Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Church

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endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6429

Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by endlessQuestions »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:25 pm How did you get the email addresses of all the general authorities??
Due to some people's perception of my level of integrity, I was provided access to this information.

I'll just say this as well... I had the opportunity to use some information I was provided that I decided was too personal to use. I chose instead to simply use their official corporate emails, since the patterns that are involved there are actually a matter of public record, and could be deduced by anyone interested in going to the trouble.

Fair enough?

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pho·to·syn·the·sis
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Posts: 683
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by pho·to·syn·the·sis »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:48 pm
pho·to·syn·the·sis wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:44 pm
Ado wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pm I found this the other day while researching more about skull and bones. I think it's a new post by FAIR because I hadn't seen it before. It didn't do much to settle my feelings on the matter but does prove that they know about awareness of some of these hidden works being spread online.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... _M._Nelson
Interesting. Why FAIR established a growing review for Skull & Bones.
Please forgive my language, but what a steaming pile of crap that answer is.

I mean, seriously. That's like F- quality work, right there.

Should we contact them and see if we can help them update their page with the "new information" that's now available?

Yes, I think we should.

Thanks for surfacing this, and sorry I missed it earlier.

It just so happens I was looking at another interesting FAIR article when this popped up.

Looks like FAIR was clear that Brigham was sporting Masonic pins in what I think have to be post-martyrdom photos, but failed to think about the fact that the Masons had BANNED Mormons, to the point of not allowing a Lodge in Utah, and that Brigham was out claiming that Masons had martyred "Brother Joseph".

Kind of weird, don't you think? I mean, if somebody murdered my leader, I wouldn't go around decades later sporting their merch, right?

Right?
I agree. I had a typo. It seemed the FAIR article gave a “glowing review” for Skull & Bones, instead of simply answering the question. The worst type of apologetic work.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6429

Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by endlessQuestions »

pho·to·syn·the·sis wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:52 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:48 pm
pho·to·syn·the·sis wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:44 pm
Ado wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pm I found this the other day while researching more about skull and bones. I think it's a new post by FAIR because I hadn't seen it before. It didn't do much to settle my feelings on the matter but does prove that they know about awareness of some of these hidden works being spread online.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... _M._Nelson
Interesting. Why FAIR established a growing review for Skull & Bones.
Please forgive my language, but what a steaming pile of crap that answer is.

I mean, seriously. That's like F- quality work, right there.

Should we contact them and see if we can help them update their page with the "new information" that's now available?

Yes, I think we should.

Thanks for surfacing this, and sorry I missed it earlier.

It just so happens I was looking at another interesting FAIR article when this popped up.

Looks like FAIR was clear that Brigham was sporting Masonic pins in what I think have to be post-martyrdom photos, but failed to think about the fact that the Masons had BANNED Mormons, to the point of not allowing a Lodge in Utah, and that Brigham was out claiming that Masons had martyred "Brother Joseph".

Kind of weird, don't you think? I mean, if somebody murdered my leader, I wouldn't go around decades later sporting their merch, right?

Right?
I agree. I had a typo. It seemed the FAIR article gave a “glowing review” for Skull & Bones, instead of simply answering the question. The worst type of apologetic work.
Have you seen my conversation with their volunteer? It's all rather surreal. I had no idea this is where they came from. I'm trying to get the President to let me know if this is the position of the organization, or whether they have some rogue volunteer who is speaking in what might be a rather ill-advised manner.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6429

Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by endlessQuestions »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:16 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:07 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 3:22 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:58 pm

Okay, sent the following message to the President of FAIR:

"Scott,

I'm not sure how involved you are in looking at each answer your organization provides, but the page you have up regarding Russell M. Nelson's involvement with Skull and Bones is very poorly done.

There's a group of people who have intensively researched this topic, and we could provide you with a lot of primary source documents that would more honestly and thoroughly answer the question posed. Would you like us to send you that material?

Thanks for all you do, and I look forward to hearing from you soon....

Justin Riggs
720-505-1323
juriggs@gmail.com"

I also sent a similar message to their general inbox. I'll let you know what I hear back.
Well, that was fast. Got word back from FAIR. They said they'd be happy to look at information that could improve their answer:

<redacted, so as to not doxx anyone>
Hi, Justin. We're always open to improvement. I'd be interested in seeing your research on this.

Thanks,
<redacted>
FAIR Volunteer (opinions given are my own and not necessarily those of FAIR or the Church)

Here's how I responded:

"Great.

Do you need it in a nice, clean package, or are you guys willing to wade through some material and pick out what you think is relevant?

The evidence largely exists on two or three threads on a discussion forum. It consists of links to primary source documents like President Nelson's autobiography, the Utonian yearbooks that have President Nelson's Skull and Bones and Owl and Key pictures, and other Utonian yearbook pictures that show that Skull and Bones isn't and wasn't just some "honors association". There are pictures of Skull and Bones members in drag, in black face, and a quote saying something to the effect of "Skull and Bones has taught us to believe in infanticide".

I should mention, many of the people doing this research are very upset, so you'll have to be prepared to wade through that if you want to see everything available.

I'm more curious than upset, so if you'd like me to curate it, I can do that and get back to you in the next few days.

I should also tell you, this is a much bigger problem than just President Nelson. We've identified probably close to a hundred prominent Church members, businessmen, politicians, academics, and leaders that joined secret societies despite their being clear counsel from the prophet's of their day to avoid such affiliations. We've also shown that language regarding secret societies was removed from the General Handbook right at the time President Nelson became an apostle, and then the temple questions were changed to be more "secret society friendly" right after President Nelson became President of the Church.

Let me know how you'd like to proceed, and we'll work to help you improve your answer. Thanks for being willing to take a look at what's out there and improve the quality of the answers on your site. I appreciate that spirit of inquiry very much!

Justin

I probably should have said, "if you want me to curate it, I'll work with the others and pull it together", because I want and will need y'alls help on this. Sorry... things are moving awfully fast right now, and I'm making some mistakes I normally wouldn't. Forgive me for that.
Holy cow.

Well, that got awkward fast.

Here was the FAIR volunteers response to me:

"I would be interested in perusing whatever you can point me to. However, you should be aware that we are interested in debunking the idea that this was an evil secret society, rather than accepting it."

So I wrote back:

"Hmmm, well that's an interesting position to take.

Are you not interested in following the evidence to its logical conclusion and presenting the facts (for both sides of the argument)? Because I think it might be hard to debunk the idea that it was not an evil, secret society when the people involved in it show up to interviews in black robes and white masks in an effort to conceal their identity, and you see what the group has been up to when you go through the Utonian archives.

I'm also not sure I want to spend time and effort pulling things together just to have it rejected because you've presupposed an outcome. But I'd be happy to have you look at what's out there, present it as it stands in the historical record, and then argue that they were just joking around.

In fact, the easiest thing would probably be for you to do this. Go to this link:

https://collections.lib.utah.edu/search ... um_utonian

It's all the Utonians. There's some debate as to when Skull and Bones started at the University of Utah, so you'll have to start around 1905, but go through each year and just search for Skull and Bones.

Then post that new evidence on the site, and let me know, and I'll take a look and see if you missed anything."

The President got back to me, too. I think I'm going to check with him and see if this is the official position of the organization.
Email to the President of FAIR:

Actually, it looks like we're caught in a crossfire of messages here.
This is what <redactd FAIR volunteer> had to say:

"I would be interested in perusing whatever you can point me to. However, you should be aware that we are interested in debunking the idea that this was an evil secret society, rather than accepting it"

May I ask, is that the official FAIR position on this? Because I thought we were a religion that defined truth as "things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come", so it was a bit startling to see Trevor's response in black and white on my screen. I know FAIR is an apologetics site, but are they willing to ignore historical evidence that doesn't support their presupposed conclusions?

Perhaps you should touch base with him so we're all on the same page here. I did tell him where your team can go to do a large amount of research that will show the true nature of Skull and Bones on the University of Utah campus.

And I also might point out that the very first Google results regarding this topic show a group of people who came to an interview dressed in black robes and wearing masks to conceal their identities. Does that not seem an important detail to include in your research?

Thanks, and I'll look forward to receiving your response.

Justin
Okay, so our volunteer friend at FAIR wants to keep talking. He wrote:

"So you're implying that Pres. Nelson is a Gadianton Robber and we're part of the coverup?

I was inducted into the Order of the Arrow when I was a Boy Scout. It is a "secret society" by your definition. But it is entirely honorable and nothing more than a service club.

The clubs that Pres. Nelson participated in were probably more playful than the Order of the Arrow, but quite unlikely to have been any more sinister.

I have seen enough conspiracy theories and anti-Mormon rumors over the years that it's generally pretty easy to recognize things for what they really are. And this easily fits into that category.

Sorry we won't be changing our wiki to go against our mission, but it's certainly not because we're ignoring evidence."

So I responded:

Okay, <redacted>, but please remember that I've told you that this conversation is in the public domain, okay? If you want to keep talking, let's keep talking, as I'm always open to following the Savior's example of reasoning with one another.

Are you aware of President Nelson's quote in his autobiography where he admits that he feels "ambivalent" about his association with the groups he affiliated with?

What does the word "ambivalent" mean to you? I would recommend using a dictionary, because that's kind of how I roll.

It's not exactly what I'd call repentance, but it might indicate that there were things going on that President Nelson recognized as inappropriate.

This would make even more sense if you were to look at Lorenzo Snow and the First Presidency's official position on young men in particular who were joining themselves to these types of groups. This would have been the official church position at the time that President Nelson made his choices (As far as I can discern), so we literally have our current prophet disregarding the official position of the church and NOT "following the prophet" that he had, I think we can safely assume, sustained.

Would you be willing to at least put the quote from President Nelson regarding his ambivalence on your wiki? And maybe the definition of the word ambivalence? And for extra credit, you could compare the word ambivalent with repentant. That would be cool!

Also, I need to be extremely clear with you. I do not take kindly to people who try to use logical fallacies and sophistry to try to put words into my mouth. I in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM am implying that President Nelson is a Gadianton Robber, nor that you and the organization you represent are involved in any kind of "cover up".

If you're going to be involved in apologetics, I would say you need to be much, much more careful about how you have these conversations, as it's rather unbecoming to use the tactics we read of in the Book of Mormon to try to paint me as holding a position that the record clearly shows I don't hold. And for the record, I have not drawn ANY final conclusions regarding this topic. Indeed, I've been researching it for YEARS and am doing everything I can to give these men and women the benefit of the doubt. It's an important skill to learn - the ability to draw intermediate conclusions as you find new evidence, without jumping to the conclusion that the appearance of wrongdoing equates to the presence of wrongdoing.

Talk to you again soon???

Justin

###############

What world am I in?

I've defended these people before, and used them as a resource.

Won't be making that mistake again...
Last edited by endlessQuestions on January 27th, 2023, 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6429

Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by endlessQuestions »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 5:10 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:16 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:07 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 3:22 pm

Well, that was fast. Got word back from FAIR. They said they'd be happy to look at information that could improve their answer:

<redacted, so as to not doxx anyone>
Hi, Justin. We're always open to improvement. I'd be interested in seeing your research on this.

Thanks,
<redacted>
FAIR Volunteer (opinions given are my own and not necessarily those of FAIR or the Church)

Here's how I responded:

"Great.

Do you need it in a nice, clean package, or are you guys willing to wade through some material and pick out what you think is relevant?

The evidence largely exists on two or three threads on a discussion forum. It consists of links to primary source documents like President Nelson's autobiography, the Utonian yearbooks that have President Nelson's Skull and Bones and Owl and Key pictures, and other Utonian yearbook pictures that show that Skull and Bones isn't and wasn't just some "honors association". There are pictures of Skull and Bones members in drag, in black face, and a quote saying something to the effect of "Skull and Bones has taught us to believe in infanticide".

I should mention, many of the people doing this research are very upset, so you'll have to be prepared to wade through that if you want to see everything available.

I'm more curious than upset, so if you'd like me to curate it, I can do that and get back to you in the next few days.

I should also tell you, this is a much bigger problem than just President Nelson. We've identified probably close to a hundred prominent Church members, businessmen, politicians, academics, and leaders that joined secret societies despite their being clear counsel from the prophet's of their day to avoid such affiliations. We've also shown that language regarding secret societies was removed from the General Handbook right at the time President Nelson became an apostle, and then the temple questions were changed to be more "secret society friendly" right after President Nelson became President of the Church.

Let me know how you'd like to proceed, and we'll work to help you improve your answer. Thanks for being willing to take a look at what's out there and improve the quality of the answers on your site. I appreciate that spirit of inquiry very much!

Justin

I probably should have said, "if you want me to curate it, I'll work with the others and pull it together", because I want and will need y'alls help on this. Sorry... things are moving awfully fast right now, and I'm making some mistakes I normally wouldn't. Forgive me for that.
Holy cow.

Well, that got awkward fast.

Here was the FAIR volunteers response to me:

"I would be interested in perusing whatever you can point me to. However, you should be aware that we are interested in debunking the idea that this was an evil secret society, rather than accepting it."

So I wrote back:

"Hmmm, well that's an interesting position to take.

Are you not interested in following the evidence to its logical conclusion and presenting the facts (for both sides of the argument)? Because I think it might be hard to debunk the idea that it was not an evil, secret society when the people involved in it show up to interviews in black robes and white masks in an effort to conceal their identity, and you see what the group has been up to when you go through the Utonian archives.

I'm also not sure I want to spend time and effort pulling things together just to have it rejected because you've presupposed an outcome. But I'd be happy to have you look at what's out there, present it as it stands in the historical record, and then argue that they were just joking around.

In fact, the easiest thing would probably be for you to do this. Go to this link:

https://collections.lib.utah.edu/search ... um_utonian

It's all the Utonians. There's some debate as to when Skull and Bones started at the University of Utah, so you'll have to start around 1905, but go through each year and just search for Skull and Bones.

Then post that new evidence on the site, and let me know, and I'll take a look and see if you missed anything."

The President got back to me, too. I think I'm going to check with him and see if this is the official position of the organization.
Email to the President of FAIR:

Actually, it looks like we're caught in a crossfire of messages here.
This is what <redactd FAIR volunteer> had to say:

"I would be interested in perusing whatever you can point me to. However, you should be aware that we are interested in debunking the idea that this was an evil secret society, rather than accepting it"

May I ask, is that the official FAIR position on this? Because I thought we were a religion that defined truth as "things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come", so it was a bit startling to see Trevor's response in black and white on my screen. I know FAIR is an apologetics site, but are they willing to ignore historical evidence that doesn't support their presupposed conclusions?

Perhaps you should touch base with him so we're all on the same page here. I did tell him where your team can go to do a large amount of research that will show the true nature of Skull and Bones on the University of Utah campus.

And I also might point out that the very first Google results regarding this topic show a group of people who came to an interview dressed in black robes and wearing masks to conceal their identities. Does that not seem an important detail to include in your research?

Thanks, and I'll look forward to receiving your response.

Justin
Okay, so our volunteer friend at FAIR wants to keep talking. He wrote:

"So you're implying that Pres. Nelson is a Gadianton Robber and we're part of the coverup?

I was inducted into the Order of the Arrow when I was a Boy Scout. It is a "secret society" by your definition. But it is entirely honorable and nothing more than a service club.

The clubs that Pres. Nelson participated in were probably more playful than the Order of the Arrow, but quite unlikely to have been any more sinister.

I have seen enough conspiracy theories and anti-Mormon rumors over the years that it's generally pretty easy to recognize things for what they really are. And this easily fits into that category.

Sorry we won't be changing our wiki to go against our mission, but it's certainly not because we're ignoring evidence."

So I responded:

Okay, <redacted>, but please remember that I've told you that this conversation is in the public domain, okay? If you want to keep talking, let's keep talking, as I'm always open to following the Savior's example of reasoning with one another.

Are you aware of President Nelson's quote in his autobiography where he admits that he feels "ambivalent" about his association with the groups he affiliated with?

What does the word "ambivalent" mean to you? I would recommend using a dictionary, because that's kind of how I roll.

It's not exactly what I'd call repentance, but it might indicate that there were things going on that President Nelson recognized as inappropriate.

This would make even more sense if you were to look at Lorenzo Snow and the First Presidency's official position on young men in particular who were joining themselves to these types of groups. This would have been the official church position at the time that President Nelson made his choices (As far as I can discern), so we literally have our current prophet disregarding the official position of the church and NOT "following the prophet" that he had, I think we can safely assume, sustained.

Would you be willing to at least put the quote from President Nelson regarding his ambivalence on your wiki? And maybe the definition of the word ambivalence? And for extra credit, you could compare the word ambivalent with repentant. That would be cool!

Also, I need to be extremely clear with you. I do not take kindly to people who try to use logical fallacies and sophistry to try to put words into my mouth. I in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM am implying that President Nelson is a Gadianton Robber, nor that you and the organization you represent are involved in any kind of "cover up".

If you're going to be involved in apologetics, I would say you need to be much, much more careful about how you have these conversations, as it's rather unbecoming to use the tactics we read of in the Book of Mormon to try to paint me as holding a position that the record clearly shows I don't hold. And for the record, I have not drawn ANY final conclusions regarding this topic. Indeed, I've been researching it for YEARS and am doing everything I can to give these men and women the benefit of the doubt. It's an important skill to learn - the ability to draw intermediate conclusions as you find new evidence, without jumping to the conclusion that the appearance of wrongdoing equates to the presence of wrongdoing.

Talk to you again soon???

Justin

###############

What world am I in?

I've defended these people before, and used them as a resource.

Won't be making that mistake again...
I'm really trying to get FAIR on the record here, because I have to believe we have a rogue volunteer at work. Here's what I just wrote the President of FAIR:

Scott,
Truly, I would get ahold of <redacted> and ask him to stop talking.

I've told him our conversation is in the public record, and as far as I can tell right now, he's acting as an official representative of your organization.

I've used your organization's research extensively over the years.

I've defended the organization.

But if what <redacted> is saying is actually the official position of the FAIR, I can promise you, I will NEVER trust a single word that goes up on that wiki and I will do EVERYTHING in my power to make sure that researchers get to see this story so they can determine for themselves whether you're a credible source of information or not.

Now is not the time to shrink away and go silent. Now is the time to step up and lead your organization.

If <redacted> continues to write to me, I'm going to continue to post his words in the public sphere (although I have redacted his name in order to protect his identity).

Ado
captain of 100
Posts: 403

Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Ado »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 5:10 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:16 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:07 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 3:22 pm

Well, that was fast. Got word back from FAIR. They said they'd be happy to look at information that could improve their answer:

<redacted, so as to not doxx anyone>
Hi, Justin. We're always open to improvement. I'd be interested in seeing your research on this.

Thanks,
<redacted>
FAIR Volunteer (opinions given are my own and not necessarily those of FAIR or the Church)

Here's how I responded:

"Great.

Do you need it in a nice, clean package, or are you guys willing to wade through some material and pick out what you think is relevant?

The evidence largely exists on two or three threads on a discussion forum. It consists of links to primary source documents like President Nelson's autobiography, the Utonian yearbooks that have President Nelson's Skull and Bones and Owl and Key pictures, and other Utonian yearbook pictures that show that Skull and Bones isn't and wasn't just some "honors association". There are pictures of Skull and Bones members in drag, in black face, and a quote saying something to the effect of "Skull and Bones has taught us to believe in infanticide".

I should mention, many of the people doing this research are very upset, so you'll have to be prepared to wade through that if you want to see everything available.

I'm more curious than upset, so if you'd like me to curate it, I can do that and get back to you in the next few days.

I should also tell you, this is a much bigger problem than just President Nelson. We've identified probably close to a hundred prominent Church members, businessmen, politicians, academics, and leaders that joined secret societies despite their being clear counsel from the prophet's of their day to avoid such affiliations. We've also shown that language regarding secret societies was removed from the General Handbook right at the time President Nelson became an apostle, and then the temple questions were changed to be more "secret society friendly" right after President Nelson became President of the Church.

Let me know how you'd like to proceed, and we'll work to help you improve your answer. Thanks for being willing to take a look at what's out there and improve the quality of the answers on your site. I appreciate that spirit of inquiry very much!

Justin

I probably should have said, "if you want me to curate it, I'll work with the others and pull it together", because I want and will need y'alls help on this. Sorry... things are moving awfully fast right now, and I'm making some mistakes I normally wouldn't. Forgive me for that.
Holy cow.

Well, that got awkward fast.

Here was the FAIR volunteers response to me:

"I would be interested in perusing whatever you can point me to. However, you should be aware that we are interested in debunking the idea that this was an evil secret society, rather than accepting it."

So I wrote back:

"Hmmm, well that's an interesting position to take.

Are you not interested in following the evidence to its logical conclusion and presenting the facts (for both sides of the argument)? Because I think it might be hard to debunk the idea that it was not an evil, secret society when the people involved in it show up to interviews in black robes and white masks in an effort to conceal their identity, and you see what the group has been up to when you go through the Utonian archives.

I'm also not sure I want to spend time and effort pulling things together just to have it rejected because you've presupposed an outcome. But I'd be happy to have you look at what's out there, present it as it stands in the historical record, and then argue that they were just joking around.

In fact, the easiest thing would probably be for you to do this. Go to this link:

https://collections.lib.utah.edu/search ... um_utonian

It's all the Utonians. There's some debate as to when Skull and Bones started at the University of Utah, so you'll have to start around 1905, but go through each year and just search for Skull and Bones.

Then post that new evidence on the site, and let me know, and I'll take a look and see if you missed anything."

The President got back to me, too. I think I'm going to check with him and see if this is the official position of the organization.
Email to the President of FAIR:

Actually, it looks like we're caught in a crossfire of messages here.
This is what <redactd FAIR volunteer> had to say:

"I would be interested in perusing whatever you can point me to. However, you should be aware that we are interested in debunking the idea that this was an evil secret society, rather than accepting it"

May I ask, is that the official FAIR position on this? Because I thought we were a religion that defined truth as "things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come", so it was a bit startling to see Trevor's response in black and white on my screen. I know FAIR is an apologetics site, but are they willing to ignore historical evidence that doesn't support their presupposed conclusions?

Perhaps you should touch base with him so we're all on the same page here. I did tell him where your team can go to do a large amount of research that will show the true nature of Skull and Bones on the University of Utah campus.

And I also might point out that the very first Google results regarding this topic show a group of people who came to an interview dressed in black robes and wearing masks to conceal their identities. Does that not seem an important detail to include in your research?

Thanks, and I'll look forward to receiving your response.

Justin
Okay, so our volunteer friend at FAIR wants to keep talking. He wrote:

"So you're implying that Pres. Nelson is a Gadianton Robber and we're part of the coverup?

I was inducted into the Order of the Arrow when I was a Boy Scout. It is a "secret society" by your definition. But it is entirely honorable and nothing more than a service club.

The clubs that Pres. Nelson participated in were probably more playful than the Order of the Arrow, but quite unlikely to have been any more sinister.

I have seen enough conspiracy theories and anti-Mormon rumors over the years that it's generally pretty easy to recognize things for what they really are. And this easily fits into that category.

Sorry we won't be changing our wiki to go against our mission, but it's certainly not because we're ignoring evidence."

So I responded:

Okay, <redacted>, but please remember that I've told you that this conversation is in the public domain, okay? If you want to keep talking, let's keep talking, as I'm always open to following the Savior's example of reasoning with one another.

Are you aware of President Nelson's quote in his autobiography where he admits that he feels "ambivalent" about his association with the groups he affiliated with?

What does the word "ambivalent" mean to you? I would recommend using a dictionary, because that's kind of how I roll.

It's not exactly what I'd call repentance, but it might indicate that there were things going on that President Nelson recognized as inappropriate.

This would make even more sense if you were to look at Lorenzo Snow and the First Presidency's official position on young men in particular who were joining themselves to these types of groups. This would have been the official church position at the time that President Nelson made his choices (As far as I can discern), so we literally have our current prophet disregarding the official position of the church and NOT "following the prophet" that he had, I think we can safely assume, sustained.

Would you be willing to at least put the quote from President Nelson regarding his ambivalence on your wiki? And maybe the definition of the word ambivalence? And for extra credit, you could compare the word ambivalent with repentant. That would be cool!

Also, I need to be extremely clear with you. I do not take kindly to people who try to use logical fallacies and sophistry to try to put words into my mouth. I in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM am implying that President Nelson is a Gadianton Robber, nor that you and the organization you represent are involved in any kind of "cover up".

If you're going to be involved in apologetics, I would say you need to be much, much more careful about how you have these conversations, as it's rather unbecoming to use the tactics we read of in the Book of Mormon to try to paint me as holding a position that the record clearly shows I don't hold. And for the record, I have not drawn ANY final conclusions regarding this topic. Indeed, I've been researching it for YEARS and am doing everything I can to give these men and women the benefit of the doubt. It's an important skill to learn - the ability to draw intermediate conclusions as you find new evidence, without jumping to the conclusion that the appearance of wrongdoing equates to the presence of wrongdoing.

Talk to you again soon???

Justin

###############

What world am I in?

I've defended these people before, and used them as a resource.

Won't be making that mistake again...
Do you have that quote on hand where President Nelson says he feels ambivalent about his associations with those secret groups? I'd love to see that.

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Ado wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pm I found this the other day while researching more about skull and bones. I think it's a new post by FAIR because I hadn't seen it before. It didn't do much to settle my feelings on the matter but does prove that they know about awareness of some of these hidden works being spread online.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... _M._Nelson
There appears to be a timestamp in the source code to suggest FAIR published this article in January 2023.

EDIT: Nope, that was just the date my computer cached the page. I'm not sure when this was published.
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 27th, 2023, 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

tmac wrote: January 27th, 2023, 7:58 am EQ, I’m curious what you think will come of this letter? If you were to envision the most likely outcome/scenario, what would it be?

In the other thread I have talked about my experiences attempting to approach my local leaders, but I also have personal experience attempting to approach higher echelons as well, in a unique situation involving what seemed to be a matter of some import to the the Church at the time.

We call that whole experience “Attempting to approach the Impenetrable Fortress.”

I hope your attempts go better than ours did.
When I wrote my 18 page letter to the church they ignored me, then I wrote and asked them to respond, then they (via local leadership) mocked me and let me know they didn't have time for me.

I wager they will only respond if the public knows and is waiting for a response with you. OR you'll be tapped for excommunication for writing it.

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Ado »

I did some searching through the University of Utah Utonian yearbooks. Russell Nelson was never included in any list of Skull and Bones or Owl and Key, that I could find anyways... So I'm not sure if he was scrubbed from it, or if I'm missing something, or what. I did find him listed in other groups, the Kappa Gamma (national music fraternity), Phi Eta Sigma (national scholastic fraternity), and president of Sigma Chi. Why can't I find him included in skull and bones or owl and key? I did find Robert Hales listed explicitly as a member of Skull and Bones.
Through my searching, I found these quotes throughout every mention of skull and bones. The last quote is the most interesting I could find, showing that the members dressed up as "happy hooligans, nurse girls, and French dudes" in an effort to entertain and unite "junior fellows in a common spirit..."
It all sounds immature and goofy, but haven't found any evidence yet of anything satanic. (Aside from the creepy black robes and white masks in the recent news story). I couldn't find anywhere in the yearbooks that Skull and Bones is also called Brotherhood of Death at the UofU. On the surface, they advertise it as something harmless and similar to a high school student council. Maybe it's a very washed down version of Yale's Skull and Bones? Maybe it really is just a fraternity, and there's no there there. I don't know. I spent a few hours on this research:

“Skull and Bones was founded at Yale University in 1882, and on May 18, 1909, eleven men of the Junior Class of the University of Utah became charter members of the Society at this school. According to the preamble to the Society’s constitution, its purpose is to ‘establish a bond of fellowship, to insure an everlasting feeling of friendship among our members, to create and encourage a better college spirit and to further promote the interests of the Junior Class.’ Most prestigious of the honor societies on campus, Skull and Bones boasts administrators and a United States Ambassador.” - 1967 Utonian V.2, page 256

“Skull and Bones honorary society was the highest honor a junior man could receive… members were chosen for their high character, over-all scholarship and activities in ASUU functions…” 1954 Utonian, page 221

“ Prospective members submitted applications containing their qualifications. These were evaluated, and the men considered most outstanding in academic endeavors and University activities were accepted for membership… The organization worked to promote enthusiasm for University school spirit.” - 1965 Utonian, page 279

“The launching of the Skull and Bones Society each year calls forth an abundance of cleverness and originality in characterization. And each year the chosen Juniors, for a day, cast aside all dignity, all mock pride, all restraint, to tread the boards as entertainers. On December 8, a motley crowd, ranging in respectability from reverent patent medicine venders and washerwomen to knickerbockered lads and ‘muddied’ girls, graced the boulevard with their stuns, and interjected forgivable nonsense throughout Student Body meeting. Laughter and gay applause greeted the appearance of football heroes posing as Happy Hooligans, nurse girls, and French dudes; of debaters and engineers garbed “Wie Deutchschen Knaben” and giddy school-maidens, well supplied with the appropriate stein and pipe, and gum. If good natured compliance in initiation counts for the attainment of the society’s purpose, that of uniting Junior fellows in a common spirit regardless of fraternity ties and sympathies, the 1913 Skull and Bones achieved success.” 1913 Utonian, page 211

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Ado »

I just found a few more interesting quotes. They do call themselves a secret society, or a secret fraternity. Not sure what makes it secret. It's that "secret" part that bothers me.

“A Bunch of Juniors (principally men) which was organized towards the close of school. The purpose of the club is to ‘advance the general interest of the school in general and the Junior class in particular, to break up antagonism between fraternities and between frat men and those who do not belong to fraternities. The society is a secret one and their ways are deep and mysterious. The members propose to establish such an organization in the class of 1911 next year with the hopes that it may live in the Junior class forevermore.” 1910 Utonian Junior year book, page 182

“Skull and Bones is distinguished as the oldest nationally chartered honorary society on the University campus. Founded in 1909 as a secret fraternity for select junior class men, Skull and Bones includes among its ranks some of the most outstanding of Utah alums. Today the group is inactive, but selection to membership still denotes the highest honor for junior men.” - 1968 Utonian, page 191

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Subcomandante »

Bashing the prophet for having taken part in a college fraternity group back in the 40s that just happens to have the same name as another, far more sinister college fraternity group in a college back east?

That's pretty low IMO.

That's about as bad as a leftist that looks up what a person said in the 1990s about gays then tries to use it as a political weapon in 2023. In fact it is worse.

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by BeNotDeceived »

tmac wrote: January 27th, 2023, 7:58 am EQ, I’m curious what you think will come of this letter? If you were to envision the most likely outcome/scenario, what would it be?

In the other thread I have talked about my experiences attempting to approach my local leaders, but I also have personal experience attempting to approach higher echelons as well, in a unique situation involving what seemed to be a matter of some import to the the Church at the time.

We call that whole experience “Attempting to approach the Impenetrable Fortress.”

I hope your attempts go better than ours did.

Higher echelons of the church are nothing more than a figment of a collective imagination.

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Atrasado »

The Church beauracracy is now put into the impossible position of defending Skull and Bones. It's a lighthearted glee club! We sing silly songs and drink lemonade from Geronimo's skull. We raise funds for greenbelts and tutor refuge children. It's due to the exceptional character of our initiates that so many of them end up running for president. It's only secret because we don't want to brag about all of our good works.

So the Brotherhood of Death is "‘one big happy family’ comprised of ‘light and fun interaction’"? How does that work with the invisible force they talked about? Whoever wrote that really has a low opinion of the Church membership's intelligence. I wish I could say they were wrong.

Here's the argument in emojis.
🤪🎉🤡🤥 | 🙄🤨😡🤯

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Atrasado »

Subcomandante wrote: January 27th, 2023, 10:45 pm Bashing the prophet for having taken part in a college fraternity group back in the 40s that just happens to have the same name as another, far more sinister college fraternity group in a college back east?

That's pretty low IMO.

That's about as bad as a leftist that looks up what a person said in the 1990s about gays then tries to use it as a political weapon in 2023. In fact it is worse.
John Kerry joined Skull and Bones in 1964 and still wouldn't talk about it in 2004 because it's all limericks, dirty nicknames, and good deeds, right? No. It's self-described as a secret society and its real name is the Brotherhood of Death. (see Isaiah 28 for a discussion on Ephraim having an agreement with death) The Utah Chapter of the Brotherhood of Death (It doesn't just share a name, it's the same organization as the Yale chapter, and you can look that up) held interviews publicly wearing hoods and masks so that they couldn't be identified. Because it's just a secret club where they drink apple juice and sing Disney songs.

To me it seems that a high level Church leader could belong to Al-Qaeda and the Cosa Nostra and attend spirit cooking meetings with Marina Abramovich and the Podesta brothers and openly brag about it and you would still run into a burning building to protect them, wouldn't you? I sure hope I'm wrong. What would it take before you would start to wonder if D&C 64, 85, 101 and basically all of Isaiah are being fulfilled?
Last edited by Atrasado on January 28th, 2023, 2:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by cab »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 8:34 am
So my immediate thought is, "the most likely outcome is that I will be excommunicated".

But when I take some time, and do some breathing, and pray, and try to use the keen mind God has endowed me with to work backward from there, I'd have to say, the most LIKELY outcome is that I will be ignored by the general leadership.

And possibly reprimanded by my local leadership.

And possibly be released from my calling as Ward Clerk.

I don't know.
Lucky for you, this isn’t a book that they can require you to stop circulating or a blog or podcast they can ask you to take down…. Your work, as you’ve stated, was to fire this warning shot and let the chips fall…. It’s impossible for you to forsake what you’ve done and put that genie back in the bottle…. So I don’t see how they can employ serious discipline upon you….

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Atrasado »

cab wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:15 am
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 8:34 am
So my immediate thought is, "the most likely outcome is that I will be excommunicated".

But when I take some time, and do some breathing, and pray, and try to use the keen mind God has endowed me with to work backward from there, I'd have to say, the most LIKELY outcome is that I will be ignored by the general leadership.

And possibly reprimanded by my local leadership.

And possibly be released from my calling as Ward Clerk.

I don't know.
Lucky for you, this isn’t a book that they can require you to stop circulating or a blog or podcast they can ask you to take down…. Your work, as you’ve stated, was to fire this warning shot and let the chips fall…. It’s impossible for you to forsake what you’ve done and put that genie back in the bottle…. So I don’t see how they can employ serious discipline upon you….
It's really just a question, isn't it? Will President Nelson renounce ties to a secret society he joined in 1943? It shouldn't be a big deal, should it? After all, it's just "‘one big happy family’ comprised of secret ‘light and fun interaction’" so it shouldn't be a big deal for President Nelson to say that he won't be part of anything secret, anymore. Right?

How could the powers that be in the Church get upset about that? After all, we didn't make him join that club, did we? We didn't put the parts about secret combinations into the Book of Mormon, did we? So how can seeking reassurances from our Church's President and a few other high leaders that they will no longer be part of anything that 'appears' to be a secret work of darkness possibly be offensive?

While we are at it, I think President Nelson should reassure Church members by telling us exactly what he promised when he joined Skull and Bones, what his initiation consisted of, anda list of any illegal or unethical favors he asked for or gave to other members of this secret society. If it's just an innocent club, that should be a short list, right?
Last edited by Atrasado on January 28th, 2023, 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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An Open Letter

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Much ado about nothing.❗️

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by cab »

Atrasado wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:32 am
cab wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:15 am
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 8:34 am
So my immediate thought is, "the most likely outcome is that I will be excommunicated".

But when I take some time, and do some breathing, and pray, and try to use the keen mind God has endowed me with to work backward from there, I'd have to say, the most LIKELY outcome is that I will be ignored by the general leadership.

And possibly reprimanded by my local leadership.

And possibly be released from my calling as Ward Clerk.

I don't know.
Lucky for you, this isn’t a book that they can require you to stop circulating or a blog or podcast they can ask you to take down…. Your work, as you’ve stated, was to fire this warning shot and let the chips fall…. It’s impossible for you to forsake what you’ve done and put that genie back in the bottle…. So I don’t see how they can employ serious discipline upon you….
It's really just a question, isn't it? Will President Nelson renounce ties to a secret society he joined in 1943? It shouldn't be a big deal, should it? After all, it's just "‘one big happy family’ comprised of secret ‘light and fun interaction’" so it shouldn't be a big deal for President Nelson to say that he won't be part of anything secret, anymore. Right?

How could the powers that be in the Church get upset about that? After all, we didn't make him join that club, did we? We didn't put the parts about secret combinations into the Book of Mormon, did we? So how can seeking reassurances from our Church's President and a few other high leaders that they will no longer be part of anything that 'appears' to be a secret work of darkness possibly be offensive?

While we are at it, I think President Nelson should reassure Church members by telling us exactly what he promised when he joined Skull and Bones, what his initiation consisted of, anda list of any illegal or unethical favors he asked for or gave to other members of this secret society. If it's just an innocent club, that should be a short list, right?

God bless the reporter or missionary that’s asks him point blank

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Luke »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:48 pm
pho·to·syn·the·sis wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:44 pm
Ado wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pm I found this the other day while researching more about skull and bones. I think it's a new post by FAIR because I hadn't seen it before. It didn't do much to settle my feelings on the matter but does prove that they know about awareness of some of these hidden works being spread online.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... _M._Nelson
Interesting. Why FAIR established a growing review for Skull & Bones.
Please forgive my language, but what a steaming pile of crap that answer is.

I mean, seriously. That's like F- quality work, right there.

Should we contact them and see if we can help them update their page with the "new information" that's now available?

Yes, I think we should.

Thanks for surfacing this, and sorry I missed it earlier.

It just so happens I was looking at another interesting FAIR article when this popped up.

Looks like FAIR was clear that Brigham was sporting Masonic pins in what I think have to be post-martyrdom photos, but failed to think about the fact that the Masons had BANNED Mormons, to the point of not allowing a Lodge in Utah, and that Brigham was out claiming that Masons had martyred "Brother Joseph".

Kind of weird, don't you think? I mean, if somebody murdered my leader, I wouldn't go around decades later sporting their merch, right?

Right?
Joseph had taught his inner circle that the Priesthood was the original Masonry, hence the symbolism they wore and placed on the Temples.

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Subcomandante »

Atrasado wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:12 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 27th, 2023, 10:45 pm Bashing the prophet for having taken part in a college fraternity group back in the 40s that just happens to have the same name as another, far more sinister college fraternity group in a college back east?

That's pretty low IMO.

That's about as bad as a leftist that looks up what a person said in the 1990s about gays then tries to use it as a political weapon in 2023. In fact it is worse.
John Kerry joined Skull and Bones in 1964 and still wouldn't talk about it in 2004 because it's all limericks, dirty nicknames, and good deeds, right? No. It's self-described as a secret society and its real name is the Brotherhood of Death. (see Isaiah 28 for a discussion on Ephraim having an agreement with death) The Utah Chapter of the Brotherhood of Death (It doesn't just share a name, it's the same organization as the Yale chapter, and you can look that up) held interviews publicly wearing hoods and masks so that they couldn't be identified. Because it's just a secret club where they drink apple juice and sing Disney songs.

To me it seems that a level high Church leader could belong to Al-Qaeda and the Cosa Nostra and attend spirit cooking meetings with Marina Abramovich and the Podesta brothers and openly brag about it and you would still run into a burning building to protect them, wouldn't you? I sure hope I'm wrong. What would it take before you would start to wonder if D&C 64, 85, 101 and basically all of Isaiah are being fulfilled?
College fraternities, even with the same names, are quite different at some universities. Some have specific priorities, others have different initiation rites, others are special towards a specific major that people are studying, and the like. The Yale Skull and Bones is quite different from the U of U Skull and Bones. The Tulane Skull and Bones, only accepted those who were studying medicine, whereas in the U of U, pretty much every major is accepted. The University of Tampa chapter is quite open to the point where an interested person is invited to talk to a professor about membership requirements.

Then again, if you actually visited different colleges, this would have been pretty easy to figure out.

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by endlessQuestions »

Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 5:55 am
Atrasado wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:12 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 27th, 2023, 10:45 pm Bashing the prophet for having taken part in a college fraternity group back in the 40s that just happens to have the same name as another, far more sinister college fraternity group in a college back east?

That's pretty low IMO.

That's about as bad as a leftist that looks up what a person said in the 1990s about gays then tries to use it as a political weapon in 2023. In fact it is worse.
John Kerry joined Skull and Bones in 1964 and still wouldn't talk about it in 2004 because it's all limericks, dirty nicknames, and good deeds, right? No. It's self-described as a secret society and its real name is the Brotherhood of Death. (see Isaiah 28 for a discussion on Ephraim having an agreement with death) The Utah Chapter of the Brotherhood of Death (It doesn't just share a name, it's the same organization as the Yale chapter, and you can look that up) held interviews publicly wearing hoods and masks so that they couldn't be identified. Because it's just a secret club where they drink apple juice and sing Disney songs.

To me it seems that a level high Church leader could belong to Al-Qaeda and the Cosa Nostra and attend spirit cooking meetings with Marina Abramovich and the Podesta brothers and openly brag about it and you would still run into a burning building to protect them, wouldn't you? I sure hope I'm wrong. What would it take before you would start to wonder if D&C 64, 85, 101 and basically all of Isaiah are being fulfilled?
College fraternities, even with the same names, are quite different at some universities. Some have specific priorities, others have different initiation rites, others are special towards a specific major that people are studying, and the like. The Yale Skull and Bones is quite different from the U of U Skull and Bones. The Tulane Skull and Bones, only accepted those who were studying medicine, whereas in the U of U, pretty much every major is accepted. The University of Tampa chapter is quite open to the point where an interested person is invited to talk to a professor about membership requirements.

Then again, if you actually visited different colleges, this would have been pretty easy to figure out.
Great points, Sub. Would you agree that the easiest way to resolve this would be for Russell M. Nelson, who I believe is still alive, to come forward and explain to us what the University of Utah Skull and Bones chapter’s purpose is? And what their initiation rights are? And any oaths or covenants they might make as they join themselves to the organization?

And perhaps he could explain why he’s “ambivalent” about his membership in fraternities (his words). After all, the word ambivalent means a DEEP set of opposing feelings. In fact, the original meaning of the word indicates feelings so deep that doctors (who used to know Latin pretty well) thought of ambivalence as a symptom of schizophrenia. Not anymore, though, because, you know, words change meanings, I guess.

Or what about the hundreds of other prominent church members and leaders that are part of this “honor’s society”? Maybe they’d be willing to go on the record? I’m sure they’d agree there’s the “appearance of evil” (Thessalonians) simply based on the Skull and Bones members dressed in drag, black face, and proclaiming their support of infanticide in THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH YEARBOOK.

Or, I don’t know, maybe they even be willing to sit down for an interview WITH SHOWING UP IN BLACK ROBES AND WHITE MASKS THAT CONCEAL THEIR IDENTITY.

What do you think?

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Subcomandante »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 28th, 2023, 6:32 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 5:55 am
Atrasado wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:12 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 27th, 2023, 10:45 pm Bashing the prophet for having taken part in a college fraternity group back in the 40s that just happens to have the same name as another, far more sinister college fraternity group in a college back east?

That's pretty low IMO.

That's about as bad as a leftist that looks up what a person said in the 1990s about gays then tries to use it as a political weapon in 2023. In fact it is worse.
John Kerry joined Skull and Bones in 1964 and still wouldn't talk about it in 2004 because it's all limericks, dirty nicknames, and good deeds, right? No. It's self-described as a secret society and its real name is the Brotherhood of Death. (see Isaiah 28 for a discussion on Ephraim having an agreement with death) The Utah Chapter of the Brotherhood of Death (It doesn't just share a name, it's the same organization as the Yale chapter, and you can look that up) held interviews publicly wearing hoods and masks so that they couldn't be identified. Because it's just a secret club where they drink apple juice and sing Disney songs.

To me it seems that a level high Church leader could belong to Al-Qaeda and the Cosa Nostra and attend spirit cooking meetings with Marina Abramovich and the Podesta brothers and openly brag about it and you would still run into a burning building to protect them, wouldn't you? I sure hope I'm wrong. What would it take before you would start to wonder if D&C 64, 85, 101 and basically all of Isaiah are being fulfilled?
College fraternities, even with the same names, are quite different at some universities. Some have specific priorities, others have different initiation rites, others are special towards a specific major that people are studying, and the like. The Yale Skull and Bones is quite different from the U of U Skull and Bones. The Tulane Skull and Bones, only accepted those who were studying medicine, whereas in the U of U, pretty much every major is accepted. The University of Tampa chapter is quite open to the point where an interested person is invited to talk to a professor about membership requirements.

Then again, if you actually visited different colleges, this would have been pretty easy to figure out.
Great points, Sub. Would you agree that the easiest way to resolve this would be for Russell M. Nelson, who I believe is still alive, to come forward and explain to us what the University of Utah Skull and Bones chapter’s purpose is? And what their initiation rights are? And any oaths or covenants they might make as they join themselves to the organization?

And perhaps he could explain why he’s “ambivalent” about his membership in fraternities (his words). After all, the word ambivalent means a DEEP set of opposing feelings. In fact, the original meaning of the word indicates feelings so deep that doctors (who used to know Latin pretty well) thought of ambivalence as a symptom of schizophrenia. Not anymore, though, because, you know, words change meanings, I guess.

Or what about the hundreds of other prominent church members and leaders that are part of this “honor’s society”? Maybe they’d be willing to go on the record? I’m sure they’d agree there’s the “appearance of evil” (Thessalonians) simply based on the Skull and Bones members dressed in drag, black face, and proclaiming their support of infanticide in THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH YEARBOOK.

Or, I don’t know, maybe they even be willing to sit down for an interview WITH SHOWING UP IN BLACK ROBES AND WHITE MASKS THAT CONCEAL THEIR IDENTITY.

What do you think?
To answer your first point, there really is a no win situation, except to say that Skull and Bones' requirements differ from college to college. The most famous chapter is the Yale chapter. There are other chapters out there of Skull and Bones in quite a few universities with different entrance requirements.

Ambivalent literally means that you are in two minds about something, as in, you are not sure if what you did was really good or really bad, or worse, both. Guess what. President Nelson was and is not perfect. But today he is a prophet. Joseph Smith did not go into detail about the sins he committed as a youth though he did mention that he committed them. He was still a prophet.

People can be ambivalent over decisions that they made in the past that may not have been the best ones. The past is done, we need to take care of the present to ensure a good future.

Talking about his initiation rites back in the 40s would not be suitable because nearly 80 years have passed since then. Fraternities reform over time. Initiation rites change over time. Just look at our own endowment for crying out loud!

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by endlessQuestions »

Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 6:47 am
endlessQuestions wrote: January 28th, 2023, 6:32 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 5:55 am
Atrasado wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:12 am
John Kerry joined Skull and Bones in 1964 and still wouldn't talk about it in 2004 because it's all limericks, dirty nicknames, and good deeds, right? No. It's self-described as a secret society and its real name is the Brotherhood of Death. (see Isaiah 28 for a discussion on Ephraim having an agreement with death) The Utah Chapter of the Brotherhood of Death (It doesn't just share a name, it's the same organization as the Yale chapter, and you can look that up) held interviews publicly wearing hoods and masks so that they couldn't be identified. Because it's just a secret club where they drink apple juice and sing Disney songs.

To me it seems that a level high Church leader could belong to Al-Qaeda and the Cosa Nostra and attend spirit cooking meetings with Marina Abramovich and the Podesta brothers and openly brag about it and you would still run into a burning building to protect them, wouldn't you? I sure hope I'm wrong. What would it take before you would start to wonder if D&C 64, 85, 101 and basically all of Isaiah are being fulfilled?
College fraternities, even with the same names, are quite different at some universities. Some have specific priorities, others have different initiation rites, others are special towards a specific major that people are studying, and the like. The Yale Skull and Bones is quite different from the U of U Skull and Bones. The Tulane Skull and Bones, only accepted those who were studying medicine, whereas in the U of U, pretty much every major is accepted. The University of Tampa chapter is quite open to the point where an interested person is invited to talk to a professor about membership requirements.

Then again, if you actually visited different colleges, this would have been pretty easy to figure out.
Great points, Sub. Would you agree that the easiest way to resolve this would be for Russell M. Nelson, who I believe is still alive, to come forward and explain to us what the University of Utah Skull and Bones chapter’s purpose is? And what their initiation rights are? And any oaths or covenants they might make as they join themselves to the organization?

And perhaps he could explain why he’s “ambivalent” about his membership in fraternities (his words). After all, the word ambivalent means a DEEP set of opposing feelings. In fact, the original meaning of the word indicates feelings so deep that doctors (who used to know Latin pretty well) thought of ambivalence as a symptom of schizophrenia. Not anymore, though, because, you know, words change meanings, I guess.

Or what about the hundreds of other prominent church members and leaders that are part of this “honor’s society”? Maybe they’d be willing to go on the record? I’m sure they’d agree there’s the “appearance of evil” (Thessalonians) simply based on the Skull and Bones members dressed in drag, black face, and proclaiming their support of infanticide in THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH YEARBOOK.

Or, I don’t know, maybe they even be willing to sit down for an interview WITH SHOWING UP IN BLACK ROBES AND WHITE MASKS THAT CONCEAL THEIR IDENTITY.

What do you think?
To answer your first point, there really is a no win situation, except to say that Skull and Bones' requirements differ from college to college. The most famous chapter is the Yale chapter. There are other chapters out there of Skull and Bones in quite a few universities with different entrance requirements.

Ambivalent literally means that you are in two minds about something, as in, you are not sure if what you did was really good or really bad, or worse, both. Guess what. President Nelson was and is not perfect. But today he is a prophet. Joseph Smith did not go into detail about the sins he committed as a youth though he did mention that he committed them. He was still a prophet.

People can be ambivalent over decisions that they made in the past that may not have been the best ones. The past is done, we need to take care of the present to ensure a good future.

Talking about his initiation rites back in the 40s would not be suitable because nearly 80 years have passed since then. Fraternities reform over time. Initiation rites change over time. Just look at our own endowment for crying out loud!
Great point about our endowment, Sub.

So, like, I don't need to go repent of that murder I committed 25 years ago? The statute of limitations ran out, and we're all good?

Or what about that girl I got pregnant, and then pressured to get an abortion? We all good there, cuz, "it's been a long time"?

I noticed you answered the parts of my post you wanted to, but ignored the parts that are, say, a bit more difficult to address.

Let me ask it one question at a time: Based on the appearance of evil being practiced at the University of Utah Skull and Bones chapter, would it or would it not be appropriate for the CURRENTLY ALIVE, prominent members of the Church who are part of that organization to come forward and help us better understand the nature of that organization.

After all, if it's "just an honor's society", they should be very proud of their accomplishments.

Maybe they could publish the minutes to their meetings?

Share with us their academic achievements?

Give us a tour of their clubhouse?

Or, again, maybe JUST SHOW UP TO AN INTERVIEW NOT DRESSED IN FULL LENGTH BLACK ROBES AND WHITE DEATH MASKS.

I mean, there's nothing to hide, right?

Just a bunch of bright, ambitious college kids doing silly things, right?

RIGHT?

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by spiritMan »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:46 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:25 pm How did you get the email addresses of all the general authorities??
Due to some people's perception of my level of integrity, I was provided access to this information.

I'll just say this as well... I had the opportunity to use some information I was provided that I decided was too personal to use. I chose instead to simply use their official corporate emails, since the patterns that are involved there are actually a matter of public record, and could be deduced by anyone interested in going to the trouble.

Fair enough?
I think it's stupid for members not to have e-mail addresses of the GAs. So incredibly dumb.

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Subcomandante wrote: January 27th, 2023, 10:45 pm Bashing the prophet for having taken part in a college fraternity group back in the 40s that just happens to have the same name as another, far more sinister college fraternity group in a college back east?

That's pretty low IMO.

That's about as bad as a leftist that looks up what a person said in the 1990s about gays then tries to use it as a political weapon in 2023. In fact it is worse.
How about encouraging the entire membership of the church to follow corrupt governments and to take a chemical concoction that was completely ineffective and either killed or maimed many of them? I know you tend to enjoy the whole “good global citizens” thing, but it is evil when you see who they are aligning themselves with. “Bashing” is how you perceive it, righteous indignation and judgment is a more appropriate perspective.
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 28th, 2023, 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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