Your Martin Luther Moment. Share concerns w bishop about Nelson being skull & bones or other revelations? How did it go?

[Pahoran]

Interested to hear anyone that has shared concerns with their Bishops or other leaders about crazy things happening lately in the church such as learning we have Skull & Bones members leading the church, among other things.

Would be interested in hearing the response you are getting from sharing your concerns. Did you get backlash? Any positive responses?

Any ideas on how to share some of these "hidden things" with more people and leaders in a more effective way and not getting immediately written off.

If important and relevant truths are censored, then we are on a path to destruction. So, seems like now could be local freedom fighters Abinidi moment (at least the truth telling part but hopefully not the burning at the stake part).

[tribrac]

I propose a little experiment....

Go talk to your bishop and tell him you think you might be trapped in the wrong body.

Move.

Go talk to your new bishop and tell him you think church leadership might be leading people astray.

Report how those conversations are similar, how they are different.

[endlessQuestions]

I have.

It went well.

Tonight I’m telling him about the email I sent today to approximately 300 General Authorities, auxiliary leaders, and their support staff.

My bishop is a good man. I’m grateful for him.

EDIT: Just talked to my bishop and let him know what I did today, and he just asked to see a copy of what I'd sent, asked for clarification regarding exactly what level of "Church leadership" I was referring to, and said we can catch up on everything on Sunday (I'm his Ward Clerk, so we talk pretty much every Sunday).

I forwarded him a copy of what I sent just now.

[BigT]

I have.

It went well.

Tonight I’m telling him about the email I sent today approximately 300 General Authorities, auxiliary leaders, and their support staff.

My bishop is a good man. I’m grateful for him.

Uh, what? Could you elaborate?

[endlessQuestions]

I have.

It went well.

Tonight I’m telling him about the email I sent today approximately 300 General Authorities, auxiliary leaders, and their support staff.

My bishop is a good man. I’m grateful for him.

Uh, what? Could you elaborate?

You left us too early on the "Apostle or Aristocrat" thread, BigT. We miss you!

Here's a link to the page that contains the information and request I sent our leaders:

viewtopic.php?p=1345929#p1345929

[cwass]

Interested to hear anyone that has shared concerns with their Bishops or other leaders about crazy things happening lately in the church such as learning we have Skull & Bones members leading the church, among other things.

Would be interested in hearing the response you are getting from sharing your concerns. Did you get backlash? Any positive responses?

Any ideas on how to share some of these "hidden things" with more people and leaders in a more effective way and not getting immediately written off.

If important and relevant truths are censored, then we are on a path to destruction. So, seems like now could be local freedom fighters Abinidi moment (at least the truth telling part but hopefully not the burning at the stake part).

I've spoken to my leaders, ward and stake president.after my initial concerns about stuff early in the pandemic. I don't think it was a Martin Luther moment....but My stake president ended up coming to our building ( I was in the bishopric) and talked to me for a couple of hours. That conversation was difficult because at the end of the day he was confused about the pandemic and he said when he is confused he always tries to follow what the brethren recommend. That approach has always worked for him.
I told him not to get any shots because based on my personal experience and my love and concern for him and his family ( we have kids that are friends) that they were not "safe and effective". He asked if I thought I thought I was smarter than the apostles.
I said that I'm not smarter but that my experience in the hospital talking privately with hundreds of people taught me that people are getting injured and they can't even tell the doctor because they aren't listening. Hopefully if needs be I can still have a Martin Luther moment because hopefully he still respects me enough to value my opinion. But I don't know that.

[endlessQuestions]

Interested to hear anyone that has shared concerns with their Bishops or other leaders about crazy things happening lately in the church such as learning we have Skull & Bones members leading the church, among other things.

Would be interested in hearing the response you are getting from sharing your concerns. Did you get backlash? Any positive responses?

Any ideas on how to share some of these "hidden things" with more people and leaders in a more effective way and not getting immediately written off.

If important and relevant truths are censored, then we are on a path to destruction. So, seems like now could be local freedom fighters Abinidi moment (at least the truth telling part but hopefully not the burning at the stake part).

I've spoken to my leaders, ward and stake president.after my initial concerns about stuff early in the pandemic. I don't think it was a Martin Luther moment....but My stake president ended up coming to our building ( I was in the bishopric) and talked to me for a couple of hours. That conversation was difficult because at the end of the day he was confused about the pandemic and he said when he is confused he always tries to follow what the brethren recommend. That approach has always worked for him.
I told him not to get any shots because based on my personal experience and my love and concern for him and his family ( we have kids that are friends) that they were not "safe and effective". He asked if I thought I thought I was smarter than the apostles.
I said that I'm not smarter but that my experience in the hospital talking privately with hundreds of people taught me that people are getting injured and they can't even tell the doctor because they aren't listening. Hopefully if needs be I can still have a Martin Luther moment because hopefully he still respects me enough to value my opinion. But I don't know that.

It's so helpful to hear from other people who have chosen to have these difficult conversations. Thank you for your courage.

[Pahoran]

So in my decades of adult church membership I really only felt the need once to go to my Bishop to share my feelings about the dealings of the church.

Around the time of the 2020 election, the beginning of rampant censorship of the tech companies, the debanking of political enemies of babylon, and as I was just coming to be aware that basically all banks, media companies and corporations in general were in on this covid hoax and the general destruction of freedom, I decided to try my best to stop using services from any of these conspiring companies.

It was then that I also found out about the churches holdings in Pfizer, Google, Facebook, and so forth. Basically, every company that I recently learned were integral in the takeover of America it seemed as though the church had ownership in those companies.

So, I went to my Bishop with full confidence that my concern would be met with care and shared up the line and taken seriously. Of course, that did not happen. I was asked by my Bishop if I have been reading my scriptures regularly. He said that we need to stop getting caught up in the news and focus in the important things.

Now, two years later, my view of the leadership of the church has completely changed where I almost feel like local leadership may sometimes be more like spies than advocates for local members.

The last couple weeks and learning about how pervasive 3 letter agencies influence are in the church I feel almost like I have to focus much more on being "wise as a serpent" regarding what I share of my feelings with leaders or I risk getting put on a list

After sharing my feelings with my Bishop and receiving more of a chastisement rather than concern I feel like may have been one of the biggest letdowns of my life in the church. It changed so much of how I began to see my relationship is to the church. I felt more like I was looked on more as a pawn to be controlled rather than an equally important member of the kingdom with valid and important ideas to share.

Of course, since then, it has one letdown after another in the church. The silver lining is that I don't know if I can go much lower now after experiencing the last few years and realizing I was committed to something that is in reality so much different than what I thought it was.

I am still trying to figure out the best path forward in sharing my my new host of concerns in an effective way that can influence people without just being judged, censored or reported as an apostate.

[Pahoran]

[quote
I told him not to get any shots because based on my personal experience and my love and concern
I said that I'm not smarter but that my experience in the hospital talking privately with hundreds of people taught me that people are getting injured and they can't even tell the doctor because they aren't listening. Hopefully if needs be I can still have a Martin Luther moment because hopefully he still respects me enough to value my opinion. But I don't know that.
[/quote]

Thanks for sharing that. I think it is very obvious that local leaders feel more pressure from above them than from the local members. So, it seems unlikely to make much of a difference by talking with local leaders, but I am glad you tried. It is an awkward and difficult position to be in.

[Niemand]

What's the point in speaking with local leaders other than getting yourself kicked out?

[cab]

Interested to hear anyone that has shared concerns with their Bishops or other leaders about crazy things happening lately in the church such as learning we have Skull & Bones members leading the church, among other things.

Would be interested in hearing the response you are getting from sharing your concerns. Did you get backlash? Any positive responses?

Any ideas on how to share some of these "hidden things" with more people and leaders in a more effective way and not getting immediately written off.

If important and relevant truths are censored, then we are on a path to destruction. So, seems like now could be local freedom fighters Abinidi moment (at least the truth telling part but hopefully not the burning at the stake part).

I have sat with my good Bishop on several occasions in the past year (after requesting that he do my temple recommend interview and during tithing settlement) and expressed the following:

1. My deep concern that we, as a people from top to bottom, are perhaps not as “true” as we give ourselves credit for. That I have a very hard time reconciling the gospel and doctrine taught in the Book of Mormon with what I see taught at all our pulpits, including General Conference. That it seems that we are to seek, above all things to be reconciled to God and to be reborn spiritually of him, but that I don’t hear this message encapsulated in this so called “covenant path”…. And that I don’t believe in our tradition that we are somehow immune from being led astray to some degree…

2. That I see the scriptures speak of paying tithing on “interest” and “increase”, but not on “income”. That I see our first obligation is to consecrate our funds to the poor and that tithing seems to come and interest/increase AFTER such funds have been allocated for that poor… and therefore I may interpret my obligation of tithing much differently than most members do.

3. That my conscience cannot accept certain things about our mainstream church history narrative, specifically that polygamy was commanded of God and that Joseph must have lied about his 30+ wives in his repeated denials. That I lean towards Joseph having never taught it or practiced it, and that even if he did, I believe it was a huge mistake with consequences that stay with us to today…

Luckily I still have my Temple recommend and have still been allowed to baptize one of my children and advance two others in their priesthood office ordinations in the past few months…. AND added bonus, I haven’t had a calling for over 8 months

[BigT]

You left us too early on the "Apostle or Aristocrat" thread, BigT. We miss you!

Here's a link to the page that contains the information and request I sent our leaders:

viewtopic.php?p=1345929#p1345929

I didn’t leave, I just went silent. I saw and read your post yesterday as I was catching up on the thread.

[BigT]

Last June, our newly-called bishop had a pride flag put on his front lawn (people will put one out for you), so, no, I’m not going to talk to him about my feelings about the church.

[Robin Hood]

How about this for a corker!
It's not secret combinations (Skull & Bones etc) infiltrating the church, it's the church infiltrating the secret combinations!
Someone actually said that.

[endlessQuestions]

How about this for a corker!
It's secret combinations (Skull & Bones etc) infiltrating the church, it's the church infiltrating the secret combinations!
Someone actually said that.

I’ve had that conversation with myself many times.

It never ends well.

[Reluctant Watchman]

So in my decades of adult church membership I really only felt the need once to go to my Bishop to share my feelings about the dealings of the church.

Around the time of the 2020 election, the beginning of rampant censorship of the tech companies, the debanking of political enemies of babylon, and as I was just coming to be aware that basically all banks, media companies and corporations in general were in on this covid hoax and the general destruction of freedom, I decided to try my best to stop using services from any of these conspiring companies.

It was then that I also found out about the churches holdings in Pfizer, Google, Facebook, and so forth. Basically, every company that I recently learned were integral in the takeover of America it seemed as though the church had ownership in those companies.

So, I went to my Bishop with full confidence that my concern would be met with care and shared up the line and taken seriously. Of course, that did not happen. I was asked by my Bishop if I have been reading my scriptures regularly. He said that we need to stop getting caught up in the news and focus in the important things.

Now, two years later, my view of the leadership of the church has completely changed where I almost feel like local leadership may sometimes be more like spies than advocates for local members.

The last couple weeks and learning about how pervasive 3 letter agencies influence are in the church I feel almost like I have to focus much more on being "wise as a serpent" regarding what I share of my feelings with leaders or I risk getting put on a list

After sharing my feelings with my Bishop and receiving more of a chastisement rather than concern I feel like may have been one of the biggest letdowns of my life in the church. It changed so much of how I began to see my relationship is to the church. I felt more like I was looked on more as a pawn to be controlled rather than an equally important member of the kingdom with valid and important ideas to share.

Of course, since then, it has one letdown after another in the church. The silver lining is that I don't know if I can go much lower now after experiencing the last few years and realizing I was committed to something that is in reality so much different than what I thought it was.

I am still trying to figure out the best path forward in sharing my my new host of concerns in an effective way that can influence people without just being judged, censored or reported as an apostate.

When we begin to study Christ’s words, and how he taught us to question everything from any person, even our own vain ambitions, we begin to see how beautiful His doctrine really is. I love Him even more for opening my eyes. This part of His sermon becomes far more relevant:

3 Nephi 12

10 And blessed are all they who are persecuted for my name’s sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 And blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake;
12 For ye shall have great joy and be exceedingly glad, for great shall be your reward in heaven; for so persecuted they the prophets who were before you.

44 But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Last June, our newly-called bishop had a pride flag put on his front lawn (people will put one out for you), so, no, I’m not going to talk to him about my feelings about the church.

He must have watched the Alliance video from Deseret Book.

[Reluctant Watchman]

How about this for a corker!
It's secret combinations (Skull & Bones etc) infiltrating the church, it's the church infiltrating the secret combinations!
Someone actually said that.

In their minds, there’s no other way to explain it. A person they’ve held on a pedestal for so long certainly couldn’t be leading us to the slaughter. But…. But… “they can never lead us astray.”

[Reluctant Watchman]

My own personal experience of asking questions didn’t go well. (Actually… it did go well, I awoke to the fallen nature of the LDS church.) I was asked (while serving as a high councilor) by my stake president: “Will you sustain me and your bishop in wearing a mask?” No… no I wouldn’t, I asked to be released. He was going to remove my temple recommend if I didn’t. He chose his words carefully. What a crappy way to wield whatever supposed authority he had. Talk about unrighteous dominion.

Several months later I shared a video with my stake president from a nurse where he was in tears recounting how his nursing home patients were falling like flies after the shot, within just weeks. He (the nurse) knew it was killing people. And the response from my stake pres? I was called to repentance (twice in fact in the same email) for even questioning the “safe and effective” claim from the brethren. He thought I was calling the FP “lairs” and “deceivers.” At the time, I just thought they were wrong… but it is clear today that they really are liars and deceivers.

So we left the church so we could keep the covenants we made to follow Christ’s gospel. I have to believe that any honest seeker of truth will realize that some of the most treacherous and deceptive doctrines are being flaunted as truth within the church.

Here’s another example I shared on a different thread about one man’s experience of questioning the brethren. This man in particular left his employment as a fire fighter due to the jab mandate:

Question asked:
"Did they actually kick people out for not supporting the jab or masking?"

Response, all from one person:
"We were kicked out because we publicly expressed our belief that church leadership, particularly the First Presidency and the Quorum of the 12 had blood on their hands for endorsing and promoting the vaccine, causing many members to take it when they wouldn't have otherwise. In particular, we refused to "sustain" them regarding that particular matter."

"If you keep quiet and don't cause a stir, they will let you stay. If try to do anything about it, and it questions leadership, you will be out like that."

"I guess I should add that I didn't do anything to lessen the blow, or delay, I didn't want to beat around the bush, I wanted my Bishop and Stake president to go over scriptures with me and really look at the matter, which at the time I thought they would have some respect for my position, as life long member, RM, etc, etc... but there was none of that, it was conform and sustain immediately or we will be forced to take action against you."

"My hope for anyone is that they will be courageous in what the spirit guides them to do. I felt guided to press the matter with my leaders. My mom felt guided to "stay in for now" which has become quite tedious to her of late. But that said, if don't answer the interview questions correctly, or don't raise your hand to sustain, or if you quietly represent a dissenting point of view, sooner or later you're gonna be out."

"My Stake President actually told me "It's so much better now! We don't have to use a disciplinary court, we can just remove membership directly if necessary." (I'm assuming this was in regards to him having his records removed voluntarily)

"It's an odd feeling at these moments when you realize how different you are from someone who grew up in the same tradition and culture. I thought my leaders believed as I did; if we could just get the core of things, we would agree, which of course, turned out to be a misconception. For me, this seems like the wheat and tares parable on display. Two different species growing together and hard to distinguish from one another, until harvest time, and the workers start the separating process."

[endlessQuestions]

How about this for a corker!
It's secret combinations (Skull & Bones etc) infiltrating the church, it's the church infiltrating the secret combinations!
Someone actually said that.

I’ve had that conversation with myself many times.

It never ends well.

Also, I'm appropriating your culture and stealing the word "corker".

[cwass]

My own personal experience of asking questions didn’t go well. (Actually… it did go well, I awoke to the fallen nature of the LDS church.) I was asked (while serving as a high councilor) by my stake president: “Will you sustain me and your bishop in wearing a mask?” No… no I wouldn’t, I asked to be released. He was going to remove my temple recommend if I didn’t. He chose his words carefully. What a crappy way to wield whatever supposed authority he had. Talk about unrighteous dominion.

Several months later I shared a video with my stake president from a nurse where he was in tears recounting how his nursing home patients were falling like flies after the shot, within just weeks. He (the nurse) knew it was killing people. And the response from my stake pres? I was called to repentance (twice in fact in the same email) for even questioning the “safe and effective” claim from the brethren. He thought I was calling the FP “lairs” and “deceivers.” At the time, I just thought they were wrong… but it is clear today that they really are liars and deceivers.

So we left the church so we could keep the covenants we made to follow Christ’s gospel. I have to believe that any honest seeker of truth will realize that some of the most treacherous and deceptive doctrines are being flaunted as truth within the church.

Here’s another example I shared on a different thread about one man’s experience of questioning the brethren. This man in particular left his employment as a fire fighter due to the jab mandate:

Question asked:
"Did they actually kick people out for not supporting the jab or masking?"

Response, all from one person:
"We were kicked out because we publicly expressed our belief that church leadership, particularly the First Presidency and the Quorum of the 12 had blood on their hands for endorsing and promoting the vaccine, causing many members to take it when they wouldn't have otherwise. In particular, we refused to "sustain" them regarding that particular matter."

"If you keep quiet and don't cause a stir, they will let you stay. If try to do anything about it, and it questions leadership, you will be out like that."

"I guess I should add that I didn't do anything to lessen the blow, or delay, I didn't want to beat around the bush, I wanted my Bishop and Stake president to go over scriptures with me and really look at the matter, which at the time I thought they would have some respect for my position, as life long member, RM, etc, etc... but there was none of that, it was conform and sustain immediately or we will be forced to take action against you."

"My hope for anyone is that they will be courageous in what the spirit guides them to do. I felt guided to press the matter with my leaders. My mom felt guided to "stay in for now" which has become quite tedious to her of late. But that said, if don't answer the interview questions correctly, or don't raise your hand to sustain, or if you quietly represent a dissenting point of view, sooner or later you're gonna be out."

"My Stake President actually told me "It's so much better now! We don't have to use a disciplinary court, we can just remove membership directly if necessary." (I'm assuming this was in regards to him having his records removed voluntarily)

"It's an odd feeling at these moments when you realize how different you are from someone who grew up in the same tradition and culture. I thought my leaders believed as I did; if we could just get the core of things, we would agree, which of course, turned out to be a misconception. For me, this seems like the wheat and tares parable on display. Two different species growing together and hard to distinguish from one another, until harvest time, and the workers start the separating process."

This is just me spit balling but what if you continued to go to church and continued to be a good person after they have purged you. That would seem to be the ultimate in humility as well as showing them that their attempts to control people could backfire on them.
Maybe even a bigger influence.

[Reluctant Watchman]

This is just me spit balling but what if you continued to go to church and continued to be a good person after they have purged you. That would seem to be the ultimate in humility as well as showing them that their attempts to control people could backfire on them.
Maybe even a bigger influence.

I’m not making the connection here. Why would I want to remain/attend a church that, IMO, has completely distorted the gospel and is in apostasy, and in which I cannot publicly voice my concerns without being disciplined? Humility is following Christ’s gospel as confirmed through the Holy Ghost. Humility is standing up for His teachings. Christ taught us to remove ourselves (pluck out) those who transgress. I can certainly associate with people in society whom I disagree with, but the church is leading the members in following satanic principles. To be “good global citizens” is evil.

I have friends who believe as I do (or close to what I do) who have felt prompted to stay. Me… not so much.

I created my website (www.reluctantwatchman.com) to voice my own opinions in a non-confrontational way, for my family to know where I’m at if they choose to read. My essays are not for the TBMs. My essays are for those who question what is going on and are doubting their faith in God and Christ. That is my circle of influence. The mind control the church has on the saints is extremely hard to break/overcome. Nearly impossible in some cases.

[iWriteStuff]

My own personal experience of asking questions didn’t go well. (Actually… it did go well, I awoke to the fallen nature of the LDS church.) I was asked (while serving as a high councilor) by my stake president: “Will you sustain me and your bishop in wearing a mask?” No… no I wouldn’t, I asked to be released. He was going to remove my temple recommend if I didn’t. He chose his words carefully. What a crappy way to wield whatever supposed authority he had. Talk about unrighteous dominion.

Several months later I shared a video with my stake president from a nurse where he was in tears recounting how his nursing home patients were falling like flies after the shot, within just weeks. He (the nurse) knew it was killing people. And the response from my stake pres? I was called to repentance (twice in fact in the same email) for even questioning the “safe and effective” claim from the brethren. He thought I was calling the FP “lairs” and “deceivers.” At the time, I just thought they were wrong… but it is clear today that they really are liars and deceivers.

So we left the church so we could keep the covenants we made to follow Christ’s gospel. I have to believe that any honest seeker of truth will realize that some of the most treacherous and deceptive doctrines are being flaunted as truth within the church.

Here’s another example I shared on a different thread about one man’s experience of questioning the brethren. This man in particular left his employment as a fire fighter due to the jab mandate:

Question asked:
"Did they actually kick people out for not supporting the jab or masking?"

Response, all from one person:
"We were kicked out because we publicly expressed our belief that church leadership, particularly the First Presidency and the Quorum of the 12 had blood on their hands for endorsing and promoting the vaccine, causing many members to take it when they wouldn't have otherwise. In particular, we refused to "sustain" them regarding that particular matter."

"If you keep quiet and don't cause a stir, they will let you stay. If try to do anything about it, and it questions leadership, you will be out like that."

"I guess I should add that I didn't do anything to lessen the blow, or delay, I didn't want to beat around the bush, I wanted my Bishop and Stake president to go over scriptures with me and really look at the matter, which at the time I thought they would have some respect for my position, as life long member, RM, etc, etc... but there was none of that, it was conform and sustain immediately or we will be forced to take action against you."

"My hope for anyone is that they will be courageous in what the spirit guides them to do. I felt guided to press the matter with my leaders. My mom felt guided to "stay in for now" which has become quite tedious to her of late. But that said, if don't answer the interview questions correctly, or don't raise your hand to sustain, or if you quietly represent a dissenting point of view, sooner or later you're gonna be out."

"My Stake President actually told me "It's so much better now! We don't have to use a disciplinary court, we can just remove membership directly if necessary." (I'm assuming this was in regards to him having his records removed voluntarily)

"It's an odd feeling at these moments when you realize how different you are from someone who grew up in the same tradition and culture. I thought my leaders believed as I did; if we could just get the core of things, we would agree, which of course, turned out to be a misconception. For me, this seems like the wheat and tares parable on display. Two different species growing together and hard to distinguish from one another, until harvest time, and the workers start the separating process."

This is just me spit balling but what if you continued to go to church and continued to be a good person after they have purged you. That would seem to be the ultimate in humility as well as showing them that their attempts to control people could backfire on them.
Maybe even a bigger influence.

In a certain sense, showing up is showing support. Same as paying tithing is a sign that you're ok with the money going to resorts, shopping malls, Pfizer stocks, and real estate purchases.

You get a choice in how you want to align yourself, and you make it daily. Christ, and most if not all his true messengers, stood outside the establishment (rather than in it) and called it for what it was. Then they weathered the consequences with unfaltering faithfulness. That is the price you pay for knowing the truth and standing behind it.

You can be told your job is to side with the brethren instead of the truth, but then which master are you really serving?

[Reluctant Watchman]

What's the point in speaking with local leaders other than getting yourself kicked out?

Maybe it’s to let the Lord know where you stand. I seem to recall something about candles, bushels, and candlesticks.

[Niemand]

What's the point in speaking with local leaders other than getting yourself kicked out?

Maybe it’s to let the Lord know where you stand. I seem to recall something about candles, bushels, and candlesticks.

It reminds me when I was at the pharmacy and said I happened to remark that I was creeped out by all the "vaccine" propaganda. She said I should go and speak to my doctor about the issue. I just replied, "What's the point? All he'll do is tell me is to get the thing."

You have to pick your battles. Me going into the doctor and bickering over his/her inassailable position is pointless. I can, however, talk to other people about it.

If I'd lost my calling during the lockdowns from speaking out about it, there would have been a number of things that I couldn't do. As in things that allowed me to inform others about the dangers and help those in distress.