Zion’s Camp 1834 - ...it will fill the Rocky Mountains: all nations will hear it.

[kirtland r.m.]

On Sunday the 27 of April the saints met together and held a testimony meeting, and many of the elders spoke and bore their testimony. Among the number was Sidney Rigdon, Brigham Young, Orson Hyde, Orson Pratt, Hyrum Smith, Oliver Cowdry, and also Joseph Smith the Prophet who closed by saying, “Brethren, we are laying the foundation of a great work and you know it not, you comprehend it not. The work we are engaged in will grow, spread, and increase until it will fill the land: it will go from sea to sea; it will fill the Rocky Mountains: all nations will hear it: it will fill its destiny; it is the work of Almighty God, and he will maintain and defend it.” It appears to me there was more light made manifest in that meeting pertaining to the gospel and kingdom of God than I had ever received from the whole Sectarian world. “History – The History of Zion’s Camp,” p. 4, The Wilford Woodruff Papers, wilfordwoodruffpapers.org/history-of-zions-camp.

One of the interesting things about this quote, is that in 1834 there were few people living in the rocky mountains, yet Willford Woodruff never the less recorded this interesting quote including it, and the world wide destiny of the Church.

[Dusty Wanderer]

I've always liked this quote, but have some confusion on its source. It's from Woodruff's book the History of Zion's Camp, which he commenced in Sep. 28, 1882. The thing is, it is cited as if it were a quote from Joseph Smith during the camp on Sun. 27th April, 1834 (referring probably from his extensive journals?).

The closest thing I can find in his journals regarding it was in the context of speaking about Zelph on May 1834:

Zelph was a large thick set man and a man of God he was a warrior under the great prophet ^Onandagus^ that was known from the hill Camorah ^or east sea^ to the Rocky mountains. The above knowledge Joseph receieved in a vision

And I can't find anything like it on Joseph Smith Papers either. In fact, the earliest remarks from Joseph about anyone going to the Rocky Mountains are in 1843.

Any idea where that quote is actually from? Or is it an amalgamation of Woodruff's journal and his own memories? Just thought you might know.

[Luke]

I think this version of Joseph’s saying is probably more accurate than WW’s other reporting of it, wherein Joseph allegedly refers to the Church itself and not the Work. Given the readily apparent fact that the Church has hurtled off the rails, yet the Work of God hasn’t stopped, this makes more sense.

[BeNotDeceived]

I think this version of Joseph’s saying is probably more accurate than WW’s other reporting of it, wherein Joseph allegedly refers to the Church itself and not the Work. Given the readily apparent fact that the Church has hurtled off the rails, yet the Work of God hasn’t stopped, this makes more sense.

Weird one group was from Michigan.

Spread means grow from near its place of origin.

[kirtland r.m.]

I've always liked this quote, but have some confusion on its source. It's from Woodruff's book the History of Zion's Camp, which he commenced in Sep. 28, 1882. The thing is, it is cited as if it were a quote from Joseph Smith during the camp on Sun. 27th April, 1834 (referring probably from his extensive journals?).

The closest thing I can find in his journals regarding it was in the context of speaking about Zelph on May 1834:

Zelph was a large thick set man and a man of God he was a warrior under the great prophet ^Onandagus^ that was known from the hill Camorah ^or east sea^ to the Rocky mountains. The above knowledge Joseph receieved in a vision

And I can't find anything like it on Joseph Smith Papers either. In fact, the earliest remarks from Joseph about anyone going to the Rocky Mountains are in 1843.

Any idea where that quote is actually from? Or is it an amalgamation of Woodruff's journal and his own memories? Just thought you might know.

Hey Dusty, here is a little more info. for you, Wilford Woodruff gave the following account: "On Sunday night (April 26, 1834) the Prophet called on all who held the Priesthood to gather into the little log school house they had there. It was a small house, perhaps 14 feet square. But it held the whole of the Priesthood of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who were then in the town of Kirtland, and who had gathered together to go off in Zion's camp. That was the first time I ever saw Oliver Cowdery, or heard him speak; the first time I ever saw Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, and the two Pratts, and Orson Hyde and many others... when we got together the Prophet called upon the Elders of Israel with him to bear testimony of this work. Those that I have named spoke, and a good many that I have not named, bore their testimonies.

"When they got through the Prophet said, 'Brethren I have been very much edified and instructed in your testimonies here tonight, but I want to say to you before the Lord, that you know no more concerning the destinies of this Church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother's lap. You don't comprehend it.'

"I was rather surprised. He said 'it is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight, but this Church will fill North and South America, it will fill the world.' Among other things he said, 'it will fill the Rocky Mountains. There will be tens of thousands of Latter-day Saints who will be gathered in the Rocky Mountains, and there they will open the door for the establishing of the Gospel among the Lamanites, who will receive the Gospel and their endowments and the blessings of God. This people will go into the Rocky Mountains; they will there build temples to the Most High. They will raise up a posterity there, and the Latter-day Saints who dwell in these mountains will stand in the flesh until the coming of the Son of Man. The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains."

On August 6, 1842, Joseph Smith wrote: "I had a conversation with a number of brethren in the shade of the building on the subject of our persecutions in Missouri and the constant annoyance which has followed us since we were driven from that state. I prophesied that the Saints would continue to suffer much affliction and would be driven to the Rocky Mountains, many would apostatize, others would be put to death by our persecutors or lose their lives in consequence of exposure to disease, and some of you will live to go and assist in making settlements and build cities and see the Saints become a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains."

There are also recollections by other church members of Joseph mapping the path the pioneers would take to the Salt Lake Valley. For example, George H. Goddard, a Mormon Pioneer, testified that he was present in the Nauvoo Masonic Hall when Joseph Smith drew a map on the floor with a piece of chalk the Great Basin of western America, indicating the course they would follow across the plains and into the West.

Another church member, Hopkins C. Pendar, reported that "Joseph Smith just before he was killed, made a sketch of the future home of the Saints in the Rocky Mountains and their route or road to that country as he had seen [it] in vision; a map or drawing of it."

Mosiah Hancock wrote in his journal about Joseph Smith visiting his father, Levi's, home, just prior to his demise in Carthage. Mosiah writes, ". . . the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter shop and stood by the turning lathe I went and got my map for him. 'Now,' said he, 'I will show you the travels of this people.' He then showed our travels thru Iowa, and said, 'Here you will make a place for the winter; and here you will travel west until you come to the valley of the Great Salt Lake! You will build cities to the North and to the South, and to the East and to the West; and you will become a great and wealthy people in that land.'"

Wilford Woodruff, Conference Report, April 1898, p.57
Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith (Aug. 6, 1842.) (Millennial Star, Vol. xix., page 630)
"The Life Story of Mosiah Lyman Hancock"
E. Cecil McGavin, "Nauvoo the Beautiful" (Salt Lake City, 1946)
Hyrum L. Andrus, BYU Studies, Vol. 2, No. 2, p.14

A tip of the hat goes to http://moroni10.com for gathering these.http://moroni10.com/mormon_history/jose ... tains.html

I've got more quotes on this, as well as some confirming revelation to some of the individual saints while they were still back east. I have put some of them up on the forum in the past.

[kirtland r.m.]

I may do a little more research on this subject, but here is a very interesting quote by Wilford Woodruff.

All should keep a Journal of the dealings of God with them and their official acts, and keep a true History of Events in this great dispensation. I was inspired and moved upon to write a Journal and keep a record of the affairs of this Church from the time I first Joined this Church up to the Present time. I seldom Ever heard the Prophet Joseph, or Brigham Young, or the Apostles teach preach or Prophesy or perform any official act but what I have recorded it in my Journals, unless some other persons were recording the same, and I could not feel Easy until I had accomplished it. I have written more sacred History of the teaching of the prophets and Apostles and official acts of the Latter day Saints than would make several Testaments as large as the one Handed down to us by the Ancient Apostles. I have kept a Journal of almost Every day of my life since I have been a member of this Church. By referring to my Journals I could tell Each day what I have done, the company I have been in, and what was transpiring around me, and any council and Teaching From the Presidency or Twelve. Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, February 12, 1862, The Wilford Woodruff Papers, wilfordwoodruffpapers.org/journal/1862-02-12.

[TheDuke]

Seems like a conundrum given JS fully thought Zion would be in Mo until things fell apart in 1840'ish and JS was sure 2nd coming would be in 1895 or before? I like Dusty's take, likely a later perspective of something from the past, seemed to happen a lot.

[Dusty Wanderer]

I think this version of Joseph’s saying is probably more accurate than WW’s other reporting of it, wherein Joseph allegedly refers to the Church itself and not the Work. Given the readily apparent fact that the Church has hurtled off the rails, yet the Work of God hasn’t stopped, this makes more sense.

I see what you were meaning with kirtland.rm's latest quote.

WW in 1882 has Joseph saying the "foundation of a great work... will grow, spread, and increase until it will fill the land: it will go from sea to sea; it will fill the Rocky Mountains: all nations will hear it:"

In 1892 he has him saying "this Church will fill North and South America, it will fill the world" that he said there will be thousands of LDS in the Rocky Mountains, they'll build their temples to their most high God, and many more details not in the 1882 citation.

I still cannot find any a single source quote from 1834 that WW could be drawing from. If you know of one, please let me know.

In his 1882 quote, I wonder if it was something he was drawing from memory, perhaps jogged by his recently-reviewed journal entry about Zelph and the "east sea^ to the Rocky mountains" (cited above).

I wonder if his 1892 remarks, that he presents as if it were a quote, were really an amalgamation of things from memory that he recalls Joseph saying on the topic over the course of many years, simply as a way of conveying to his audience a summary of things he'd heard Joseph say on the topic, mixed with developments in nomenclatures and conventions over the course of 50 years. If it were from a quote, it would've been the same as the one in his 1882 book.

That's as generous as I can be about it.

[Dusty Wanderer]

I've always liked this quote, but have some confusion on its source. It's from Woodruff's book the History of Zion's Camp, which he commenced in Sep. 28, 1882. The thing is, it is cited as if it were a quote from Joseph Smith during the camp on Sun. 27th April, 1834 (referring probably from his extensive journals?).

The closest thing I can find in his journals regarding it was in the context of speaking about Zelph on May 1834:

Zelph was a large thick set man and a man of God he was a warrior under the great prophet ^Onandagus^ that was known from the hill Camorah ^or east sea^ to the Rocky mountains. The above knowledge Joseph receieved in a vision

And I can't find anything like it on Joseph Smith Papers either. In fact, the earliest remarks from Joseph about anyone going to the Rocky Mountains are in 1843.

Any idea where that quote is actually from? Or is it an amalgamation of Woodruff's journal and his own memories? Just thought you might know.

Hey Dusty, here is a little more info. for you, Wilford Woodruff gave the following account: "On Sunday night (April 26, 1834) the Prophet called on all who held the Priesthood to gather into the little log school house they had there. It was a small house, perhaps 14 feet square. But it held the whole of the Priesthood of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who were then in the town of Kirtland, and who had gathered together to go off in Zion's camp. That was the first time I ever saw Oliver Cowdery, or heard him speak; the first time I ever saw Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, and the two Pratts, and Orson Hyde and many others... when we got together the Prophet called upon the Elders of Israel with him to bear testimony of this work. Those that I have named spoke, and a good many that I have not named, bore their testimonies.

"When they got through the Prophet said, 'Brethren I have been very much edified and instructed in your testimonies here tonight, but I want to say to you before the Lord, that you know no more concerning the destinies of this Church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother's lap. You don't comprehend it.'

"I was rather surprised. He said 'it is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight, but this Church will fill North and South America, it will fill the world.' Among other things he said, 'it will fill the Rocky Mountains. There will be tens of thousands of Latter-day Saints who will be gathered in the Rocky Mountains, and there they will open the door for the establishing of the Gospel among the Lamanites, who will receive the Gospel and their endowments and the blessings of God. This people will go into the Rocky Mountains; they will there build temples to the Most High. They will raise up a posterity there, and the Latter-day Saints who dwell in these mountains will stand in the flesh until the coming of the Son of Man. The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains."

On August 6, 1842, Joseph Smith wrote: "I had a conversation with a number of brethren in the shade of the building on the subject of our persecutions in Missouri and the constant annoyance which has followed us since we were driven from that state. I prophesied that the Saints would continue to suffer much affliction and would be driven to the Rocky Mountains, many would apostatize, others would be put to death by our persecutors or lose their lives in consequence of exposure to disease, and some of you will live to go and assist in making settlements and build cities and see the Saints become a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains."

There are also recollections by other church members of Joseph mapping the path the pioneers would take to the Salt Lake Valley. For example, George H. Goddard, a Mormon Pioneer, testified that he was present in the Nauvoo Masonic Hall when Joseph Smith drew a map on the floor with a piece of chalk the Great Basin of western America, indicating the course they would follow across the plains and into the West.

Another church member, Hopkins C. Pendar, reported that "Joseph Smith just before he was killed, made a sketch of the future home of the Saints in the Rocky Mountains and their route or road to that country as he had seen [it] in vision; a map or drawing of it."

Mosiah Hancock wrote in his journal about Joseph Smith visiting his father, Levi's, home, just prior to his demise in Carthage. Mosiah writes, ". . . the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter shop and stood by the turning lathe I went and got my map for him. 'Now,' said he, 'I will show you the travels of this people.' He then showed our travels thru Iowa, and said, 'Here you will make a place for the winter; and here you will travel west until you come to the valley of the Great Salt Lake! You will build cities to the North and to the South, and to the East and to the West; and you will become a great and wealthy people in that land.'"

Wilford Woodruff, Conference Report, April 1898, p.57
Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith (Aug. 6, 1842.) (Millennial Star, Vol. xix., page 630)
"The Life Story of Mosiah Lyman Hancock"
E. Cecil McGavin, "Nauvoo the Beautiful" (Salt Lake City, 1946)
Hyrum L. Andrus, BYU Studies, Vol. 2, No. 2, p.14

A tip of the hat goes to http://moroni10.com for gathering these.http://moroni10.com/mormon_history/jose ... tains.html

I've got more quotes on this, as well as some confirming revelation to some of the individual saints while they were still back east. I have put some of them up on the forum in the past.

Thanks again for finding this. It helps.

Are you aware of any other source documentation from 1834, or even later but looking back to 1834, that supports Joseph saying the bit about the Rocky Mountains then? The earliest I can find anything about it is early 1840's. Thanks.

[kirtland r.m.]

I've always liked this quote, but have some confusion on its source. It's from Woodruff's book the History of Zion's Camp, which he commenced in Sep. 28, 1882. The thing is, it is cited as if it were a quote from Joseph Smith during the camp on Sun. 27th April, 1834 (referring probably from his extensive journals?).

The closest thing I can find in his journals regarding it was in the context of speaking about Zelph on May 1834:

Zelph was a large thick set man and a man of God he was a warrior under the great prophet ^Onandagus^ that was known from the hill Camorah ^or east sea^ to the Rocky mountains. The above knowledge Joseph receieved in a vision

And I can't find anything like it on Joseph Smith Papers either. In fact, the earliest remarks from Joseph about anyone going to the Rocky Mountains are in 1843.

Any idea where that quote is actually from? Or is it an amalgamation of Woodruff's journal and his own memories? Just thought you might know.

Hey Dusty, here is a little more info. for you, Wilford Woodruff gave the following account: "On Sunday night (April 26, 1834) the Prophet called on all who held the Priesthood to gather into the little log school house they had there. It was a small house, perhaps 14 feet square. But it held the whole of the Priesthood of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who were then in the town of Kirtland, and who had gathered together to go off in Zion's camp. That was the first time I ever saw Oliver Cowdery, or heard him speak; the first time I ever saw Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, and the two Pratts, and Orson Hyde and many others... when we got together the Prophet called upon the Elders of Israel with him to bear testimony of this work. Those that I have named spoke, and a good many that I have not named, bore their testimonies.

"When they got through the Prophet said, 'Brethren I have been very much edified and instructed in your testimonies here tonight, but I want to say to you before the Lord, that you know no more concerning the destinies of this Church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother's lap. You don't comprehend it.'

"I was rather surprised. He said 'it is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight, but this Church will fill North and South America, it will fill the world.' Among other things he said, 'it will fill the Rocky Mountains. There will be tens of thousands of Latter-day Saints who will be gathered in the Rocky Mountains, and there they will open the door for the establishing of the Gospel among the Lamanites, who will receive the Gospel and their endowments and the blessings of God. This people will go into the Rocky Mountains; they will there build temples to the Most High. They will raise up a posterity there, and the Latter-day Saints who dwell in these mountains will stand in the flesh until the coming of the Son of Man. The Son of Man will come to them while in the Rocky Mountains."

On August 6, 1842, Joseph Smith wrote: "I had a conversation with a number of brethren in the shade of the building on the subject of our persecutions in Missouri and the constant annoyance which has followed us since we were driven from that state. I prophesied that the Saints would continue to suffer much affliction and would be driven to the Rocky Mountains, many would apostatize, others would be put to death by our persecutors or lose their lives in consequence of exposure to disease, and some of you will live to go and assist in making settlements and build cities and see the Saints become a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains."

There are also recollections by other church members of Joseph mapping the path the pioneers would take to the Salt Lake Valley. For example, George H. Goddard, a Mormon Pioneer, testified that he was present in the Nauvoo Masonic Hall when Joseph Smith drew a map on the floor with a piece of chalk the Great Basin of western America, indicating the course they would follow across the plains and into the West.

Another church member, Hopkins C. Pendar, reported that "Joseph Smith just before he was killed, made a sketch of the future home of the Saints in the Rocky Mountains and their route or road to that country as he had seen [it] in vision; a map or drawing of it."

Mosiah Hancock wrote in his journal about Joseph Smith visiting his father, Levi's, home, just prior to his demise in Carthage. Mosiah writes, ". . . the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter shop and stood by the turning lathe I went and got my map for him. 'Now,' said he, 'I will show you the travels of this people.' He then showed our travels thru Iowa, and said, 'Here you will make a place for the winter; and here you will travel west until you come to the valley of the Great Salt Lake! You will build cities to the North and to the South, and to the East and to the West; and you will become a great and wealthy people in that land.'"

Wilford Woodruff, Conference Report, April 1898, p.57
Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith (Aug. 6, 1842.) (Millennial Star, Vol. xix., page 630)
"The Life Story of Mosiah Lyman Hancock"
E. Cecil McGavin, "Nauvoo the Beautiful" (Salt Lake City, 1946)
Hyrum L. Andrus, BYU Studies, Vol. 2, No. 2, p.14

A tip of the hat goes to http://moroni10.com for gathering these.http://moroni10.com/mormon_history/jose ... tains.html

I've got more quotes on this, as well as some confirming revelation to some of the individual saints while they were still back east. I have put some of them up on the forum in the past.

Thanks again for finding this. It helps.

Are you aware of any other source documentation from 1834, or even later but looking back to 1834, that supports Joseph saying the bit about the Rocky Mountains then? The earliest I can find anything about it is early 1840's. Thanks.

I will post more, but here is one of the first.

The first President of the Logan Temple was Merriner W. Merrill. He was chosen because a voice had spoken to John Taylor telling him to call Merriner to that calling. In 1889 Brother Merrill was chosen to become one of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. President Merrill lived at Richmond, where he had seven wives, and eventually forty six children.
As a child and a non member of the church he had had this experience.

As a boy of only nine(as I said, he was a non member, but would become a future Apostle) growing up in New Brunswick, Canada, Marriner Wood Merrill experienced the first of many spiritual events in his life. He beheld a vision of his future as a member of the restored Church. Although he did not understand the things he saw, he later realized that he had been shown the prophets Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the journey of the Saints to Utah in covered wagons, vehicles that were unknown to him at the time of the vision, and some of his friends with more than one wife. So strong an impression did this last sight have upon him that he asked his mother why plurality of wives was not practiced as in biblical times. She tried to probe into the origin of his question, but because a voice had instructed him to maintain secrecy, he could not tell her of the vision.https://rsc.byu.edu/prophets-apostles-l ... od-merrill

[kirtland r.m.]

n 1842, Orson Hyde, of the Twelve Apostles, wrote of the following:

"We were in council with Brother Joseph almost every day for weeks; said Brother Joseph in one of those councils, 'There is something going to happen; I don't know what it is, but the Lord bids me to hasten and give you your endowment before the Temple is finished.' He conducted us through every ordinance of the holy priesthood, and when he had gone through with all the ordinance he rejoiced very much, and said, 'Now if they kill me, you have got all the keys, and all the ordinances, and you can confer them upon others, and the hosts of Satan will not be able to tear down the kingdom as fast you will be able to build it up'; and now, said he, 'On your shoulders will the responsibility of leading this people rest.'"

4 May 1842, Joseph recorded:

"I spent the day in the upper part of the store...in council with [seven brethren], instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the Ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles by which any one is enabled to secure the fullness of those blessings which have been prepared for the Church of the First Born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the eternal worlds.... The communications I made to this council were of things spiritual, and to be received only by the spiritual minded: and there was nothing made known to these men but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive, and a proper place is prepared to communicate them, even to the weakest of the Saints; therefore let the Saints be diligent in building the Temple."
Sources, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 651. History of the Church, Volume 5:1-2

[Telavian]

Orson Hyde is frankly a prolific fabricator and every statement of his should be avoided if possible.
Most of church history is incredibly suspect because it is almost all hearsay.

Of course, there is a lot of value in things however on numerous occasions leaders have gone back and "corrected" the history in order to fit the current narrative.
We actually have seen that with the book Saints by the LDS church. In several cases they whitewash the history or are downright dishonest.
However, people will reference that book like it is God's own voice.

[kirtland r.m.]

Orson Hyde is frankly a prolific fabricator and every statement of his should be avoided if possible.
Most of church history is incredibly suspect because it is almost all hearsay.

Of course, there is a lot of value in things however on numerous occasions leaders have gone back and "corrected" the history in order to fit the current narrative.
We actually have seen that with the book Saints by the LDS church. In several cases they whitewash the history or are downright dishonest.
However, people will reference that book like it is God's own voice.

Well Telavian, I am glad you are an expert at debunking early church leaders testimonies. By their fruits ye shall know them as the Lord has said. You mention Orson Hyde as if you are truly an expert. I'll make you a deal, why don't you head off to Israel as he did and fulfill a mission traveling without purse or script, taking the same route and transportation as he did, and when you get back we'll talk more. And by the way, that is just for starters. When you do all that, and still call him " a prolific fabricator" we can talk more. Go ahead, get started right away with the same notice he had. Be sure to get back with me, I will be right here waiting patiently.

[Telavian]

Well Telavian, I am glad you are an expert at debunking early church leaders testimonies. By their fruits ye shall know them as the Lord has said. You mention Orson Hyde as if you are truly an expert. I'll make you a deal, why don't you head off to Israel as he did and fulfill a mission traveling without purse or script, taking the same route and transportation as he did, and when you get back we'll talk more. And by the way, that is just for starters. When you do all that, and still call him " a prolific fabricator" we can talk more. Go ahead, get started right away with the same notice he had. Be sure to get back with me, I will be right here waiting patiently.

Are you suggesting that because someone is called to missionary work then they can no longer lie?
You may not care for truth however I certainly do.

[Being There]

Orson Hyde is frankly a prolific fabricator and every statement of his should be avoided if possible.
Most of church history is incredibly suspect because it is almost all hearsay.

Of course, there is a lot of value in things however on numerous occasions leaders have gone back and "corrected" the history in order to fit the current narrative.
We actually have seen that with the book Saints by the LDS church. In several cases they whitewash the history or are downright dishonest.
However, people will reference that book like it is God's own voice.

pay no mind to kirtland - and most all other TBM -
that all they know and parrot and post,
is their altered and modified church history -
and toot their horn about - (The Drunkards of Ephraim Isa.28 - church leaders)
and their "past glories" - of times that have long been gone in the church -
fulfilling Isaiah

"past glories"

Isaiah 28
1 Woe to the garlands of glory
of the drunkards of Ephraim!
Their crowning splendor has become as fading wreaths
on the heads of the opulent overcome with wine.

Ephraim’s chief sins of pride and drunkenness catch up with Israel’s birthright tribe
in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment.
Instead of acknowledging current inconvenient truths,
the people of Ephraim look back on past glories earned in more righteous times as if they still apply today.

Ephraim’s self-deception, stemming from intoxication with “wine” at the highest levels,
compounds the hard times that lie ahead (v 7; Isaiah 56:10-12).

[Dusty Wanderer]

Orson Hyde is frankly a prolific fabricator and every statement of his should be avoided if possible.
Most of church history is incredibly suspect because it is almost all hearsay.

Of course, there is a lot of value in things however on numerous occasions leaders have gone back and "corrected" the history in order to fit the current narrative.
We actually have seen that with the book Saints by the LDS church. In several cases they whitewash the history or are downright dishonest.
However, people will reference that book like it is God's own voice.

If you are referring to his account many years after that there was an earthquake at Winter Quarters, marking the decision to reconstitute the First Presidency, then I would agree. He did seem to be in error according to W. Woodruff and some others.

However, that's one. Hardly "prolific" and now I'm curious. Can you point to any further fabrications?

[Telavian]

If you are referring to his account many years after that there was an earthquake at Winter Quarters, marking the decision to reconstitute the First Presidency, then I would agree. He did seem to be in error according to W. Woodruff and some others.

However, that's one. Hardly "prolific" and now I'm curious. Can you point to any further fabrications?

He wrote about Brigham Young's transfiguration in first person however that event never happened and Orson was not even in Nauvoo at the time according to his own journal and that of others. He actually returned to Nauvoo 5 days after the event.
He repeated this lie on numerous other occasions likely to bolster Brigham's opinion of him. Every time the lie grew. However there is not a single piece of evidence to suggest the transfiguration ever happened.

He also testified that he began to weep uncontrollably while he was in Boston and didn't know why. It was then linked of course to the death of Joseph.
A later story of his, which seems to contradict the weeping, was that at the time of the death of Joseph he felt hands on his face through a newspaper he was reading and then knew Joseph was dead and didn't need "to worry about the plight of the Saints".

The earthquake story where Orson for some reason immediately knew the epicenter of the earthquake.
D. Michael Quinn listed numerous lies or extreme fabrications in one of his books I think. He certainly didn't have positive things to say about Orson.

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-3-no-2-2002/ors ... ns-learned

[kirtland r.m.]

Well Telavian, I am glad you are an expert at debunking early church leaders testimonies. By their fruits ye shall know them as the Lord has said. You mention Orson Hyde as if you are truly an expert. I'll make you a deal, why don't you head off to Israel as he did and fulfill a mission traveling without purse or script, taking the same route and transportation as he did, and when you get back we'll talk more. And by the way, that is just for starters. When you do all that, and still call him " a prolific fabricator" we can talk more. Go ahead, get started right away with the same notice he had. Be sure to get back with me, I will be right here waiting patiently.

Are you suggesting that because someone is called to missionary work then they can no longer lie?
You may not care for truth however I certainly do.

You know what I am suggesting. Those who freely give massive amounts of time, talents, and means, are not often in your own words, "a prolific fabricator". Let's not play stupid games please.

[Dusty Wanderer]

pay no mind to kirtland - and most all other TBM -
that all they know and parrot and post,
is their altered and modified church history -
and toot their horn about - (The Drunkards of Ephraim Isa.28 - church leaders)
and their "past glories" - of times that have long been gone in the church -
fulfilling Isaiah

BT, we see eye to eye on many things, but I don’t like how you treat Kirtland RM here. Remarks like these sometimes feel like you’re projecting a bitterness you have for the institution and any past wrongs onto real breathing individuals.

I appreciate his posts. At times they challenge my current positions, causing me to re-review material I already have, etc. Sometimes they even cause me to ask questions.

Since I first started coming here, I’ve seen a decline in that challenging voice (and no, Im not referring to the trolls). Surely you don’t want to find yourself in an echo chamber?

[Dusty Wanderer]

If you are referring to his account many years after that there was an earthquake at Winter Quarters, marking the decision to reconstitute the First Presidency, then I would agree. He did seem to be in error according to W. Woodruff and some others.

However, that's one. Hardly "prolific" and now I'm curious. Can you point to any further fabrications?

He wrote about Brigham Young's transfiguration in first person however that event never happened and Orson was not even in Nauvoo at the time according to his own journal and that of others. He actually returned to Nauvoo 5 days after the event.
He repeated this lie on numerous other occasions likely to bolster Brigham's opinion of him. Every time the lie grew. However there is not a single piece of evidence to suggest the transfiguration ever happened.

He also testified that he began to weep uncontrollably while he was in Boston and didn't know why. It was then linked of course to the death of Joseph.
A later story of his, which seems to contradict the weeping, was that at the time of the death of Joseph he felt hands on his face through a newspaper he was reading and then knew Joseph was dead and didn't need "to worry about the plight of the Saints".

The earthquake story where Orson for some reason immediately knew the epicenter of the earthquake.
D. Michael Quinn listed numerous lies or extreme fabrications in one of his books I think. He certainly didn't have positive things to say about Orson.

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-3-no-2-2002/ors ... ns-learned

Ahh, yes, familiar with the transfiguration accounts, but overlooked that specific Hyde detail. The linked article was interesting, too. Thanks.

As I’ve thought about why Hyde said some of the things he did, I wonder if it was rooted in his deep loyalty to them, even if misguided at times. I’m certain O. Hyde felt a deep bond with those he served with in the England mission and elsewhere. However, as disappointing as some of that is to discover, it doesn’t seem right to swing the pendulum as far the other way and try and strip a man of all his faithfulness and sacrifices either.

[Telavian]

You know what I am suggesting. Those who freely give massive amounts of time, talents, and means, are not often in your own words, "a prolific fabricator". Let's not play stupid games please.

Actually the more "time, talent, and means" someone invests in something the more reason they have to actually make sure their position in the hierarchy is maintained or strengthened.

If you actually analyze things then most general authorities embellish their talks, with some doing so greatly, for dramatic effect.
The most serious was Paul H. Dunn, who was in the first quorum of seventy and even the presidency. He related amazing experiences in general conference and firesides that were often times miraculous.

However, after looking at the experiences it became clear that they were literally not true. He also used these to promote himself and his businesses. After enough evidence emerged he was released from the seventy and I believe, faced church disciple. During his scandal though, the LDS church leadership actively tried to control all the news about it and eliminate any information at all from coming out. Paul did defend himself by saying lying and embellishing stories was actually very common. The issue was he just went too far.

Another example is Devin Durrant, who spoke in general conference about pondering the scriptures, and coined the phrase 'ponderize'. This was fine however it quickly came to light that he had previously setup a website focused on this term and was selling merchandise.

President Nelson himself lied more than once in talks. He spoke about giving a Book of Mormon to fellow surgeon during the Korean War. This eventually led to the surgeons baptism along with his family. This story was related in talks, ensign articles, and appeared in biographies. However, it never happened and was a huge embellishment. The story was eventually changed to be more accuate.

President Nelson also lied about an experience where he was flying, an engine caught fire, and he was very calm. There was very minor mechanical trouble only and the plane was never in danger of crashing. The FAA records would indicate if an engine caught fire and they don't.

President Nelson also lied about the experience he had about being robbed at gunpoint. The police report would indicate something major happened however they don't.

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/l ... n-scandal/
https://www.truthandtransparency.org/ne ... index.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... proven_to/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... n_robbery/

[Telavian]

Ahh, yes, familiar with the transfiguration accounts, but overlooked that specific Hyde detail. The linked article was interesting, too. Thanks.

As I’ve thought about why Hyde said some of the things he did, I wonder if it was rooted in his deep loyalty to them, even if misguided at times. I’m certain O. Hyde felt a deep bond with those he served with in the England mission and elsewhere. However, as disappointing as some of that is to discover, it doesn’t seem right to swing the pendulum as far the other way and try and strip a man of all his faithfulness and sacrifices either.

I do agree. There is good and bad in everyone. I believe Brigham ran a tight ship and loyalty to Brigham meant loyalty to God. This is why the transfiguration story came out of nowhere and then everyone started testifying that they were there personally and saw him glow like fire and such.

As I have studied church history more I have realized that it is not always black and white. A lot of it is one sided or certainly incomplete. I think this is human nature to a degree. For instance, Nephi wrote 1 Nephi and so we have nothing negative about him. I would think if Sam wrote it then the story would be slightly different.

With that said, Orson Hyde did do a lot of right things and those should be celebrated. However we must always realize that just because someone is "good" or did "good" things that doesn't mean we should overlook the things that are not "good".

[Dusty Wanderer]

Ahh, yes, familiar with the transfiguration accounts, but overlooked that specific Hyde detail. The linked article was interesting, too. Thanks.

As I’ve thought about why Hyde said some of the things he did, I wonder if it was rooted in his deep loyalty to them, even if misguided at times. I’m certain O. Hyde felt a deep bond with those he served with in the England mission and elsewhere. However, as disappointing as some of that is to discover, it doesn’t seem right to swing the pendulum as far the other way and try and strip a man of all his faithfulness and sacrifices either.

I do agree. There is good and bad in everyone. I believe Brigham ran a tight ship and loyalty to Brigham meant loyalty to God. This is why the transfiguration story came out of nowhere and then everyone started testifying that they were there personally and saw him glow like fire and such.

As I have studied church history more I have realized that it is not always black and white. A lot of it is one sided or certainly incomplete. I think this is human nature to a degree. For instance, Nephi wrote 1 Nephi and so we have nothing negative about him. I would think if Sam wrote it then the story would be slightly different.

With that said, Orson Hyde did do a lot of right things and those should be celebrated. However we must always realize that just because someone is "good" or did "good" things that doesn't mean we should overlook the things that are not "good".

Agree.

Human nature cuts through time as one of the only constants. Your contemporary examples of story-telling in the previous post begs the question of whether they were that much different from us. If not, then there are bound to be story-tellers back then, too.

I wonder how much of it is a combination of laziness vs. undisciplined, vs. agenda-driven on our parts. A one-dimensional character is so much easier to factor into whatever we’re trying to determine, or make whatever case with.

Then there’s those that suppose that since a record is silent about a subject’s mistakes, that must mean they didn’t have any. Unfortunately, I think this also leads some to go hunting for mistakes, and ironically, end up fabricating some of their own stories along the way.

Overall, leaves the retrospective truth-seeker quite a mess to futilely sort through.

[kirtland r.m.]

Ahh, yes, familiar with the transfiguration accounts, but overlooked that specific Hyde detail. The linked article was interesting, too. Thanks.

As I’ve thought about why Hyde said some of the things he did, I wonder if it was rooted in his deep loyalty to them, even if misguided at times. I’m certain O. Hyde felt a deep bond with those he served with in the England mission and elsewhere. However, as disappointing as some of that is to discover, it doesn’t seem right to swing the pendulum as far the other way and try and strip a man of all his faithfulness and sacrifices either.

I do agree. There is good and bad in everyone. I believe Brigham ran a tight ship and loyalty to Brigham meant loyalty to God. This is why the transfiguration story came out of nowhere and then everyone started testifying that they were there personally and saw him glow like fire and such.

As I have studied church history more I have realized that it is not always black and white. A lot of it is one sided or certainly incomplete. I think this is human nature to a degree. For instance, Nephi wrote 1 Nephi and so we have nothing negative about him. I would think if Sam wrote it then the story would be slightly different.

With that said, Orson Hyde did do a lot of right things and those should be celebrated. However we must always realize that just because someone is "good" or did "good" things that doesn't mean we should overlook the things that are not "good".

So all you have shown so far is that you can look up anti Mormon authors. Most of the Apostles had returned to Nauvoo by Aug. 6, 1844. Two days before the above mentioned meeting. Prove me wrong.

[Telavian]

So all you have shown so far is that you can look up anti Mormon authors. Most of the Apostles had returned to Nauvoo by Aug. 6, 1844. Two days before the above mentioned meeting. Prove me wrong.

Again, you are not using logic. There is no such thing as anti-mormon. There is truth and falsehoods.
You are also ignoring everything I wrote because you don't like it however it shows quite clearly my point.

We are also not talking about "most of the apostles" now are we?
I also have no obligation to prove your point. In a logical discussion you have that obligation.
It also is apparent that even if I did you would ignore that and switch the subject to something else.

If you are no longer interested in continuing, then I can understand.