Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Church

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endlessQuestions
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by endlessQuestions »

spiritMan wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:15 am
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:46 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:25 pm How did you get the email addresses of all the general authorities??
Due to some people's perception of my level of integrity, I was provided access to this information.

I'll just say this as well... I had the opportunity to use some information I was provided that I decided was too personal to use. I chose instead to simply use their official corporate emails, since the patterns that are involved there are actually a matter of public record, and could be deduced by anyone interested in going to the trouble.

Fair enough?
I think it's stupid for members not to have e-mail addresses of the GAs. So incredibly dumb.
I would agree.

This idea that we lay members should have some sort of barrier between us and our leadership just doesn't fly, in my opinion.

It's not scriptural.

It's not doctrinal.

It's not practical.

They are public figures. They should be willing and anxious to engage with the public. To minister to them. To reason with them. To answer their questions. To testify boldly of their allegiance to Jesus Christ. And so on and so on.

In my opinion, of course.

endlessQuestions
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by endlessQuestions »

Ado wrote: January 27th, 2023, 7:35 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 5:10 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:16 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:07 pm

Holy cow.

Well, that got awkward fast.

Here was the FAIR volunteers response to me:

"I would be interested in perusing whatever you can point me to. However, you should be aware that we are interested in debunking the idea that this was an evil secret society, rather than accepting it."

So I wrote back:

"Hmmm, well that's an interesting position to take.

Are you not interested in following the evidence to its logical conclusion and presenting the facts (for both sides of the argument)? Because I think it might be hard to debunk the idea that it was not an evil, secret society when the people involved in it show up to interviews in black robes and white masks in an effort to conceal their identity, and you see what the group has been up to when you go through the Utonian archives.

I'm also not sure I want to spend time and effort pulling things together just to have it rejected because you've presupposed an outcome. But I'd be happy to have you look at what's out there, present it as it stands in the historical record, and then argue that they were just joking around.

In fact, the easiest thing would probably be for you to do this. Go to this link:

https://collections.lib.utah.edu/search ... um_utonian

It's all the Utonians. There's some debate as to when Skull and Bones started at the University of Utah, so you'll have to start around 1905, but go through each year and just search for Skull and Bones.

Then post that new evidence on the site, and let me know, and I'll take a look and see if you missed anything."

The President got back to me, too. I think I'm going to check with him and see if this is the official position of the organization.
Email to the President of FAIR:

Actually, it looks like we're caught in a crossfire of messages here.
This is what <redactd FAIR volunteer> had to say:

"I would be interested in perusing whatever you can point me to. However, you should be aware that we are interested in debunking the idea that this was an evil secret society, rather than accepting it"

May I ask, is that the official FAIR position on this? Because I thought we were a religion that defined truth as "things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come", so it was a bit startling to see Trevor's response in black and white on my screen. I know FAIR is an apologetics site, but are they willing to ignore historical evidence that doesn't support their presupposed conclusions?

Perhaps you should touch base with him so we're all on the same page here. I did tell him where your team can go to do a large amount of research that will show the true nature of Skull and Bones on the University of Utah campus.

And I also might point out that the very first Google results regarding this topic show a group of people who came to an interview dressed in black robes and wearing masks to conceal their identities. Does that not seem an important detail to include in your research?

Thanks, and I'll look forward to receiving your response.

Justin
Okay, so our volunteer friend at FAIR wants to keep talking. He wrote:

"So you're implying that Pres. Nelson is a Gadianton Robber and we're part of the coverup?

I was inducted into the Order of the Arrow when I was a Boy Scout. It is a "secret society" by your definition. But it is entirely honorable and nothing more than a service club.

The clubs that Pres. Nelson participated in were probably more playful than the Order of the Arrow, but quite unlikely to have been any more sinister.

I have seen enough conspiracy theories and anti-Mormon rumors over the years that it's generally pretty easy to recognize things for what they really are. And this easily fits into that category.

Sorry we won't be changing our wiki to go against our mission, but it's certainly not because we're ignoring evidence."

So I responded:

Okay, <redacted>, but please remember that I've told you that this conversation is in the public domain, okay? If you want to keep talking, let's keep talking, as I'm always open to following the Savior's example of reasoning with one another.

Are you aware of President Nelson's quote in his autobiography where he admits that he feels "ambivalent" about his association with the groups he affiliated with?

What does the word "ambivalent" mean to you? I would recommend using a dictionary, because that's kind of how I roll.

It's not exactly what I'd call repentance, but it might indicate that there were things going on that President Nelson recognized as inappropriate.

This would make even more sense if you were to look at Lorenzo Snow and the First Presidency's official position on young men in particular who were joining themselves to these types of groups. This would have been the official church position at the time that President Nelson made his choices (As far as I can discern), so we literally have our current prophet disregarding the official position of the church and NOT "following the prophet" that he had, I think we can safely assume, sustained.

Would you be willing to at least put the quote from President Nelson regarding his ambivalence on your wiki? And maybe the definition of the word ambivalence? And for extra credit, you could compare the word ambivalent with repentant. That would be cool!

Also, I need to be extremely clear with you. I do not take kindly to people who try to use logical fallacies and sophistry to try to put words into my mouth. I in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM am implying that President Nelson is a Gadianton Robber, nor that you and the organization you represent are involved in any kind of "cover up".

If you're going to be involved in apologetics, I would say you need to be much, much more careful about how you have these conversations, as it's rather unbecoming to use the tactics we read of in the Book of Mormon to try to paint me as holding a position that the record clearly shows I don't hold. And for the record, I have not drawn ANY final conclusions regarding this topic. Indeed, I've been researching it for YEARS and am doing everything I can to give these men and women the benefit of the doubt. It's an important skill to learn - the ability to draw intermediate conclusions as you find new evidence, without jumping to the conclusion that the appearance of wrongdoing equates to the presence of wrongdoing.

Talk to you again soon???

Justin

###############

What world am I in?

I've defended these people before, and used them as a resource.

Won't be making that mistake again...
Do you have that quote on hand where President Nelson says he feels ambivalent about his associations with those secret groups? I'd love to see that.
I believe it's page 44 of the autobiography. It's within a page or two of the actual Skull and Bones quote.

He doesn't use the words "secret societies". I believe the word is "fraternities", which I consider to be the same thing, based on my experience getting tapped by what one would consider a "normal" fraternity (Kappa Sigma, University of Denver).

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Subcomandante
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Subcomandante »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:22 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 27th, 2023, 10:45 pm Bashing the prophet for having taken part in a college fraternity group back in the 40s that just happens to have the same name as another, far more sinister college fraternity group in a college back east?

That's pretty low IMO.

That's about as bad as a leftist that looks up what a person said in the 1990s about gays then tries to use it as a political weapon in 2023. In fact it is worse.
How about encouraging the entire membership of the church to follow corrupt governments and to take a chemical concoction that was completely ineffective and either killed or maimed many of them? I know you tend to enjoy the who “good global citizens” thing, but it is evil when you see who they are aligning themselves with. “Bashing” is how you perceive it, righteous indignation and judgment is a more appropriate perspective.
The chemical concoction that you speak of has been proven to be quite effective in lowering the severe symptoms of the disease. Literally HUNDREDS of studies prove this, all of them peer-reviewed. In fact, it has been proven that there are more cases of COVID-induced myocarditis than there have been myocarditis cases induced by the COVID vaccines. Masks and vaccines are not evil.

Jesus sat with the publicans and sinners, much to the chagrin of the Pharisees of his day. Many here are Pharisees that whine and moan about President Nelson going to the NAACP and LDS Charities teaming up with UNHCR and UNICEF.

Jesus had a Roman Tax Collector as one of his disciples. He also had Judas Iscariot and he was over the treasury. I can imagine the forum's response if an Apostle today were to pass away and he were to be replaced by someone who worked in the IRS. Oh, wait, I don't have to!

Everyone hates Gong because of his affiliation with the CFR! Augh, the humanity!!!

Everyone hates Uchtdorf because one of his family members donated to the Biden campaign using Uchtdorf's credit card. Gasp! The humanity of reaffirming that you don't have to belong to a specific political party in order to be a good member of the Church.

Everyone hates Oaks because, OMG!!! He happened to go to the University of Chicago and clerked for Earl Warren, eternal boogyman of many on this board due to his liberal ideology.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:01 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:22 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 27th, 2023, 10:45 pm Bashing the prophet for having taken part in a college fraternity group back in the 40s that just happens to have the same name as another, far more sinister college fraternity group in a college back east?

That's pretty low IMO.

That's about as bad as a leftist that looks up what a person said in the 1990s about gays then tries to use it as a political weapon in 2023. In fact it is worse.
How about encouraging the entire membership of the church to follow corrupt governments and to take a chemical concoction that was completely ineffective and either killed or maimed many of them? I know you tend to enjoy the who “good global citizens” thing, but it is evil when you see who they are aligning themselves with. “Bashing” is how you perceive it, righteous indignation and judgment is a more appropriate perspective.
The chemical concoction that you speak of has been proven to be quite effective in lowering the severe symptoms of the disease. Literally HUNDREDS of studies prove this, all of them peer-reviewed. In fact, it has been proven that there are more cases of COVID-induced myocarditis than there have been myocarditis cases induced by the COVID vaccines. Masks and vaccines are not evil.

Jesus sat with the publicans and sinners, much to the chagrin of the Pharisees of his day. Many here are Pharisees that whine and moan about President Nelson going to the NAACP and LDS Charities teaming up with UNHCR and UNICEF.

Jesus had a Roman Tax Collector as one of his disciples. He also had Judas Iscariot and he was over the treasury. I can imagine the forum's response if an Apostle today were to pass away and he were to be replaced by someone who worked in the IRS. Oh, wait, I don't have to!

Everyone hates Gong because of his affiliation with the CFR! Augh, the humanity!!!

Everyone hates Uchtdorf because one of his family members donated to the Biden campaign using Uchtdorf's credit card. Gasp! The humanity of reaffirming that you don't have to belong to a specific political party in order to be a good member of the Church.

Everyone hates Oaks because, OMG!!! He happened to go to the University of Chicago and clerked for Earl Warren, eternal boogyman of many on this board due to his liberal ideology.
You are a glowing good global citizen. GGGC.

BTW, I’d suggest you rethink your usage of the acronym “OMG”.
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 28th, 2023, 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

endlessQuestions
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by endlessQuestions »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 5:18 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 5:10 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:16 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:07 pm

Holy cow.

Well, that got awkward fast.

Here was the FAIR volunteers response to me:

"I would be interested in perusing whatever you can point me to. However, you should be aware that we are interested in debunking the idea that this was an evil secret society, rather than accepting it."

So I wrote back:

"Hmmm, well that's an interesting position to take.

Are you not interested in following the evidence to its logical conclusion and presenting the facts (for both sides of the argument)? Because I think it might be hard to debunk the idea that it was not an evil, secret society when the people involved in it show up to interviews in black robes and white masks in an effort to conceal their identity, and you see what the group has been up to when you go through the Utonian archives.

I'm also not sure I want to spend time and effort pulling things together just to have it rejected because you've presupposed an outcome. But I'd be happy to have you look at what's out there, present it as it stands in the historical record, and then argue that they were just joking around.

In fact, the easiest thing would probably be for you to do this. Go to this link:

https://collections.lib.utah.edu/search ... um_utonian

It's all the Utonians. There's some debate as to when Skull and Bones started at the University of Utah, so you'll have to start around 1905, but go through each year and just search for Skull and Bones.

Then post that new evidence on the site, and let me know, and I'll take a look and see if you missed anything."

The President got back to me, too. I think I'm going to check with him and see if this is the official position of the organization.
Email to the President of FAIR:

Actually, it looks like we're caught in a crossfire of messages here.
This is what <redactd FAIR volunteer> had to say:

"I would be interested in perusing whatever you can point me to. However, you should be aware that we are interested in debunking the idea that this was an evil secret society, rather than accepting it"

May I ask, is that the official FAIR position on this? Because I thought we were a religion that defined truth as "things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come", so it was a bit startling to see Trevor's response in black and white on my screen. I know FAIR is an apologetics site, but are they willing to ignore historical evidence that doesn't support their presupposed conclusions?

Perhaps you should touch base with him so we're all on the same page here. I did tell him where your team can go to do a large amount of research that will show the true nature of Skull and Bones on the University of Utah campus.

And I also might point out that the very first Google results regarding this topic show a group of people who came to an interview dressed in black robes and wearing masks to conceal their identities. Does that not seem an important detail to include in your research?

Thanks, and I'll look forward to receiving your response.

Justin
Okay, so our volunteer friend at FAIR wants to keep talking. He wrote:

"So you're implying that Pres. Nelson is a Gadianton Robber and we're part of the coverup?

I was inducted into the Order of the Arrow when I was a Boy Scout. It is a "secret society" by your definition. But it is entirely honorable and nothing more than a service club.

The clubs that Pres. Nelson participated in were probably more playful than the Order of the Arrow, but quite unlikely to have been any more sinister.

I have seen enough conspiracy theories and anti-Mormon rumors over the years that it's generally pretty easy to recognize things for what they really are. And this easily fits into that category.

Sorry we won't be changing our wiki to go against our mission, but it's certainly not because we're ignoring evidence."

So I responded:

Okay, <redacted>, but please remember that I've told you that this conversation is in the public domain, okay? If you want to keep talking, let's keep talking, as I'm always open to following the Savior's example of reasoning with one another.

Are you aware of President Nelson's quote in his autobiography where he admits that he feels "ambivalent" about his association with the groups he affiliated with?

What does the word "ambivalent" mean to you? I would recommend using a dictionary, because that's kind of how I roll.

It's not exactly what I'd call repentance, but it might indicate that there were things going on that President Nelson recognized as inappropriate.

This would make even more sense if you were to look at Lorenzo Snow and the First Presidency's official position on young men in particular who were joining themselves to these types of groups. This would have been the official church position at the time that President Nelson made his choices (As far as I can discern), so we literally have our current prophet disregarding the official position of the church and NOT "following the prophet" that he had, I think we can safely assume, sustained.

Would you be willing to at least put the quote from President Nelson regarding his ambivalence on your wiki? And maybe the definition of the word ambivalence? And for extra credit, you could compare the word ambivalent with repentant. That would be cool!

Also, I need to be extremely clear with you. I do not take kindly to people who try to use logical fallacies and sophistry to try to put words into my mouth. I in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM am implying that President Nelson is a Gadianton Robber, nor that you and the organization you represent are involved in any kind of "cover up".

If you're going to be involved in apologetics, I would say you need to be much, much more careful about how you have these conversations, as it's rather unbecoming to use the tactics we read of in the Book of Mormon to try to paint me as holding a position that the record clearly shows I don't hold. And for the record, I have not drawn ANY final conclusions regarding this topic. Indeed, I've been researching it for YEARS and am doing everything I can to give these men and women the benefit of the doubt. It's an important skill to learn - the ability to draw intermediate conclusions as you find new evidence, without jumping to the conclusion that the appearance of wrongdoing equates to the presence of wrongdoing.

Talk to you again soon???

Justin

###############

What world am I in?

I've defended these people before, and used them as a resource.

Won't be making that mistake again...
I'm really trying to get FAIR on the record here, because I have to believe we have a rogue volunteer at work. Here's what I just wrote the President of FAIR:

Scott,
Truly, I would get ahold of <redacted> and ask him to stop talking.

I've told him our conversation is in the public record, and as far as I can tell right now, he's acting as an official representative of your organization.

I've used your organization's research extensively over the years.

I've defended the organization.

But if what <redacted> is saying is actually the official position of the FAIR, I can promise you, I will NEVER trust a single word that goes up on that wiki and I will do EVERYTHING in my power to make sure that researchers get to see this story so they can determine for themselves whether you're a credible source of information or not.

Now is not the time to shrink away and go silent. Now is the time to step up and lead your organization.

If <redacted> continues to write to me, I'm going to continue to post his words in the public sphere (although I have redacted his name in order to protect his identity).
Ok, last bit of housekeeping before my extended time-out. Here's the rest of the conversation with FAIR:

Them:

>please remember that I've told you that this conversation is in the public domain, okay?

You haven't said that until now, and we generally consider these conversations to be private between FAIR members and the person submitting the question (see the footer at the bottom of the original e-mail I responded to). But we also expect that our answers could show up anywhere, so I suppose that is up to you. However, we wouldn't publish anything you wrote without your permission.

I'm sorry for drawing conclusions that you disagree with from what you implied.

We do have a FAIR volunteer that has expressed an interest in looking at any real evidence you have, but it can't just be a link to the yearbook archive. It needs to be specific things that you think are worth looking at. If you're willing to "package it up" as you originally offered, it will at least get looked at, but we're all too busy for a wild goose chase.

Me:

Understood.

I'm sorry if we had a misunderstanding about what this statement from earlier in our conversation means: " I'm going to answer your questions as honestly as you answered mine, but then I think it would probably be best if you and I stopped talking at this point, and I just worked through the President of your organization, so I'm making sure I'm getting the official position, because like it or not, y'all are now a part of our research, which is in the public record".

And thank you for the apology. I accept it full-heartedly.

Please accept my apology as well for my tone. I actually had to put myself in time-out for the night, as I could feel that I was headed to a place I don't want to be mentally and spiritually.

I'll pull a few things together and send them on over as soon as I can.

Have a wonderful evening and weekend!

#############

As I mentioned in another thread, although I told them I'd get back to them, the Spirit let me know that's not what I ought to be doing. FAIR has a mission, they're performing that mission, and it's not my place to tell them what to put on their wiki. I simply misunderstood what their mission was, and how they conducted themselves. Now that I know I'll make my decisions about using their "research" accordingly.

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BigT
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by BigT »

Ado wrote: January 27th, 2023, 7:35 pm
Do you have that quote on hand where President Nelson says he feels ambivalent about his associations with those secret groups? I'd love to see that.
This is all I could find in his book.
PDF available here (epub download doesn’t seem to work, at least not for me):
https://archive.org/details/from-heart- ... n/mode/1up
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Brighidara
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Brighidara »

cwass wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:02 am Maybe there are a few Alma's in church leadership. Even if it is just one.
.
Last edited by Brighidara on January 28th, 2023, 5:34 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by TheDuke »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 8:34 am
As I've mentioned several times, I was either created with, or through circumstances outside of my control have developed, a brain that immediately goes to the "worst case scenario".
I would say this statement is true. That is you see only "the worst case....." You're OP is to me non-compelling in any way. Some how, I am completely abashed that folks on this forum have no experience in real world. And posting all those seemingly out of context scriptures a few pages later shows complete lack of understanding and spirit each scripture, which must be taken in context I mean this in a positive light, but you seem to be reaching for something that doesn't exist. It seems to have been so from the initial posts in December and love for AGF seemingly trolling (I engaged with him many times and never once got a fact or logical response).

Several people here have made legitimate claims against the leaders about stories and history, etc... but frankly, I don't see anything in all this stuff that is out-of-line. Influence peddling is pretty normal and seems to go back all the way to David and Abraham (his fun times with Pharoah), JS, BY, on and one. Not sure what you're expecting out of leaders? Live in a hole in the ground? Even JS went to DC and hob nobbed to influence the President (no less). he hired people to do if for him, some lawyers some to provide influence (also to many governors). I'm sorry, I think the spirit that is telling you this is big or huge, is not the HG, but that is my opinion and I have waded through much of your stuff, seems to me you are honest, so I'm not saying anything about your intent, just it doesn't seem to be much of a story, but a distraction. I also am writing this as you requested input and as an attempt to let you know how I feel as an unbiased observer, with no ill intent either. Good bye.

cwass
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by cwass »

Brighidara wrote: January 28th, 2023, 10:31 am
cwass wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:02 am Maybe there are a few Alma's in church leadership. Even if it is just one.
If you mean Alma the elder, he came out of the corrupt priests of King Noah and gathered with the pure in heart by the waters of Mormon. They gathered out.
Very astute observation. Maybe that is more applicable than we know.

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Luke »

TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:04 am Even JS went to DC and hob nobbed to influence the President (no less).
I don’t understand how people seriously think that the two are the same.

Joseph went and threatened the politicians with fire and brimstone from Heaven if they didn’t assist the Saints and continued to persecute them. He didn’t suck up to them. Can you imagine the present leaders doing the same thing? Of course you can’t.

Brighidara
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Brighidara »

Brighidara wrote: January 28th, 2023, 10:31 am
cwass wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:02 am Maybe there are a few Alma's in church leadership. Even if it is just one.
.
Last edited by Brighidara on January 28th, 2023, 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:01 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:22 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 27th, 2023, 10:45 pm Bashing the prophet for having taken part in a college fraternity group back in the 40s that just happens to have the same name as another, far more sinister college fraternity group in a college back east?

That's pretty low IMO.

That's about as bad as a leftist that looks up what a person said in the 1990s about gays then tries to use it as a political weapon in 2023. In fact it is worse.
How about encouraging the entire membership of the church to follow corrupt governments and to take a chemical concoction that was completely ineffective and either killed or maimed many of them? I know you tend to enjoy the who “good global citizens” thing, but it is evil when you see who they are aligning themselves with. “Bashing” is how you perceive it, righteous indignation and judgment is a more appropriate perspective.
The chemical concoction that you speak of has been proven to be quite effective in lowering the severe symptoms of the disease. Literally HUNDREDS of studies prove this, all of them peer-reviewed. In fact, it has been proven that there are more cases of COVID-induced myocarditis than there have been myocarditis cases induced by the COVID vaccines. Masks and vaccines are not evil.
If it's effective, then why didn't you or your family get it?

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Subcomandante
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Subcomandante »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:48 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:01 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:22 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 27th, 2023, 10:45 pm Bashing the prophet for having taken part in a college fraternity group back in the 40s that just happens to have the same name as another, far more sinister college fraternity group in a college back east?

That's pretty low IMO.

That's about as bad as a leftist that looks up what a person said in the 1990s about gays then tries to use it as a political weapon in 2023. In fact it is worse.
How about encouraging the entire membership of the church to follow corrupt governments and to take a chemical concoction that was completely ineffective and either killed or maimed many of them? I know you tend to enjoy the who “good global citizens” thing, but it is evil when you see who they are aligning themselves with. “Bashing” is how you perceive it, righteous indignation and judgment is a more appropriate perspective.
The chemical concoction that you speak of has been proven to be quite effective in lowering the severe symptoms of the disease. Literally HUNDREDS of studies prove this, all of them peer-reviewed. In fact, it has been proven that there are more cases of COVID-induced myocarditis than there have been myocarditis cases induced by the COVID vaccines. Masks and vaccines are not evil.
If it's effective, then why didn't you or your family get it?
My wife and I had two shots. My kids did get their shots but with the Cuban vaccine.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:54 am
InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:48 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:01 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:22 am

How about encouraging the entire membership of the church to follow corrupt governments and to take a chemical concoction that was completely ineffective and either killed or maimed many of them? I know you tend to enjoy the who “good global citizens” thing, but it is evil when you see who they are aligning themselves with. “Bashing” is how you perceive it, righteous indignation and judgment is a more appropriate perspective.
The chemical concoction that you speak of has been proven to be quite effective in lowering the severe symptoms of the disease. Literally HUNDREDS of studies prove this, all of them peer-reviewed. In fact, it has been proven that there are more cases of COVID-induced myocarditis than there have been myocarditis cases induced by the COVID vaccines. Masks and vaccines are not evil.
If it's effective, then why didn't you or your family get it?
My wife and I had two shots. My kids did get their shots but with the Cuban vaccine.
I thought you said previously that you chose to not get it for yourself and family. What changed?

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Cruiserdude
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Cruiserdude »

Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:54 am
InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:48 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:01 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:22 am

How about encouraging the entire membership of the church to follow corrupt governments and to take a chemical concoction that was completely ineffective and either killed or maimed many of them? I know you tend to enjoy the who “good global citizens” thing, but it is evil when you see who they are aligning themselves with. “Bashing” is how you perceive it, righteous indignation and judgment is a more appropriate perspective.
The chemical concoction that you speak of has been proven to be quite effective in lowering the severe symptoms of the disease. Literally HUNDREDS of studies prove this, all of them peer-reviewed. In fact, it has been proven that there are more cases of COVID-induced myocarditis than there have been myocarditis cases induced by the COVID vaccines. Masks and vaccines are not evil.
If it's effective, then why didn't you or your family get it?
My wife and I had two shots. My kids did get their shots but with the Cuban vaccine.
I'm sorry, hermano.

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Subcomandante
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Subcomandante »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:56 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:54 am
InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:48 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:01 am

The chemical concoction that you speak of has been proven to be quite effective in lowering the severe symptoms of the disease. Literally HUNDREDS of studies prove this, all of them peer-reviewed. In fact, it has been proven that there are more cases of COVID-induced myocarditis than there have been myocarditis cases induced by the COVID vaccines. Masks and vaccines are not evil.
If it's effective, then why didn't you or your family get it?
My wife and I had two shots. My kids did get their shots but with the Cuban vaccine.
I thought you said previously that you chose to not get it for yourself and family. What changed?
I always had the shots as did my wife.

My kids did NOT get the shots because the only ones that were available at the time were the Pfizer shots. We have misgivings about Pfizer.

But the Abdala shots were made available and after doing our research we decided to go for those.

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by cwass »

Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:03 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:56 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:54 am
InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:48 am

If it's effective, then why didn't you or your family get it?
My wife and I had two shots. My kids did get their shots but with the Cuban vaccine.
I thought you said previously that you chose to not get it for yourself and family. What changed?
I always had the shots as did my wife.

My kids did NOT get the shots because the only ones that were available at the time were the Pfizer shots. We have misgivings about Pfizer.

But the Abdala shots were made available and after doing our research we decided to go for those.
I'm sorry but if you haven't received all the booster shots I'm not sure how you can say you are following the prophet...our wise governments have recommended the booster...what is your excuse..
You don't have to answer I think I know and I'm ok with the response.

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by larsenb »

"So you're implying that Pres. Nelson is a Gadianton Robber and we're part of the coverup?"

The gaping, all-pervasive 'assumption trap' strikes again. It's astonishing to see how many people resort to this kind of illogical rhetoric.

larsenb
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by larsenb »

Subcomandante wrote: January 27th, 2023, 10:45 pm Bashing the prophet for having taken part in a college fraternity group back in the 40s that just happens to have the same name as another, far more sinister college fraternity group in a college back east?

That's pretty low IMO.

That's about as bad as a leftist that looks up what a person said in the 1990s about gays then tries to use it as a political weapon in 2023. In fact it is worse.
The problem with this view are the persistent allegations that the Utah group was originally founded by a member of the Yale Skull and Bones.

And why would innocent students at the UofU want to mimic (even in name), a true secret society of questionable origins based on a German secret society. Doesn't make sense.

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Niemand »

Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:01 am The chemical concoction that you speak of has been proven to be quite effective in lowering the severe symptoms of the disease. Literally HUNDREDS of studies prove this, all of them peer-reviewed. In fact, it has been proven that there are more cases of COVID-induced myocarditis than there have been myocarditis cases induced by the COVID vaccines. Masks and vaccines are not evil.
A mRNA injection is not a vaccine. They had to rewrite the dictionary to put that in there.

I'm sure there were plenty of peer-reviewed papers backing Lysenkoism under Stalin too... many people follow the flow, academics included. It's easy to get those papers published. Try getting the other variety published, you'll be blackballed and accused of being a "conspiracy theorist".

Many, many people sre sick with these things. Strokes, pulmonary embolisms and the like are common. I have seen the side effects occur to dozens of people including death, hospitalisation and severe ill health. Even the people handing them out admit there is a problem.

There is also no way in Hell a Christian should be backing a "passport" system with resemblances to the Mark of the Beast in being used to restrict buying and selling and free movement.
Jesus sat with the publicans and sinners, much to the chagrin of the Pharisees of his day. Many here are Pharisees that whine and moan about President Nelson going to the NAACP and LDS Charities teaming up with UNHCR and UNICEF.
The organisations you speak of are the Pharisees. They introduce rule after rule and restrict how people live and wish to strip them of civil rights. Like the Pharisees they sit on the side of power.
Everyone hates Gong because of his affiliation with the CFR! Augh, the humanity!!!
The CFR is not a democratic organisation. It is an elitist group full of the rich and influential who meet behind closed doors to decide what to put on the international political agenda. They are incompatible with liberal democracy and academic freedom. In fact they seek to undermine and "hack" both.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:03 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:56 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:54 am
InfoWarrior82 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:48 am

If it's effective, then why didn't you or your family get it?
My wife and I had two shots. My kids did get their shots but with the Cuban vaccine.
I thought you said previously that you chose to not get it for yourself and family. What changed?
I always had the shots as did my wife.

My kids did NOT get the shots because the only ones that were available at the time were the Pfizer shots. We have misgivings about Pfizer.

But the Abdala shots were made available and after doing our research we decided to go for those.
Oh, then I did misremember... But... Why aren't you up to date on all your boosters?

Atrasado
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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by Atrasado »

Subcomandante wrote: January 28th, 2023, 5:55 am
Atrasado wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:12 am
Subcomandante wrote: January 27th, 2023, 10:45 pm Bashing the prophet for having taken part in a college fraternity group back in the 40s that just happens to have the same name as another, far more sinister college fraternity group in a college back east?

That's pretty low IMO.

That's about as bad as a leftist that looks up what a person said in the 1990s about gays then tries to use it as a political weapon in 2023. In fact it is worse.
John Kerry joined Skull and Bones in 1964 and still wouldn't talk about it in 2004 because it's all limericks, dirty nicknames, and good deeds, right? No. It's self-described as a secret society and its real name is the Brotherhood of Death. (see Isaiah 28 for a discussion on Ephraim having an agreement with death) The Utah Chapter of the Brotherhood of Death (It doesn't just share a name, it's the same organization as the Yale chapter, and you can look that up) held interviews publicly wearing hoods and masks so that they couldn't be identified. Because it's just a secret club where they drink apple juice and sing Disney songs.

To me it seems that a level high Church leader could belong to Al-Qaeda and the Cosa Nostra and attend spirit cooking meetings with Marina Abramovich and the Podesta brothers and openly brag about it and you would still run into a burning building to protect them, wouldn't you? I sure hope I'm wrong. What would it take before you would start to wonder if D&C 64, 85, 101 and basically all of Isaiah are being fulfilled?
College fraternities, even with the same names, are quite different at some universities. Some have specific priorities, others have different initiation rites, others are special towards a specific major that people are studying, and the like. The Yale Skull and Bones is quite different from the U of U Skull and Bones. The Tulane Skull and Bones, only accepted those who were studying medicine, whereas in the U of U, pretty much every major is accepted. The University of Tampa chapter is quite open to the point where an interested person is invited to talk to a professor about membership requirements.

Then again, if you actually visited different colleges, this would have been pretty easy to figure out.
If I actually visited different colleges? You are such a comedian!

You didn't touch my questions, did you? I wonder why.

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by anonymous91 »

Ado wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pm I found this the other day while researching more about skull and bones. I think it's a new post by FAIR because I hadn't seen it before. It didn't do much to settle my feelings on the matter but does prove that they know about awareness of some of these hidden works being spread online.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... _M._Nelson
“Despite their off-putting appearance, the group assure . . . they were actually quite relaxed. One individual described the group as ‘one big happy family’ comprised of ‘light and fun interaction.’

Prominent members of the Skull and Bones society (living or deceased, either from the University of Utah or other universities) include George H. W. Bush, George W. Bush, John Kerry, Russell M. Nelson, Robert D. Hales, Arnold Ferrin (a famous basketball player), David McCullough (a famous author), and Daniel Gilman (founder of The Johns Hopkins University).
😂😂😂

I guess that is one way to describe the Skull & Bones society. It makes me feel so much better that a famous basketball player, author, and founder of John Hopkins are members too, what was I thinking? You know, Idol worshipping is still required. 😂😂😂

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by anonymous91 »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:07 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 3:22 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:58 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:48 pm

Please forgive my language, but what a steaming pile of crap that answer is.

I mean, seriously. That's like F- quality work, right there.

Should we contact them and see if we can help them update their page with the "new information" that's now available?

Yes, I think we should.

Thanks for surfacing this, and sorry I missed it earlier.

It just so happens I was looking at another interesting FAIR article when this popped up.

Looks like FAIR was clear that Brigham was sporting Masonic pins in what I think have to be post-martyrdom photos, but failed to think about the fact that the Masons had BANNED Mormons, to the point of not allowing a Lodge in Utah, and that Brigham was out claiming that Masons had martyred "Brother Joseph".

Kind of weird, don't you think? I mean, if somebody murdered my leader, I wouldn't go around decades later sporting their merch, right?

Right?
Okay, sent the following message to the President of FAIR:

"Scott,

I'm not sure how involved you are in looking at each answer your organization provides, but the page you have up regarding Russell M. Nelson's involvement with Skull and Bones is very poorly done.

There's a group of people who have intensively researched this topic, and we could provide you with a lot of primary source documents that would more honestly and thoroughly answer the question posed. Would you like us to send you that material?

Thanks for all you do, and I look forward to hearing from you soon....

Justin Riggs
720-505-1323
juriggs@gmail.com"

I also sent a similar message to their general inbox. I'll let you know what I hear back.
Well, that was fast. Got word back from FAIR. They said they'd be happy to look at information that could improve their answer:

<redacted, so as to not doxx anyone>
Hi, Justin. We're always open to improvement. I'd be interested in seeing your research on this.

Thanks,
<redacted>
FAIR Volunteer (opinions given are my own and not necessarily those of FAIR or the Church)

Here's how I responded:

"Great.

Do you need it in a nice, clean package, or are you guys willing to wade through some material and pick out what you think is relevant?

The evidence largely exists on two or three threads on a discussion forum. It consists of links to primary source documents like President Nelson's autobiography, the Utonian yearbooks that have President Nelson's Skull and Bones and Owl and Key pictures, and other Utonian yearbook pictures that show that Skull and Bones isn't and wasn't just some "honors association". There are pictures of Skull and Bones members in drag, in black face, and a quote saying something to the effect of "Skull and Bones has taught us to believe in infanticide".

I should mention, many of the people doing this research are very upset, so you'll have to be prepared to wade through that if you want to see everything available.

I'm more curious than upset, so if you'd like me to curate it, I can do that and get back to you in the next few days.

I should also tell you, this is a much bigger problem than just President Nelson. We've identified probably close to a hundred prominent Church members, businessmen, politicians, academics, and leaders that joined secret societies despite their being clear counsel from the prophet's of their day to avoid such affiliations. We've also shown that language regarding secret societies was removed from the General Handbook right at the time President Nelson became an apostle, and then the temple questions were changed to be more "secret society friendly" right after President Nelson became President of the Church.

Let me know how you'd like to proceed, and we'll work to help you improve your answer. Thanks for being willing to take a look at what's out there and improve the quality of the answers on your site. I appreciate that spirit of inquiry very much!

Justin

I probably should have said, "if you want me to curate it, I'll work with the others and pull it together", because I want and will need y'alls help on this. Sorry... things are moving awfully fast right now, and I'm making some mistakes I normally wouldn't. Forgive me for that.
Holy cow.

Well, that got awkward fast.

Here was the FAIR volunteers response to me:

"I would be interested in perusing whatever you can point me to. However, you should be aware that we are interested in debunking the idea that this was an evil secret society, rather than accepting it."

So I wrote back:

"Hmmm, well that's an interesting position to take.

Are you not interested in following the evidence to its logical conclusion and presenting the facts (for both sides of the argument)? Because I think it might be hard to debunk the idea that it was not an evil, secret society when the people involved in it show up to interviews in black robes and white masks in an effort to conceal their identity, and you see what the group has been up to when you go through the Utonian archives.

I'm also not sure I want to spend time and effort pulling things together just to have it rejected because you've presupposed an outcome. But I'd be happy to have you look at what's out there, present it as it stands in the historical record, and then argue that they were just joking around.

In fact, the easiest thing would probably be for you to do this. Go to this link:

https://collections.lib.utah.edu/search ... um_utonian

It's all the Utonians. There's some debate as to when Skull and Bones started at the University of Utah, so you'll have to start around 1905, but go through each year and just search for Skull and Bones.

Then post that new evidence on the site, and let me know, and I'll take a look and see if you missed anything."

The President got back to me, too. I think I'm going to check with him and see if this is the official position of the organization.
Fair Mormon my @#*$! Which part of Secret Society are they having difficulty comprehending? Maybe, we ought to send them a copy of The Book of Mormon and one of President Benson's talks concerning Secret combinations.

Here's a few verses to direct them to:

“And whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed...yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be. Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you.” Moroni, The Book of Mormon, Ether 8:21-25

and here is an excerpt from one of President Benson's talks:

“I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world.” Ezra Taft Benson, I Testify, Ensign, p. 87. November 1988.

If this is what they consider to be a "fair" position, they have a warped sense of reality. SMH

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Re: Church Leaders and Secret Societies: An Open Letter That Was Sent to Several Hundred General Authorities of the Chur

Post by anonymous91 »

Subcomandante wrote: January 27th, 2023, 10:45 pm Bashing the prophet for having taken part in a college fraternity group back in the 40s that just happens to have the same name as another, far more sinister college fraternity group in a college back east?

That's pretty low IMO.

That's about as bad as a leftist that looks up what a person said in the 1990s about gays then tries to use it as a political weapon in 2023. In fact it is worse.
Skull & Bones has been around for a long, long time. They are not this "harmless" fraternity that you claim it to be. Here are just a couple of snippets to show how far back this goes, let's just say it is an extension of the illuminati.
Shortly before he died, George Washington read John Robison's book Proofs of a Conspiracy which exposed the Bavarian Illuminati. Washington immediately expressed his belief to the preacher who had sent him the book, that the designs of the Illuminati were infecting our country. Yale's fraternity Skull and Bones, was established in 1832, and according to evidence, is very likely a branch of the German society started in 1798 by Adam Weishaupt, who was a professor at Ingolstadt University.
“It was not my intention to doubt that, the Doctrines of the Illuminati, and principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more truly satisfied of this fact than I am. The idea that I meant to convey, was, that I did not believe that the Lodges of Free Masons in this Country had, as Societies, endeavoured to propagate the diabolical tenets of the first, or pernicious principles of the latter (if they are susceptible of seperation). That Individuals of them may have done it, or that the founder, or instrument employed to found, the Democratic Societies in the United States, may have had these objects; and actually had a seperation of the People from their Government in view, is too evident to be questioned.” George Washington, Letter to Reverend G. W. Snyder, Writings of George Washington, p 518-519.

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