e. either the elephants could not carry them or this is a mistranslation/legendary account. In scriptures numbers are sometimes mistranscribed so it is more likely in my view that the numbers are just wrong.

And now into nerd/geek territory. This seems to have been an influence on J.R.R. Tolkien and his "oliphaunts" which appear in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and the Peter Jackson version of Return of the King. These monster elephants are probably more on the right scale than the ones in 1 Maccabees. (The battle also reminds me of some of those early scenes in The Empire Strikes Back with the colossal machines.)

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Niemand
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Re: 1 Maccabees

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This description can be seen as relevant in the sense of watering down your values or giving in to pagan/ungodly influences.

https://www.gotquestions.org/first-seco ... abees.html

The first book portrays the effort by the Jews to regain their cultural and religious independence from Antiochus IV Epiphanes after his desecration of the Jewish temple... The first book, although written from a biased perspective, does not directly mention God or divine intervention. The second book has a more theological slant, advancing several doctrines followed by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches. The book of 1 Maccabees was written in Hebrew and later translated into Greek. Scholars believe that the author was a Palestinian Jew who was intimately familiar with the events described. The author opposed the Hellenization of the Jews and clearly supported and admired the Jewish revolutionaries led by Judas Maccabeus and his brothers.

In the second century BC, Judea existed between the Egyptian Ptolemaic Kingdom and the Syrian Seleucid Empire, kingdoms formed after the death of Alexander the Great. Judea fell under the control of the Seleucids in approximately 200 BC. During this time, many Jews began to adopt a Greek lifestyle and culture in order to gain economic and political influence. They avoided circumcision and advocated abolishing Jewish religious laws.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes became the ruler of the Seleucid Empire in 175 BC. He was inconsiderate of the views of the religious, traditional Jews in Israel. To Antiochus, the office of high priest was merely a local appointee within his realm, while to orthodox Jews the high priest was divinely appointed. Antiochus appointed a high priest named Jason, a Hellenized Jew, who promptly abolished the Jewish theocracy, followed by Menelaus, who had the rightful high priest, Onias, murdered. After Menelaus’ brother stole sacred articles from the temple, a civil war ensued between the Hellenized Jews and the religious Jews. Antiochus subsequently attacked Jerusalem, pillaged the temple, and killed or captured many of the women and children. He banned traditional Jewish religious practice, outlawing Jewish sacrifices, Sabbaths, feasts, and circumcision. He established altars to Greek gods upon which “unclean” animals were sacrificed. He desecrated the Jewish temple. Possession of Jewish Scriptures became a capital offence.

In a small, rural village called Modein, an elderly priest named Mattathias lived with his five sons—John, Simon, Judas, Eleazer, and Jonathan. Sometimes referred to as the Hasmoneans (a designation derived from Asmoneus, the name of one of their ancestors), this family more frequently has been called the Maccabeans (a nickname meaning “hammerer”). In 167 BC Antiochus sent some of his soldiers to Modein to compel the Jewish inhabitants to make sacrifices to the pagan gods. Mattathias, as a leader in the city, was commanded by the officers to be the first person to offer a sacrifice as an example to the rest of the people. He refused with a powerful speech (see 1 Maccabees 2:15–22).

Fearing violence against the people for Mattathias’ refusal, another Jew volunteered to offer the sacrifices to the pagan gods in the place of Mattathias, but Mattathias killed this Jewish man, as well as the soldiers of the king. He then destroyed the altar to the pagan gods, after which he, his sons, and a number of followers fled to the mountainous wilderness. These men formed a large, guerrilla warfare army and soon began to launch raids against the towns of the land, tearing down the pagan altars, killing the officials of Antiochus, and also executing those Jews who were worshiping the pagan gods.

Mattathias died in 166 BC, just as the revolt was gaining momentum, leaving his son Judas in charge of the rebel forces. Even though greatly outnumbered, Judas and his rebels defeated general after general in battle, winning decisive victories against overwhelming odds. The rebels even won a tremendous victory south of Mizpah against a combined army of 50,000 troops. The people of Israel gave Judas the nickname “Maccabeus” because of his success in “hammering” the enemy forces into the ground.

Antiochus, who had underestimated the scope of the revolt, now realized the serious nature of the rebellion in Israel. He dispatched Lysias, the commander-in-chief of the Seleucid army, along with 60,000 infantrymen and 5,000 cavalry, to utterly destroy the Jews. This vast army was additionally commanded by two generals serving under Lysias—Nicanor and Gorgias. This powerful army came against Judas, who fought with a force of only 10,000 poorly equipped rebels, in the town of Emmaus. He prayed to God for strength and deliverance (1 Maccabees 4:30–33), and God answered and they won a huge victory over the Seleucid army.

Subsequently, the Maccabees marched into Jerusalem, cleansed the temple, and resumed traditional Jewish religious practices. The festival of Hanukkah commemorates the cleansing and rededication of the Jewish temple. Judas’s brother Jonathan became the new high priest after the rededication of the temple and ultimately succeeded Judas as commander of the army. His brother Simon assumed control from 142 to 135 BC, followed by Simon’s son, John Hyrcanus. With the death of Simon, the last son of Mattathias, the Maccabean Revolt came to an end. The author concludes his narrative in 1 Maccabees with these events.

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Niemand
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Re: 1 Maccabees

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Latest Apocrypha
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References to "plates of brass" as writing materials in 1 Maccabees 14:48-49, a parallel to the Book of Mormon.
So they commanded that this writing should be put in tables of brass, and that they should be set up within the compass of the sanctuary in a conspicuous place; Also that the copies thereof should be laid up in the treasury, to the end that Simon and his sons might have them.
1 Macc. 14:18-19
They wrote unto him, in tables of brass, to renew the friendship and league which they had made with Judas and Jonathan his brethren: Which writings were read before the congregation at Jerusalem.
1 Macc 14:27
So then they wrote it in tables of brass, which they set upon pillars in mount Sion.
On a discussion about Hanukah
viewtopic.php?f=1&p=1056174#p1056174
Lexew1899 wrote: August 22nd, 2020, 9:13 am I always liked Judas Maccabeus. Allowing his people to enter into the temple again should be in our Bible, but is at least in the Apocrypha with First book of Maccabees and Second. I would say the miracle of the oil is actually second, in terms of importance to the story of Maccabeus. The fact that they recaptured the temple is more important. It became a forerunner for Christ's mission as well, since many things of his life centered around going to the temple, for one reason or another. So without a doubt it is of religious significance and should be celebrated, if you love Jesus Christ.
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Luke wrote: August 22nd, 2020, 4:25 am
Robin Hood wrote: August 22nd, 2020, 3:45 am It's not biblical, so no.
Must we be compelled in all things?

Besides:
  • John 10

    22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
    23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
    24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
    25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
    26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    30 I and my Father are one.
Jesus declares His deity on Hanukkah--the feast of the dedication (also known as the festival of lights). Why? Maybe because He is the light of the world...

Jesus is in Jerusalem at the Temple during Hanukkah. This is pretty significant and suggests that He celebrated it

Plus, it's in the Apocrypha (1 and 2 Maccabees), which the Lord approves of in D&C 91

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Niemand
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Re: 1 Maccabees

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This is not the only 1 Maccabees in town, there is also 1 Meqabyan – another lost book from the Ethiopian Canon, aka Ethiopian Maccabees. I've used the Ethiopian title to avoid confusion. This is not connected with this work directly although there are some points of contact.

viewtopic.php?p=1357418

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Niemand
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Re: 1 Maccabees

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As I mention above there are also a series of three other books called "Ethiopic Maccabees" or Meqabyan. I have linked 1 Meqabyan above. These books have an unclear relationship with the books of Maccabees in the western and Eastern Orthodox canons. I have written on the second two here:

2 Meqabyan (Ethiopian canon), - the return of Tsirutsaydan
viewtopic.php?t=69971

3 Meqabyan, a Question of Satan... another lost book
viewtopic.php?t=1367649

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Niemand
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Re: 1 Maccabees

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The timeline of the Maccabees and the Book of Daniel

viewtopic.php?f=1&p=1246007#p1246007
Oldemandalton wrote: March 5th, 2022, 2:56 pm In my article I identify 25 of the kings and other historical figures mention by the angel in Daniel chapter 11. I also identify 23 events from history.
Rest of Oldemandalton's post in italics.

Daniel 11:2 The Four Kings of Persia: Cambyses (530-522 BC), Bardiya (522 BC), Darius (522-486 BC), and Xerxes’ (485-465 BC) invasion of Greece.
Daniel 11:3-4 Alexander the Great ( 336-323 BC) and the four Diadochi: Ptolemy in Egypt, Cassander in Macedonia, Lysimachus in Thrace/Asia Minor, and Seleucus in Mesopotamia/Central Asia.
Daniel 11:5 Seleucus I (305–281 BC) and Ptolemy I (305/304 – 282 BC), Battle of Ipsus (301 BC)
Daniel 11:6 Ptolemy II Philadelphus (284-246 BC) and Antiochus II Theos (261-246 BC), Berenice, Ptolemy’s daughter. Laodice, Antiochus’ wife. Second Syrian War (260–253 BC)
Daniel 11:7-8 Third Syrian War (246–241 BC)
Daniel 11:9 Seleucus II Callinicus (246-225 BC), Ptolemy III (246-222 BC)
Daniel 11:10-12 The sons were: Seleucus III Ceraunus & Antiochus III the Great, Fourth Syrian War (219-217 BC) Battle of Raphia (217 BC)
Daniel 11:13 Antiochus III the Great Campaigns in Anatolia, Bactria, and India (216-203 BC)
Daniel 11:14 Ptolemy V Epiphanes (204-180 BC) and the Alexandrian Revolution (203 BC)
Daniel 11:15-16 Antiochus III the Great vs Ptolemy V Epiphanes in the Fifth Syrian War (202–195 BC) and the Battle of Panium.
Daniel 11:17 Antiochus III the Great forms and alliance with Egypt and gives his daughter, Cleopatra to Ptolemy V
Daniel 11:18-19 Antiochus the Great looses to the Roman General, Lucius Cornelius Scipio, at the battle of Magnesia ( 190/189 BC)
Daniel 11:20 Seleucus IV Philopater (187-175 BC) orders Heliodorus to loot the Temple in Jerusalem, see 2 Maccabees chapter 3.
Daniel 11:21-22 Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175-164 BC), prince of the covenant is Onias III
Daniel 11:23 Antiochus IV Epiphanes
Daniel 11:24-28 Sixth and Last Syrian War (170-168 BC) Antiochus IV Epiphanes, Ptolemy VI Philometor (180-145 BC), Siege of Alexandria.
Daniel 11:29-32 Antiochus's Second Invasion of Egypt (168 BC) Roman ambassador, Gaius Popillius Laenas, stops the invasion. Antiochus’s destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.
Daniel 11:33-35 The Maccabee Rebellion (167 BC)
Daniel 11:36 Antiochus IV Epiphanes
Daniel 11:37-39 Antiochus IV Epiphanes worships the Roman, not Greek god, Jupiter.
Daniel 11:40-43 Antiochus IV Epiphanes Military Campaigns (175-164 BC)
Daniel 11:44-45 Antiochus IV Epiphanes sacks Jerusalem (168 BC) and dies from disease in 164 BC.

For a more detailed explanation see: “The Prophecies of Daniel: Part 8. Chapters 10-12, The Wars of the Kings of the North and the South.” https://www.theharvestatearthsend.com/T ... art-8.html


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Niemand
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Re: 1 Maccabees

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JD21
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Re: 1 Maccabees

Post by JD21 »

I just finished re-reading 1st Maccabees yesterday. It is a terrific and very interesting story of a father and his 5 sons who led those of Israel who would not give in to the political leaders demands that they follow pagan worship. They fought against it for many years, successfully, but war was a major focus of their lives. They fought to be able to continue living in accordance with God's laws.

Their obedience to God in addition to their prayers and fasts for His help in these battles resulted in their receiving God's blessings and winning many battles in which they were vastly outnumbered. It was also interesting to read of the many who, at least initially, gave in to pagan worship rather than stand up for their beliefs. Deception was their greatest threat. The Maccabees changed the entire direction of where, as a society, they were headed. It's a story that is well worth reading.

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Niemand
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Re: 1 Maccabees

Post by Niemand »

JD21 wrote: September 18th, 2023, 12:47 am I just finished re-reading 1st Maccabees yesterday. It is a terrific and very interesting story of a father and his 5 sons who led those of Israel who would not give in to the political leaders demands that they follow pagan worship... The Maccabees changed the entire direction of where, as a society, they were headed. It's a story that is well worth reading.
A ringing endorsement, and one I agree with. It is relevant in this day and age. Many of these books are not a complete waste of time and are well worth a look.

Christmas is never mentioned in the New Testament but Hannukah is, and Hannukah is a celebration of this period. Jesus himself celebrated Hannukah according to the NT. It is curious that even though modern Jews still celebrate Hannukah and the Maccabees to this day, this book is not part of their canon.

SJR3t2 writes in "Scripture Study 2023-12-13 Maccabees":
viewtopic.php?p=1446780#p1446780
SJR3t2 wrote: December 14th, 2023, 2:06 pm Talked some about Tzitzits and the imagery that goes along with them including hips and how they are symbolic of agency. Book of Esther has problems. D&C on the Apocrypha. Started to read and expound 1 Maccabees 1. Read first part of Daniel 8 that goes with 1 Maccabees 1. Maccabees is showing fulfilment of some of Daniel's prophecies. Spoils and tithing. Some of Daniel's prophecies were translated into the LXX [Septuagint] before they happened. Maccabees has connections with Hanukkah. Circumcision was to be done during the time of the Maccabees but not now. PTSD is because of sins people were tricked into doing and they know it's wrong. We are to only to defend on our own land. We are a continuation of Rome. Constitution of the USA was SUFFERED and is not so good.
https://seekingyhwh.org/scripture-study/2023-12-13/
Latest Apocrypha etc
Will the real Book of Jasher please stand up? At least a dozen works are claimed to be the Book of Jasher, but did it ever exist in the first place?
viewtopic.php?p=1438746

New Age Bibles: Urantia, Oahspe, Kolbrin, Oera Linda, Crowley's Book of the Law, a Course in Miracles etc. These works, usually channelled, provide a very different take on spirituality yet are strangely similar to one another. How should we approach these new works and are they just demonic?
viewtopic.php?p=1433133

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